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Post by super_realist on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 08:40

First topic message reminder :

Diggers wrote:On another note I’ve been teaching Spanish as part of my job this year, tricky when I don’t speak a word...or didn’t. Been using Duolingo for 3 weeks, still very early but amazing how quickly it helps you pick things up. Also asked the wife for some CD’s for Xmas to listen to on my commute. There is a Spanish guy who works for the premises team so when I feel a bit more confident Ill try some conversational Spanish with him.
Anyway, early but that’s my new year resolution, to follow it through and at least be competent, partly to help with my job and partly because Uve always wanted to learn a language, partly because I really think learning new stuff keeps your brain fresher.
Anyone else have something they really want to learn to do?


I'm not trying to be confrontational here Diggers, but how on earth can a school let someone without the skills in a subject to teach it? I can see how someone could blag teaching something like art, PE, English etc, but not a language. I suppose if it's at Primary Level you could teach counting to ten, asking where the railway station is etc.
I presume it's not secondary school?

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Post by raycastleunited on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 12:28

kwinigolfer wrote:
I see Wagner has left Oodersfield - seems genuine regret on both sides. Too bad, but hope we'll be playing them next year, maybe with Morris motoring for us.

He did a phenomenal job, shame he has left. From the tone of the press release I'm mystified why he has left.

Not sure where Huddersfield go from here. Big Sam?

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Post by Davie on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 12:37

Big Sam has ruled himself out - which almost certainly means he gets it!

Reading between the lines with Wagner, it sounds like he's mentally exhausted - possibly even on the verge of some sort of breakdown and said he wanted to quit at the end of the season to get his act together. After talks they decided it would be with immediate effect - maybe for his health's sake?

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Post by raycastleunited on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 13:58

Davie wrote:Big Sam has ruled himself out - which almost certainly means he gets it!

Reading between the lines with Wagner, it sounds like he's mentally exhausted - possibly even on the verge of some sort of breakdown and said he wanted to quit at the end of the season to get his act together. After talks they decided it would be with immediate effect - maybe for his health's sake?

Managing a premier league club must be like living under a microscope. And every week you get dissected by 50,000 people who think they could do a better job than you. Not many people could handle the pressure, I wouldn't do it.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 15:12

There are an awful lot worse jobs in the world. I'd rather be the manager of a Premier League club than a League Two club. At least you are very well rewarded, and the sacking, which is inevitable at most clubs, comes with a big fat pay-off. I guess pressure is what you choose to create, at the end of the day it's just a game.

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Post by JAS on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 16:11

Diggers wrote:There are an awful lot worse jobs in the world. I'd rather be the manager of a Premier League club than a League Two club. At least you are very well rewarded, and the sacking, which is inevitable at most clubs, comes with a big fat pay-off. I guess pressure is what you choose to create, at the end of the day it's just a game.

Absolutely 100% agree Digs. At the end of the day pressure is what you make it. Sure you’ll get every decision dissected by all and sundry but who cares because you’ve got cash filling up your bank account like snow in an Austrian ski resort and as you say when the inevitable sack comes you get even more.

Funny how people have “so much expertise” when nitpicking football managers every decision but are oblivious to catastrophic decisions made by captains of industry. If only Fred Goodwin had had his decision making scrutinised in much greater detail. I dare say he also thought “doesn’t matter if I screw up i’ll Still get a big fat payout”.

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Post by raycastleunited on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 17:22

Digs - This is true.

It was reported that Lopetegui was due a pay out of 18m euros after being sacked 4 months into his 3 year contract at Real Madrid. I have a suspicion that this is an exaggeration but in any case I'm sure he got a pay off in the millions for a few months in the Real Madrid pressure cooker.

For me, it's not the game pressure which would get to me, but rather being pursued everywhere, people harassing your family, photographers following you around on holiday. I've come out of restaurants and seen paparazzi lying in the street so that they can get an upskirt photo of some celeb. Literally the gutter press... I would need an obscene amount of money and an escape mechanism to tolerate that.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 20:53

Well, that was predictable. The only thing more obvious than that deal failing is that Parliament will never allow no deal to go through.
Stop wasting time, I’m not sure that we even need another vote, repeal Article 50 and give the whole thing up as a shambolic, embarrassing episode.

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Post by JAS on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 21:41

Diggers wrote:Well, that was predictable. The only thing more obvious than that deal failing is that Parliament will never allow no deal to go through.
Stop wasting time, I’m not sure that we even need another vote, repeal Article 50 and give the whole thing up as a shambolic, embarrassing episode.

That step was fairly predictable although the size of the defeat was even bigger than predicted. Total impasse now as all the rebels will now rally behind her in the NC vote (duplicitous cretins). How will the logjam be broken? It’s either going to be
1. Blunder on to No Deal
2. EU throw a bone around the spring equinox and midnight oil get burned to create a fudge
3. She somehow contrives to lose the NC vote and we have a GE
4. A majority of MPs manage to get a 2nd referendum scheduled
5. A majority of MPs just vote to revoke Article 50
6. None of the above

Which way will it go??


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Post by Diggers on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 22:06

The vote of no confidence seems pointless but has to happen to enable Labour to call for a people’s vote as an option (having failed to secure a GE). That basically follow the step by step route they agreed at their conference.
I think about a 100 MPs want a no deal, it just won’t happen, May has said as much in her speech. Whatever legislation is needed to stop that (quite frankly beyond bonkers) option will happen.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 07:44

raycastleunited wrote:
Davie wrote:Big Sam has ruled himself out - which almost certainly means he gets it!

Reading between the lines with Wagner, it sounds like he's mentally exhausted - possibly even on the verge of some sort of breakdown and said he wanted to quit at the end of the season to get his act together. After talks they decided it would be with immediate effect - maybe for his health's sake?

Managing a premier league club must be like living under a microscope. And every week you get dissected by 50,000 people who think they could do a better job than you. Not many people could handle the pressure, I wouldn't do it.

A bit like being a greenkeeper.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 08:25

Diggers wrote:The vote of no confidence seems pointless but has to happen to enable Labour to call for a people’s vote as an option (having failed to secure a GE). That basically follow the step by step route they agreed at their conference.
I think about a 100 MPs want a no deal, it just won’t happen, May has said as much in her speech. Whatever legislation is needed to stop that (quite frankly beyond bonkers) option will happen.
This one will be interesting given Corbyn is an avowed Brexiteer. Probably better his NC motion fails as I can imagine a few knots in his GE campaign given his position on Europe.
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Post by super_realist on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 08:31

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:The vote of no confidence seems pointless but has to happen to enable Labour to call for a people’s vote as an option (having failed to secure a GE). That basically follow the step by step route they agreed at their conference.
I think about a 100 MPs want a no deal, it just won’t happen, May has said as much in her speech. Whatever legislation is needed to stop that (quite frankly beyond bonkers) option will happen.
This one will be interesting given Corbyn is an avowed Brexiteer. Probably better his NC motion fails as I can imagine a few knots in his GE campaign given his position on Europe.

I'd rather Mac was PM rather than Albert Steptoe Corbyn. At least Mac has at times expressed a sense of humour. Corbyn is the most sullen, most miserable man in politics who simply seems content to be the opposition. Can anyone imagine him being PM? I think he'd actually sh1t himself.

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 09:04

I think Premier League managers have the right to 100% of the remainder of their contract paying upon termination, presumably with the caveat that silence is maintained and the exiting manager doesn't work as a manager until the end date of the contract from which he's been released. Presumably in that case the "negotiated settlement" you often see reduces the payout in return for permission for the manager to manage elsewhere.


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Post by JAS on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 09:28

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:The vote of no confidence seems pointless but has to happen to enable Labour to call for a people’s vote as an option (having failed to secure a GE). That basically follow the step by step route they agreed at their conference.
I think about a 100 MPs want a no deal, it just won’t happen, May has said as much in her speech. Whatever legislation is needed to stop that (quite frankly beyond bonkers) option will happen.
This one will be interesting given Corbyn is an avowed Brexiteer. Probably better his NC motion fails as I can imagine a few knots in his GE campaign given his position on Europe.

I'd rather Mac was PM rather than Albert Steptoe Corbyn. At least Mac has at times expressed a sense of humour. Corbyn is the most sullen, most miserable man in politics who simply seems content to be the opposition. Can anyone imagine him being PM? I think he'd actually sh1t himself.

I think he’d do a surprisingly good job. I don’t particularly like his personality but I wouldnt vote for something based on the personality of the leader.
He actually represents a real change unlike Blair who was basically a Tory with a red tie.

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Post by raycastleunited on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:44

Every football club has fans who constantly moan about the team. Often season ticket holders who turn up every week just to slag of the board, manager, players. Every golf club has members who constantly complain about the condition of the course, pin positions, clubhouse etc, but aren't on the committee and deep down wouldn't want to be in charge. They prefer to safely grumble from the sidelines with no responsibility. Often the complaints make sense and are issues that should be addressed, but if these people were actually given control they wouldn't know what to do, and would make massive mistakes and c0ck everything up.

Corbyn is the political equivalent of moaning clubhouse man. It's so easy to point out flaws, so much harder to create something.

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Post by I'm never wrong on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 10:46

Stoke 2 The Mighty Shrews 3. Came back from 2-0 down. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

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Post by Shotrock on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 11:59

Usually the bizarre Donald Trump dominates and keeps our short attention spans, but I thought this was an interesting way for many of us not too familiar with the situation to follow along: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/15/world/europe/may-brexit-vote-fail.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

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Post by JAS on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 12:45

raycastleunited wrote:Every football club has fans who constantly moan about the team. Often season ticket holders who turn up every week just to slag of the board, manager, players. Every golf club has members who constantly complain about the condition of the course, pin positions, clubhouse etc, but aren't on the committee and deep down wouldn't want to be in charge. They prefer to safely grumble from the sidelines with no responsibility. Often the complaints make sense and are issues that should be addressed, but if these people were actually given control they wouldn't know what to do, and would make massive mistakes and c0ck everything up.

Corbyn is the political equivalent of moaning clubhouse man. It's so easy to point out flaws, so much harder to create something.

...and to further the analogy...if moaning clubhouse man got onto the committee and was elected chairman, when he started trying to implement his alternative ideas people would object, even though they agreed about the need for change and broadly had the same view they’d be against moaning man implementing them simply because it was moaning man and they didn’t like him. Pretty spot on illustration of the country as is!!

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Post by McLaren on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 14:10

I think what all the political commentators are ignoring is the stupidity of your average brit.  A majority of those that voted in the referendum voted for brexit and then in the 2017 general election the two main parties who were pro/not against brexit got a much higher share of the vote than normal.  The lib dems for example suffered badly on a no brexit platform.

Despite it being obvious that leaving the EU was one of the most numb skull ideas ever both before the referendum and then after we actually pulled the article 50 trigger the British (mostly English) voter still doesn't get it. We are sadly a small minded uncultured island that maybe doesn't deserve to be part of the European project. The English in particular just haven't gained the mindset of a 21st century liberal European population.


Shotrock

That was a particularly kind take the NY Times had on the mess we are in.
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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 14:15

It’s the oppositions job to moan. Picking out Corbyn for doing what every single opposition leader in history has done seems strange.
Who has the ability to reach out and create a cross party policy? Who clearly wouldn’t even listen to her own party?

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Post by McLaren on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 14:22

Diggers

The issue for Corbyn is linked to what I said above, he knows the public are anti europe and therefore labours only hope is to be a pro brexit party. Sadly running a pro brexit opposition sits quite nicely with his own views on the EU.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 14:42

I'm never wrong wrote:Stoke 2 The Mighty Shrews 3.  Came back from 2-0 down. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


Assuming he keeps you up, Inw, Ricketts will have a nice little pot of loot to reinvest for next year - he's a slightly different character for a pro player, isn't he? Probably helps him to deflect the slings and arrows.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 15:12

The only redeeming feature of Brexit for the UK from an Irish point of view is that after Ireland slipped from British rule it took Ireland a long time to become an economic success however, today Ireland is ranked 5th in terms of GDP per capita globally so splitting from a strong economic union can work.

The bad news is that the Irish success is in part down to EU membership and least the benefits of membership are quite tangible from an Irish POV. I cant see anything but an economic slide for Britain for some years to come followed by some fairly embarrassing grovelling to become members again.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 15:13

Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

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Post by I'm never wrong on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 15:32

kwinigolfer wrote:Assuming he keeps you up, Inw, Ricketts will have a nice little pot of loot to reinvest for next year - he's a slightly different character for a pro player, isn't he? Probably helps him to deflect the slings and arrows.
Kwini, I will admit to only following Shrewsbury online and in the newspaper. I had a season ticket in my teens, so keep an eye on them now. After nearly getting promoted last year, seems strange that they are struggling this year. Players moving on I expect, new manager(s) etc. But a toughie against their nearest football rivals, Wolves, to come. I remember one day, when Wolves' match was cancelled, all their fans came to the Meadow. During the match - not at half time mind you - they all charged across the pitch at the Shrewsbury fans. Interesting times.

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Post by raycastleunited on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 15:42

Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

No, wouldn't have made a difference who was negotiating. The deal proposed by the EU and the UK can like it or lump it.

EDIT
Sorry Digs, but I just need to clarify something here: do you think Labour has some expert demon trade tariff negotiators waiting in the wings? Because I don't think it works like that. The UK negotiators aren't Tory, they are impartial career civil servants.

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Post by raycastleunited on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 15:56

JAS wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:Every football club has fans who constantly moan about the team. Often season ticket holders who turn up every week just to slag of the board, manager, players. Every golf club has members who constantly complain about the condition of the course, pin positions, clubhouse etc, but aren't on the committee and deep down wouldn't want to be in charge. They prefer to safely grumble from the sidelines with no responsibility. Often the complaints make sense and are issues that should be addressed, but if these people were actually given control they wouldn't know what to do, and would make massive mistakes and c0ck everything up.

Corbyn is the political equivalent of moaning clubhouse man. It's so easy to point out flaws, so much harder to create something.

...and to further the analogy...if moaning clubhouse man got onto the committee and was elected chairman, when he started trying to implement his alternative ideas people would object, even though they agreed about the need for change and broadly had the same view they’d be against moaning man implementing them simply because it was moaning man and they didn’t like him. Pretty spot on illustration of the country as is!!

True JAS.

But continuing the analogy, moaning clubhouse man was elected chairman on the basis that he said he would make the course as good as Augusta, his assistant Diane Abbott had received a quote for £4.50 to install a sub-air system under all the greens, and it wouldn't cost the majority of members anything because he had a plan to get more money from a minority of the better off members.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 17:06

raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

No, wouldn't have made a difference who was negotiating. The deal proposed by the EU and the UK can like it or lump it.

EDIT
Sorry Digs, but I just need to clarify something here: do you think Labour has some expert demon trade tariff negotiators waiting in the wings? Because I don't think it works like that. The UK negotiators aren't Tory, they are impartial career civil servants.

No, I think you have to also look at what the EU wants from the deal, from the start. Do you remember what May first boast was at the start of the negotiations...something about her being difficult? Well, that worked out well.
I know that other deals are possible because other countries have different deals. They made those deals making compromises that they could live with and suit the EU.
Again, and this baffles me, can you tell me a single moment when May has reached out and sought cross Parliament support? She is the architect of the crap that we have.
And if you want the mock finances from politicians here’s two things for you. Look at the government sums during the election for free breakfasts for kids. That was hilarious. And if that isn’t funny enough look at the u turn on figures for social reform.
Ten years of utter incompetence.

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Post by raycastleunited on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 17:31

Diggers wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

No, wouldn't have made a difference who was negotiating. The deal proposed by the EU and the UK can like it or lump it.

EDIT
Sorry Digs, but I just need to clarify something here: do you think Labour has some expert demon trade tariff negotiators waiting in the wings? Because I don't think it works like that. The UK negotiators aren't Tory, they are impartial career civil servants.

No, I think you have to also look at what the EU wants from the deal, from the start. Do you remember what May first boast was at the start of the negotiations...something about her being difficult? Well, that worked out well.
I know that other deals are possible because other countries have different deals. They made those deals making compromises that they could live with and suit the EU.
Again, and this baffles me, can you tell me a single moment when May has reached out and sought cross Parliament support? She is the architect of the crap that we have.
And if you want the mock finances from politicians here’s two things for you. Look at the government sums during the election for free breakfasts for kids. That was hilarious. And if that isn’t funny enough look at the u turn on figures for social reform.
Ten years of utter incompetence.

Digs you're starting to sound like moaning clubhouse man! laughing

I expect the UK negotiators have tried to keep May as far away from the actual negotiating table as possible. As they would have done with any politician. May hasn't "reached out and sought cross Parliament support" because it's not relevant in the negotiation with the EU.

You can't say you know that other deals are possible because this hasn't happened before. Other deals negotiated in other circumstances result in other outcomes. The UK has backed itself into a corner and has to accept what the EU offer, unless we are able to create an event (I don't know what - another referendum?) that changes the balance of power.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 17:34

Diggers wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

No, wouldn't have made a difference who was negotiating. The deal proposed by the EU and the UK can like it or lump it.

EDIT
Sorry Digs, but I just need to clarify something here: do you think Labour has some expert demon trade tariff negotiators waiting in the wings? Because I don't think it works like that. The UK negotiators aren't Tory, they are impartial career civil servants.

No, I think you have to also look at what the EU wants from the deal, from the start. Do you remember what May first boast was at the start of the negotiations...something about her being difficult? Well, that worked out well.
I know that other deals are possible because other countries have different deals. They made those deals making compromises that they could live with and suit the EU.
Again, and this baffles me, can you tell me a single moment when May has reached out and sought cross Parliament support? She is the architect of the crap that we have.
And if you want the mock finances from politicians here’s two things for you. Look at the government sums during the election for free breakfasts for kids. That was hilarious. And if that isn’t funny enough look at the u turn on figures for social reform.
Ten years of utter incompetence.

It might also be worth remembering, before blaming everyone else, who came up with the brilliant "red line" ideas. These set the parameters that the negotiating team have to work to, they didn't make them up, lets not pretend they have carte blanche to negotiate terms, that's nonsense. They look after the detail, not the broad brush strokes. So to suggest that every negotiation would have ended up the same way is just not the case (for example if the possibility of a permanent customs union was on the table - which would be to the EUs and UK s benefit), that decision has been condemned as a major failure with the negotiations by all sides of the argument, she hemmed herself in from the outset. Resilient? Try retarded.
Here is a link to the breakfast costing debacle - 7p a kid was the figure they used, morons. And, surprise, surprise, they u-turned on it anyway.
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/government-finally-confirms-u-turn-on-free-primary-school-breakfasts-policy/

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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 17:37

raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

No, wouldn't have made a difference who was negotiating. The deal proposed by the EU and the UK can like it or lump it.

EDIT
Sorry Digs, but I just need to clarify something here: do you think Labour has some expert demon trade tariff negotiators waiting in the wings? Because I don't think it works like that. The UK negotiators aren't Tory, they are impartial career civil servants.

No, I think you have to also look at what the EU wants from the deal, from the start. Do you remember what May first boast was at the start of the negotiations...something about her being difficult? Well, that worked out well.
I know that other deals are possible because other countries have different deals. They made those deals making compromises that they could live with and suit the EU.
Again, and this baffles me, can you tell me a single moment when May has reached out and sought cross Parliament support? She is the architect of the crap that we have.
And if you want the mock finances from politicians here’s two things for you. Look at the government sums during the election for free breakfasts for kids. That was hilarious. And if that isn’t funny enough look at the u turn on figures for social reform.
Ten years of utter incompetence.

Digs you're starting to sound like moaning clubhouse man! laughing

I expect the UK negotiators have tried to keep May as far away from the actual negotiating table as possible. As they would have done with any politician. May hasn't "reached out and sought cross Parliament support" because it's not relevant in the negotiation with the EU.

You can't say you know that other deals are possible because this hasn't happened before. Other deals negotiated in other circumstances result in other outcomes. The UK has backed itself into a corner and has to accept what the EU offer, unless we are able to create an event (I don't know what - another referendum?) that changes the balance of power.

How is not relevant if failing to reach out means the deal doesn't get through? Which it hasn't. Which everyone knew.
And why, if it's not relevant, wast he whole gist of her speech last night about doing exactly that? I know other deals produce other outcomes...isn't that the whole point? The UK didn't back itself into a corner...May did.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 18:37

Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

How do you work that out? With a leader who pretends to be pro Brexit in the south and a Brexiteer in the north I don't think you can make a claim like that at all.
Truth is, I don't think anyone could have got a deal through. It's not in Europe's interest to negotiate a deal which benefits Britain or makes it easy for other countries to do the same thing and maintain a relationship with Europe, because then Italy will be the next one to try that.


However, seeing as you seem so well versed and think that whenever I give an opinion that I should present it to the powers that be to solve the issue, why don't you do the same? You like to think you've got all the answers, so why sit on your hands? Why not go up there to London and sort it all out Diggers?

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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 18:42

I'd try Cameron for treason. That would unite the country, Europe too probably.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 18:56

super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

How do you work that out? With a leader who pretends to be pro Brexit in the south and a Brexiteer in the north I don't think you can make a claim like that at all.
Truth is, I don't think anyone could have got a deal through. It's not in Europe's interest to negotiate a deal which benefits Britain or makes it easy for other countries to do the same thing and maintain a relationship with Europe, because then Italy will be the next one to try that.


However, seeing as you seem so well versed and think that whenever I give an opinion that I should present it to the powers that be to solve the issue, why don't you do the same? You like to think you've got all the answers, so why sit on your hands? Why not go up there to London and sort it all out Diggers?

There isn’t a Brexit deal that benefits the UK. Where have I said there was? It’s obvious I don’t think that. To suggest no other outcome was possible is however highly implausible. And to moan at Corbyn for May’s failings is just nonsensical.
Try reading what I’ve said about any negotiation, which is also about  finding a deal that would get through Parliament. The deal that might have got through is one that ties us to the EU, a softer Brexit. That would be more likely to get through, that appears to be the considered opinion.
Are you saying that if we had approached the EU in those terms, as Labour would, as May hasn’t (with her red lines) that the negotiation couldn’t have been different? A completely different negotiation start point, massively changing the deal for both parties, couldn’t change an outcome? Really?
I’m not presenting any solution re a deal, I hope we don’t have one, mine would be to stop the whole show, but that will hack off a lot of people, which would actually give me huge pleasure.


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Post by super_realist on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 18:57

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:The vote of no confidence seems pointless but has to happen to enable Labour to call for a people’s vote as an option (having failed to secure a GE). That basically follow the step by step route they agreed at their conference.
I think about a 100 MPs want a no deal, it just won’t happen, May has said as much in her speech. Whatever legislation is needed to stop that (quite frankly beyond bonkers) option will happen.
This one will be interesting given Corbyn is an avowed Brexiteer. Probably better his NC motion fails as I can imagine a few knots in his GE campaign given his position on Europe.

I'd rather Mac was PM rather than Albert Steptoe Corbyn. At least Mac has at times expressed a sense of humour. Corbyn is the most sullen, most miserable man in politics who simply seems content to be the opposition. Can anyone imagine him being PM? I think he'd actually sh1t himself.

I think he’d do a surprisingly good job. I don’t particularly like his personality but I wouldnt vote for something based on the personality of the leader.  
He actually represents a real change unlike Blair who was basically a Tory with a red tie.

What makes you think a trot would run a good country? Socialism doesn't work

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Post by dynamark on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 20:35

Not sure Ive ever heard Corbyn or any of his lead group(who are looking mighty twitchy on/re him)have said our policy is a second referendum.Their base electorate would not stand for it.
This could be the end for Corbyn if he keeps sitting on his fence looking smug.
May now has to play real hardball with EU and the HOP and if no one blinks then its leave and WTO rules plus a no doubt very busy few months to sort out the details.Have no fear.

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Post by pedro on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 20:43

Contrary to May, I’m sure Corbyns winning personality could have negotiated a much better deal.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 20:49

Dyna, you’re badly informed I’m afraid.
Labour policy was clearly laid out at conference and has been repeated and followed exactly as discussed since. John McDonnell was on Radio 4 this morning laying it out once again. This is it:
1. Look at the deal and see if it passes their tests (it didn’t, let’s face it it’s crap).
2. Seek a general election (which they can’t force) and look to renegotiate as per their manifesto.
3. If that can’t be forced then explore other avenues which include another referendum.
This really shouldn’t be news to anyone who has even vaguely followed Brexit.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 20:56

pedro wrote:Contrary to May, I’m sure Corbyns winning personality could have negotiated a much better deal.

The personality that’s drawn tens of thousands of new Labour members? The personality that has held together a Labour Party as a unified front?
When he was elected the party was literary tearing itself apart, nobody gave him a cat in hells chance, couldn’t fill a cabinet. Is that happening now? Have the PLP turned on him as everyone said they would?
He carries on proving people wrong, whereas May carries on proving everybody right.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 20:59

Diggers wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

No, wouldn't have made a difference who was negotiating. The deal proposed by the EU and the UK can like it or lump it.

EDIT
Sorry Digs, but I just need to clarify something here: do you think Labour has some expert demon trade tariff negotiators waiting in the wings? Because I don't think it works like that. The UK negotiators aren't Tory, they are impartial career civil servants.

No, I think you have to also look at what the EU wants from the deal, from the start. Do you remember what May first boast was at the start of the negotiations...something about her being difficult? Well, that worked out well.
I know that other deals are possible because other countries have different deals. They made those deals making compromises that they could live with and suit the EU.
Again, and this baffles me, can you tell me a single moment when May has reached out and sought cross Parliament support? She is the architect of the crap that we have.
And if you want the mock finances from politicians here’s two things for you. Look at the government sums during the election for free breakfasts for kids. That was hilarious. And if that isn’t funny enough look at the u turn on figures for social reform.
Ten years of utter incompetence.
None of us have a clue if she has or hasn't. All we get is spun schidt from different factions, none of which can be trusted. Last I heard, none of the various Committee and faction meetings outside of the Commons is for public consumption.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 21:06

Diggers wrote:Dyna, you’re badly informed I’m afraid.
Labour policy was clearly laid out at conference and has been repeated and followed exactly as discussed since. John McDonnell was on Radio 4 this morning laying it out once again. This is it:
1. Look at the deal and see if it passes their tests (it didn’t, let’s face it it’s crap).
2. Seek a general election (which they can’t force) and look to renegotiate as per their manifesto.
3. If that can’t be forced then explore other avenues which include another referendum.
This really shouldn’t be news to anyone who has even vaguely followed Brexit.
1) It couldn't, because they were deliberately impossible to meet.
2) That's mature, especially given the timescale.
3) Jeremy has a problem with anything except Brexit. Problematic and it'll bite him on the arse sooner or later.
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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 21:12

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:
raycastleunited wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

No, wouldn't have made a difference who was negotiating. The deal proposed by the EU and the UK can like it or lump it.

EDIT
Sorry Digs, but I just need to clarify something here: do you think Labour has some expert demon trade tariff negotiators waiting in the wings? Because I don't think it works like that. The UK negotiators aren't Tory, they are impartial career civil servants.

No, I think you have to also look at what the EU wants from the deal, from the start. Do you remember what May first boast was at the start of the negotiations...something about her being difficult? Well, that worked out well.
I know that other deals are possible because other countries have different deals. They made those deals making compromises that they could live with and suit the EU.
Again, and this baffles me, can you tell me a single moment when May has reached out and sought cross Parliament support? She is the architect of the crap that we have.
And if you want the mock finances from politicians here’s two things for you. Look at the government sums during the election for free breakfasts for kids. That was hilarious. And if that isn’t funny enough look at the u turn on figures for social reform.
Ten years of utter incompetence.
None of us have a clue if she has or hasn't. All we get is spun schidt from different factions, none of which can be trusted. Last I heard, none of the various Committee and faction meetings outside of the Commons is for public consumption.

Navy, she said as much last night. Her cabinet ministers...this is the ones that back the deal massively...have all said it today. They need to start to reach out, even she now knows that, in her speech she said she would call for meetings. This is after the effing vote! Jesus wept, how obvious does something have to be? The Brexit ministers who have resigned have said she didn’t consult them.
That is how she operates, in this situation that’s a complete liability.
By the way I will bet anyone as much as they like there won’t be a no deal, unless it’s what is voted for in a second referendum. Anyone who has watched in the last few weeks and think it will get through is in cloud cuckoo land, even these MPs know we need saving from that lunacy.


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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 21:15

navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Dyna, you’re badly informed I’m afraid.
Labour policy was clearly laid out at conference and has been repeated and followed exactly as discussed since. John McDonnell was on Radio 4 this morning laying it out once again. This is it:
1. Look at the deal and see if it passes their tests (it didn’t, let’s face it it’s crap).
2. Seek a general election (which they can’t force) and look to renegotiate as per their manifesto.
3. If that can’t be forced then explore other avenues which include another referendum.
This really shouldn’t be news to anyone who has even vaguely followed Brexit.
1) It couldn't, because they were deliberately impossible to meet.
2) That's mature, especially given the timescale.
3) Jeremy has a problem with anything except Brexit. Problematic and it'll bite him on the arse sooner or later.

Dyna raised a question, I answered it with Labour policy which shows a progression abd includes...very clearly...the possibility of a second referendum. Is any of that untrue, have Labour deviated from that stance?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 21:22

You're extrapolating.

As to no-deal, it's not going to 'get through' anywhere. It's the default. That's why it may well happen.

Extending A50 needs all of EU27 to agree - just one contrary bunch can wreck that - and even if the 27 agree, they've said it won't be simply to give us unfettered time. Silly if anyone relies on E27 agreeing extension.
They have to ask though I think - there simply isn't time for anything except that and no-deal now.
Suppose we could always revoke the withdrawal as ECJ said we can - but that opens a whole new can of worms. I know pro-remain people think that's no problem, but it is; it really is.

That wet blanket on the opposition benches isn't helping either. The worst, most fractious Tory administration in living memory and they can't even get them out of power or even define what they stand for re. Brexit.

This country is a laughing stock and the rest of the World is quietly realising that we've been a fraud for ~70 years. Talking a load of BS about how big and 'World-leading' we are. Bollox.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 21:24

Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Diggers wrote:Dyna, you’re badly informed I’m afraid.
Labour policy was clearly laid out at conference and has been repeated and followed exactly as discussed since. John McDonnell was on Radio 4 this morning laying it out once again. This is it:
1. Look at the deal and see if it passes their tests (it didn’t, let’s face it it’s crap).
2. Seek a general election (which they can’t force) and look to renegotiate as per their manifesto.
3. If that can’t be forced then explore other avenues which include another referendum.
This really shouldn’t be news to anyone who has even vaguely followed Brexit.
1) It couldn't, because they were deliberately impossible to meet.
2) That's mature, especially given the timescale.
3) Jeremy has a problem with anything except Brexit. Problematic and it'll bite him on the arse sooner or later.

Dyna raised a question, I answered it with Labour policy which shows a progression abd includes...very clearly...the possibility of a second referendum. Is any of that untrue, have Labour deviated from that stance?
No, not saying they have. Simply suggesting that they're offering no realistic solutions at all, not defining how they stand on the actual issue and/or wasting valuable Parliamentary time.
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Post by Diggers on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 21:36

navyblueshorts wrote:You're extrapolating.

As to no-deal, it's not going to 'get through' anywhere. It's the default. That's why it may well happen.

Extending A50 needs all of EU27 to agree - just one contrary bunch can wreck that - and even if the 27 agree, they've said it won't be simply to give us unfettered time. Silly if anyone relies on E27 agreeing extension.
They have to ask though I think - there simply isn't time for anything except that and no-deal now.
Suppose we could always revoke the withdrawal as ECJ said we can - but that opens a whole new can of worms. I know pro-remain people think that's no problem, but it is; it really is.

That wet blanket on the opposition benches isn't helping either. The worst, most fractious Tory administration in living memory and they can't even get them out of power or even define what they stand for re. Brexit.

This country is a laughing stock and the rest of the World is quietly realising that we've been a fraud for ~70 years. Talking a load of BS about how big and 'World-leading' we are. Bollox.

Default can change easily . Did you see what Tusk said yesterday? You don’t think they would agree? It will not happen.
I have no problem with most of what you say about the UK, I wish you’d stop tarring every politician as some sort of anti christ, Im sure there are plenty of decent people on all sides.

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Post by pedro on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 23:48

Why should the EU27 agree to extend when nobody knows what the UK wants? Except leave. So no helping hand from the EU as far as I can see. Even if May begs EU for concessions I realistically only see these options:
1) hard brexit
2) referendum about the deal

2 is more and more likely as apparently there won’t be a GE. Most of Labour and many Tories should eventually support it. Parliament is split across parties and so is the people. So among the two options I say let the people decide how to leave.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 00:38

Abdication of government not to call a General Election though, surely?

And, by the by, what exactly has May's government actually done over the past 30 months? Except hold Drumpf's hand.

Call a GE, send Cameron to the Tower.

(Easy from the west coast of New England.)

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Post by Diggers on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 07:30

pedro wrote:Why should the EU27 agree to extend when nobody knows what the UK wants? Except leave. So no helping hand from the EU as far as I can see. Even if May begs EU for concessions I realistically only see these options:
1) hard brexit
2) referendum about the deal

2 is more and more likely as apparently there won’t be a GE. Most of Labour and many Tories should eventually support it. Parliament is split across parties and so is the people. So among the two options I say let the people decide how to leave.

Around 560 MPs have no interest in no deal. We know barely any have an interest in this “deal” and May’s plan is to tweak it. We all know what you can’t polish.
It’s like a choice between eating crap or puke voting on those 2 options.
The best deal is to remain, I think there will be a vote and that will be on the ballot paper.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 07:48

Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:Contrary to May, I’m sure Corbyns winning personality could have negotiated a much better deal.

The personality that’s drawn tens of thousands of new Labour members? The personality that has held together a Labour Party as a unified front?
When he was elected the party was literary tearing itself apart, nobody gave him a cat in hells chance, couldn’t fill a cabinet. Is that happening now? Have the PLP turned on him as everyone said they would?
He carries on proving people wrong, whereas May carries on proving everybody right.

The personality that couldn't beat the worst Conservative government in 70 years? The personality which leads a party with a glaring contradiction on Europe? The personality of a man who is more pro Brexit than Theresa May? Why on earth would a pro Brexit leader be able to negotiate a better deal than someone who is actually pro remain?
Why can you not see what a liability Corbyn is to actually moving his party forward? It couldn't have fallen much further when he took the helm. It's hardly a glaring recommendation for him for what you claim he has "achieved" so far.

Labour are shooting themselves in the foot by having this oaf in charge. Labour could be making gains by having a pro Remain person in charge like Keir Starmer. Corbyn has no chance of getting a floating voter and being a thoroughly dislikeable person with no sense of humour does him no good at all. Even as it stands in the complete mess we are in right now, he's still not fancied to win an election. If that's the barometer of what you think is a good leader, then perhaps you aren't as political savvy as you like to project.

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