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Post by super_realist on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 8:40 am

First topic message reminder :

Diggers wrote:On another note I’ve been teaching Spanish as part of my job this year, tricky when I don’t speak a word...or didn’t. Been using Duolingo for 3 weeks, still very early but amazing how quickly it helps you pick things up. Also asked the wife for some CD’s for Xmas to listen to on my commute. There is a Spanish guy who works for the premises team so when I feel a bit more confident Ill try some conversational Spanish with him.
Anyway, early but that’s my new year resolution, to follow it through and at least be competent, partly to help with my job and partly because Uve always wanted to learn a language, partly because I really think learning new stuff keeps your brain fresher.
Anyone else have something they really want to learn to do?


I'm not trying to be confrontational here Diggers, but how on earth can a school let someone without the skills in a subject to teach it? I can see how someone could blag teaching something like art, PE, English etc, but not a language. I suppose if it's at Primary Level you could teach counting to ten, asking where the railway station is etc.
I presume it's not secondary school?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:00 am

Diggers wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:You're extrapolating.

As to no-deal, it's not going to 'get through' anywhere. It's the default. That's why it may well happen.

Extending A50 needs all of EU27 to agree - just one contrary bunch can wreck that - and even if the 27 agree, they've said it won't be simply to give us unfettered time. Silly if anyone relies on E27 agreeing extension.
They have to ask though I think - there simply isn't time for anything except that and no-deal now.
Suppose we could always revoke the withdrawal as ECJ said we can - but that opens a whole new can of worms. I know pro-remain people think that's no problem, but it is; it really is.

That wet blanket on the opposition benches isn't helping either. The worst, most fractious Tory administration in living memory and they can't even get them out of power or even define what they stand for re. Brexit.

This country is a laughing stock and the rest of the World is quietly realising that we've been a fraud for ~70 years. Talking a load of BS about how big and 'World-leading' we are. Bollox.

Default can change easily . Did you see what Tusk said yesterday? You don’t think they would agree? It will not happen.
I have no problem with most of what you say about the UK, I wish you’d stop tarring every politician as some sort of anti christ, Im sure there are plenty of decent people on all sides.
Sorry, cynicism seems to be my default. Then again, isn't that the fault of the politicians we have to suffer? They're losing the respect (if not already done so) of their electorate, and that can only be bad in the long run. Too many of them are utter schidt and only thinking about number one. Too many others put party issues over national interest.

As to no-deal and Tusk, you may well be correct but it would be really dumb to rely on that.

As to May/Corbyn, Tom Peck of the Independent kind of sums it up:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/no-confidence-vote-theresa-may-brexit-deal-win-corbyn-debate-election-gove-watson-debate-a8731746.html
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Post by pedro on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:13 am

Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:Why should the EU27 agree to extend when nobody knows what the UK wants? Except leave. So no helping hand from the EU as far as I can see. Even if May begs EU for concessions I realistically only see these options:
1) hard brexit
2) referendum about the deal

2 is more and more likely as apparently there won’t be a GE. Most of Labour and many Tories should eventually support it. Parliament is split across parties and so is the people. So among the two options I say let the people decide how to leave.

Around 560 MPs have no interest in no deal. We know barely any have an interest in this “deal” and May’s plan is to tweak it. We all know what you can’t polish.
It’s like a choice between eating crap or puke voting on those 2 options.
The best deal is to remain, I think there will be a vote and that will be on the ballot paper.
Yes Remain is the best deal. But, sorry, that option won't be on the ballot. Why is it you think so?

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Post by pedro on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:20 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Abdication of government not to call a General Election though, surely?

And, by the by, what exactly has May's government actually done over the past 30 months? Except hold Drumpf's hand.

Call a GE, send Cameron to the Tower.

(Easy from the west coast of New England.)
You sound like Corbyn.. Why would she call a GE? How would that fix the mess? Wouldn't you say the 2017 post referendum GE gave May mandate to negotiate a deal, (albeit a somewhat weakish mandate)? Wouldn't it make more sense to call a referendum on the deal?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:21 am

Diggers wrote:
pedro wrote:Why should the EU27 agree to extend when nobody knows what the UK wants? Except leave. So no helping hand from the EU as far as I can see. Even if May begs EU for concessions I realistically only see these options:
1) hard brexit
2) referendum about the deal

2 is more and more likely as apparently there won’t be a GE. Most of Labour and many Tories should eventually support it. Parliament is split across parties and so is the people. So among the two options I say let the people decide how to leave.

Around 560 MPs have no interest in no deal. We know barely any have an interest in this “deal” and May’s plan is to tweak it. We all know what you can’t polish.
It’s like a choice between eating crap or puke voting on those 2 options.
The best deal is to remain, I think there will be a vote and that will be on the ballot paper.
Can of worms. What would be the questions? Out and remain, as before? No-deal and May's deal? Has to be a binary choice otherwise they're splitting one or other of the Brexit and Remainer votes. Would need an extension of A50 as well, for which there's currently no guarantee.
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Post by raycastleunited on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:51 am

Wow Digs, you're sounding like Jeremy. Blame, blame, blame, it's all May's fault. You sound like you've been brainwashed.

The EU27 holds all the cards, has minimal interest in giving the UK a "good deal", and has other countries queuing up to join. The EU would be offering the same deal regardless of whether it was Corbyn or May who was PM.

May is rubbish, the Conservatives are rubbish, Labour is rubbish. But you can't blame May for Brexit and the mess we are in. It's a whole chain of events going back to the lies of the Leave campaign, the complacency of the Remain campaign, the stupidity / gullibility of the British public.

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Post by JAS on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 11:59 am

To be fair the CURRENT state of affairs IS Mays fault, bless her for her persistence but she really has no clue and she’s a flip flopper, remember her saying No Deal is better than a bad deal?? Less than 2 years later she’d completely morphed into my bad deal is better than no deal please support it. Remember 2017....No there will be no general election, we have a fixed term parliament, flipped within a month to we’re having an election. Strong and stable became weak and wobbly.
She campaigned for remain and was then placed in a position to champion leave so in some respects the Tory party in general are culpable.

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Post by Diggers on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 1:11 pm

Ray, you didn’t answer my question. Did the bureaucrats and lawyers come up with Teresa’s red lines?

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Post by dynamark on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 4:18 pm

I pretty sure now digs is a fully paid up member of the labour/corbyn party.
He JC has not been able to force an election full stop .You can say what you like in opposition in terms of tests but it just doesn't matter in any way at all you are not in a position of power .Bit like being 5 down with 4 to play.
We in UK law are leaving end of March and if its a no previously agreed deal there will be some very serious and quick decisions made on both sides
Last couple of days I happen to think Jc is damaged and his own slightly brighter Mps are looking pretty irritated.

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Post by Diggers on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 4:39 pm

dynamark wrote:I pretty sure now digs is a fully paid up member of the labour/corbyn party.
He JC has not been able to force an election full stop .You can say what you like in opposition in terms of tests but it just doesn't matter in any way at all  you are not in a position of power .Bit like being 5 down with 4 to play.
We in UK law are leaving end of March and if its a no previously agreed  deal there will be some very serious and quick decisions made on both sides
Last couple of days I happen to think Jc is damaged and his own slightly brighter Mps are looking pretty irritated.

Well Dyna, I'm not to sure that we can trust your political acumen. You clearly didn't have a clue about Labour Brexit policy and, more tellingly, you seem to think that scrapping pretty much all social care in Britain doesn't mean you have right wing political tendencies. I'd say you were a fully paid up UKIP member, but I think they are probably a bit too touchy feely for you.


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Post by dynamark on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 8:47 pm

Hey Digs No personal offence between us meant but policy really doesn't carry much weight when you are not in a position to implement it. Parties not in the seat can say pretty much anything eg. we may scrap tuition fees got my daughters vote.
I do not have any real political leaning and have seen them both in action managed to survive quite well .
I work in social housing and had the pleasure today in Greenwich of meeting a couple of really good tenants who worked and cared for their properties then a couple later who were exact opposite.
My view is to take charge of your own situation and only rely on the state as a last resort its there if you really need it.I still think Corbyn has made a mistake last couple of days in particular and will start to fell some heat from his own mp s.

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Post by Diggers on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:14 pm

Anyone can say anything in an election race, Dyna. Have a look at how much of the Tory manifesto was followed. Whether or not Labour deliver all their policies there isn’t too much doubt they would be radically different from current policy. Whether you want that or or not is of course another matter.
Look, I don’t really give a toss about Corbyn own views on Brexit. I can accept he’s more of a leaver than May in all probablity. That doesn’t matter if he acts like the democrat he professes to be and backs the predominant Labour line which is either a soft Brexit or no Brexit. I dont think the posturing on both sides at the moment counts for jack, May doesn’t want to move and Corbyn knows that, as do the other leaders.
I’m not going to hide the fact that I have a visceral hatred for no deal, it’s the antithesis of my belief system. I have no sense of humour about it. If that means I piss some people off so be it.

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Post by pedro on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 11:29 pm

Sorry to say it digs, but the people voted leave. It is the PMs job to see it through in the best possible way for the country, whatever that is. Regardless, the people gave her renewed mandate at the 2017 GE. So I think you should forget about Remain as an option, as well as a new GE, and in stead hope the deal is put out for referendum.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 18 Jan 2019, 8:01 am

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:Brexiteers moan about Corbyn, if Labour had negotiated the deal we’d most likely have agreed a permanent customs union with some flexibility on free movement. That might, just might, have got through the house. The fact they are too dumb to see that speaks volumes.
I’m personally glad they didn’t as Brexit seems a long way off right now.

How do you work that out? With a leader who pretends to be pro Brexit in the south and a Brexiteer in the north I don't think you can make a claim like that at all.
Truth is, I don't think anyone could have got a deal through. It's not in Europe's interest to negotiate a deal which benefits Britain or makes it easy for other countries to do the same thing and maintain a relationship with Europe, because then Italy will be the next one to try that.


However, seeing as you seem so well versed and think that whenever I give an opinion that I should present it to the powers that be to solve the issue, why don't you do the same? You like to think you've got all the answers, so why sit on your hands? Why not go up there to London and sort it all out Diggers?

There isn’t a Brexit deal that benefits the UK. Where have I said there was? It’s obvious I don’t think that. To suggest no other outcome was possible is however highly implausible. And to moan at Corbyn for May’s failings is just nonsensical.
Try reading what I’ve said about any negotiation, which is also about  finding a deal that would get through Parliament. The deal that might have got through is one that ties us to the EU, a softer Brexit. That would be more likely to get through, that appears to be the considered opinion.
Are you saying that if we had approached the EU in those terms, as Labour would, as May hasn’t (with her red lines) that the negotiation couldn’t have been different? A completely different negotiation start point, massively changing the deal for both parties, couldn’t change an outcome? Really?
I’m not presenting any solution re a deal, I hope we don’t have one, mine would be to stop the whole show, but that will hack off a lot of people, which would actually give me huge pleasure.

You're the one constantly moaning about May, yet has Corbyn been any more effective? Corbyn has one job, to provide an adept, viable, effective opposition and he hasn't, not even close, so shouldn't he resign? He leads a party every bit as disjointed and divided on Brexit as the Tories, perhaps even more so.
He's always asking for May to "move aside", well perhaps he should because he's been a complete failure throughout his tenure, peak Corbyn has long since passed and it's back on the slide again. Even now, he's not considered to have even an outside chance of winning an election.
Labour needs someone better than Corbyn.

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Post by Diggers on Fri 18 Jan 2019, 8:12 am

pedro wrote:Sorry to say it digs, but the people voted leave. It is the PMs job to see it through in the best possible way for the country, whatever that is. Regardless, the people gave her renewed mandate at the 2017 GE. So I think you should forget about Remain as an option, as well as a new GE, and in stead hope the deal is put out for referendum.

Don't agree. We've had all the debate about why and why not I'd agree so won't carry it one here. Nothing undemocratic about another vote. Ultimately comes down to what you want now and I want to stay, if that hacks off a lot of people so be it.

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Post by dynamark on Fri 18 Jan 2019, 4:58 pm

I'm hacked off .The vote was leave 52-48 end of.Another vote is undemocratic best of 3 anyone?
Something I had forgotten was that Cameron went to Europe asking for some assurances before calling the referendum and got nothing from them at that time .
At least now Europe have a message from our Parliament not great but emphatic.

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Post by Diggers on Fri 18 Jan 2019, 6:26 pm

We do live in a democracy. What Brexiteers don’t seem to understand is that it’s a parliamentary democracy. It is one of the many, many ironies of Brexit that so many of them rage about ”giving back sovereign control to our Parliament”. Yet they don’t see that any law made by Parliament, which a new referendum would have to be, is by its very nature democratic, as that’s exactly the democracy we are in.
It could happen as a best of 50 and it would still be democratic. You might not think it fair, but that’s a completely different argument.



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Post by dynamark on Fri 18 Jan 2019, 8:30 pm

Be some very brave MPs who agreed to support another vote on this one.Will of the people and all that .They should be representing the common follk like us
I genuinely do not fear a brexit which requires some urgent last minute arrangements it might be a bit messy for say 3 months but nothing is over complex if us/they don't want it to be.Ferrys will operate planes will fly and red peppers will be on the shelves.
Its just a operational thing we are not going to war.
Anyway weekend starts here footy tomorrow dinner and we will all be frozen to death by the middle of next week(according to the papers) so it will not matter.


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Post by Diggers on Fri 18 Jan 2019, 9:07 pm

Dyna, you know you were on about Corbyn. That he can say anything and promise the world. That is exactly what you are doing with no deal. That’s exactly what you sound like.
Have you had a look at all the signed free trade deals that would be the easiest job in the world to replicate (Liam Fox’s words, what a toll he is by the way). Won’t take long to look at them. There are none.
It won’t happen, because thankfully we have a parliamentary democracy who actuality realise what a complete disaster it would be.

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Post by pedro on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 12:03 am

Digs, by “giving back sovereign control to our Parliament“ is meant from the EU, not from the people. You don’t overrule the people. Nothing has changed since the refrendum in terms of how the UK views EU, nothing. It was a binary vote. Any exit deal would be the result of negotiations, everybody knew that.

You can have a go at Cameron for calling the regerendum in the first place, and jeopardising the countrys future to please Tory backbenchers, but hey, THAT was parliamentary democracy. Mind you, a country has the politicians it deserves.

Similarly I’d assume you wouldn’t call for a new GE if Corbyn were to become PM and didn’t deliver a trotskyist UK the day after.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 8:23 am

Diggers wrote:Dyna, you know you were on about Corbyn. That he can say anything and promise the world. That is exactly what you are doing with no deal. That’s exactly what you sound like.
Have you had a look at all the signed free trade deals that would be the easiest job in the world to replicate (Liam Fox’s words, what a toll he is by the way). Won’t take long to look at them. There are none.
It won’t happen, because thankfully we have a parliamentary democracy who actuality realise what a complete disaster it would be.

I always feel the urge to give him a quid when I pass him.

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Post by beninho on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 8:30 am

Thing is nothing will change. This country is good with apathy. If brexit is knocked on the head, some will moan, a few may make a scene, the vast majority will move on.

If an election is held today, tories would probably win, tory brexiteers wont suddenly go ukip in droves, same with lavour leavers, remainers from both sides wont go lib dem in droves, who are the only remain party.

Nothing changes in English politics.

If she cant get a deal through, and no deal is a Poopie show she cans it all.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 8:33 am

beninho wrote:Thing is nothing will change. This country is good with apathy. If brexit is knocked on the head, some will moan, a few may make a scene, the vast majority will move on.

If an election is held today, tories would probably win, tory brexiteers wont suddenly go ukip in droves, same with lavour leavers, remainers from both sides wont go lib dem in droves, who are the only remain party.

Nothing changes in English politics.

If she cant get a deal through, and no deal is a Poopie show she cans it all.

Shocked It's like the whole NI issue never really happened

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 8:35 am

Pedro, that’s all still revolving around what you consider to be fair. You cannot say that a law made under parliamentary democracy is not democratic. Again, you can complain it’s unfair, but it would not be undemocratic, it’s just simply the wrong word.
Re Corbyn, the whole point is it’s not whether I call for another GE (or whether I call for another referendum). If a Labour Govt came into power the opposition party can call for a vote if no confidence and follow due process to attempt to have another election. Because that’s how our democracy works. Results from referendum are no more subject to amendment or reversal than any other law. In fact that exactly what happened with the EU.
It’s about Parliament. Though it took Gina Miler to ensure that Parliament did indeed have the ability to exercise its power. Thank god she did.


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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 8:38 am

How well did the vote of no confidence work Diggers? Corbyn is full of bluster and no substance whatsoever. He knew he would lose that vote. I don't actually think that rotten toothed goon actually wants to be PM even if the country was stupid enough to vote for him.

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Post by beninho on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 8:54 am

The no confidence vote was a joke. Always going to lose because the dup had been paid off.

Tory mps have no confidence in the leader of the party, they have no confidence in her brexit deal, but have confidence in her as the leader of the government. It makes no sense.

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Post by beninho on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:01 am

Corbyn, is basically as stuck in the middle as May. Heartlands voted leave, and cities voted remain. Can't keep them both happy. And can't back a second referendum. I also think its more likely labour leavers would vote tory rather then ukip, while tory remainers probably wouldn't vote labour.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:05 am

They had to call the no confidence vote. It’s all part of a process laid out at conference. If you say plan A is to push for a GE, then instead you push for a people vote, you get hammered. That’s done now, the focus is on the other alternatives (as per the conference statement) that include another referendum.
Nothing really matters until the 29th now, it’s dead time. The red lines aren’t going anywhere and none of the other leaders will accept the deal without that happening.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:07 am

beninho wrote:Corbyn, is basically as stuck in the middle as May. Heartlands voted leave, and cities voted remain. Can't keep them both happy. And can't back a second referendum. I also think its more likely labour leavers would vote tory rather then ukip, while tory remainers probably wouldn't vote labour.

Hilariously enough, the ghastly SNP actually help keep Corbyn out of power. Labour simply can't get elected with Corbyn in charge, their naïve members might love Corbyn, but the voters don't. He's done himself so much harm in the past with all his  terrorist fraternising, anti enterprise views and Brexit tap dancing that he can't hope to get in, he's not even making gains on the worst Tory government since WW1.
Labour desperately need a new leader who is in line with the views of the party and who would actually provide a viable alternative to the current government who wouldn't turn the place into Venezuela.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:24 am

I will happily make a £100 bet with anyone on here that of the two main parties, the only one that will force a change of leadership will be the Tories. I guess it helps me that the frightfully ghastly (who uses those kind of words anymore, I could imagine maybe Rees Mogg uttering them, guess that makes sense) May actually had to tell the 1922 Committee she would resign before a GE, such is the lack of faith in her. Anyone want to take me up on that?

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:39 am

Diggers wrote:I will happily make a £100 bet with anyone on here that of the two main parties, the only one that will force a change of leadership will be the Tories. I guess it helps me that the frightfully ghastly (who uses those kind of words anymore, I could imagine maybe Rees Mogg uttering them, guess that makes sense) May  actually had to tell the 1922 Committee she would resign before a GE, such is the lack of faith in her. Anyone want to take me up on that?


No one is disagreeing with you on that Diggers in regards to the Tories getting rid of their leader, but that's the irony isn't it? It doesn't change the fact that in order to stand a chance of election, Labour REQUIRE a change of leadership. I don't care if the lickspittle membership think Steptoe is the best leader since going on strike went out of fashion or not. Corbyn isn't working. I can't even imagine Ed Mllliband being this bad.

No one is saying that the Tories don't also need a step change, but at least May has conceded that she won't lead the party into the next election. Why won't the terminally ineffective  and chronic Corbyn do likewise? He's a dead duck of a leader, completely unlikeable to most apart from to his fawning, insipid membership , massively divisive, totally hypocritical and doesn't appeal to the public, so how can he think his leadership is tenable? The guy is a relic of the 1970's, and like his teeth, Abbot and McDonald, should have stayed there.

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Post by beninho on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:49 am

Corbyn has had one election. As leader his party had 3.5m more votes and gained 30 seats. The previous leader was ed miliband. You clearly can't say miliband would be better because he wasn't.

You may not like him, but his record speaks for itself. He is a fantastic campaigner, which is why all eggs in that basket.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:51 am

No, the irony is that you choose to ignore the fact that one leader is getting slaughtered by her own party, whilst criticising the leader of another party who isn’t. Just grow a pair and take the bet.
Let’s face it, with your track record on predictions, we can now all pretty much assume that Labour wins the next election.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:57 am

That's precisely my point Diggers, the sycophancy that members of the party are giving to  Corbyn flies in the face of how useless and ineffective he is.


BOTH parties are in need of new leaders, yet Labour as usual carry on as if it's all going great. Corbyn has done a terrible job of being an effective opposition, the guys a laughingstock.

Why would I take a bet that I agree with? You're hardly putting yourself out on a limb there are you? It's like seeing a 2-1 football result and then predicting the result will be 2-1 The Tories have ALREADY said they're going to have a new leader because May has said she won't go beyond the next GE, the question is, given how woeful Corbyn has been, why are they not doing the same?

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 9:59 am

beninho wrote:Corbyn has had one election. As leader his party had 3.5m more votes and gained 30 seats. The previous leader was ed miliband. You clearly can't say miliband would be better because he wasn't.  

You may not like him, but his record speaks for itself. He is a fantastic campaigner, which is why all eggs in that basket.

Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh

You could have put a tailor's dummy up against the current Tory government as long as it had a Labour rosette on it and improved on the previous election. Truth is he was STILL nowhere near winning and he's even less popular now.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 10:14 am

super_realist wrote:That's precisely my point Diggers, the sycophancy that members of the party are giving to  Corbyn flies in the face of how useless and ineffective he is.


BOTH parties are in need of new leaders, yet Labour as usual carry on as if it's all going great. Corbyn has done a terrible job of being an effective opposition, the guys a laughingstock.

Why would I take a bet that I agree with? You're hardly putting yourself out on a limb there are you? It's like seeing a 2-1 football result and then predicting the result will be 2-1 The Tories have ALREADY said they're going to have a new leader because May has said she won't go beyond the next GE, the question is, given how woeful Corbyn has been, why are they not doing the same?

RM, you’ve literally said a few posts ago that he was completely out of line with his party’s views? Suddenly they bow down to him. I think you are a tad confused as to how the Labour Party operates. You don’t know their policies, we know that. If you think Corbyn has done a bad job then you either don’t take enough interest in politics to remember the state of the party during their leadership battle or you’re so obsessed with the way people look that you choose to block it out. Either way is a bit sad.

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Post by beninho on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 10:35 am

Realist, what position do you think he should be taking at present. You are very good at having a go, but haven't shown any opinions on what he should say. Give us your views.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 10:40 am

I have said he should resign and actually have someone in charge who represents the actual view of the party. What on earth is the point in having a flip-flopper in charge of the country? It's absolutely retarded. Actually having a remainer in charge would appeal more to the voting public. Corbyn is a toxic brand and he's a consistent failure.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 10:44 am

Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:That's precisely my point Diggers, the sycophancy that members of the party are giving to  Corbyn flies in the face of how useless and ineffective he is.


BOTH parties are in need of new leaders, yet Labour as usual carry on as if it's all going great. Corbyn has done a terrible job of being an effective opposition, the guys a laughingstock.

Why would I take a bet that I agree with? You're hardly putting yourself out on a limb there are you? It's like seeing a 2-1 football result and then predicting the result will be 2-1 The Tories have ALREADY said they're going to have a new leader because May has said she won't go beyond the next GE, the question is, given how woeful Corbyn has been, why are they not doing the same?

RM, you’ve literally said a few posts ago that he was completely out of line with his party’s views? Suddenly they bow down to him. I think you are a tad confused as to how the Labour Party operates. You don’t know their policies, we know that. If you think Corbyn has done a bad job then you either don’t take enough interest in politics to remember the state of the party during their leadership battle or you’re so obsessed with the way people look that you choose to block it out. Either way is a bit sad.

Well there's a clear view that sufficient members support him to keep him in power, but it's clearly at odds with Labour voters to have a Brexiteer in charge of the country, how can that unite a party?
Corbyn has a massive image problem due to his shifty past. Labour need to appeal to floating voters, but you couldn't have much more of an unlikeable, pr1ck than Corbyn in charge. Why would anyone vote for such an objectionable man with such laughable views? THey need an actual Labour man, not a relic from 70's unionism and anti nuclear marches.

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Post by beninho on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 10:51 am

You think its at odds with labour voters if he backs brexit?

Reports have cone out that by blocking brexit or calling for a 2nd ref. It would have an impact on labour voters. Traditional labour areas voted leave and still want to leave. He is on a very fine line. Labour is as split as the tories!

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 10:55 am

Sorry, again. Last post sycophants. Now not representing party view? What is it you are struggling to say? If you are trying to talk about the PLP, and doing a very poor job of explaining yourself, then how many policies as he flip flopped on. What do you think the PLP policies are?
Here are just a few of the current Govts u turns:
Pensions
Free school meals
Public sector pay
Dementia tax
Winter fuel
Electricity price cap
Minimum stake gambling role out
About 10 around universal credit alone
So, come on, where are the similar Labour policy flip flops? Where have the PLP backbenchers forced policy change the way the Tories have many times?
Come on RM, show some actual knowledge, enlighten us. Or are we just back to Corbyn has ghastly teeth?

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 10:58 am

They need an actual Labour man? FFS, what even is that. And why do they have to be a man? Any other prerequisites needed apart from gender? I know we have to take into account dentistry.

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 11:20 am

Well, for a start Diggers, not some relic from the Michael Foot/Scargill Academy of Labour, not someone stuck in the 70's, not a terrorist fraterniser, not someone who would employ Abbot or McDonald in ministerial roles, not someone who is directly opposed to the party's line on Europe. How's that for a start?

Someone who can give a CREDIBLE alternative to the Tories, because at the moment even in the current basket case of British politics, Labour are nowhere near government.

Do you even rate Corbyn as a potential leader? If so, why, and don't say he's an "effective campaigner".

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Post by super_realist on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 11:22 am

Diggers wrote:Sorry, again. Last post sycophants. Now not representing party view? What is it you are struggling to say? If you are trying to talk about the PLP, and doing a very poor job of explaining yourself, then how many policies as he flip flopped on. What do you think the PLP policies are?
Here are just a few of the current Govts u turns:
Pensions
Free school meals
Public sector pay
Dementia tax
Winter fuel
Electricity price cap
Minimum stake gambling role out
About 10 around universal credit alone
So, come on, where are the similar Labour policy flip flops? Where have the PLP backbenchers forced policy change the way the Tories have many times?
Come on RM, show some actual knowledge, enlighten us. Or are we just back to Corbyn has ghastly  teeth?

I'm talking about Corbyn's apparent flip flopping on Europe actually Diggers, the fact he's changes his mind depending on where he happens to be speaking.
I don't see anything wrong with Government U Turns if they aren't popular or don't work, do you?

Why are you engaging in "whatabouterry" anyway for? I'm not here to defend the Tories, I'm talking SPECIFICALLY about how terrible Corbyn is at getting Labour close to government, and you bring up the Tories, it's not relevant really.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 11:26 am

Sorry, you seem to have completely missed out all of the Labour u turns. Come on, it can’t be that hard, must be the easiest job in the world. Where are they, where is this open revolt? Show us what you know? You don’t even know the policies, I guess that makes it hard.
So, why does it have to be a man again?

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 11:36 am

Wow, so all we have is Europe. I wonder if anyone else is having any problems getting everyone to agree on Brexit? That's it. That's what you've got? It's amazing how you've just criticise one person for being a flip flopper and then talked it up as a good thing in terms of policy. Even by your own standards you've been on fire this morning. The Labour party fawn to Corbyn but they are all in revolt. Flip flopping is a bad, bad thing...but u-turns are clever!! Labour has to have a real Labour man...not a real Labour woman, a real Labour man. Outstanding.

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Post by dynamark on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 11:44 am

Digs bet is a non starter as May has already said she will stand aside next election fair enough.
I listen to Digs undoubted enthusiasm with interest and the question is this.
How does he and other labour support think their lives will improve in any major way under a labour administration?
I hate to mention but JC hasn't exactly been shy in meeting some slightly controversial folk in the past so why not have a nice quiet meeting with he Prime minister of the UK.Plenty of labour MPs happy to ride the wave that Corbyn started but they will be sitting at home this weekend wondering what to do next.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 19 Jan 2019, 12:13 pm

You want to talk about being shy in meeting controversial people? How about having a confidence and supply vote with a party as right wing as the DUP? Or are you pro anti-abortionist policy and only favour straight marriage (you don't seem taht kind of guy to me, Dyna, certainly hope not)? How about selling arms to the Saudis so they can bomb the Yemen.
How do I think lives would improve? By actually giving a toss about people. They have a policy document, Dyna. Read it if you are interested. But of your default position is that social support is, by and large completely unnecessary in modern Britain, then me and you are never really going to agree are we?
But it's a question I guess, I think exactly the same about Brexit and in particular a no deal Brexit. There is no policy for that of course, just a blind leap of faith based backed up with a few trite comments like "it'll all be fine". I've heard it won't be a disaster as well, well, good to know the bar is set high. Still, we stop those nasty foreigners coming in I guess. Though could be a bit of a problem actually getting anything done, but we can worry about that one later as well. And it won't actually stop anyone, because the Govt has flip flopped on its immigration figures as well...because immigration was always a red herring.
Good old nation state populism, guaranteed to end well. Just look at the 20th century!

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Post by Diggers on Sun 20 Jan 2019, 9:31 pm

How’s this for a sporting change of fortunes. 10 days ago Guincamp beat PSG 2-1 in the French Cup to make the semis. Yesterday PSG beat them 9-0!

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Mon 21 Jan 2019, 9:23 am

Diggers wrote:How’s this for a sporting change of fortunes. 10 days ago Guincamp beat PSG 2-1 in the French Cup to make the semis. Yesterday PSG beat them 9-0!

Flip floppers. U-turners. Ineffective opposition. Chronic leadership. They should all be replaced/face a vote of confidence/be sacked.


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Post by pedro on Mon 21 Jan 2019, 9:33 am

super_realist wrote:
He's a dead duck of a leader, completely unlikeable to most apart from to his fawning, insipid membership , massively divisive, totally hypocritical and doesn't appeal to the public, so how can he think his leadership is tenable?
You forgot to add misogynist and anti-semitic.

But enough about Trump..

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