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Post by super_realist on Mon 10 Dec 2018, 8:40 am

First topic message reminder :

Diggers wrote:On another note I’ve been teaching Spanish as part of my job this year, tricky when I don’t speak a word...or didn’t. Been using Duolingo for 3 weeks, still very early but amazing how quickly it helps you pick things up. Also asked the wife for some CD’s for Xmas to listen to on my commute. There is a Spanish guy who works for the premises team so when I feel a bit more confident Ill try some conversational Spanish with him.
Anyway, early but that’s my new year resolution, to follow it through and at least be competent, partly to help with my job and partly because Uve always wanted to learn a language, partly because I really think learning new stuff keeps your brain fresher.
Anyone else have something they really want to learn to do?


I'm not trying to be confrontational here Diggers, but how on earth can a school let someone without the skills in a subject to teach it? I can see how someone could blag teaching something like art, PE, English etc, but not a language. I suppose if it's at Primary Level you could teach counting to ten, asking where the railway station is etc.
I presume it's not secondary school?

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Post by beninho on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 8:42 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:To be fair, Dyna, you don’t trust them but are willing to trust your own judgment, which flies in the face of all sensible people economic predictions, and align yourself with the ERG and DUP (complete nutters the lot of them) in supporting a no deal Brexit. Hey ho.
Employment figures are the easiest stat to skew, I’m more interested in employment terms and pay. Not exactly been good news for the economy in the past few weeks. Growth rate predictions plummeting.

Breaking news is that you can now add Honda to that list. That’ll be 3.5k jobs in this area directly and goodness knows how many indirectly. I do find it really difficult trying to square Govt ministers stories that we’ve arrived at some kind of UK jobs utopia and announcement after announcement about closures and job losses. Something just doesn’t add up!!!

Shame about the jobs, but I don't think the Honda Civic will be missed. One of the ugliest cars ever made.

By the way, the Honda boss has said this is not a Brexit related decision.

Probably be missed by the people employed to make it.

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Post by JAS on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 9:25 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
dynamark wrote:
I'm still thinking the electorate would not go with a very left situation al la JC and JM whatever the obvious faults of the Conservatives.My take is to work hard for yourself and family and the politics will not make much difference.Dont rely on others in particular politicians who want to change the world.  

Yep, pretty much the predominant view Dyna although there is no concrete evidence that a strong left of center Govt would be as horrifically untrustworthy as people fear. The closest the country ever came to a real Socialist Government was the Attlee Govt that rebuilt the country after the war and created the NHS. “How dare they be so radical as govern for the many and not the few, we must make sure that never happens again” said the politics professors at Eton and the like....probably.

A big glee problem for Labour though and at least Blair recognised it and tried to address it is those of us who do work hard for ourselves and expect to live in a meritocracy struggle with the perception that Labour are more interested  in protecting the lazy and feckless than rewarding hard workers.



Labour have changed their position. Now they are the party for the many, not the Jew.



Does anyone, anywhere have any specific examples of Corbyn being deliberately anti Semitic? Hint...criticising Israeli policy atrocities in Palestine doesn’t really cut it as anti-semitism. Or...could it all just be heresay, predominately from Blairite Margaret Hodge and her cronies??

Incidentally, I’m sure Bojo and Gove would have chastised in the strongest terms that rabid anti-Semite Steve Bannon when they met a few months ago...why should the Labour Party have a monopoly on unfounded allegations.

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Post by pedro on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 9:35 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:To be fair, Dyna, you don’t trust them but are willing to trust your own judgment, which flies in the face of all sensible people economic predictions, and align yourself with the ERG and DUP (complete nutters the lot of them) in supporting a no deal Brexit. Hey ho.
Employment figures are the easiest stat to skew, I’m more interested in employment terms and pay. Not exactly been good news for the economy in the past few weeks. Growth rate predictions plummeting.

Breaking news is that you can now add Honda to that list. That’ll be 3.5k jobs in this area directly and goodness knows how many indirectly. I do find it really difficult trying to square Govt ministers stories that we’ve arrived at some kind of UK jobs utopia and announcement after announcement about closures and job losses. Something just doesn’t add up!!!

Shame about the jobs, but I don't think the Honda Civic will be missed. One of the ugliest cars ever made.

By the way, the Honda boss has said this is not a Brexit related decision.
Bit arrogant. People are losing their jobs.
And of course this is Brexit related. If it wasn't, the Honda management didn't do their home work properly. Probably not the sole reason but should play a part.

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Post by JAS on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:05 am

pedro wrote:
super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:To be fair, Dyna, you don’t trust them but are willing to trust your own judgment, which flies in the face of all sensible people economic predictions, and align yourself with the ERG and DUP (complete nutters the lot of them) in supporting a no deal Brexit. Hey ho.
Employment figures are the easiest stat to skew, I’m more interested in employment terms and pay. Not exactly been good news for the economy in the past few weeks. Growth rate predictions plummeting.

Breaking news is that you can now add Honda to that list. That’ll be 3.5k jobs in this area directly and goodness knows how many indirectly. I do find it really difficult trying to square Govt ministers stories that we’ve arrived at some kind of UK jobs utopia and announcement after announcement about closures and job losses. Something just doesn’t add up!!!

Shame about the jobs, but I don't think the Honda Civic will be missed. One of the ugliest cars ever made.

By the way, the Honda boss has said this is not a Brexit related decision.
Bit arrogant. People are losing their jobs.
And of course this is Brexit related. If it wasn't, the Honda management didn't do their home work properly. Probably not the sole reason but should play a part.

Have to agree with Pedro, wtf does it matter how ugly a car is?? Seems a bizarre comment given the 3.5k jobs are disappearing down the plug hole. Obviously it’ll be a lot more than 3.5k once the related feeder companies are factored in, then the effect on the local area in terms of retail and other industries.

I could be equally arrogant and say “well Swindon voted Tory and for Brexit so they deserve what they get” but that would smack of crass insensitivity of the highest order...so I won’t.

For the record I had 2 civics and a CRv spanning 20 years and not even a hint of mechanical problems (call me picky but I’d put mechanical reliability way way way above superficial looks in the qualities I’d look for in a car) so in broader terms Honda WILL be missed in the car marketplace.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:55 am

Seems the modern car market (sure it’s not alone) relies on parts made in multiple countries seamlessly moving in and out of countries with no friction. That’s the model for the modern supply chain. Why would you base yourself somewhere that makes that process much harder?

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Post by McLaren on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 11:02 am

Diggers wrote:Seems the modern car market (sure it’s not alone) relies on parts made in multiple countries seamlessly moving in and out of countries with no friction. That’s the model for the modern supply chain. Why would you base yourself somewhere that makes that process much harder?

It's almost like you would want your country to be part of a large customs union that makes this as easy as possible!
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Post by JAS on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 11:52 am

McLaren wrote:
Diggers wrote:Seems the modern car market (sure it’s not alone) relies on parts made in multiple countries seamlessly moving in and out of countries with no friction. That’s the model for the modern supply chain. Why would you base yourself somewhere that makes that process much harder?

It's almost like you would want your country to be part of a large customs union that makes this as easy as possible!

Strangely, the rampant Brexiteers that normally pollute my Facebook feed are rather quieter this morning.
With regard to supply chain logistics that is globalism in action and has been facilitated by the neoliberal politics of the past 30 odd years, a left of center Govt would have the same chance of fighting the Honda decision as a right of center one i.e. Zero!! It’s a commercial and dare I say patriotic decision by Honda to production back home, at least the Japs can do that. When Thatcher dragged us kicking and screaming into her union bashing neoliberal panacea, manafacturing wasn’t considered worthy (except for the odd jap car plant) and as such was decimated. The Service industries would fuel our prosperity...or so we were told. Look around you now, the last remnants of manufacturing are disappearing and service industry jobs are also migrating (mostly but not exclusively) to the Indian sub continent. So for everybody that fears a left of center Govt have a look up your average high street and look at what 4 decades of neoliberal capitalism has done (yes Blair subscribed more than willingly to a globalist neoliberal agenda) . How do you change it? Hmmm maybe the time to ask that question was 35 years ago!!

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Post by pedro on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 12:06 pm

So a leftist govt would have closed the internet and fenced the country long time ago?

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Post by McLaren on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 1:09 pm

Jas

Are you saying that leaving the EU will lessen the extent to which the UK is subject to neoliberal ideals?
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Post by JAS on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 1:36 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

Are you saying that leaving the EU will lessen the extent to which the UK is subject to neoliberal ideals?

I might have thought that at one point :-/

Also, in theory yes it does open up the potentional for an old style Socialist agenda however nearby neoliberal superstates would try to crush any chance of such a state succeeding and exposing theirs  as “by the few for the few”. ;-)

All a bit by the by as we don’t elect Socialist Governments as a rule....except the Jocks!

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Post by JAS on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 3:44 pm

Meanwhile, over the pond, Bernie’s for another go. What do our Statesiders think his chances are this time? a) to get the Democratic nomination b) to get the whitehouse or c) to exchange thousands of emails with a new Russian girlfriend that will will go all metoo on him at the most crucial part of the campaign??

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 4:16 pm

a).No chance.
b).See a).
c).His campaign already has too much metoo baggage from 2016.
d).Plus his wife has been over her head in some dubious bank loans for a (now defunct) college she was president of.


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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 5:34 pm

You’d say he has no chance, but if an utterly retarded cnut like Trumpton can get in then surely all bets are off.

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Post by dynamark on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 5:49 pm

Did anyone spot that employment is at a new high.Funny that
No consolation if you are currently at Honda in Swindon but couple of years to adjust and big change in the car market without doubt.
Say what you like and we all do about Trumpy but he is a high achiever.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 6:08 pm

Yep, the big change in the car market is that there won’t be one.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 6:27 pm

The Govts also warned that there was almost certainly to be a drop off in employment levels (which are ridiculously easily skewed) because of...guess what...Brexit!!
But don’t worry, in a few years (though forecasts say to count in decades rather than years) we’ll all at best be back to where we are now.
We can’t even put a new train timetable in place without causing carnage, but we can completely renogiate how we trade with the world, no problem...although we are currently failing miserably to negotiate any deals.
By the way, average time to negotiate a trade deal, around 5-6 years.

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Post by pedro on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 6:34 pm

Brexit is not about common sense. It’s about no sense.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 7:36 pm

Big games tonight, Kwini. Wins needed to stay in touch with automatic promotion, my money is on another draw for us.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 7:47 pm

Agreed Digs, Barnsley too.
Anything other than 3 pts for us will be a nail in the coffin.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 8:01 pm

Three goals in 10 minutes!

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Post by McLaren on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 9:13 pm

Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.
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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 9:53 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Agreed Digs, Barnsley too.
Anything other than 3 pts for us will be a nail in the coffin.

Good night for us, frustrating for you, think that’s 6 or 7 without a win? Still, 46 game season, few twists and turns yet I’m sure.

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Post by Diggers on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 9:55 pm

McLaren wrote:Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.

Be interesting to see how they justify her as not being stateless. I think this story will run for a while.

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Post by pedro on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:06 pm

At least she “supports “some” British values and is willing to rehabilitate and stuff...”

I guess the British values she supports is to be taken literally: Welfare.

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Post by ralphjohn69 on Tue 19 Feb 2019, 10:20 pm

She should never be allowed back in the country, quite frankly I'm amazed that anyone thinks she should.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:54 am

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
dynamark wrote:
I'm still thinking the electorate would not go with a very left situation al la JC and JM whatever the obvious faults of the Conservatives.My take is to work hard for yourself and family and the politics will not make much difference.Dont rely on others in particular politicians who want to change the world.  

Yep, pretty much the predominant view Dyna although there is no concrete evidence that a strong left of center Govt would be as horrifically untrustworthy as people fear. The closest the country ever came to a real Socialist Government was the Attlee Govt that rebuilt the country after the war and created the NHS. “How dare they be so radical as govern for the many and not the few, we must make sure that never happens again” said the politics professors at Eton and the like....probably.

A big glee problem for Labour though and at least Blair recognised it and tried to address it is those of us who do work hard for ourselves and expect to live in a meritocracy struggle with the perception that Labour are more interested  in protecting the lazy and feckless than rewarding hard workers.



Labour have changed their position. Now they are the party for the many, not the Jew.



Does anyone, anywhere have any specific examples of Corbyn being deliberately anti Semitic? Hint...criticising Israeli policy atrocities in Palestine doesn’t really cut it as anti-semitism. Or...could it all just be heresay, predominately from Blairite Margaret Hodge and her cronies??

Incidentally, I’m sure Bojo and Gove would have chastised in the strongest terms that rabid anti-Semite Steve Bannon when they met a few months ago...why should the Labour Party have a monopoly on unfounded allegations.

Didn't Corbyn give praise to an anti-Semitic mural, wasn't he a member of anti semitic Facebook groups, refusal to expel Ken Livingstone over blatant anti semitism ? Then there's his support for Hamas too, which not directly anti semitic, is not really the sort of stance a politician from the UK should be expressing. Anyway, I don't think any has claimed that Corbyn is anti semitic, but he's hardly doing anything to condemn or discard it from his party is he? For months he refused to condemn any of it and only begrudgingly did it in the last 6 months.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:58 am

JAS wrote:
pedro wrote:
super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
Diggers wrote:To be fair, Dyna, you don’t trust them but are willing to trust your own judgment, which flies in the face of all sensible people economic predictions, and align yourself with the ERG and DUP (complete nutters the lot of them) in supporting a no deal Brexit. Hey ho.
Employment figures are the easiest stat to skew, I’m more interested in employment terms and pay. Not exactly been good news for the economy in the past few weeks. Growth rate predictions plummeting.

Breaking news is that you can now add Honda to that list. That’ll be 3.5k jobs in this area directly and goodness knows how many indirectly. I do find it really difficult trying to square Govt ministers stories that we’ve arrived at some kind of UK jobs utopia and announcement after announcement about closures and job losses. Something just doesn’t add up!!!

Shame about the jobs, but I don't think the Honda Civic will be missed. One of the ugliest cars ever made.

By the way, the Honda boss has said this is not a Brexit related decision.
Bit arrogant. People are losing their jobs.
And of course this is Brexit related. If it wasn't, the Honda management didn't do their home work properly. Probably not the sole reason but should play a part.

Have to agree with Pedro, wtf does it matter how ugly a car is?? Seems a bizarre comment given the 3.5k jobs are disappearing down the plug hole. Obviously it’ll be a lot more than 3.5k once the related feeder companies are factored in, then the effect on the local area in terms of retail and other industries.

I could be equally arrogant and say “well Swindon voted Tory and for Brexit so they deserve what they get” but that would smack of crass insensitivity of the highest order...so I won’t.

For the record I had 2 civics and a CRv spanning 20 years and not even a hint of mechanical problems (call me picky but I’d put mechanical reliability way way way above superficial looks in the qualities I’d look for in a car) so in broader terms Honda WILL be missed in the car marketplace.

Could make the claim for any number of cars. I've never had an issue since I got rid of my first banger over 20 years ago. Truth is, no one makes a truly unreliable car anymore.
Either way, the Civic won't disappear, it just won't be made in Britain.

If it was down to Brexit, it would have been a very easy out for the management of Honda. Why wouldn't they use that as an excuse rather than proclaiming it wasn't? They could appear blameless for this, but now they don't. Makes no sense for them to claim it's not Brexit if it was, but I expect you know better than one of the biggest car companies in the world eh JAS/Pedro? Brexit isn't responsible for the changes in the car market and move towards lower emissions, of which Japanese cars are always amongst the worst offenders.
The misleading information about diesel engines is far more to blame than Brexit. You only have to look at Jaguar Land Rover to see that this isn't solely down to Brexit, far more to do with demand for their type of product.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 8:04 am

So SR, you are suddenly pro Brexit? What do you think is the best solution? No deal? May’s deal? A new deal, a referendum?


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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 8:06 am

McLaren wrote:Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.

Why is this a low Mac? If she's a dual citizen of Bangladesh (or is eligible), why would you want her back here, and why do you think this is a low for the Tories? Do you seriously think no other party would do this? Over 100 people have had their UK citizenship revoked this year, and Labour have revoked citizenship in the past too.

The only issue here is if she is ONLY a UK citizen as you cannot make someone stateless, and as she has the right to appeal, then the UK government had nothing to lose.

The UK government has no duty to do a single thing for her at present as there is no embassy/consulate in the country. It's up to her to get to one.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 8:18 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.

Why is this a low Mac? If she's a dual citizen of Bangladesh (or is eligible), why would you want her back here, and why do you think this is a low for the Tories? Do you seriously think no other party would do this? Over 100 people have had their UK citizenship revoked this year, and Labour have revoked citizenship in the past too.

The only issue here is if she is ONLY a UK citizen as you cannot make someone stateless, and as she has the right to appeal, then the UK government had nothing to lose.

The UK government has no duty to do a single thing for her at present as there is no embassy/consulate in the country. It's up to her to get to one.

You would want her back as she was raised and radicalised in the U.K., not Bangladesh. To refuse this is an abdication of responsibility and far more likely to perpetuate an overseas threat and to lead to more resentment and radicalised youths in the U.K. She should be held accountable in the U.K.
Also, there is a clear policy with people who have gone to fight for ISIS. If they hold dual nationality with another European country, their U.K. passport is not withdrawn. If that dual nationality is with say Pakistan or Bangladesh (neither of which are rogue states), the UK passport is. Clearly there is a contradiction in place.



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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 8:42 am

It's a reasonable point, but how much harm can she do from Bangladesh?

Also, we don't actually know if she was "radicalised" or sought it out for herself.

If what you say is right, then withdrawing her UK passport in light of her Bangladesh presumed citizen is exactly what you've said protocol is. So what's the problem (presuming she has the right to that citizenship?)

Pretty sure the reason if she had dual citizenship with an EU country that her passport could not be withdrawn is down to EU law, and therefore not a contradiction.

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Post by beninho on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 8:52 am

The child was born to a British citizen. Risking the life of a new born baby is pretty despicable.

If she was groomed by an older man and lured into the sex trade but could see no issues with the person who groomed get, would we treat her as a victim?

This is politics pandering to popular opinion. She should be brought back, arrestedand tried for whatever crime she has commited. A court of law should make a ruling not an mp pandering to the right wing racialists.

Anyway, the case will be challenged, the home office will lose, she will return, but it won't be as big a news story and javids plan of looking tough and right wing will have gone on, with his aim of unseating theresa.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 9:01 am

How do we find out if she was radicalised unless we make efforts to find out - which could then assist in stopping the whole radicalisation process.
The fact there has been a protocol on different cases doesn’t make that the right think to do, it simply means the U.K. has abdicated responsibility even more times and should be called out on that.
What harm could she do, well she could now become so embittered she converts others, becomes a suicide bomber, persuades her child to become a jihadist, any number of things we cannot control and simply choose to take no responsibility for.
As far as I know the passport situation is not down to EU law and has also been applied to US and Australian cases. It’s a clear choice that says if we can get away with abdicating responsibility we will, if we get pulled up on that by another more powerful nation, we won’t.

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Post by JAS on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 9:30 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
dynamark wrote:
I'm still thinking the electorate would not go with a very left situation al la JC and JM whatever the obvious faults of the Conservatives.My take is to work hard for yourself and family and the politics will not make much difference.Dont rely on others in particular politicians who want to change the world.  

Yep, pretty much the predominant view Dyna although there is no concrete evidence that a strong left of center Govt would be as horrifically untrustworthy as people fear. The closest the country ever came to a real Socialist Government was the Attlee Govt that rebuilt the country after the war and created the NHS. “How dare they be so radical as govern for the many and not the few, we must make sure that never happens again” said the politics professors at Eton and the like....probably.

A big glee problem for Labour though and at least Blair recognised it and tried to address it is those of us who do work hard for ourselves and expect to live in a meritocracy struggle with the perception that Labour are more interested  in protecting the lazy and feckless than rewarding hard workers.



Labour have changed their position. Now they are the party for the many, not the Jew.



Does anyone, anywhere have any specific examples of Corbyn being deliberately anti Semitic? Hint...criticising Israeli policy atrocities in Palestine doesn’t really cut it as anti-semitism. Or...could it all just be heresay, predominately from Blairite Margaret Hodge and her cronies??

Incidentally, I’m sure Bojo and Gove would have chastised in the strongest terms that rabid anti-Semite Steve Bannon when they met a few months ago...why should the Labour Party have a monopoly on unfounded allegations.

Didn't Corbyn give praise to an anti-Semitic mural, wasn't he a member of anti semitic Facebook groups, refusal to expel Ken Livingstone over blatant anti semitism ? Then there's his support for Hamas too, which not directly anti semitic, is not really the sort of stance a politician from the UK should be expressing.  Anyway, I don't think any has claimed that Corbyn is anti semitic, but he's hardly doing anything to condemn or discard it from his party is he? For months he refused to condemn any of it and only begrudgingly did it in the last 6 months.

I thought he got pounded for praising the artist but either way, it’s not in itself anti-Semitic. Look at best you’d have to describe him as a bit insensitive to Jewish sensitivities & concerns.
The whole thing that’s going on here is a widespread witch-hunt/discreditation against a guy who is clearly prepared to take anti-establishment stances and advance a Socialist agenda. The people who run Capitalism in this country don’t like that and will stop at nothing to achieve their aim of “neutralising” him. The anti-Semitic flank is seen as a valid way of advancing those aims and quite honestly it doesn’t take that much working out.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 9:43 am

I think we have to accept that their is a very toxic element within Momentum, and the leadership have not responded as robustly as they should to stamping this out. Any form of racism is clearly not acceptable. Momentum could be the undoing of a lot of positive progress.
To tar JC as some kind of anti Semite is simply Daily Mail readership bollox.

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Post by JAS on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 10:13 am

Diggers wrote:I think we have to accept that their is a very toxic element within Momentum, and the leadership have not responded as robustly as they should to stamping this out. Any form of racism is clearly not acceptable. Momentum could be the undoing of a lot of positive progress.
To tar JC as some kind of anti Semite is simply Daily Mail readership bollox.

There is unfortunately, I think the Blairites exagerrate it but it is there in the first place for them to exaggerate. If McDonnell wants a big listening exercise as he says then that is the big thing that they’l need take take from it. Like I’ve said before, if Corbyn is serious about winning power then he needs an Alastair Campbell like figure to manage both the media and momentum.

In terms of getting over the current mess I think he needs to go for the jugular on the Independent Groups. Why are they domiciled in Panama? Who’s funding them? Anybody else want to join them? Don’t hang about, go now!!
I do think we’ve got to the point with Corbyn where we need to see him come out fighting with the smack of firm leadership. Doesn’t need to become a dictatorial maniac and lose his consensual approach completely but the electorate need to see that he can have a hard edge when required.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 11:41 am

So three Tories jump ship as well, interesting. I like Soubry, not much of her politics obviously, though at least she sees sense on Brexit, but could imagine having a great debate over a few drinks with her. Eleven doesn’t seem many MPs, but it’s one more than the DUP have, in a hung Parliament they have some leverage for a while.

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Post by McLaren on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 11:56 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.

Why is this a low Mac? If she's a dual citizen of Bangladesh (or is eligible), why would you want her back here, and why do you think this is a low for the Tories? Do you seriously think no other party would do this? Over 100 people have had their UK citizenship revoked this year, and Labour have revoked citizenship in the past too.

The only issue here is if she is ONLY a UK citizen as you cannot make someone stateless, and as she has the right to appeal, then the UK government had nothing to lose.

The UK government has no duty to do a single thing for her at present as there is no embassy/consulate in the country. It's up to her to get to one.

Not sure why you are going down the whataboutery route again. Especially when you know my votes in recent years have gone the greens.


As for Shamima Begum, I am not sure what harm can come of showing a 19 year old with a child a little compassion until the circumstances of how she came to fall to the hands of terrorists has been established. Worst case scenario is you have to send her to jail and not bungalow dweller is harmed.
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Post by JAS on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 12:30 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.

Why is this a low Mac? If she's a dual citizen of Bangladesh (or is eligible), why would you want her back here, and why do you think this is a low for the Tories? Do you seriously think no other party would do this? Over 100 people have had their UK citizenship revoked this year, and Labour have revoked citizenship in the past too.

The only issue here is if she is ONLY a UK citizen as you cannot make someone stateless, and as she has the right to appeal, then the UK government had nothing to lose.

The UK government has no duty to do a single thing for her at present as there is no embassy/consulate in the country. It's up to her to get to one.

Not sure why you are going down the whataboutery route again.  Especially when you know my votes in recent years have gone the greens.


As for Shamima Begum, I am not sure what harm can come of showing a 19 year old with a child a little compassion until the circumstances of how she came to fall to the hands of terrorists has been established.  Worst case scenario is you have to send her to jail and not bungalow dweller is harmed.

I can’t help thinking she’s not the only one in that situation that’s been painted for us over the past few days. I think her case has been highlighted and given blanket coverage to whip up a bit of nationalistic jingoism and make the Home Sec look ever so patriotic when he revoked citizenship “Bravo Sajid, well done - see weak opposition parties - this is how we deal with traitor scum” I don’t fall for any of that stage managed Poopie but when all is said and done she is still a “wrong ‘un” Jeez when we were 15, making a “mistake” was getting caught steaming drunk down the park - not jetting off to join a terrorist caliphate.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 12:36 pm

I am hoping the new independent group call themselves the bungalow party.It would be modern and appropriate give a political home to anyone who has ever lived in or aspired to a bungalow life.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 1:18 pm

JAS wrote:
McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.

Why is this a low Mac? If she's a dual citizen of Bangladesh (or is eligible), why would you want her back here, and why do you think this is a low for the Tories? Do you seriously think no other party would do this? Over 100 people have had their UK citizenship revoked this year, and Labour have revoked citizenship in the past too.

The only issue here is if she is ONLY a UK citizen as you cannot make someone stateless, and as she has the right to appeal, then the UK government had nothing to lose.

The UK government has no duty to do a single thing for her at present as there is no embassy/consulate in the country. It's up to her to get to one.

Not sure why you are going down the whataboutery route again.  Especially when you know my votes in recent years have gone the greens.


As for Shamima Begum, I am not sure what harm can come of showing a 19 year old with a child a little compassion until the circumstances of how she came to fall to the hands of terrorists has been established.  Worst case scenario is you have to send her to jail and not bungalow dweller is harmed.

I can’t help thinking she’s not the only one in that situation that’s been painted for us over the past few days. I think her case has been highlighted and given blanket coverage to whip up a bit of nationalistic jingoism and make the Home Sec look ever so patriotic when he revoked citizenship “Bravo  Sajid, well done - see weak opposition parties - this is how we deal with traitor scum”  I don’t fall for any of that stage managed Poopie but when all is said and done she is still a “wrong ‘un” Jeez when we were 15, making a “mistake” was getting caught steaming drunk down the park - not jetting off to join a terrorist caliphate.

Has, I’m sure plenty of teenagers went off to fight in the Spanish Civil War, and more recently (and with more similarity) in what was Yugoslavia. Also, we didn’t have the kind of social media influences that kids today have. Sure, you can make a choice not to access it, but life isn’t always that simple. Her father clearly at some stage had some sympathy towards Muslim extremists, so she was to a degree influenced at home.
Again, we need to look at Prevent and why it’s failing to halt extremism of any sort, not just Islamic.

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Post by McLaren on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 2:50 pm

JAS wrote: I don’t fall for any of that stage managed Poopie but when all is said and done she is still a “wrong ‘un” Jeez when we were 15, making a “mistake” was getting caught steaming drunk down the park - not jetting off to join a terrorist caliphate.

But that is kinda why she should get some leeway because what has happened is not normal. She may have been groomed in the same way as those who are victims of sexual abuse, just she has been groomed for a different outcome. Although how consensual the sex she had was is debatable given the record of the Islamic state.
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Post by JAS on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 3:17 pm

McLaren wrote:
JAS wrote: I don’t fall for any of that stage managed Poopie but when all is said and done she is still a “wrong ‘un” Jeez when we were 15, making a “mistake” was getting caught steaming drunk down the park - not jetting off to join a terrorist caliphate.

But that is kinda why she should get some leeway because what has happened is not normal.  She may have been groomed in the same way as those who are victims of sexual abuse, just she has been groomed for a different outcome.  Although how consensual the sex she had was is debatable given the record of the Islamic state.

She’s 19 and just had the baby, do they have vastly different gestation periods out there?? Seriously though from what your saying would you then give James Bulgers killers a “bit of leeway” because what they done wasn’t normal either. Where do you draw the line?

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 4:03 pm

JAS wrote:
McLaren wrote:
JAS wrote: I don’t fall for any of that stage managed Poopie but when all is said and done she is still a “wrong ‘un” Jeez when we were 15, making a “mistake” was getting caught steaming drunk down the park - not jetting off to join a terrorist caliphate.

But that is kinda why she should get some leeway because what has happened is not normal.  She may have been groomed in the same way as those who are victims of sexual abuse, just she has been groomed for a different outcome.  Although how consensual the sex she had was is debatable given the record of the Islamic state.

She’s 19 and just had the baby, do they have vastly different gestation periods out there?? Seriously though from what your saying would you then give James Bulgers killers a “bit of leeway” because what they done wasn’t normal either. Where do you draw the line?

This is her third baby, the other two died, so she was used for sex pretty much from the time she arrived there, which apparently is pretty standard. They often get married and divorced several times so men can choose different women when it suits them. The girl must be seriously messed up, but before we compare her to murderers we don’t even know that she’s killed or even hurt anyone, it’s not as if she’s likely to have been part of the process for any planning.
The point is you can’t draw a line when you don’t even know what the crime is.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:08 pm

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:Islamic state girl is going to have her UK citizenship removed. New low for the tories.

Why is this a low Mac? If she's a dual citizen of Bangladesh (or is eligible), why would you want her back here, and why do you think this is a low for the Tories? Do you seriously think no other party would do this? Over 100 people have had their UK citizenship revoked this year, and Labour have revoked citizenship in the past too.

The only issue here is if she is ONLY a UK citizen as you cannot make someone stateless, and as she has the right to appeal, then the UK government had nothing to lose.

The UK government has no duty to do a single thing for her at present as there is no embassy/consulate in the country. It's up to her to get to one.

Not sure why you are going down the whataboutery route again.  Especially when you know my votes in recent years have gone the greens.


As for Shamima Begum, I am not sure what harm can come of showing a 19 year old with a child a little compassion until the circumstances of how she came to fall to the hands of terrorists has been established.  Worst case scenario is you have to send her to jail and not bungalow dweller is harmed.

Will you still give your votes to the Greens Mac now that they are the lickspittles of the despicable SNP?

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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:14 pm

Diggers wrote:How do we find out if she was radicalised unless we make efforts to find out - which could then assist in stopping the whole radicalisation process.
The fact there has been a protocol on different cases doesn’t make that the right think to do, it simply means the U.K. has abdicated  responsibility even more times and should be called out on that.
What harm could she do, well she could now become so embittered she converts others, becomes a suicide bomber, persuades her child to become a jihadist, any number of things we cannot control and simply choose to take no responsibility for.
As far as I know the passport situation is not down to EU law and has also been applied to US and Australian cases. It’s a clear choice that says if we can get away with abdicating responsibility we will, if we get pulled up on that by another more powerful nation, we won’t.

I'm sort of in two camps here Diggers, I can see the reasons to bring her back, but also the reasons not to and to relinquish her UK citizenship.

Given that she can't even keep not one but two babies alive, despite living in a society she described as normal, I don't think she's got the brains to mastermind a terrorist attack as she's clearly already demonstrated clearly through her actions and her interviews just how dense she is.
It's also pretty funny to suggest that someone who already hates the UK is going to become even angrier and a suicide bomber just because she isn't allowed to come back to the country she already hates.

Maybe she was indoctrinated by this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKL9b5-DL4A

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:20 pm

Why is it funny? Again, none of us know that she still hates the UK. What she said today suggests that she was hoping for compassion, she hasn’t got it.
You also don’t know the circumstances of the children’s deaths. Pretty crass remark really.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:30 pm

Didn't you hear the interview Diggers?

If she was hoping for compassion only an idiot would claim that she still believed in ISIS and only a complete moron would say that the Manchester bombing was a legitimate act.

If she wanted compassion it doesn't take more than about 2 brain cells that you need contrition and admit that she made a mistake.

The children died of malnutrition apparently, though she looks pretty well fed in a Lowry type way, she also said that her life was pretty normal in Syria. So that wouldn't involve poverty.

How would Oscar Wilde put it? "to lose one child might be considered a misfortune, to lose two looks like carelessness"

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Post by Diggers on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:36 pm

You really are, to use your own word, a ghastly excuse for a human.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 20 Feb 2019, 7:40 pm

Why? Because I don't cry crocodile tears over a couple of dead babies like you do?

Hundreds of thousands of children die every single day. How much time do you waste on them? Absolutely none, so don't pretend you care about the children of this waste of oxygen.

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