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Post by miaow on Wed 19 Dec 2018, 10:49 pm

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Discuss..

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 10:15 am

Cyril wrote:Barnes does love Ireland speschaily (sic) Leinster/Munster. He practically wets his pants in the Euro comps when an Irish player gets the ball.

Maybe he likes Ireland, Leinster and Munster because they are good. After all Ireland have defeated England more times in the six nations than England have wins v Ireland and Leinster have the joint most Euro cup trophies with Munster only two trophies behind.

Maybe Barnes is right and you suffer from jealousy a little particularly with respect to Ireland? Does it hurt to lose to a country that you instinctively believe is inferior to yours or something?

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 10:30 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Barnes does love Ireland speschaily (sic) Leinster/Munster. He practically wets his pants in the Euro comps when an Irish player gets the ball.

Maybe he likes Ireland, Leinster and Munster because they are good. After all Ireland have defeated England more times in the six nations than England have wins v Ireland and Leinster have the joint most Euro cup trophies with Munster only two trophies behind.

Maybe Barnes is right and you suffer from jealousy a little particularly with respect to Ireland? Does it hurt to lose to a country that you instinctively believe is inferior to yours or something?


Is Barnes even English?! Grew up in Newport, went to school in Newport, played for Newport RFC (many moons ago)!
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 10:34 am

I'm sure there is plenty of cross over between Wales and England. Maybe he is both.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 11:50 am

Barnes is English but went to school in Wales. He captained Wales Schoolboys, and was in the Newport team which faced the All Blacks in 1980. The New Zealanders reckoned he was the best player they faced on tour. He was still 17 at the time.

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Post by rodders on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 2:31 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Barnes is English but went to school in Wales. He captained Wales Schoolboys, and was in the Newport team which faced the All Blacks in 1980. The New Zealanders reckoned he was the best player they faced on tour. He was still 17 at the time.

He's been the best player for Wales in a number of Wales v Ireland senior games too.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 2:55 pm

Haha.

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 3:07 pm

rodders wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Barnes is English but went to school in Wales. He captained Wales Schoolboys, and was in the Newport team which faced the All Blacks in 1980. The New Zealanders reckoned he was the best player they faced on tour. He was still 17 at the time.

He's been the best player for Wales in a number of Wales v Ireland senior games too.

Seriously?! Or am I unable to read the sarcasm here?!
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 3:17 pm

The Oracle wrote:
rodders wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Barnes is English but went to school in Wales. He captained Wales Schoolboys, and was in the Newport team which faced the All Blacks in 1980. The New Zealanders reckoned he was the best player they faced on tour. He was still 17 at the time.

He's been the best player for Wales in a number of Wales v Ireland senior games too.

Seriously?! Or am I unable to read the sarcasm here?!

Another 100 minutes of thinking and it'll come to you, Oracle.

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 3:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
rodders wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Barnes is English but went to school in Wales. He captained Wales Schoolboys, and was in the Newport team which faced the All Blacks in 1980. The New Zealanders reckoned he was the best player they faced on tour. He was still 17 at the time.

He's been the best player for Wales in a number of Wales v Ireland senior games too.

Seriously?! Or am I unable to read the sarcasm here?!

Another 100 minutes of thinking and it'll come to you, Oracle.

Ah right! A ref joke. Doh My mind was still on Stephen Jones. Although I’m sure some people think we’re actually talking about Stephen Jones the ex-Scarlets player here and not Stephen Jones the journalist.
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Post by Sharkey06 on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 5:36 pm

One of the advantages of being an older fart is that you have seen a greater variety of players. It is of course impossible to compare someone from todays generation where the players are bigger, fitter and stronger than ever against someone from the amateur age. However, I think all anyone can be is the best of their generation. So I have gone with those who I believe were the standout of their generation - someone who stood out as something special. For instance JPR Williams will not be known by a lot of posters under 50, but the guy was an outstanding player who had pace, bravery and skills that stood out from his generation as special (plus he ran 70 yards to join in a forwards fight with the Lions in 1974 on the legendary 99 call to drop a South African second row) - as a former forward everything I would want from a back. I am sad to say I have not included Willie John McBride someone I don't recall seeing play other than on Lions replays, or Finlay Calder an oustanding captain and player in the 1989 Lions, but here it is my greatest ever team:

1. Steve McDowell
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Robert Paparemborde
4. Martin Johnson
5. John Eales
6 .Richard Hill
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read

9. Joost van der Westhuizen
10. Dan Carter

11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tim Horan
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Jason Robinson
15. JPR Williaims


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Post by Taylorman on Fri 21 Dec 2018, 6:02 pm

Sharkey06 wrote:One of the advantages of being an older fart is that you have seen a greater variety of players.  It is of course impossible to compare someone from todays generation where the players are bigger, fitter and stronger than ever against someone from the amateur age.  However, I think all anyone can be is the best of their generation.  So I have gone with those who I believe were the standout of their generation - someone who stood out as something special.  For instance JPR Williams will not be known by a lot of posters under 50, but the guy was an outstanding player who had pace, bravery and skills that stood out from his generation as special (plus he ran 70 yards to join in a forwards fight with the Lions in 1974 on the legendary 99 call to drop a South African second row) - as a former forward everything I would want from a back.  I am sad to say I have not included Willie John McBride someone I don't recall seeing play other than on Lions replays, or Finlay Calder an oustanding captain and player in the 1989 Lions, but here it is my greatest ever team:

1. Steve McDowell
2. Sean Fitzpatrick
3. Robert Paparemborde
4. Martin Johnson
5. John Eales
6 .Richard Hill
7. Richie McCaw
8. Kieran Read

9. Joost van der Westhuizen
10. Dan Carter

11. Jonah Lomu
12. Tim Horan
13. Brian O'Driscoll
14. Jason Robinson
15. JPR Williaims


Very familiar with every one in this side. Bridgends Dr. JPR was a bit of a legend of his time. I recall him stopping Bryan Wlilliams dead in after a run where Beegee got a ten to fifteen run straight at him. Scruffy long hair, socks always down, blood usually pissing out of somewhere, one of the greats. I remember his run in to the scuffle. Grant Batty, a small but not shy of the biff himself did similar, running in off the wing across the field to have a crack. Hard case.

For the team Id have had Cullen in their purely for his speed and agility, one of the most balanced runners with the ball Ive ever seen, made it look so easy and graceful.

Carter Horan and BOD is a good blend and would have caused a lot of problems for any opposition.

McDowells an interesting choice, out of my fave ever side the 87 ABs, which also had Michael Jones, my personal all time fave.

Edwards and Joost will always top the 9 picks, champs in their own right.

Good side for us 50ers I agree. thumbsup

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Post by king_carlos on Sat 22 Dec 2018, 12:55 am

Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:If I had to pick a side to win a match to save my life:

1.Os du Randt
2.Sean Fitzpatrick
3.Carl Hayman
4.Martin Johnson
5.John Eales
6.Richard Hill
7.Richie McCaw
8.Lawrence Dallagio

9.Joost van der Westhuizen
10.Dan Carter

11.Jonah Lomu
12.Tim Horan
13.Brian O'Driscoll
14.Jason Robinson
15.Christian Cullen

So, if I were picking one to stop them winning that match...

1. Jason Leonard
2. Brian Moore
3. Tom Smith
4. Sam Whitelock
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Serge Betsen
7. Neil Back
8. Billy Vunipola

9. Kyran Bracken
10. Jonny Wilkinson
11. Alesana Tuilagi
12. Will Greenwood
13. Conrad Smith
14. Bryan Habana
15. Josh Lewsey

Not necessarily the players I'd have in my own "save my life" XV, but the ones who I think might give your XV the most trouble. Your selection of Os du Randt immediately made me think of picking Smith, and it escalated from there...

Interesting side that, Poorfour.

Alesana Tuilagi stands out there, is that a case of lining him up against Robinson?

Bracken was a great player. Just did the basics of his position fantastically and let those around him shine.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 22 Dec 2018, 6:58 am

15Christian Cullen
14Gerald Davies
13Bleddyn Williams
12Tim Horan
11David Campese
10Barry John
9 Gareth Edwards
8 Keiran Read
6 Willie Ofahengaue
7 Richie McCaw
5 John Eales
4 Willie John McBride
3 Jean-Pierre Garuet
2 Sean Fitzpatrick
1 Jason Leonard


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Post by The Great Aukster on Sat 22 Dec 2018, 8:58 am

Collapse2005 wrote:One of daftest selections ever. He is just looking for clicks.

Well now the subjectivity of the World Player of the Year is over, the media baggers need to sell some other kind of snake oil.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat 22 Dec 2018, 1:28 pm

I was thinking about Stephen Jones choosing Simon Shaw, and was reminded that, when called upon to perform at one of the highest levels in the game (the second Lions test in 2009), he delivered in spades.

In that same spirit, I was wondering about good players, who aren't usually selected in these all-time great teams, who would walk in, if they always played as well as their standout performance.

I'm thinking of Tim Rodber in 1994, when England beat South Africa 15-32 in Pretoria. I also have in mind a Carlos Spencer master class in 2003, which might also have been against South Africa in Pretoria, since they won 16-52. He wasn't bad later that year when the All Blacks met the Springboks at the World Cup, with that famous pass between his legs.

Peter O'Mahony might get a vote for his game against England in 2017, or New Zealand this year, Arguably, though, that's too consistent to count.

Names like Simon Geoghegan and Sébastien Chabal come to mind too. They both had transcendent matches where they seemed to be the centre of energy for everything significant.

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Post by Poorfour on Sat 22 Dec 2018, 2:26 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:If I had to pick a side to win a match to save my life:

1.Os du Randt
2.Sean Fitzpatrick
3.Carl Hayman
4.Martin Johnson
5.John Eales
6.Richard Hill
7.Richie McCaw
8.Lawrence Dallagio

9.Joost van der Westhuizen
10.Dan Carter

11.Jonah Lomu
12.Tim Horan
13.Brian O'Driscoll
14.Jason Robinson
15.Christian Cullen

So, if I were picking one to stop them winning that match...

1. Jason Leonard
2. Brian Moore
3. Tom Smith
4. Sam Whitelock
5. Brodie Retallick
6. Serge Betsen
7. Neil Back
8. Billy Vunipola

9. Kyran Bracken
10. Jonny Wilkinson
11. Alesana Tuilagi
12. Will Greenwood
13. Conrad Smith
14. Bryan Habana
15. Josh Lewsey

Not necessarily the players I'd have in my own "save my life" XV, but the ones who I think might give your XV the most trouble. Your selection of Os du Randt immediately made me think of picking Smith, and it escalated from there...

Interesting side that, Poorfour.

Alesana Tuilagi stands out there, is that a case of lining him up against Robinson?

Bracken was a great player. Just did the basics of his position fantastically and let those around him shine.

Basically, yes. I was struggling a bit for a winger to offer a bit of a physical match to Lomu - though with hindsight I might be tempted by Ben Cohen, who was one of the finest defensive wingers I have ever seen.

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue 25 Dec 2018, 8:26 am

Rugby Fan wrote:I was thinking about Stephen Jones choosing Simon Shaw, and was reminded that, when called upon to perform at one of the highest levels in the game (the second Lions test in 2009), he delivered in spades.

In that same spirit, I was wondering about good players, who aren't usually selected in these all-time great teams, who would walk in, if they always played as well as their standout performance.

I'm thinking of Tim Rodber in 1994, when England beat South Africa 15-32 in Pretoria. I also have in mind a Carlos Spencer master class in 2003, which might also have been against South Africa in Pretoria, since they won 16-52. He wasn't bad later that year when the All Blacks met the Springboks at the World Cup, with that famous pass between his legs.

Peter O'Mahony might get a vote for his game against England in 2017, or New Zealand this year, Arguably, though, that's too consistent to count.

Names like Simon Geoghegan and Sébastien Chabal come to mind too. They both had transcendent matches where they seemed to be the centre of energy for everything significant.

A very interesting line of thought, I had similar though I selected players that were consistently marvellous. Carlos Spencer had a wonderful talent but could be a massive liability too sometimes, Simon Shaw could be the best lock in the world one game in twenty, he was often anonymous at Wasps.

Injury has blighted so many great talents, so many players who reach that high echelon of skill then disappear from the game.

I like your mention of Seabass Chabal too. Cult figures, talent wise he was no Zinzan Brooke but when he got the ball or he was lining up a tackle most of the crowd were on their feet.

In similar vein to the raw attacking talents of Spencer but for his brute force rather than his twinkling toes or lightening pace.

On that note an anything might happen when they get the ball xv

Darren Morris - side stepping, drop goal kicking Swansea prop

Keith Wood - played fly half at school boy level, and was probably pretty good at it

Nick Popplewell - the turn of pace this man had was remarkable for a fat guy with skinny legs

Simon Shaw - as discussed above you never knew but if he played it might be a masterclass

Will Skelton - an absolute monster of a player

Sebastian Chabal - when at Sale it was reported that Chabal was the strongest man for his size and weight by some considerable distance, watch the highlights reel

Jerry Collins - the hits, Willie o was impressive but Jerry listed several knock outs not just big tackles

Scott Quinell - big powerful fast skillfull he had it all, when he was fit

Nikola Matawalu - can create anything from anywhere

Carlos Spencer - absolute magician

Jason Robinson - could beat a man one on one in a paper bag

Gavin Henson - always had so much time on the ball, never looked like he was running fast but could glide through gaps and had the pass and the kick of the best ever, sometimes....!

Jerry Guscot - never needed an invatation, was a wonderful partner to Scotty Gibbs in 93 and 97

Rupeni Caucaunibuca - the height of a lock the stomach of a 1950s prop and the pace of an Olympic sprinter and he could step too

Serge Blanco - probably the most graceful player to smoke 30 galuoise a day

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 25 Dec 2018, 10:19 am

Shaw was a fantastic player who didn't get recognition until late on due to Johnson blocking his path. It's no shame to struggle to make headway against Johnno though. Particularly once Kay nailed down the line-out general role.

Test level is a funny thing with certain players though. Martin Corry always jumps to mind for me there. He leapt onto the international scene on the '01 Lions tour with fantastic performances, before fading into a bench role in England's world cup winning side. He then spent the second half of his England career as a solid performer in a poor side.

On cult figures Christian Cullen comes to mind. His diet was reportedly abysmal and his attitude to training was 'inconsistent' at best but he just made rugby look easy.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 25 Dec 2018, 10:42 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:I was thinking about Stephen Jones choosing Simon Shaw, and was reminded that, when called upon to perform at one of the highest levels in the game (the second Lions test in 2009), he delivered in spades.

In that same spirit, I was wondering about good players, who aren't usually selected in these all-time great teams, who would walk in, if they always played as well as their standout performance.

I'm thinking of Tim Rodber in 1994, when England beat South Africa 15-32 in Pretoria. I also have in mind a Carlos Spencer master class in 2003, which might also have been against South Africa in Pretoria, since they won 16-52. He wasn't bad later that year when the All Blacks met the Springboks at the World Cup, with that famous pass between his legs.

Peter O'Mahony might get a vote for his game against England in 2017, or New Zealand this year, Arguably, though, that's too consistent to count.

Names like Simon Geoghegan and Sébastien Chabal come to mind too. They both had transcendent matches where they seemed to be the centre of energy for everything significant.

A very interesting line of thought, I had similar though I selected players that were consistently marvellous. Carlos Spencer had a wonderful talent but could be a massive liability too sometimes, Simon Shaw could be the best lock in the world one game in twenty, he was often anonymous at Wasps.

Injury has blighted so many great talents, so many players who reach that high echelon of skill then disappear from the game.

I like your mention of Seabass Chabal too. Cult figures, talent wise he was no Zinzan Brooke but when he got the ball or he was lining up a tackle most of the crowd were on their feet.

In similar vein to the raw attacking talents of Spencer but for his brute force rather than his twinkling toes or lightening pace.

On that note an anything might happen when they get the ball xv

Darren Morris - side stepping, drop goal kicking Swansea prop

Keith Wood - played fly half at school boy level, and was probably pretty good at it

Nick Popplewell - the turn of pace this man had was remarkable for a fat guy with skinny legs

Simon Shaw - as discussed above you never knew but if he played it might be a masterclass

Will Skelton - an absolute monster of a player

Sebastian Chabal - when at Sale it was reported that Chabal was the strongest man for his size and weight by some considerable distance, watch the highlights reel

Jerry Collins - the hits, Willie o was impressive but Jerry listed several knock outs not just big tackles

Scott Quinell - big powerful fast skillfull he had it all, when he was fit

Nikola Matawalu - can create anything from anywhere

Carlos Spencer - absolute magician

Jason Robinson - could beat a man one on one in a paper bag

Gavin Henson - always had so much time on the ball, never looked like he was running fast but could glide through gaps and had the pass and the kick of the best ever, sometimes....!

Jerry Guscot - never needed an invatation, was a wonderful partner to Scotty Gibbs in 93 and 97

Rupeni Caucaunibuca - the height of a lock the stomach of a 1950s prop and the pace of an Olympic sprinter and he could step too

Serge Blanco - probably the most graceful player to smoke 30 galuoise a day

Very surprised that Scott Gibbs hasn't been mentioned by anyone other than a partner to Guscot, one hell of a handful in attack and great defence.

Going back a bit further, David Duckham was another of those players that mad the crowd draw in breath every time he got the ball with any space.

Phil Bennett was in my opinion a lot better all round player than Barry John, Johns size (or lack of it) made him a defensive liability, like a ghost ball in hand, but you wound.t want him trying to tackle a bib back row. I doubt if even Barry John could have pulled off what Bennett did in the famous Baa Baas try, simply amazing footwork.

It is so difficult to judge modern day from the older generations, a lot of the players that looked good then would be just too small now; Merv the Swerve, great in his day, but could have have dealt with 18 stone mobile backrowers and 15 stone 10s? The same with players like Roger Utterly, I suspect not.


OH, AND MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY
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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 25 Dec 2018, 10:47 am

Gibbs was awesome alright. Would probably have a load of red cards these days for his dump tackles.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 25 Dec 2018, 2:26 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Gavin Henson - always had so much time on the ball, never looked like he was running fast but could glide through gaps and had the pass and the kick of the best ever, sometimes....!
I remember seeing Henson on telly in one of his early club appearances (probably Swansea). Never been more excited by the promise of a player, he just looked so amazing. It was only one game, but I was convinced he'd be a major star. Don't remember ever thinking that so quickly about any England player. It's a great regret for me that he didn't shine brighter, and for longer, because he genuinely had it all.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 25 Dec 2018, 3:17 pm

The only one I can think of from an England perspective was Simpson-Daniel, he had it all.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Tue 25 Dec 2018, 9:41 pm

I would have had joost at 9 andrew merthens at 10. And not sure Chris Lathem would be classed at the best 15 either.

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Post by maestegmafia on Thu 27 Dec 2018, 6:51 am

Van de Westhuizen was a brilliant scrum half, but he wasn’t the all rounder that players like Edwards, Sid Going or Ken Catchpole were.

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Post by miaow on Thu 27 Dec 2018, 1:45 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:The only one I can think of from an England perspective was Simpson-Daniel, he had it all.

Apart from regular England caps.

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Stephen Jones' Best Ever World Rugby XV he's ever seen in his entire life - Page 2 Empty Re: Stephen Jones' Best Ever World Rugby XV he's ever seen in his entire life

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Thu 27 Dec 2018, 3:34 pm

miaow wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:The only one I can think of from an England perspective was Simpson-Daniel, he had it all.

Apart from regular England caps.

Unfortunately correct

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Stephen Jones' Best Ever World Rugby XV he's ever seen in his entire life - Page 2 Empty Re: Stephen Jones' Best Ever World Rugby XV he's ever seen in his entire life

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