England U20 Elite Squad 2019

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Post by Cumbrian on Fri 04 Jan 2019, 1:12 pm

I might be wrong, but this looks about an exciting squad of U20s as I can remember, there are standout players all over the place, often in positions England are crying out for competition in.  

I worry that they are going to try to shoehorn one of those 10's into full back at the expense of Hodge (who is a fantastic prospect in his own right).

Props:

Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers)
Olly Adkins (Gloucester)
Kai Owen (Worcester Warriors)
Marcus Street (Exeter)

Hookers:

Nic Dolly (Sale)
Will Capon (Bristol)
Samson Ma’asi (Northampton Saints)

Second Row:

Joel Kpoku (Saracens)
Josh Basham (Durham University)
Alex Coles (Northampton)
James Scott (Worcester Warriors),

Back-Row:

Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors)
Richard Capstick (Exeter Chiefs)
Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester)
James Dun (Bristol)
Tom Willis (Wasps)

Scrum Half:

Oliver Fox (Yorkshire Carnegie)
Sam Maunder (Exeter Chiefs)
Gus Warr (Sale Sharks)

Fly Half:

Tom De Glanville (Bath)
Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
Kieran Wilkinson (Sale Sharks)

Centres:

Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints)
Connor Doherty (Sale Sharks)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors)
Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks)

Wing:

Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish)
Cadan Murley (Harlequins)
Arron Reed (Sale Sharks)
Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints)

Fullback:

Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons)
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 04 Jan 2019, 2:56 pm

There's already 5 or 6 well known players in there who should be looking at troubling the current England squad in the next couple of years.looks promising.

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Post by Cumbrian on Fri 04 Jan 2019, 7:25 pm

Aye, there are some experienced players and some notable names.  When you look at names like De Glanville and Redpath (to go with Mallinder and Grayson last couple of years) you realise how localised and even insular rugby still is.  I even noticed a Rowntree propping for Leicester again!  

The question of who might break through to the senior side is interesting.  I am not sure it will be the ones who are getting the most Premiership time, rather where we lack cover/ depth at international level.  Obviously if a player turns out to be outstanding (I’m thinking Kpoku and Lawrence), they may force the way in no matter who is in their way.  

If I had to pick I would say Tom Willis has a fair shot because of the relatively poor depth and poor injury record at eight.   Ted Hill has a shot at blindside because his competitors are getting on in years (relatively) Robshaw (32), Rhodes (31) Wilson (29) or are themselves unproven like Shields.

We desperately need one of these young scrum halves to start stepping up.  I reckon Care and (certainly) Wigglesworth will call it a day after the world cup. Youngs has been inconsistent and (like Care) has played an awful lot of rugby.

Kpoku seems like a beast, but he has got a lot of very good players to get past.

Lawrence has a lot of players to get past, but nobody has made the position their own since Joseph has been long term injured so he has a slither of opportunity.
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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 10 Jan 2019, 2:27 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Aye, there are some experienced players and some notable names.  When you look at names like De Glanville and Redpath (to go with Mallinder and Grayson last couple of years) you realise how localised and even insular rugby still is.  I even noticed a Rowntree propping for Leicester again! 

He does not have his dad's ears yet, but time enough for that I guess.

https://www.leicestertigers.com/player/jack-rowntree

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 10 Jan 2019, 2:43 pm

Cameron Redpath ...son of a Scotland international, born in France. Suitably foreign for England whilst still a product of the posh school system.

Sleighthomes dad was and England sevens player.

Ma'sai is another with a famous(ish) father, son of a Tongan international.

Don't suppose Alex is a relation the Dane (not Dan) is he Rolling Eyes ? Could do with a bit of that to beef up the front 5. Or indeed Wilkinson related to the other one.



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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 9:16 am

Fraser Dingwall (classic English name that) is showing some real class playing for Saints at the moment, he seems to have an Ashtonesque ability to read where a break is going to come and get there to take the offload. Add that to some very good running lines and a tenacious defence for a stripling 87kg and you have the makings of an excellent player. Whether his lack of size will hold him back at the highest levels is something for the future to sort out.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 9:10 pm

Tom Hardwick's dad is Rob Hardwick the former England international prop. His younger brother is a prop in the Tigers academy alongside Rowntree jnr.

Joe Heyes is one to watch. You don't get many 19 year olds who are perfectly capable of scrummaging against senior internationals. Looks to be the natural successor to Dan Cole at Tigers but with more ball carrying.

The midfield options are an embarrassment of riches. Some real quality there though possibly without Hardwick who is still recovering from a nasty concussion.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:29 am

Josh Hodge is real hope for us at full back...so give him a season or two and he'll be off to Leicester.....

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 12:31 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Josh Hodge is real hope for us at full back...so give him a season or two and he'll be off to Leicester.....

We've got a lad coming through the academy we're hopeful of. He's a big old unit with pace and a step. Played a bit in the A league at 18, six foot 5. Murphy has helped out with a bit of mentoring. Work on is his decision making but that'll improve when he has to use his skills more than his size.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 12:49 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Josh Hodge is real hope for us at full back...so give him a season or two and he'll be off to Leicester.....

We've got a lad coming through the academy we're hopeful of. He's a big old unit with pace and a step. Played a bit in the A league at 18, six foot 5. Murphy has helped out with a bit of mentoring. Work on is his decision making but that'll improve when he has to use his skills more than his size.

Freddie Steward?

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 7:19 pm

Quins wing Cadan Murly has come from no where to being a starter for Quins. Classic English posh boy wing, can score tries though.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 9:24 pm

yappysnap wrote:Quins wing Cadan Murly has come from no where to being a starter for Quins. Classic English posh boy wing, can score tries though.
Though based on recent comments from Gustard, no longer a starter for away games.

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:52 am

I missed that LT, what was it that Gustard said?

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 10:15 am

Sorry for quoting from the Sun, not where I originally read this but all I can find now:


So ex-England defence guru Gustard has ripped up the Quins playbook - changing things from what they eat, to what they wear, when they travel and even who might play.

Gustard has also made two changes to the starting XV that beat Wasps at Twickenham last time out - having crunched the numbers and stats on who can hack it outside of London, dropping no.8 James Chisholm and winger Cadan Murley.
After analysing the data, Gustard said: "There are a couple who are not in consideration for selection who’s differences would be more noticeable.
"It is in its infancy and I am not sure yet whether it is right or wrong, but it is in my thinking.
"You also have to weigh up what your eyes are telling you when you watch them train, but I also need something I can hang my hat on and say: ‘Boys, this is going to give us the best chance to win this week’.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 10:21 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:Joe Heyes is one to watch. You don't get many 19 year olds who are perfectly capable of scrummaging against senior internationals. Looks to be the natural successor to Dan Cole at Tigers but with more ball carrying.

With Cole recalled to the England squad, Heyes may well not play in the 6Ns this year as much as would have been expected after last season's performances for the U20s. There are a few players in this squad who may well be needed by their clubs instead.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 10:49 am

LondonTiger wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Josh Hodge is real hope for us at full back...so give him a season or two and he'll be off to Leicester.....

We've got a lad coming through the academy we're hopeful of. He's a big old unit with pace and a step. Played a bit in the A league at 18, six foot 5. Murphy has helped out with a bit of mentoring. Work on is his decision making but that'll improve when he has to use his skills more than his size.

Freddie Steward?

Yep. Fordy likes a crossfield kick and with this lad breaking through you'd expect to see a fair few go up.

Agree on Heyes. He may well be starting games with Cole called up again. They might let him skip the prem cup ones in order to give Fe'ao and Cortes game time to get match fit.

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Post by propdavid_london on Mon 21 Jan 2019, 12:30 pm

From what I remember last season - the French have a huge pack that pretty much every side struggled to deal with.
I have no idea what the ages of those players were - but if they are still in the U20s then its a big ask for any 6N side to overcome.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 21 Jan 2019, 12:34 pm

propdavid_london wrote:From what I remember last season - the French have a huge pack that pretty much every side struggled to deal with.  
I have no idea what the ages of those players were - but if they are still in the U20s then its a big ask for any 6N side to overcome.

Not sure all those monsters that featured in the JWC played in the 6Ns where they were beaten quite comfortably by us (though we messed up against Scotland and lost title on points difference)

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:27 am

Ah, getting my U20s competitions mixed!
Joel Kpoku if he stands out with his performances like he has done previously is a name that could very quickly break into senior caps.
I am glad Marcus Smith is in the U20s and not listed as * EJ Apprentice player.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:32 am

From what I remember, the French u20 pack in the JRWC was built on the tighthead Bamba and the big number 8, Jordan Joseph

Bamba is in the senior 6N squad, not sure if Joseph is in the u20s

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 11:55 am

Is that Joel Kpoku similar stamp to Itoje and Isiekwe - about 6'5

Sarries are producing some very athletic "small" locks...but what England need are a few monsters in their at lock.

New Zealand have Retallick , the Safas have an array of monsters...wheres our beasts!!

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 12:25 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is that Joel Kpoku similar stamp to Itoje and Isiekwe - about 6'5

He looks shorter than that to me, but is listed at 6ft5 and 126kg (nice mix of imperial and metric measures). That makes him appreciably heavier than Itoje (115) and Isiekwe (120). Isiekwe is listed as 6ft7 on RFU profile.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 12:54 pm

126kg! Wow ok he's a big lad isn't he...if that's legit.

I didn't realise Isiekwe was 6'7 aswell mind, thought he was only 6'5 as well.

Itoje is really quite small as modern day locks go...

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 1:22 pm

It has been a while since we've had a beanpole type 4/5.
Someone in the Charteris ilk.
The only one that springs to mind in the Prem for me is Charlie Matthews - and he's not that young anymore.
Coming though the U20s though - you are right.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 1:41 pm

Not even necessarily a bean pole Prop David.

Just an absolute physical animal in the engine room. But someone who can take it up to the Senior level.

6'8 / 6'9 a real brute. None of these athletic 6'5 back row hybrids...

I always remember the Geech saying he picked Martin Johnson as 1997 Lions captain because could you imagine that thing walking out for the coin toss, you'd be immediately intimidated. I just don't think England have anyone like that these days...

All the other nations...Ireland, NZ, SA..do have that type.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 1:45 pm

Yet at a senior level we have a group of 4 locks which I wouldn't swap for anyone else's.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 1:50 pm

You see I agree 98% 7.5

We have a fantastic set of locks...but I just think we're missing something. Just my feeling.

Ironically Underhill at 7 is probably the one in the pack that shows that sheer inane power and physicality and could be a key player going forward (maybe at 6) and in HIll and Dombrandt, maybe a few others like that.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 1:55 pm

Hey i get we all look on with envy at other players. Yes I'd love it if retallick was English as I think he's the best player let alone lock in the world. But look what we do have. Plenty would love the vunipola s etc

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 31 Jan 2019, 10:29 am

England U20s v Ireland
15. Josh Hodge (Newcastle Falcons), 14. Ollie Sleightholme (Northampton Saints), 13. Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints) - captain, 12. Tom Hardwick (Leicester Tigers), 11. Cadan Murley (Harlequins), 10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins), 9. Sam Maunder (Exeter Chiefs), 1. Olly Adkins (Gloucester), 2. Nic Dolly (Sale Sharks), 3. Marcus Street (Exeter Chiefs), 4. Joel Kpoku (Saracens), 5. Alex Coles (Northampton Saints), 6. Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors), 7. Aaron Hinkley (Gloucester), 8. Tom Willis (Wasps)
Replacements:
16. Ben Atkins (London Irish), 17. Bevan Rodd (Sale Sharks), 18. Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers), 19. James Scott (Worcester Warriors), 20. Rusiate Tuima (Exeter Chiefs), 21. Ollie Fox (Yorkshire Carnegie), 22. Cameron Redpath (Sale Sharks), 23. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors).

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 31 Jan 2019, 10:59 am

That's a heck of an U20s team. Lots of lads who have first team experience in the premiership.

A very tasty backrow!

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu 31 Jan 2019, 10:08 pm

There's quite a bit of prem experience in that squad. Heyes on the bench played in the last two rounds of Europe.

Marcus Smith at this level is just over kill.

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Post by Cumbrian on Fri 01 Feb 2019, 8:38 am

To be fair, if you can leave Hayes, Lawrence and Redpath on the bench and not even have Luke James in the squad you are doing pretty well!

Never heard of Rusiate Tuima before now, seems like a big lad though. I don't know if he is a poach, but played for Devenport U13s, so bee here for a good part of his life.
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Post by robbo277 on Fri 01 Feb 2019, 10:07 am

bluestonevedder wrote:That's a heck of an U20s team. Lots of lads who have first team experience in the premiership.

A very tasty backrow!

England and France U20s have a lot more league appearances than the other 6 Nations teams U20s. Obvious why when you think about it, but it makes a difference at that level and then gets closed as the players get older.

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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 01 Feb 2019, 1:19 pm

Are the U20s fixtures being televised at all?

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Post by Cumbrian on Fri 01 Feb 2019, 2:14 pm

The homes are on SS, the Wales one is on S4C and this one is on RTE2, there may be a stream somewhere...
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Post by propdavid_london on Fri 01 Feb 2019, 2:23 pm

Great - thanks
I think Sky is also picking up the women's 6N too.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat 09 Feb 2019, 4:43 pm

England bounce back from last week's disappointment to record a TBP win over France in a game with 3 penalty tries.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 09 Feb 2019, 4:46 pm

England was really powerful in the game, a bit like the senior team against Ireland last week. The size of some of those guys, it is hard to believe that they are under 20.

A great win for England.

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Post by Cumbrian on Sat 09 Feb 2019, 9:05 pm

I have never seen an English scrum dominate a French one like that at any level before, it was dangerous. At one point I thought the ref should call uncontested because somebody was going to get hurt, then the French inexplicably fronted up with ten minutes to go! Thought Hinckley was very impressive, a hard and committed runner.

I have been a bit disappointed with Lawrence so far, he came into the tournament with a big rep and hasn’t justified it yet. He was lucky to get away with that sly knee at the end too. It was completely unnecessary.

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Post by Sharkey06 on Sun 10 Feb 2019, 6:11 pm

I thought France's scrummaging was embarrassing at times - I could have done a better job than their looseheads. Other than the scrum I thought England were quite ordinary. Marcus Smith was very disappointing and was outplayed by his opposite number. The England lineout in the second half was a complete disaster. There was very little offered by the England centres. I thought the French tries from the no 8 and 13 were very disappointing - 2 quite big strong guys who powered through England's defence. England won because they were bigger and stronger than their opposite number - there was very little to no skill on show. And I thought the replacement no 8 who came on for England was embarrassing - he had no idea what to do with the ball when it came to the back of the scrum. He may be Fijian and very big and powerful, but he had zero rugby skill. I can't see many if any of those players pushing into the senior England side - even Kpoku looked very ordinary.
Sorry if I am being very negative, but I was really disappointed with the skill level of what was on offer.

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