England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 12:46 pm

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 12:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 12:49 pm

I know there will be match threads, indeed already is one, but with the squad being named this week I thought we may have a general thread.

Disappointed with so many late kick-offs, and with so many matches on ITV - guess I can mute SCW.


Just to amuse and help discussions on who you would select in squad, who Eddie may select:


Stephen Jones’ England squad


Full-backs
Alex Goode (Saracens), Simon Hammersley (Newcastle)



Wings
Chris Ashton (Sale), Jack Nowell (Exeter), Jonny May (Leicester), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath)



Centres
Ben Te’o (Worcester), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester), Henry Slade (Exeter), Elliot Daly (Wasps)



Fly-halves
Owen Farrell (Saracens), Danny Cipriani (Gloucester), George Ford (Leicester)



Scrum-halves
Dan Robson (Wasps), Ben Youngs (Leicester), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)



Loose-heads
Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Ben Moon (Exeter)



Hookers
Jamie George (Saracens), Rob Webber (Sale), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter)



Tight-heads
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps), Harry Williams (Exeter)



Locks
Matt Symons (Harlequins), Dave Attwood (Bath), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton)



Flankers
Maro Itoje (Saracens), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Mark Wilson (Newcastle), Don Armand (Exeter)



No 8s
Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Ben Morgan (Gloucester)

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 12:52 pm

Just enough bat sh** crazy selections again!

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 12:54 pm

Players currently injured (some may be about to start the comeback trail):

Hartley, Robshaw, Underhill, Joseph, Watson, Cokanisiga

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 1:01 pm

Assuming a 31 man squad names I would expect to see named (excluding the injured from above):

Forwards (17):

Mako, Genge, Moon, George, LCD, Sinckler, Williams, Lawes, Launchbury, Itoje, Kruis, Ewels, Shields, Wilson, Curry, Billy, Hughes


Backs (14):

Youngs, Robson, Wigglesworth, Farrell, Ford, Te'o, Slade, Lozowski, Manu, May, Daly, Nowell, Ashton, Brown


Personally I would not have Ewels, Shields or Hughes, and am really worried about FB.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 1:24 pm

Given his last squads hard to argue against the vast majority. If Joseph hits the ground running he would presumably jump ahead of someone like lozowski who was subbed and then dropped recently. Depending if he sees slade or tuilagi as able to play 12 Tompkins could be considered though I'd accept as with the other thread it's been Marchant. There another 2 real options for the back row in dombrandt and Clifford as well. Personally it a Wilson most at risk there for me.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 1:28 pm

I can see Dombrandt being called up as an extra member with that stupid Apprentice asterisk.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 1:35 pm

I forgot Mercer as well thinking of apprentices.

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 9:07 pm

Dombrandt will be lucky to get a look in this time around but he's knocking on the door.

Wouldn't surprise me if we were without both Robshaw and Hartley this 6N though- although I am not looking forward to Shield playing more

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Post by compelling and rich on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:02 am

only just seen itv getting 4/5 England games. BBC getting even more of a joke for its sports coverage.

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Post by Cumbrian on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:49 am

I absolutely hate that the game against France is on a Sunday, hate it. I really dislike ITV coverage too.

I am not so worried by fullback for the immediate future, Brown will be around for the 6N and World Cup. After the World Cup is another story though...

Dombrandt seems like a scoring machine, he also seems much bigger and more powerful than our other blindsides. There might be an argument for putting him on and telling him to just smash things for 20 to 30! It might seem fanciful but there are still what, three weeks to the Ireland match? I could see us losing at least a back-rower a week until then! I mean Billy might break BOTH of his arms this time...
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:51 am

compelling and rich wrote:only just seen itv getting 4/5 England games. BBC getting even more of a joke for its sports coverage.

Can't be seen to spend money on elitist sports, better to spend their licence money on "sports" like darts and snooker. I think fishing is more exciting than most of what the Beeb show these days.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:55 am

compelling and rich wrote:only just seen itv getting 4/5 England games. BBC getting even more of a joke for its sports coverage.

Looking at the schedules it looks as if BBC have the home games for France, Scotland and Wales, while ITV have England, Ireland and Italy. That the only match on BBC for England is the game in Cardiff is a buggeration as I cannot abide Eddie Butler's flowery waffle.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:56 am

Blame the political philosophy currently cheerfully strangling all our public services while promising the moon on a stick on March 30

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 8:58 am

Cumbrian wrote:It might seem fanciful but there are still what, three weeks to the Ireland match?  I could see us losing at least a back-rower a week until then!  I mean Billy might break BOTH of his arms this time...

The injury list after the next two weekends will be interesting. Then of course they enter the patented Eddie Jones Cripple Your Players Training Camp for any who are still able to walk.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 9:00 am

"Dombrandt seems like a scoring machine, he also seems much bigger and more powerful than our other blindsides. There might be an argument for putting him on and telling him to just smash things for 20 to 30!"

6'3" and pushing 19 stone at 21 he is a big lump, seems to have some pace as well, but we have yet to see if he has the nouce at the breakdown; looking very promising though. Did I read somewhere that he played for Wales at U20 level? Was that due to studying in Wales, similar to Underhill or has he Welsh connections?



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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 9:05 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Did I read somewhere that he played for Wales at U20 level? Was that due to studying in Wales, similar to Underhill or has he Welsh connections?


He went to University in Wales. Played in the U20s 6Ns for them, but was not eligible to play in the JWC.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 1:16 pm

I get slightly frustrated with the pundits who declare that Eddie Jones has no more room for experiments, must settle on his best starting squad, and give them a run of games, who then start listing exceptions.

To take openside as an example. After the last tour, most thought Curry had made a good enough case to get a run but he got injured, When Underhill stepped up, the consensus seemed to be that he should be in pole position. Now that Underhill is out of the Six Nations, Curry is likely back at seven. Underhill will therefore have very little international game time ahead of the World Cup but it would seem perverse to discount him from consideration, even if Curry goes well in the next tournament.

If Jones isn't to be allowed any experimentation, then that would close the door on Manu Tuilagi. Jones has had no real time to look at Tuilagi in tests, so playing him at all would necessarily be an experiment, and not guaranteed to work.

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Post by Sharkey06 on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 1:32 pm

I don't think people mind two or three experiments but can you honestly say what our first choice backrow is? It seems to be a perm 3 from 9 or 10. Also our back three seems to be a perm 3 from 7 or 8. Our centre combinations are a similar unknown.

I know injuries have played their part, but one of Irelands strengths is that you pretty much know who their first choice 15 are and who the next in line are in each position when there are injuries.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 1:39 pm

The coaches will have a better idea than us. It's also slightly easier for a lot of countries to get to definitive 1st choice as they have fewer players of sufficient quality.

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Post by Cumbrian on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 1:58 pm

True, it is hardly an experiment if necessity forces a new back-row every other game because of injuries! Very Happy


The Dombrandtinator, Wonderhill and Big Bad Billy would be a rawboned back-row post World Cup, assuming any of them are still functioning by then!
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Post by TightHEAD on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 2:05 pm

Zach Mercer is finding form, quick too.

Would offer something different to our normal plodders in the back row.
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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 2:13 pm

Sharkey06 wrote:I don't think people mind two or three experiments but can you honestly say what our first choice backrow is?  It seems to be a perm 3 from 9 or 10.  Also our back three seems to be a perm 3 from 7 or 8.  Our centre combinations are a similar unknown.
I don't disagree. The thing is, the pundits who demand consistency from Jones are the same one who will call for change if we don't perform right from the off in the tournament.

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Post by rodders on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 2:49 pm

So with England looking at a mid table finish this season at best, will Eddie Jones make it to the RWC?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 2:50 pm

I'm thinking grand slam personally.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 3:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given his last squads hard to argue against the vast majority. If Joseph hits the ground running he would presumably jump ahead of someone like lozowski who was subbed and then dropped recently. Depending if he sees slade or tuilagi as able to play 12 Tompkins could be considered though I'd accept as with the other thread it's been Marchant.  There another 2 real options for the back row in dombrandt and Clifford as well. Personally it a Wilson most at risk there for me.

Yes we all know....

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 3:38 pm

You can only say what you see gf.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 3:40 pm

Didn't actually realise the Ireland game was only 2 weeks away, January has flown past me

How is Tuilagi doing? I would love to see him fit and firing for the entire tournament, just don't know if its a bit of a pipe dream.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 3:46 pm

He's remained fit. Looked threatening. Given last week off. Hamstring this Saturday is due.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 4:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can only say what you see gf.
Some may argue you need a trip to Specsavers Run

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 4:51 pm

Won't have long to wait to see now.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 5:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Won't have long to wait to see  now.
Nah, cause if Jones drops Wilson we can just say he is myopic too.

I do not view Wilson as a world beater, just feel he has been far more effective than Shields, who I feel has offered very little to the team.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 5:31 pm

Nowell as a full back option?

He's better under the high ball than Daly and probably the best tackler in the England back line.

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Post by hugehandoff on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 5:42 pm

With everything green seeming to be so rosy and our knackered over worked players struggling for health and form can you see any chinks of light out there? What cause for optimism for Ireland away?

I am just clinging onto the fact that a number of our key players have enjoyed a break due to injuries, but they are now back playing. Hopefully this means England might not be as jaded as they have been in recent times? Mako, Billy, Maro, Manu, T'eo, Launchbury, Kruis, JJ (yet to play but in training), have all enjoyed some time off from the treadmill. A shame it takes an injury to get some rest, but hopefully they come back stronger. Fingers crossed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:02 pm

Ha. Touche. If Wilson can replicate his form at 8 rather than 7 he stands a chance.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:07 pm

king_carlos wrote:Nowell as a full back option?

He's better under the high ball than Daly and probably the best tackler in the England back line.

I always thought he would be a good successor to Brown, but the main issue for me would be his kicking game, not seen enough to know whether it is up to international level. His try at the weekend was great though

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:26 pm

FB is tricky. Jones is trying to move away from Brown thus Watson was tried, did not convince and got injured. Daly has played the last 7 tests there and has also not convinced.

If we are trying to do the best we can in the next game, then I would say we should be selecting Brown. However if we are looking for a better option for the RWC we have one more chance to get it right. Jones can always go back to Brown, so really these next few games should either be used to continue to bed Daly in or try someone new. Whoever gets the job has to be strong under the high ball first and foremost then we can look at the other aspects of their game. So far Daly has not done the former and largely failed to bring the verve he was showing on the wing to the more central position. Would Nowell (or Ashton) be any better - no idea.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 6:59 pm

Personally i'd stick with Brown until another player actually plays well enough to take the shirt. Sadly the best 15 atm is Goode whos just rubbish for England, but then Browns had a good season so not the end of the world.

Would be great to see Vunipola and Tuilagi stay fit for the whole 6Ns

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Post by Mr Bounce on Tue 15 Jan 2019, 9:15 pm

I think the interesting call will be at scrum half - does Eddie stick with the usuals or does Robson and/or Spencer come in? It was clear in the Autumn that Care had fallen out of favour for now - will he step back in or will will have some new blood?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:25 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:"Dombrandt seems like a scoring machine, he also seems much bigger and more powerful than our other blindsides. There might be an argument for putting him on and telling him to just smash things for 20 to 30!"

6'3" and pushing 19 stone at 21 he is a big lump, seems to have some pace as well, but we have yet to see if he has the nouce at the breakdown;  looking very promising though. Did I read somewhere that he played for Wales at U20 level? Was that due to studying in Wales, similar to Underhill or has he Welsh connections?



Id never heard of him before a month ago, and he played very well against us. Is he only 21? Id been told he was bout 26 or something.

Well that does bode well....

Him and Ted Hill might be battling for that spot long term....if they continue their progression.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:27 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:"Dombrandt seems like a scoring machine, he also seems much bigger and more powerful than our other blindsides. There might be an argument for putting him on and telling him to just smash things for 20 to 30!"

6'3" and pushing 19 stone at 21 he is a big lump, seems to have some pace as well, but we have yet to see if he has the nouce at the breakdown;  looking very promising though. Did I read somewhere that he played for Wales at U20 level? Was that due to studying in Wales, similar to Underhill or has he Welsh connections?



Id never heard of him before a month ago, and he played very well against us. Is he only 21? Id been told he was bout 26 or something.

Well that does bode well....

Him and Ted Hill might be battling for that spot long term....if they continue their progression.

I stood out for me when I looked him up, he shares the same birthdate with me, sadly not the same year by quite a margin, May 1997

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:42 am

Yeah Ive just checked..hes a big unit.

Im assuming now that's hes not at Uni in Cardiff Wales have no shout for him.


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Post by BamBam on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 8:52 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Ive just checked..hes a big unit.

Im assuming now that's hes not at Uni in Cardiff Wales have no shout for him.


When has that ever stopped Wales trying to cap a player angel

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 12:44 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Ive just checked..hes a big unit.

Im assuming now that's hes not at Uni in Cardiff Wales have no shout for him.


I don't think uni counts towards residency if you have a home address in England you return to, but I could be wrong.

He was never welsh qualified, which is why he wasn't allowed to play the JWC, as LT pointed out. If he'd gone from Cardiff Uni to the Blues, he could have eventually qualified under residency.

I believe at least one of the 6N games he played for Wales Under 20s was a capture game, but you can't be captured if you're not qualified. Even though he was eligible for that game and other players playing that game may have been captured. It's quite bizarre.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 12:46 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Players currently injured (some may be about to start the comeback trail):

Hartley, Robshaw, Underhill, Joseph, Watson, Cokanisiga

I wonder if instead of 31/32 names in the squad, we see 36 names including Hartley, Robshaw, Joseph, Watson and Cokanisiga. Similar to what Wales have done, large squad with a number of injured players so it's less disruptive to add them later.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 16 Jan 2019, 7:23 pm

robbo277 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Players currently injured (some may be about to start the comeback trail):

Hartley, Robshaw, Underhill, Joseph, Watson, Cokanisiga

I wonder if instead of 31/32 names in the squad, we see 36 names including Hartley, Robshaw, Joseph, Watson and Cokanisiga. Similar to what Wales have done, large squad with a number of injured players so it's less disruptive to add them later.

That would be a good idea but it'd interfere with the clubs I think

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 1:37 am

Guardian are suggesting a 35-man training squad will be named today.

1.Mako, Genge, Moon
2.George, LCD, Singleton
3.Sinckler, Williams, Cole
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Kruis, Ewels
6.Wilson, Hill
7.T Curry, Shields
8.B Vunipola, Hughes, Mercer

9.Youngs, Robson, Wigglesworth
10.Farrell, Ford

11.May, Nowell
12.Te'o, Lozowski
13.Slade, Tuilagi
14.Daly, Ashton
15.Brown

If it's a big training squad it's harder to call but I reckon he will pick 3 players at hooker and scrum-half as depth is needed for the RWC. I've taken punts on a recall for Cole and Ted Hill retaining a place.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 7:03 am

All papers seem to agree that:

Robson will be included with Care out.
Despite not playing for a while with knee issues, Hartley will be included.
Robshaw and Joseph will be excluded as only making comebacks this weekend, but may be added later in the tournament.

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Post by propdavid_london on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:38 am

Anyone know what time today the squad is announced?

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Post by BamBam on Thu 17 Jan 2019, 9:40 am

Its up

Here is England’s SIx Nations squad in full. In the absence of Hartley, Owen Farrell will captain the squad.

Forwards: Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Backs: Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

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