England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:56 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:07 am

BamBam wrote:Jack Nowell could play openside according to Eddie...explains why we have so many back 3 players

I read this too. It was quite the interview!
But more as an 9th forward hybrid player, redefining the wing role, than actually playing in place of a flanker (something about Tom Croft Rolling Eyes )

Theres speculation he might just be trolling and trying to distract the oppositions thinking, but its something hes tried previously with Japan.

Hes also not taking the injured senior players to the training camp, choosing to focus is specifically on the next game and those players who have a chance of playing in it. So not a sign that Hartley and Robshaw are out of the picture once they are fit to play.

Overall the squad is closer to a first choice than it has been for a long time. Lets see how many they can get injured in the training camp.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:22 am

It's probably too late now, but for me the player with the best skill set to play 15 is May although his kicking game needs improvement. He is solid under the high ball, pretty good positionally these days, tackles well and on attack, that pace coming into the line in an unstructured manner or when he runs from deep against an disorganised defence could be devastating. All wingers in the modern game are semi full backs anyway, but if there was one England player I would not want running at me from deep it is Jonny May, especially on that long curving run he goes on to such effect

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:35 am

And Clive Woodward was all for moving May to 13 once upon a time.

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Post by Cumbrian on Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:43 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:It's probably too late now, but for me the player with the best skill set to play 15 is May although his kicking game needs improvement. He is solid under the high ball, pretty good positionally these days, tackles well and on attack, that pace coming into the line in an unstructured manner or when he runs from deep against an disorganised defence could be devastating. All wingers in the modern game are semi full backs anyway, but if there was one England player I would not want running at me from deep it is Jonny May, especially on that long curving run he goes on to such effect


I thought that, he looks excellent under the highball. He is also quick enough to cover any flaws in positional play. I still think Nowell would make a good full back in the Brown battling mould, shame that Exeter have brought in Hogg and the test will not get off the ground.
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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:51 am

Cumbrian wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:It's probably too late now, but for me the player with the best skill set to play 15 is May although his kicking game needs improvement. He is solid under the high ball, pretty good positionally these days, tackles well and on attack, that pace coming into the line in an unstructured manner or when he runs from deep against an disorganised defence could be devastating. All wingers in the modern game are semi full backs anyway, but if there was one England player I would not want running at me from deep it is Jonny May, especially on that long curving run he goes on to such effect


I thought that, he looks excellent under the highball.  He is also quick enough to cover any flaws in positional play.  I still think Nowell would make a good full back in the Brown battling mould, shame that Exeter have brought in Hogg and the test will not get off the ground.

Was it a couple of years ago when Daly got red carded, May had the pace to cover both wings in both attack and defence. He was fielding high balls on both wings whilst, I think it was Brown covered the centre ground. Simply amazing on May's part.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:57 am

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:It's probably too late now, but for me the player with the best skill set to play 15 is May although his kicking game needs improvement. He is solid under the high ball, pretty good positionally these days, tackles well and on attack, that pace coming into the line in an unstructured manner or when he runs from deep against an disorganised defence could be devastating. All wingers in the modern game are semi full backs anyway, but if there was one England player I would not want running at me from deep it is Jonny May, especially on that long curving run he goes on to such effect


I thought that, he looks excellent under the highball.  He is also quick enough to cover any flaws in positional play.  I still think Nowell would make a good full back in the Brown battling mould, shame that Exeter have brought in Hogg and the test will not get off the ground.

Was it a couple of years ago when Daly got red carded, May had the pace to cover both wings in both attack and defence. He was fielding high balls on both wings whilst, I think it was Brown covered the centre ground. Simply amazing on May's part.

Autumn international vs Argentina. One of his best displays

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Post by Poorfour on Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:45 am

Agree with that. The only criticism you can level at May is that he's less physical than Brown, Nowell or Daly. But it would be good to see what he could do at fullback.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:59 am

lostinwales wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:It's probably too late now, but for me the player with the best skill set to play 15 is May although his kicking game needs improvement. He is solid under the high ball, pretty good positionally these days, tackles well and on attack, that pace coming into the line in an unstructured manner or when he runs from deep against an disorganised defence could be devastating. All wingers in the modern game are semi full backs anyway, but if there was one England player I would not want running at me from deep it is Jonny May, especially on that long curving run he goes on to such effect


I thought that, he looks excellent under the highball.  He is also quick enough to cover any flaws in positional play.  I still think Nowell would make a good full back in the Brown battling mould, shame that Exeter have brought in Hogg and the test will not get off the ground.

Was it a couple of years ago when Daly got red carded, May had the pace to cover both wings in both attack and defence. He was fielding high balls on both wings whilst, I think it was Brown covered the centre ground. Simply amazing on May's part.

Autumn international vs Argentina. One of his best displays
It was the display that finally persuaded our dear departed friend of the Saracens parish that May was not a waste of space. Of course it was also the game where he memorably packed down in the back row after Marler I think was binned.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:45 pm

Joseph named in Bath's team to face Toulouse, so may come into contention later in teh 6Ns.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:41 pm

May could have a been a good full back, but at the moment in my opinion he is one of the best wingers in the world, so lets just leave him there doing what he is doing so well.

And yes when he packed down at flanker...one of the funny moments of rugby. he had hold of Makos leg!

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Post by carpet baboon on Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:52 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:May could have a been a good full back, but at the moment in my opinion he is one of the best wingers in the world, so lets just leave him there doing what he is doing so well.

And yes when he packed down at flanker...one of the funny moments of rugby. he had hold of Makos leg!

He is good.

But he's no Stockdale

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:02 pm

Ah I dunno I think May is as good as Stockdale myself. They are probably the next Lions wingers.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:53 pm

Watson. Cokanasiga. Lions is easy for the next coach.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:03 pm

lostinwales wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Good squad that. I'll admit I dont see many games now but im surprised Sam James hasnt got a look in, he seems one of the form English centres this season.

Also I echo others that Daly should start on the wing with Brown at 15. Goode was humiliated by Irelands kicking game a few seasons back and it pretty much ended his Eng career, we dont want that for Daly.

Disagree on Goode for once. There was a very wet test where he actually played well - taking a lot of high balls and returning the favour with interest. It's just most of the other games where he looked so hopeless.

Was that 2013? Where we won like 6-12 in an all kick game. He did look out of sorts against Ireland in 2015, I believe. That's probably what the above refers to.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:04 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson. Cokanasiga. Lions is easy for the next coach.

Watson will be playing NFL by then.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:55 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson. Cokanasiga. Lions is easy for the next coach.

Watson will be playing NFL by then.

It is an interesting point. If Wade does make it (and that is a big 'IF') there may well be a few more players targetted

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Post by yappysnap on Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:35 am

Just thinking out loud. But so far under Eddie we've seen Farrell, Te'o, Daly, Nowell, Slade, Lozowski, Manu, Joseph, Burrell and Devoto all play in the centres. I mention this as some one also hoped to see Devoto and Daly play.

But with all this chopping and changing shouldn't we just stick with our tried and tested Ford/Farrell and another combo?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:00 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson. Cokanasiga. Lions is easy for the next coach.

And Nowell at 7.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:26 am

How to distract media attention from any real questions masterclass from Jones!

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Post by robbo277 on Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:03 am

yappysnap wrote:Just thinking out loud. But so far under Eddie we've seen Farrell, Te'o, Daly, Nowell, Slade, Lozowski, Manu, Joseph, Burrell and Devoto all play in the centres. I mention this as some one also hoped to see Devoto and Daly play.

But with all this chopping and changing shouldn't we just stick with our tried and tested Ford/Farrell and another combo?

I'd say Ford/Farrell is the World Cup Plan B, and is possibly the game-closing option anyway. I think Jones will use this tournament to try out various combos. With 2 options at 12 (Te'o, Devoto) and 3 options at 13 (Slade, Tuilagi, Joseph), he has 6 combos to try and only 5 matches, not that rotating every option is the best option anyway.

I think he - quickly - has to decide between Te'o and Devoto. One should make the starting line-up, the other will probably not make the bench. And ultimately I believe one will make the World Cup and the other won't, so he needs to be decisive in this area and be prepared to give someone a bit of a run of games.

13 is slightly different. He could start Slade and bench Tuilagi, or vica versa. When Joseph comes back there will be a decision to make, but for the first couple of weeks anyway he can keep his focus on these guys.

Ford, Farrell, Slade, Tuilagi and Joseph make the world cup squad with me. I'd add a 12, probably Te'o, but Devoto could play his way in if given a chance. With Daly and Nowell covering centre (and back row) from the wing positions, 6 options in those 3 positions is probably sufficient.

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Post by mzan on Sat Jan 19, 2019 10:53 am

Watson needs to be given a serious run at 15 post WC. We've got quality wings aplenty, of which, prior to injury, he was the one consistently playing 15 for club, and he's the best of them claiming aerially and picking lines from deep through traffic.

Come 2020, I'd be interested in a backline of:

Robson
Farrell
May
Devoto
Daly
Cokanasiga
Watson

23. Nowell

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:43 pm

Farrell a late withdrawal for Sarries today and having a 'procedure' on his wrist. McCall described it as a 10 day injury.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:54 pm

mzan wrote:Watson needs to be given a serious run at 15 post WC.  We've got quality wings aplenty, of which, prior to injury, he was the one consistently playing 15 for club, and he's the best of them claiming aerially and picking lines from deep through traffic.

Come 2020, I'd be interested in a backline of:

Robson
Farrell
May
Devoto
Daly
Cokanasiga
Watson

23. Nowell

Manu being written off before 30? I'd take Manu over Daly at 13 every day of the week.

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Post by Yoda on Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:54 pm

Having just seen the Exeter game romain garces for the Ireland match is going to make a difficult task even harder. Total free for all at breakdown players off their feet not supporting body weight just holding a player on the floor. Apparently this is OK and a genuine turn over. No communication when it's a ruck so hands away etc. As for the tackler rolling away non-existent. Bearing in mind Ireland are more savvy than than us this could be a huge problem.

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Post by robbo277 on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:20 pm

Yoda wrote:Having just seen the Exeter game romain garces for the Ireland match is going to make a difficult task even harder. Total free for all at breakdown players off their feet not supporting body weight just holding a player on the floor. Apparently this is OK and a genuine turn over. No communication when it's a ruck so hands away etc. As for the tackler rolling away non-existent. Bearing in mind Ireland are more savvy than than us this could be a huge problem.

Luckily we'll have 9 forwards on the pitch so we'll be 13% better stocked at the breakdown.

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Post by Yoda on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:52 pm

Actually nowell looked great at the back at 15. Could be a very useful option there.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:40 pm

So Nowells going to play wing full back and flanker?
What could possibly go wrong.

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Post by Yoda on Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:19 pm

As long as this year's six nations is better for England than last I don't care if he plays hooker and may plays in the back row again at least it would be funny!

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Post by Exiledinborders on Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:28 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Farrell a late withdrawal for Sarries today and having a 'procedure' on his wrist. McCall described it as a 10 day injury.
If it was elective surgery the timing tells you something about Sarries' confidence about today's match.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:25 pm

Injuries starting to mount up this weekend.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:27 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Injuries starting to mount up this weekend.

Brad shields side strain no info on severity

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:56 pm

Yeah Shields dropped out before kick off, Launchbury and Hughes gone off injured while Wilson still has a niggle. Then add a rumoured fractured cheek bone for Ford and Farrell's surgery yesterday.

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Post by robbo277 on Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Yeah Shields dropped out before kick off, Launchbury and Hughes gone off injured while Wilson still has a niggle. Then add a rumoured fractured cheek bone for Ford and Farrell's surgery yesterday.

Sounds like England 2 weeks before a 6 Nations. What these guys need now is an Eddie Jones training camp to rest their sore bodies.

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Post by Yoda on Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:31 pm

Not sure Hughes was injured? The guy on the radio thought it was tactical or certainly didn't mention injury. Cips for Ford (yeah right) and armand for shields (fat chance).

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:59 pm

Hughes took a knock early and was limping through much of his time on pitch.

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Post by Yoda on Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:02 pm

Oh usual state of affairs then, drop him and get mercer in then. Poor bloke has been injured more than not. Story of wasps season. It's been a shocker and it still isn't over.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:43 pm

The things people will do to get out of the England training sessions

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:01 am

Pundits on the BBC Radio Six Nations show were talking about England scrum half selection. They suspect Jones has concluded Care is great at finishing games but isn't a good option to start. Neither Lancaster or Jones want Care to play the kind of game he does for Harlequins, so he is less effective than in the Premiership. This means, there's a need for a second starting option.

In a world where box kicking seems to rule supreme, they think Jones has Wigglesworth in mind but isn't selecting him, because he already knows what he can do. Robson can probably play the same kind of finishing role as Care, so the real question is whether he can also start. The only way to find out is to give him a start at some point during the tournament.

This assumes that, previously, Jones had seen Youngs and Care as his two bankers but started having second thoughts when Youngs was injured, and Care didn't have a great Six Nations. However, if Jones did start thinking that, then it's a mystery why he didn't start looking more at Robson and Spencer on the last tour.


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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:24 am

My guess is that being on a losing run, Eddie wanted to keep experiments to a minimum in SA. However I was surprised that Spencer was on the bench rather than Robson. I had assumed that Jones saw Spencer as a player who could fulfill both roles, yet he only came on for a few minutes in two of the three tests and has now been dropped completely.

Pairing Robson with Cipriani for the 3rd test would have made sense, but again we have the issue of teh losing streak.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:11 am

Yeah comments from Jones suggest Robson is there to challenge for the bench spot. His box kicking still remains a bit loose and he won't want to risk that against Ireland to start with.

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Post by carpet baboon on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:31 am

So are you saying wigglesworth will be on the bench against Ireland?
If your winning and you need a steady Eddie to slow the game then yes he's your man.
But if Ireland are in front then he's not really the dynamic player you need to add a bit of pace.
Without a dominant pack wiggy is nothing special, and one of the most average international scrum Half's you could find

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:33 am

No. More likely Robson from the bench either way. It's a decision between youngs and wigglesworth to start.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:No. More likely Robson from the bench either way. It's a decision between youngs and wigglesworth to start.

That's what Dawson thinks is happening.

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Post by carpet baboon on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:59 am

Well being Irish Robson coming on is more of a threat.

So can you put wiggy on the bench please

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jan 21, 2019 12:36 pm

Barring injuries Youngs will start in Dublin with Robson on the bench. Should Youngs be injured we will likely see Wiggy called up to start.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:02 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Well being Irish Robson coming on is more of a threat.

So can you put wiggy on the bench please

Wigglesworth is thankfully not in the squad. Unlikely to see him this week.

Edit: unlikely to see him next week either!

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Post by yappysnap on Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:09 pm

So that's injuries to:
Shields
Hughes
Launchbury
Ford
Farrell

Hopefully most of them are minor but its a bummer!

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Post by Exiledinborders on Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:01 pm

yappysnap wrote:So that's injuries to:
Shields
Hughes
Launchbury
Ford
Farrell

Hopefully most of them are minor but its a bummer!
I do not want to see any player injured but if Shields, Hughes or Ford all had minor injuries that kept them out of the Six Nations that would help England's cause greatly.


Launchbury and Farrell on the other hand would represent real losses.

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Post by lostinwales on Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:37 am

Launchbury and Shields are OK apparently.

Launchbury went off for an HIA which he passed - but he had jarred his neck so they kept him off the pitch. Shields had issues with a muscle spasm following a collision in training.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:20 pm

Hopefully Farrell is back for the Ireland game. However, given the injury is to his thumb its probably a good thing if he cant do the silly celebration he does after every successful kick.

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