England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

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England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 12:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).


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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by El Radar on Sun 03 Feb 2019, 10:39 pm

That isn't Nowells primary role in the team and ignores the sheer volume of work he gets through in a game. He's a winger who plays as an extra back rower, something Cokanasiga cannot do and also not something you can just teach a player to do.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by lostinwales on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 12:05 am

Nowell is a different kind of threat in attack, especially at a time when we (finally) have a lot of heavy duty carriers.

Defending against lots of different threats causes stress on a defence. Thinking about the threats costs energy, and defending against one threat can leave a hole that can be exploited by another. Nowell makes defenses work hard even if he doesn't make yards

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 6:52 am

The thing with Nowell he's a great option to get you some go forward or make a few yards etc, but he's not a huge threat to the try line. Big Joe would be an interesting option and certainly worth a look in one or two games, especially with the raw pace of May on the other wing.

I was listening to one of the podcasts and they were suggesting that Eddie now has his style of play (with an almost fully fit side) but a few injuries and we wouldn't be able to replicate this. I'm not so sure of this as we have some good alternate options.

1. Mako/Genge
2. George/LCD
3. Sinkler/Williams
4. Itoje/Launchbury
5. Kruis/Lawes
6. Wilson/? (Shields?? Needs to show more)
7. Underhill/Curry
8. Billy/Hughes (Needs to show more)

9. Youngs/Robson (Looking forward to seeing if he step up)
10. Farrell/Ford (Not sure Ford can replicate)
11. May/Joe
12. Tuilagi/Te'o
13. Slade/JJ
14. Nowell/Ashton
15. Daly/Brown

I think that looks pretty settled with only a few positions (8/10?) having a notable step down.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Exiledinborders on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 7:47 am

robbo277 wrote:
El Radar wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
The thing is that that is Nowell's game, and how he's always played. Cokanasiga isn't going to play like that and it is a fallacy to think that he will even if given the freedom to do so.

I would not want to change that backline at all going forward, but think Cokanasiga is perfect impact material.

That's exactly it, Nowell offers so much more around the park and replacing him with someone who will do none of that doesn't make sense. Our back three complimented each other perfectly yesterday just like the back row and midfield did.

Fair enough, but I think it's easier to teach Cokanasiga to increase his involvements then it is to teach Jack Nowell to be 30kg heavier, unless you've got some great "sport scientists" on the payroll. It wouldn't be so much giving Cokanasiga the freedom to play like Nowell, it would be giving him the instruction to go out and run off 9 and run off 10's inside shoulder. And when Cokanasiga has softened them up, Nowell can come on and use his footwork and pace to find more space and make breaks.

I'm not calling for Nowell to be replaced because I think he had a bad game, I'm just wondering if we can get more out of Cokanasiga starting. I think France is a good chance to give him a run (if he's even fit), but we could also see him coming on to the bench for this game.
I am not sure it is as easy as you think for a player to keep popping up in the right place. Just instructing a player to do it will not make it happen. It if it did every outside back would have as many tries as Ashton. Players just have different talents.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Barney McGrew did it on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:10 am

Great game, particularly for England. I did call it but was sniggered at so went off for a sulk. Anyhoo, looking at our problem areas, if Underhill can stay fit for 5 minutes suddenly we have an excellent BR group. And the balance of Slade and Manu worked really well. I’d still be interested in a Ford-OF-Slade/Manu line up tho. May has become a player that would walk into pretty much any squad. I’d like to see Cokanasiga given another look at, but the B3 combination seemed to work well, with Nowell getting so involved and helping clean up a lot of ball.

Unlikely as it seemed I also saw a Wales win after the 1st half. Wales struggled to get into the French half, but it seemed everytime they did, they broke through fairly easily (crossing the line twice). The French have some work to do to bolster their midfield defensively, and I can see England breaching it quite a bit. Plus their fatties were all garlic and no trousers – altho to be fair the weather saw both packs wallowing a bit.
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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Fluxy on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:15 am

Maro ruled out for eight weeks, so will miss the rest of the tournament.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:16 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The thing with Nowell he's a great option to get you some go forward or make a few yards etc, but he's not a huge threat to the try line. Big Joe would be an interesting option and certainly worth a look in one or two games, especially with the raw pace of May on the other wing.

I was listening to one of the podcasts and they were suggesting that Eddie now has his style of play (with an almost fully fit side) but a few injuries and we wouldn't be able to replicate this. I'm not so sure of this as we have some good alternate options.

1. Mako/Genge
2. George/LCD
3. Sinkler/Williams
4. Itoje/Launchbury
5. Kruis/Lawes
6. Wilson/? (Shields?? Needs to show more)
7. Underhill/Curry
8. Billy/Hughes (Needs to show more)

9. Youngs/Robson (Looking forward to seeing if he step up)
10. Farrell/Ford (Not sure Ford can replicate)
11. May/Joe
12. Tuilagi/Te'o
13. Slade/JJ
14. Nowell/Ashton
15. Daly/Brown

I think that looks pretty settled with only a few positions (8/10?) having a notable step down.

I think Mercer could over take Hughes soon. I think that lad is improving rapidly. He was always athletic, but I think hes working hard on his heavy duty carrying in traffic.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:17 am

Fluxy wrote:Maro ruled out for eight weeks, so will miss the rest of the tournament.

Sad to hear..i don't like injuries, but fortunately lock is one position we can cope with injuries.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:20 am

Fluxy wrote:Maro ruled out for eight weeks, so will miss the rest of the tournament.

He has not had a good time with injuries this season.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:24 am

It's a big loss as he was excellent at the weekend. Fortunate that we have Launchbury to come in.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by BamBam on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:28 am

Ah that is a shame

I wonder if the Lawes and Launchbury partnership should make a return? I always think the combination should either be those two together or the Saracens pair together. Kruis did well on Saturday but I feel like Launchbury should start, and Lawes seems like the better partner for him than Kruis.

With Itoje out we lose that athleticism and rangy lock who can put pressure on the half backs, it's that which I think Lawes can replicate while continuing to run a strong line out

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:39 am

As to the winger debate...its nice to have options. And jones will probably play horses for courses.

May is first choice...he is right up as one of the best in the game at the moment.
So its about who is on the other side...and both Nowell and Cokasaniga offer a different type of winger. Nowell sniping, industrious, whereas Joe offers a big bruising carrier.

Watson will further add to the dilemma when he returns.

Nice problem to have.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:43 am

BamBam wrote:Ah that is a shame

I wonder if the Lawes and Launchbury partnership should make a return? I always think the combination should either be those two together or the Saracens pair together. Kruis did well on Saturday but I feel like Launchbury should start, and Lawes seems like the better partner for him than Kruis.

With Itoje out we lose that athleticism and rangy lock who can put pressure on the half backs, it's that which I think Lawes can replicate while continuing to run a strong line out

Not when Lawes is there. Id argue Lawes is more Athletic and pressuring that Itoje.

Lawes is a top class...and did I hear he has put yet another stone on. He must be some size now.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by BamBam on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 10:48 am

That was my point Laugh I think Launchbury has to start and Lawes is the better partner than Kruis

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:01 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Ah that is a shame

I wonder if the Lawes and Launchbury partnership should make a return? I always think the combination should either be those two together or the Saracens pair together. Kruis did well on Saturday but I feel like Launchbury should start, and Lawes seems like the better partner for him than Kruis.

With Itoje out we lose that athleticism and rangy lock who can put pressure on the half backs, it's that which I think Lawes can replicate while continuing to run a strong line out

Not when Lawes is there. Id argue Lawes is more Athletic and pressuring that Itoje.

Lawes is a top class...and did I hear he has put yet another stone on. He must be some size now.

He put the weight on to counter balance what he had lost. So gone from just over 17st to just over 18st. Apparently when injured the weight drops off (while for the rest of us it piles on)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/01/28/courtney-lawes-put-stone-muscle-eating-whatever-want-lifting/

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:03 am

Well I think all 3 are great. Kruis put in a good shift on Saturday aswell. I think he's a top alround lock forward. He doesn't shirk the nasty stuff either.

I'd go Kruis, and Lawes with Launchbury off the bench.

Id keep the flankers the same as I think they help with breakdown and clear outs etc. Curry looks to have put on some bulk aswell. I was very impressed with him.

Underhill wont have it all his own way for that 7 shirt.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by robbo277 on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:12 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well I think all 3 are great. Kruis put in a good shift on Saturday aswell. I think he's a top alround lock forward. He doesn't shirk the nasty stuff either.

I'd go Kruis, and Lawes with Launchbury off the bench.

Id keep the flankers the same as I think they help with breakdown and clear outs etc. Curry looks to have put on some bulk aswell. I was very impressed with him.

Underhill wont have it all his own way for that 7 shirt.

Would agree with those forward selections. I think Launchbury has more talent than Kruis, but Kruis played well and he kept us ticking. He tackles, he rucks, he runs a lineout. I'd have him in the team again with Launchbury onto the bench.

Wilson and Curry are very good. If Shields was available and even Underhill was magically available this weekend, they'd be competing for that bench spot with Hughes, as well as Underhill played in the autumn.

If/when we ever get a full pack available, we're going to have to leave out some very good players.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:14 am

LondonTiger wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Ah that is a shame

I wonder if the Lawes and Launchbury partnership should make a return? I always think the combination should either be those two together or the Saracens pair together. Kruis did well on Saturday but I feel like Launchbury should start, and Lawes seems like the better partner for him than Kruis.

With Itoje out we lose that athleticism and rangy lock who can put pressure on the half backs, it's that which I think Lawes can replicate while continuing to run a strong line out

Not when Lawes is there. Id argue Lawes is more Athletic and pressuring that Itoje.

Lawes is a top class...and did I hear he has put yet another stone on. He must be some size now.

He put the weight on to counter balance what he had lost. So gone from just over 17st to just over 18st. Apparently when injured the weight drops off (while for the rest of us it piles on)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/01/28/courtney-lawes-put-stone-muscle-eating-whatever-want-lifting/

Ah right, thanks for the info.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:17 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Fluxy wrote:Maro ruled out for eight weeks, so will miss the rest of the tournament.

He has not had a good time with injuries this season.

Not such a bad thing I don't think. he's played a lot of rugby for a young age. Some rest will do him good.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by BamBam on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:24 am

Its a weird one, I view their attributes as

Itoje - athletic in line out/open play, good in the line out, puts pressure on halfbacks, strong carrier, scrummaging, ruck work, leadership
Kruis - scrummaging, line out leader, gain line defender
Lawes - athleticism, line out leader, athletic in line out/ open play, big hits, strong carries
Launchbury - gain line defence, strong carries, ruck work, scrummaging

With Itoje out, I think we need to replace his ruck work, carrying and athleticism. I just feel a combination of Kruis/Lawes loses some of that impact at the ruck, while Kruis/Launchbury probably isn't as impactful around the park, and may lack a bit in the line out

I think Kruis is ideal to face a side such as Ireland where we absolutely needed to have the set piece spot on, but against France and Wales I think we need more in open play. We're lucky to have 3 such good options even after losing Itoje.

Any thoughts on who the 4th choice lock would be, is Ewels in the wider squad?

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by robbo277 on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 11:50 am

BamBam wrote:Its a weird one, I view their attributes as

Itoje - athletic in line out/open play, good in the line out, puts pressure on halfbacks, strong carrier, scrummaging, ruck work, leadership
Kruis - scrummaging, line out leader, gain line defender
Lawes - athleticism, line out leader, athletic in line out/ open play, big hits, strong carries
Launchbury - gain line defence, strong carries, ruck work, scrummaging

With Itoje out, I think we need to replace his ruck work, carrying and athleticism. I just feel a combination of Kruis/Lawes loses some of that impact at the ruck, while Kruis/Launchbury probably isn't as impactful around the park, and may lack a bit in the line out

I think Kruis is ideal to face a side such as Ireland where we absolutely needed to have the set piece spot on, but against France and Wales I think we need more in open play. We're lucky to have 3 such good options even after losing Itoje.

Any thoughts on who the 4th choice lock would be, is Ewels in the wider squad?

Only 4 locks in the squad. Shields has covered lock off the bench before and could be his way back in. Eddie Jones also joked that Hughes had found his position after the Ireland game.

I'd imagine he won't call anyone up this week, just manage with what he has. We might see another lock added to the squad before the Wales game though. Ewels, who started against Japan, is still most likely.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by dummy_half on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 12:16 pm

For me, Lawes is the more 'like for like' replacement for Itoje, and so the more likely replacement. Not many sides would have the luxury of choosing from Lawes or Launchbury as replacement 2nd rows.

Any other injury news? Sinckler looked like he might have been broken when he went off, but it might just have been cramp.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by lostinwales on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 12:23 pm

dummy_half wrote:For me, Lawes is the more 'like for like' replacement for Itoje, and so the more likely replacement. Not many sides would have the luxury of choosing from Lawes or Launchbury as replacement 2nd rows.

Any other injury news? Sinckler looked like he might have been broken when he went off, but it might just have been cramp.

All I could find is '..who added that Kyle Sinckler's departure was due to tiredness and not a knock.'

I really hope he's fit. He was overshadowed by Mako on Saturday but he really is some player

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 12:47 pm

I was heavily critical of teh appointment of Mitchell to the coaching panel. Guess I may have to eat humble pie if we keep progressing.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 12:53 pm

Is Wisemantel still there as attack coach. Not heard anything so presume he is?

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 12:54 pm

Mitchel is an interesting one LT.

Theres a lot of negativity surrounding him, and yet I read a report about his work with the SA regions and indeed the knock on with the SA national team, and he's been widely praised for things he has set in motion and for the part he has played in SA's revival (the new flock of players coming through etc ).


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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 12:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is Wisemantel still there as attack coach. Not heard anything so presume he is?

He was namechecked as the man who came up with teh idea for that first lineout

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Poorfour on Mon 04 Feb 2019, 1:04 pm

lostinwales wrote:
dummy_half wrote:For me, Lawes is the more 'like for like' replacement for Itoje, and so the more likely replacement. Not many sides would have the luxury of choosing from Lawes or Launchbury as replacement 2nd rows.

Any other injury news? Sinckler looked like he might have been broken when he went off, but it might just have been cramp.

All I could find is  '..who added that Kyle Sinckler's departure was due to tiredness and not a knock.'

I really hope he's fit. He was overshadowed by Mako on Saturday but he really is some player

He was playing a very different role to Mako, though. They were using Kyle as often as a distributor as they were as a battering ram - it's something they started doing in the AIs, but the rest of the team weren't on his wavelength. Seemed to work much better yesterday. Interestingly a role that Mako could also play - but Mako, I think, is a lifelong prop who has added handling skills, whereas the Sinck was a flyhalf / fullback as a teenager who converted to prop relatively late, so his reading of the game has that extra notch to it.

Anyway, he didn't look too bad coming off - 60+ minutes against the Irish pack is enough to give anyone cramp!

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by robbo277 on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 12:53 pm

News coming through that Itoje is a potential to return for the Italy game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47130799

You'd hope he wouldn't be rushed back for it, this year especially, but hopefully he can get himself fit and if he's fully fit then he should be back in contention.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Rugby Fan on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 1:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is Wisemantel still there as attack coach. Not heard anything so presume he is?


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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 2:02 pm

Pourfour wrote:whereas the Sinck was a flyhalf / fullback as a teenager who converted to prop relatively late




Is this sometimes over-egged? After all according to the mythology I thought he started playing at 13 when he persuaded his PE teacher to form a team. At U16s he was playing LH prop for England.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 2:22 pm

robbo277 wrote:News coming through that Itoje is a potential to return for the Italy game.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47130799

You'd hope he wouldn't be rushed back for it, this year especially, but hopefully he can get himself fit and if he's fully fit then he should be back in contention.

He doesn't need to be rushed back. We have some excellent locks and even good premiership locks could play against Italy.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Pie on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 4:57 pm

With Manu going route 1 at 12 all day long Gatlandball seems to be working very well for England

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 5:01 pm

Gatland wishes it was as good as what England came up with.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Poorfour on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 5:44 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Pourfour wrote:whereas the Sinck was a flyhalf / fullback as a teenager who converted to prop relatively late




Is this sometimes over-egged? After all according to the mythology I thought he started playing at 13 when he persuaded his PE teacher to form a team. At U16s he was playing LH prop for England.

Not mythology - you can find the interviews on line. There was one last week. He started playing for Battersea Ironsides before 13, but at secondary school he persuaded his PE teacher to help him start a school side. Collin Osborne (ex Quins skills coach) said they spotted early on that he wouldn't be fast enough to be a pro back, but waited until he filled out before converting him to prop.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by yappysnap on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 6:04 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mitchel is an interesting one LT.

Theres a lot of negativity surrounding him, and yet I read a report about his work with the SA regions and indeed the knock on with the SA national team, and he's been widely praised for things he has set in motion and for the part he has played in SA's revival (the new flock of players coming through etc ).

As a person he seems in the past to have been very devisive and caused a lot of problems within clubs behind the scenes. Perhaps he has tempered his attitude a little now, and some one like Jones may be exactly what he needs to just keep him cool. Its never too late to grow and learn is it?

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Pie on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 6:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland wishes it was as good as what England came up with.

So good it's Eddieball?

(It is pure Gatland ball though)

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 05 Feb 2019, 6:33 pm

Ha. Yeah sure it is.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Pie on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Yeah sure it is.

yeah, it is

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Sgt_Pooly on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 5:18 am

Pie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland wishes it was as good as what England came up with.

So good it's Eddieball?

(It is pure Gatland ball though)

You're confusing the way Wales used to set-up (Generally with 2 lumps in the centres, one bigger lump at 12) with the way England set-up (A lump/direct runner at 12 and a playmaker at 13). The latter is much more like how NZ have set-up over the years, rather than how Wales used to, think Nonu/Smith rather than Roberts/JD.

I know you're looking for a bite rather than an explanation but I just can't bring myself to do this.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by yappysnap on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 6:52 am

And confusing a big pack for a pack full of lumps. Englands pack is big, but they look to be fit enough to all be effective over the 80 (i think). Look at France for a pack full of lumps who aren't fit.

Take out Manu and Englands backline is pretty normal size wise. Theyre certainly not North, Cuthbert, JD, Roberts etc (theyre much better at passing and catching for a start).

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 12:42 pm


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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Pie on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 2:42 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Pie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland wishes it was as good as what England came up with.

So good it's Eddieball?

(It is pure Gatland ball though)

You're confusing the way Wales used to set-up (Generally with 2 lumps in the centres, one bigger lump at 12) with the way England set-up (A lump/direct runner at 12 and a playmaker at 13). The latter is much more like how NZ have set-up over the years, rather than how Wales used to, think Nonu/Smith rather than Roberts/JD.

I know you're looking for a bite rather than an explanation but I just can't bring myself to do this.

You're not a 'playmaker' at 13, you're a finisher.

But given your description of what a 13 does, JD2 is probably one of the greatest and most consistent playmakers in the NH if not the world. Eddieball and Warrenball are the same in having route 1 Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Pie on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 3:23 pm

yappysnap wrote:And confusing a big pack for a pack full of lumps. Englands pack is big, but they look to be fit enough to all be effective over the 80 (i think). Look at France for a pack full of lumps who aren't fit.

Take out Manu and Englands backline is pretty normal size wise. Theyre certainly not North, Cuthbert, JD, Roberts etc (theyre much better at passing and catching for a start).

What are you on about, the pack has nothing to do with it

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Rugby Fan on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 3:34 pm

Pie wrote:But given your description of what a 13 does, JD2 is probably one of the greatest and most consistent playmakers in the NH if not the world. Eddieball and Warrenball are the same in having route 1 Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13
That's so wide a definition of Warrenball, you've made it meaningless. It means Nonu & Smith, Horan & Little, Carling & Guscott (or even Gibbs & Guscott) were all playing Warrenball.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 4:08 pm

And JD really isn't a great passer.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 4:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And JD really isn't a great passer.
He has improved this a lot over the years. Certainly much better than he was 6 years ago when even his club coach was critical of his passing ability.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by lostinwales on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 4:57 pm

I'm guessing the Italy Wales thread is very quiet.

In England terms the last center combo I can remember that is like this one is Greenwood and Tindall.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by Cyril on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 6:13 pm

Aye, and while Greenwood is (rightly) lauded for how well that worked, Tindall is generally an unsung hero.

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

Post by lostinwales on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 8:57 pm

Cyril wrote:Aye, and while Greenwood is (rightly) lauded for how well that worked, Tindall is generally an unsung hero.

yeah - That Warrenball centre combo is more Tindall and Noon

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Re: England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

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