England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 12:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).


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Post by Cyril on Wed 06 Feb 2019, 9:49 pm

Steady on! Heh!

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Post by Pie on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 2:37 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Pie wrote:But given your description of what a 13 does, JD2 is probably one of the greatest and most consistent playmakers in the NH if not the world. Eddieball and Warrenball are the same in having route 1 Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13
That's so wide a definition of Warrenball, you've made it meaningless. It means Nonu & Smith, Horan & Little, Carling & Guscott (or even Gibbs & Guscott) were all playing Warrenball.

which is ridiculous because Gats wasn't around then. Nevertheless that is the chief principle of the much maligned Warrenball, Doc pumping it up at 12. A la Manu Tuilagi.

If you care to give a fuller description I'd like to hear it?

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 3:19 am

Yeah well that's how I saw it in the Lions tour. I don't see Smith and Nonu and certainly not Horan & Little as Warrenball, who aren't big enough for it. Smith and Nonu had much more variation, especially towards the end of their careers where they became one of the most rounded, complete pairings to date. Nonu spent a large part of his early career crashing but it all got too predictable so he varied his passing and kicking up significantly.

I think its effective but also has a short lifeline.

Gatlands Welsh teams like to employ big backs to do all the crashing so it wasnt just in the centres. Seemed for a while there he wanted the biggest backline in history.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 3:38 am

Pie wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Pie wrote:But given your description of what a 13 does, JD2 is probably one of the greatest and most consistent playmakers in the NH if not the world. Eddieball and Warrenball are the same in having route 1 Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13
That's so wide a definition of Warrenball, you've made it meaningless. It means Nonu & Smith, Horan & Little, Carling & Guscott (or even Gibbs & Guscott) were all playing Warrenball.

which is ridiculous because Gats wasn't around then. Nevertheless that is the chief principle of the much maligned Warrenball, Doc pumping it up at 12. A la Manu Tuilagi.

If you care to give a fuller description I'd like to hear it?

I think the point is it wasn't just Roberts though. If you look at your 2013 backline for example you had: Phillips, Biggar, North, Roberts, Davies, Cuthbert, Halfpenny. Halfpenny is obviously tiny, but you've got 5 guys in that backline who weigh over 100kg. There was wave after wave of heavy carrier who could carry into traffic, and most of whom were fast and able to finish as well. It was an effective strategy and got a lot out of Wales at the time. But after a while it became predictable and I think defensive patterns have moved on. "Warrenball" for want of a better term has had its day, and Wales have evolved their game since then.

What England play now isn't "Warrenball". Yes, England do have Tuilagi at 12 and he is capable of crashing the ball up, but the rest of the backline are under 100kg. And if you look at England's first 3 tries from the weekend:
May - initial momentum gained by a Tuilagi carry, but the critical pass was Farrell's cut-out pass to Daly to create a 2-on-1
Daly - again, there was a big Tuilagi carry in the build-up, but then one phase later Manu slotted in to first receiver, pulled a pass behind Vunipola to Farrell who was deep, who did the same thing behind Slade to hit Daly deep and the kick through
Slade - first phase, Slade puts a wide miss pass in to set May through, who's kick put Slade in

The variation is that there are crash balls, but England are creating opportunities with their passing game, getting the ball to a set of outside backs who would rather go round you than through you. With Farrell, Slade and Daly, I'd say we have better passers than that Welsh team of 2013 and more tactical kickers (include Youngs in that one) and we look to use those as much as Manu's size.

I don't see Warrenball as an insult about a style of play, you can only really be judged on results, style is irrelevant, and in that time Wales won two Championships, including 1 Grand Slam.

Edit: Just seen a crossover post with Taylorman. What he said basically.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 6:36 am

Pie wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Pie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Gatland wishes it was as good as what England came up with.

So good it's Eddieball?

(It is pure Gatland ball though)

You're confusing the way Wales used to set-up (Generally with 2 lumps in the centres, one bigger lump at 12) with the way England set-up (A lump/direct runner at 12 and a playmaker at 13). The latter is much more like how NZ have set-up over the years, rather than how Wales used to, think Nonu/Smith rather than Roberts/JD.

I know you're looking for a bite rather than an explanation but I just can't bring myself to do this.

You're not a 'playmaker' at 13, you're a finisher.

But given your description of what a 13 does, JD2 is probably one of the greatest and most consistent playmakers in the NH if not the world. Eddieball and Warrenball are the same in having route 1 Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13

But it's not the same at all. If you think that JD and Slade are similar players, I'm at a loss. Slade is 10 by trade that was converted to 13. He's got a wide range of distribution skills and often steps in as first receiver or alternate playmaker.

I'm a big fan of JD but these are not his skill sets. He's a physical unit with a good step and gas to get the break, distribution and playmaking are not his strengths at all....could he play 10?

Also the style that Gatland used (as previously mentioned) had North and Cuthbert on the wings.

I don't know why they have to be same, as they're blatantly not. The only similarity is a physical option at 12. Wales used to this formula to fantastic effect for a number of years, it's not really something that works so well with modern defences....times change.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 8:18 am

The joy of 6 Nations time here at 606V2

England discussion thread has turned into a discussion of Welsh midfield tactics, and the England Ireland thread into NH vs SH

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Post by Exiledinborders on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 11:31 am

robbo277 wrote:
Pie wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Pie wrote:But given your description of what a 13 does, JD2 is probably one of the greatest and most consistent playmakers in the NH if not the world. Eddieball and Warrenball are the same in having route 1 Tuilagi at 12 and Slade at 13
That's so wide a definition of Warrenball, you've made it meaningless. It means Nonu & Smith, Horan & Little, Carling & Guscott (or even Gibbs & Guscott) were all playing Warrenball.

which is ridiculous because Gats wasn't around then. Nevertheless that is the chief principle of the much maligned Warrenball, Doc pumping it up at 12. A la Manu Tuilagi.

If you care to give a fuller description I'd like to hear it?

I think the point is it wasn't just Roberts though. If you look at your 2013 backline for example you had: Phillips, Biggar, North, Roberts, Davies, Cuthbert, Halfpenny. Halfpenny is obviously tiny, but you've got 5 guys in that backline who weigh over 100kg. There was wave after wave of heavy carrier who could carry into traffic, and most of whom were fast and able to finish as well. It was an effective strategy and got a lot out of Wales at the time. But after a while it became predictable and I think defensive patterns have moved on. "Warrenball" for want of a better term has had its day, and Wales have evolved their game since then.

What England play now isn't "Warrenball". Yes, England do have Tuilagi at 12 and he is capable of crashing the ball up, but the rest of the backline are under 100kg. And if you look at England's first 3 tries from the weekend:
May - initial momentum gained by a Tuilagi carry, but the critical pass was Farrell's cut-out pass to Daly to create a 2-on-1
Daly - again, there was a big Tuilagi carry in the build-up, but then one phase later Manu slotted in to first receiver, pulled a pass behind Vunipola to Farrell who was deep, who did the same thing behind Slade to hit Daly deep and the kick through
Slade - first phase, Slade puts a wide miss pass in to set May through, who's kick put Slade in

The variation is that there are crash balls, but England are creating opportunities with their passing game, getting the ball to a set of outside backs who would rather go round you than through you. With Farrell, Slade and Daly, I'd say we have better passers than that Welsh team of 2013 and more tactical kickers (include Youngs in that one) and we look to use those as much as Manu's size.

I don't see Warrenball as an insult about a style of play, you can only really be judged on results, style is irrelevant, and in that time Wales won two Championships, including 1 Grand Slam.

I agree. England look to me to be playing with a very balanced back line not that dissimilar to the 2003 side.
10 Solid reliable fly half in attack, defensive leader and reliable kicker: Wilkinson/Farrell
12 Crash ball merchant: Tindall/Tuilagi
13 Playmaker but with solidity in defence: Greenwood/Slade
Contrasting wings May/Robinson Nowell/Cohen
I am not saying this team are as good but the balance is similar.

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 11:48 am

Anyone else think Eddie Jones was playing around last year.

I think he set England up to lose, beasting them in training a couple of days before a game took its toll on the team, players looked lethargic in an England shirt only to look great once back at their clubs.

Not saying he wanted them to lose but maybe Eddie was playing the long game. That result in Ireland was outstanding and complete out of the blue. Yes we had a good Autumn but even so did Manu and Billy really make that much of a difference?
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Post by El Radar on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 11:51 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
I agree. England look to me to be playing with a very balanced back line not that dissimilar to the 2003 side.
10 Solid reliable fly half in attack, defensive leader and reliable kicker: Wilkinson/Farrell
12 Crash ball merchant: Tindall/Tuilagi
13 Playmaker but with solidity in defence: Greenwood/Slade
Contrasting wings May/Robinson Nowell/Cohen
I am not saying this team are as good but the balance is similar.

Only a small difference but Tindall was the outside centre whilst Greenwood was the inside centre, the latters superstition confusing things.

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Post by lostinwales on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 11:55 am

TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else think Eddie Jones was playing around last year.

I think he set England up to lose, beasting them in training a couple of days before a game took its toll on the team, players looked lethargic in an England shirt only to look great once back at their clubs.

Not saying he wanted them to lose but maybe Eddie was playing the long game. That result in Ireland was outstanding and complete out of the blue. Yes we had a good Autumn but even so did Manu and Billy really make that much of a difference?

Yes and no. You could argue about the relative direct contribution from both (good but not game breaking) but I believe both of them had a considerable impact on the players around them. Slade in particular seemed to really enjoy playing alongside Manu


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Post by Exiledinborders on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 12:28 pm

El Radar wrote:
Exiledinborders wrote:
I agree. England look to me to be playing with a very balanced back line not that dissimilar to the 2003 side.
10 Solid reliable fly half in attack, defensive leader and reliable kicker: Wilkinson/Farrell
12 Crash ball merchant: Tindall/Tuilagi
13 Playmaker but with solidity in defence: Greenwood/Slade
Contrasting wings May/Robinson Nowell/Cohen
I am not saying this team are as good but the balance is similar.

Only a small difference but Tindall was the outside centre whilst Greenwood was the inside centre, the latters superstition confusing things.
True but in both cases they would swap during the game anyway.

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Post by BamBam on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 12:30 pm

If only Daly had the solidity of Josh Lewsey heart

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 1:25 pm

lostinwales wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Anyone else think Eddie Jones was playing around last year.

I think he set England up to lose, beasting them in training a couple of days before a game took its toll on the team, players looked lethargic in an England shirt only to look great once back at their clubs.

Not saying he wanted them to lose but maybe Eddie was playing the long game. That result in Ireland was outstanding and complete out of the blue. Yes we had a good Autumn but even so did Manu and Billy really make that much of a difference?

Yes and no. You could argue about the relative direct contribution from both (good but not game breaking) but I believe both of them had a considerable impact on the players around them. Slade in particular seemed to really enjoy playing alongside Manu

Both seemed to offer more in the first half than the second half when their carries started to drop off. Did Ireland adapt to them which created space for others (notably Slade) to exploit? Or did they both start to tire as they've been away from the International game for a while?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 1:30 pm

Bit of both. The use of tuilagi I thought was really intelligent. Couple of string carries and then use that fear to put others in space.

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Post by Pie on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 1:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit of both. The use of tuilagi I thought was really intelligent. Couple of string carries and then use that fear to put others in space.

So, Warrenball then.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 1:37 pm

Pie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit of both. The use of tuilagi I thought was really intelligent. Couple of string carries and then use that fear to put others in space.

So, Warrenball then.

C- Must try harder.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 07 Feb 2019, 1:42 pm

England's style against Ireland was very physical with skilful touches laid on top. A return to English strengths maybe, and comparisons with Gatball have an element of truth. However in the same way that Gats moved away from that, the England performance was far more nuanced that traditional Gatball. In part it has to be, because the (as has been pointed out) the original concept used five backs that were built like back row forwards, compared to our one.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 5:40 pm

It looks as though Maro’s injury is healing quicker than expected & EJs stated he was hopeful he will be ready for the match against Wales. Apparently he was almost considered for the French game! I find that a little hard to believe?
Anyway, see how Sunday goes and take it from there we have plenty of depth there.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 6:05 pm

I posted this over on the Fra v Eng thread. I humbly believe it's worth repeating here:

robbo277 wrote:Ashton's try against New Zealand was quite early on and Eddie has said he fancies him to score early this week too.

I feel like this is becoming a key trait/approach/tactic for England recently. Not just big starts to the game - I think most people can see that with England, they look to start the game at a physical level that shocks the opposition.

But more than that they're going for the throat from the first minute. No 'warming' into the game; no getting points on the board with a kick or two. First 5 minutes, get a try. Use your best strike move/backplay is you have to. The psychological damage that can cause can't be underestimated, particularly in a big game. If you stop England scoring a try early on, and if you can effectively keep the ball away from them as well, or weather the storm when they do have it in that first quarter, you take something away from them.

I actually think Scotland should go looking for a few 3 pointers early on when they play them in a few weeks' time. Even a few drop goals. Get points on the board and England might be more likely to respond in course rather than having the comfort/confidence to go for tries. I don't think this will happen though. Wales have generally been pretty good at holding them out; France might stop them scoring until the 10 min mark, Italy likewise. But this is more of a 'big game' tactic now for me - they're scoring against the big boys, so perhaps ITA/FRA not really worth looking at in terms of England's type of approach when at their best.

I went and check out the stats England's games since EJ has been in, discarding the Babas and Summer warm up games. These are the results.

It's opposition, location. Result. First English try scorer (minute. If not a try, first England point scorer, type (minute).

2016

SCO, Edin. Won. Kruis (13').
ITA, Rome. Won. Ford (24'). Farrell, pen (11')
IRE, HQ. Won. Watson (57'). Farrell, pen (11')
WAL, HQ. Won. Watson (31'). Farrell, pen (9')
FRA, Paris. Won. Care (11'). Farrell, pen (4')
AUS, Bris. Won. Yarde (31'). Farrell, pen (20')
AUS, Mel. Won. Hartley (18')
AUS, Syd. Won. Cole (10')
SA, HQ. Won. May (10')
FIJI, HQ. Won. Jospeh (3')
ARG, HQ. Won. Penalty try (28'). Farrell, pen (3')
AUS, HQ. Won. Joseph (29'). Farrell, pen (18')

2017

FRA, HQ. Won. Te'o (70'). Farrell, pen (9')
WAL, Car. Won. Youngs (17'). Farrell, pen (10')
ITA, HQ. Won. Cole (23')
SCO, HQ. Won. Joseph (2')
IRE, Dub. Lost. none. Farrell, pen (17')
ARG, San J. Won. Yarde (30'). Ford, pen (16')
ARG, Sant. Won. Ewels (5')
ARG, HQ. Won. Hughes (22'). Ford, pen (6')
AUS, HQ. Won. Daly (53'). Farrell, pen (6')
SAM, HQ. Won. Brown (1')

2018

ITA, Rom. Won. Watson (2')
WAL, HQ. Won. May (2')

SCO, Mur. Lost. Farrell (43'). Farrell, pen (13')
FRA, Par. Lost. May (74'). Farrell, pen (4')
IRE, HQ. Lost. Daly (2')
SA, Joh. Lost. Brown (3'). Daly, pen (1')
SA, Bloe. Lost. Brown (9')
SA, Cape. Won. May (71'). Farrell, pen (9')
SA, HQ. Won. none. Farrell, pen (20')
NZ, HQ. Lost. Ashton (1')
JAP, HQ. Won. Care (2')
AUS, HQ. Won. May (2')


2019

IRE, Dub. Won. May (1)

What's interesting is that this trend started around the time England started losing games, which would suggest a change in the way they started scoring points. There's one result in the first season against Fiji - not hugely unexpected. By and large England are scoring in the first half of their games at this point. Quite a few around the 10 minute mark - this might be relevant, still a fairly early score but not in the first 5 minutes.

Second year there are 3 results - one against Samoa, so similar to Fiji. One on Summer Tour, one against a weakened Scotland. So perhaps not too surprising. Scores are a bit more varied here - a few coming in the second half, and the first score generally coming 'later' around the first-to-second quarter mark.

The third year is telling. 7 games where they scored a 5 pointer in the first 5 minutes. Only 5 games where this didn't happen (another came on 9 mins). Yet they still lost 3 of those 7 games. Read what you want into that - it's not the most telling stat here. But it does show a clear change in clinicality in the opening minutes, and to my mind, it coincided with a shift in tactics/approach as well, as I said in the opening. You can now add May's try against Ireland into this group, so it's 8 tries in the last 13 competitive games where England have scored in the first 5 minutes. What is most telling, though, is the opposition of those 8 games: it's not just the Pacific Islanders or an Argentina, it's the biggest tests. SANZAR, Ireland twice and Wales. Those are the best teams in the world: they're currently ranked 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 in the World. England are 2nd. That's a big stat.

Stop England getting over the tryline in those first 5-10 minutes, when legs and fresh and their physical runners are going full tilt, and you avoid suffering a key psychological blow against them. I have no doubt this is what happened against Ireland - not saying this decides/wins the game, but I do think it plays a massive, massive part. We tend to focus on late points in sport, Fergie time etc., but rarely at the opening but it is just as important too, particularly in a game like Rugby.

In reality, I think it's not just the first 5 mins here. It's an even smaller window than that - it's the first 2. England really do go for the jugular from the first minute and they're getting results with it. Big ask for opposition teams to stop that happening now.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 6:11 pm

Interesting analysis there.
However, If there was one current team in the world that you would expect to stop England from the off it would , ironically, have been Ireland.

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Post by Pie on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 6:51 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Pie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit of both. The use of tuilagi I thought was really intelligent. Couple of string carries and then use that fear to put others in space.

So, Warrenball then.

C- Must try harder.

Yes I agree they do have room for improvement but they've only just adopted it this weekend with Manu so be patient

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 6:52 pm

Welsh wums out on tour. It's only going to ramp up after this weekend.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 7:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Welsh wums out on tour. It's only going to ramp up after this weekend.
Don't worry they will be very quiet the week after.

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 7:13 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Welsh wums out on tour. It's only going to ramp up after this weekend.


That’s a bit rich! You’re one of the biggest WUMs on these boards. You’ve even driven mods away!
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 7:18 pm

I don't wum. 2nd person who has said I've driven a mod away though. Not sure who that was. I guessed biltong but it's never been confirmed.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 7:29 pm

Billtong drove himself away. He was about to implode with his own self righteousness.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 7:30 pm

Can't say if I did push him over that I care a jot. Very unpleasant person and I'd say that about no one else on this site. Going back to and including grey ghost mark 2 through to 22.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 7:42 pm

Not many WUMs on the site tbh. Most believe what they write. What we do have is a mix of very dogmatic posters fully confident in their inherent correctness, plus people almost looking for things to offend them. When the two mix sparks fly.

Any way Wayne Barnes or Nigel Owens?  Whistle

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:01 pm

It'll be a sad day when those 2 leave us. I'm very hopeful on luke Pearce. Think his communication is excellent despite some rough edges.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't say if I did push him over that I care a jot. Very unpleasant person and I'd say that about no one else on this site. Going back to and including grey ghost mark 2 through to 22.

Geez, real classy, knocking the guy after hes left if thats the case. vomit

Hes probably looking to help patch up the remains of Bok rugby after what theyve been through. Good bloke Biltong, and I wish him well and will continue to discuss the game with him on other sites Im sure. Offers a SA perspective you dont get a lot of here, but obviously the different viewpoint isnt appreciated.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:33 pm

Biltong unpleasasnt? Admittedly I had long periods away from these boards but always considered him a really good poster, up there with the likes of Red Stag as fair, intelligent, knowledgable, if still passionate about their own side.


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:36 pm

A guy who ignored an anti English wum for months until they moved onto SA then after 1 set of comments threatened to glass them. A guy who lost his wrag and started to insist SA and in particular black people benefitted from the rule of whites over them. Yeah I'll pass thanks. Don't expect this to stay up but I don't agree with that sort of thing.
He stropped with me simply as he was hissy fitting over the late no arms challenge by Farrell while ignoring similar but worse by his own lock. Hey ho.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:38 pm

And not to make this personal, but to come up with absolute tripe in response to my long comment on England's try stats is the kind of thing that drives people away from these boards 7.5. It wasn't even intelligible but clearly made to derail what is an interesting point and well worth a discussion. I see you getting in similar arguments all over the board - you're either the most subtle troll or, as above, weirdly dogmatic. If someone's saying you're partly responsible for driving someone away from the board maybe have a look at your own behaviour as well rather than labelling them...

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:38 pm

Have an issue with me. Argue. I don't mind. Opinions aren't facts and challenge is to be expected on forums. Too many expect to state things and to be accepted no matter what

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Post by Cyril on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:40 pm

Biltong was a good poster, but lost it a bit towards the end. Being a mod probably does that to you

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:41 pm

We'll never know miaow as you didn't respond to them. Merely sidestepped. As I said you don't watch enough English rugby you base responses on what you expect not necessarily what happens.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:42 pm

SA still had apartheid in the 90s. It's a bit like when we in the UK judge Americans on things like gun laws. Just because SA and the USA speak English and have times to the UK they are very different cultures and produce different attitudes among the people who live there. Even when it seems ridiculous to people in the UK it doesn't mean you're more correct/informed - in fact, certainly not in the latter case.

SA is hardly stable at the moment. Whilst apartheid is obviously wrong it's not, to be crude, a black and white thing where there aren't issues/growing pains as a result of the collapse of the previous political system. Like the power vacuum in Congo after Belgium left, or indeed the Middle East - it's not a black/white issue between colonialism and freedom. I'd hazard a guess you're doing that thing you always do of being deliberatively reductive and misrepresenting what he said in any case. You've done it me plenty of times on something as (relatively) uncontroversial as rugby.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:We'll  never know miaow as you didn't respond to them. Merely sidestepped. As I said you don't watch enough English rugby you base responses on what you expect not necessarily what happens.

As I tried to explain with the quote, being dragged down to your level of 'debate' tends to muddy the discussion because it's not even relevant. In this case I'm not even sure what point you're even making other than 'you're relying on stereotypes not facts'. Headscratch Headscratch Headscratch

The last time you accused me of not watching English rugby was to do with the JJ v JD2 defensive 13 discussion for the Lions. Do you remember that? To say I was vindicated is an understatement - and I take no pleasure from that, merely trying to show you that maybe you don't know what you're talking about! Your lack of humility/self-awareness is painful. You've read something into my post that isn't there and are trying to discuss it on your terms, and not allowing that to happen is apparently a side-step. It's not a side-step. It's avoiding being dragged down.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:49 pm

Hey. I didn't agree with him or his comments. Someone else didn't either and they were removed. I wholly hope you go with not insulting or talking down to other posters miaow. Best of luck for the future.


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:53 pm

Well lets see...
Negative votes received...

Biltong...4
7.5...85

But whos counting... laughing

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:55 pm

Not a clue. I don't even see them or indeed am able to vote on the mobile version Taylor. I don't see it as a negative and personally feel pretty comfortable to challenge posters in their rugby views without a thought for if I'm voted down or up.
I assume mostly those 85 downs weren't against my belief that black people deserve equal treatment though and more against that Gatland and co didn't pick the lions on merit etc.


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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hey. I didn't agree with him or his comments. Someone else didn't either and they were removed. I wholly hope you go with not insulting or talking down to other posters miaow. Best of luck for the future.

I don't really understand thatwhat you mean? Genuinely? Using the quote function would help.

Anyway, sounds like Biltong lost it a bit - threatening to glass someone online is pretty bad sign that something is going wrong offline in someone's personal life. However, I'd say an acute period of 'losing it' doesn't necessarily make someone unpleasant - a persistent history of derailing, trolling, antagonising or generally being twp is probably worse, and more consistent, for 606v2.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 8:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not a clue. I don't even see them or indeed am able to vote on the mobile version Taylor. I don't see it as a negative and personally feel pretty comfortable to challenge posters in their rugby views without a thought for if I'm voted down or up.
I assume mostly those 85 downs weren't against my belief that black people deserve equal treatment though and more against that Gatland and co didn't pick the lions on merit etc.

I dont know, its the tale of the tape. Read it however you wish. Ive never voted myself, nor will I. But others obviously do.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:02 pm

There no quote function in the mobile version miaow or I would. Raised it when the new mods were announced.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:06 pm

Indeed they do Taylor. I'm pretty secure in more dislikes for challenging people and getting people who disagree than wanting apartheid back. Funny old world.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:06 pm

Could be wrong but I hear there might be some rugby this weekend

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:08 pm

lostinwales wrote:Could be wrong but I hear there might be some rugby this weekend

Are you sure?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:10 pm

Fair point.

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Post by miaow on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:17 pm

Literally just wanted to discuss England's fast starts.

https://youtu.be/gm9zeAJMVtc

Good video that touches briefly on the point I made, as well as providing some good analysis on a few different areas.

I think it's fair to say that, as 7 of the 8 tries mentioned have in fact come in the first 2 minutes, this tactic is something that's coming from kick-off. As the video says, it's about manipulating a team in a manner that stops them from getting into the rhythm of the game, as well as utilising set moves/skills to exploit weaknesses they've analysed in the defence.

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Post by lostinwales on Fri 08 Feb 2019, 9:22 pm

miaow wrote:Literally just wanted to discuss England's fast starts.

https://youtu.be/gm9zeAJMVtc

Good video that touches briefly on the point I made, as well as providing some good analysis on a few different areas.

I think it's fair to say that, as 7 of the 8 tries mentioned have in fact come in the first 2 minutes, this tactic is something that's coming from kick-off. As the video says, it's about manipulating a team in a manner that stops them from getting into the rhythm of the game, as well as utilising set moves/skills to exploit weaknesses they've analysed in the defence.

Good stuff and fits in with Eddie trying to be innovative - but I will point out the bleedin obvious and say that nobody is not going to want to score early on if they can.

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