England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

[robbo277]

Was Brown rushed out of the team too quickly? Compare to the 9 position where no one else can seem to get a look in no matter what and it does seem a very different state of affairs. Brown is still showing good form for club too.

That dichotomy puzzles me too. Care and Brown are both out, with Care left behind on the summer tour. While Daly has been given 10 straight starts at full back, Youngs has started at scrum half in all those matches except for the Japan game, which saw Care start.

Eddie was very fervent in his defence of Brown last Six Nations, shortly before he dropped him. Brown also came back to play on the left wing in South Africa. However, Jones has shown absolutely no intention of not using Daly at 15 since South Africa, with Brown being limited to injury cover only.

[Ricardo74]

I think the rotation of Brown to wing, with Daly to FB was to "babysit" the transition of Daly to FB; Brown being on hand in case things went dramatically Pete Tong.

Don't get me started on the lack of game time for Robson, or the lack of development in the 9 position generally. I think Jones has painted himself into a corner, and if Youngs were to pick up an injury which ruled him out for a significant period then what would be the call?

I think Jones would look to Wigglesworth, as a tested operator familiar with the systems and trusted box-kicking, rather than risk Robson, or recall Care.

Which begs the question, what is he doing? It is absolutely imperative Robson starts against Italy!

[Poorfour]

The relentless commitment to Daly is all about giving him enough time in the role prior to the RWC. But I fully expect Brown to be in the squad if fit, because Eddie has no other specialist fullback unless Watson gets back to fitness and has a storming end to the season. (And even then, he's not really got much experience at fullback internationally, so might go as a wing).

I hope Brown is seen as more than just cover, and that Eddie is prepared to use him when the game demands it. But I am less sure than I was.

The scrum half situation makes very little sense. Best guess is that SHs aren't injured that often, so Eddie only really expects to need two - except Care has a real knack for picking up freak injuries at odd times, like his stubbed toe in (IIRC) 2011.

Back row, I suspect, will be determined almost entirely by who is fit at the time. We've got Billy, and we've then got six other players who are very capable at international level, plus a never ending injury list.

[majesticimperialman]

I was surprised when  Danny Care wad dropped from the squad. I honestly thought he was injured at the time they announced the squad for the training camp.

I would assume that if Young's gets injured that Care rather than Wiggleswoth would get the call back into the squad.

[LondonTiger]

The scrum half situation makes very little sense. Best guess is that SHs aren't injured that often, so Eddie only really expects to need two - except Care has a real knack for picking up freak injuries at odd times, like his stubbed toe in (IIRC) 2011.

Youngs injury against Wales in RWC 2015, then against Italy in 6Ns 2018 arguably had an impact on two campaigns that ended in disaster.

I was surprised when  Danny Care wad dropped from the squad. I honestly thought he was injured at the time they announced the squad for the training camp.

I would assume that if Young's gets injured that Care rather than Wiggleswoth would get the call back into the squad.

Care was dropped to the bench for the last 6Ns game in 2018, and excluded from the SA tour. Perhaps due to Robson being injured he was back on the bench for the start of the AIs, played against Japan and then dropped completely (for now). If Youngs were to be injured I think Wiggy would be called up and would start. Care is fighting Robson for the spot of "lively finisher" with the Wasp really not getting much chance to show his worth.

[Rugby Fan]

...Best guess is that SHs aren't injured that often, so Eddie only really expects to need two - except Care has a real knack for picking up freak injuries at odd times, like his stubbed toe in (IIRC) 2011....

Youngs was injured for most of last year's Six Nations. Arguably, Care's failure to impose himself on the remaining games when given a start, was the main factor in Jones starting to look elsewhere. Except, he hasn't really looked elsewhere, because no-one else has racked up game time of any consequence. It's like he's dropped Care, without actually giving anyone a chance to replace him.

[Ricardo74]

So, for me Robson absolutely has to start against Italy. Not because I perceive them as being an easier introduction than any of the other teams, but because there are two games to go and he needs the game time. If it were Scotland next, I'd be calling for him to start that too.

There are some other areas where I think guys could do with a run-out too. Genge needs a start to prove his credentials; Moon had one, now I think Genge needs one.

So, team for Italy:

Daly (don't expect that to change); Cokanasiga, Slade, Manu, Nowell; Farrell / Ford*, Robson
Genge, LCD, Sinckler; Kruis, Launch; Curry, Billy, Shields**

* I want Robson to have game time with Faz, since he's the first choice 10, and if Youngs gets hurt in the first 5 mins of a game, Robson and Faz need to know one another's game. That said, Ford needs game time, and we need to see England perform without Faz dragging them up.

** Shields is fit, and should get some game time. Curry looked outstanding in the first half against Wales, and in the continued absence of Frodo should play. I can see an argument for resting Billy, but he's not long back from injury and let's get those game minutes racked up.

[Sharkey06]

I always thought that Care was a finisher rather than a starter - that certainly fits his playing style.  It seems unfair (and shooting England in the foot) if we drop Care completely because he had a poor game starting against Japan.  I accept his kicking is not great which is a bit surprising seeing as he had trials as a footballer, but he is the best sniping scrum half we have.

Agree with what has been said that Jones is likely to call up Wigglesworth if Youngs gets injured.  Perhaps after 80 odd caps he is trying to make Youngs feel like he is the main man at no 9 having shared the shirt for so many years with Care.

[propdavid_london]

What I don't understand is - how we use our bench.
That extended run of wins 'way back' primarily involved England keeping the game close and then unloading the (finishers) to completely change the game and tempo.

Guys like Teo, Care, Nowell, George came on and made significant impacts - Switching Farrell from 12 to 10 dramatically changed how England played in the last 20mins of a match.

Clever use of the bench and changes in tactics are what made the difference in so many of those games.
So, can anyone explain why (even in the wins against France and Ireland) there was very little change coming from the bench.

For me especially its that injection of tempo that came from Care that changed so much of the game.
I agree 100% he is a finisher and not a starter. But why the heck wasn't Robson given the chance to change a game that wasn't going to plan!

[robbo277]

What I don't understand is - how we use our bench.
That extended run of wins 'way back' primarily involved England keeping the game close and then unloading the (finishers) to completely change the game and tempo.

Guys like Teo, Care, Nowell, George came on and made significant impacts - Switching Farrell from 12 to 10 dramatically changed how England played in the last 20mins of a match.

Clever use of the bench and changes in tactics are what made the difference in so many of those games.  
So, can anyone explain why (even in the wins against France and Ireland) there was very little change coming from the bench.  

For me especially its that injection of tempo that came from Care that changed so much of the game.  
I agree 100% he is a finisher and not a starter.  But why the heck wasn't Robson given the chance to change a game that wasn't going to plan!

We could have finished the game with a backline of Robson, Ford, Farrell and Tuilagi/Slade, kept the ball in hand and moved it to our outside backs in the wider channels, rather than just kicking it. At the very least, it would have given Wales a different threat to try to combat.

I'd like to see us start Robson and Ford against Italy and look to play in that way. We've shown we can play the kicking game for 2.5 games, but possibly held onto it a bit too long. Now we need to show a bit more ball in hand. Out of the 6 players wearing 9, 10, 12, 13, 21 and 22 this Six Nations, we should be able to cobble together two backlines capable of executing 2 different styles of play, and if we can't we need to change the personnel.

If we have that twin threat of being able to play a territory-based game and a possession-based game and can switch up during matches, we'll be so much more dangerous than if it's just one or the other. Ideally we'd be able to cycle between the two to an extent without having to change the personnel, but sometimes it's making the substitution that really refocuses minds.

[Rugby Fan]

...So, can anyone explain why (even in the wins against France and Ireland) there was very little change coming from the bench....

I outlined some ideas on the locked Wales England thread. Since I am so in love with myself, I'll quote them here too:

There are a few reasons why Jones might not have brought the other England subs on earlier.

England led the game until the last ten minutes. Wales had much the better of that second half, but it's possible Jones wanted to see whether the players could solve the onfield problems themselves. We now know that they couldn't. It'll be up to everyone to work out why that is, and if there's something they can do about it.

It's also been true in some England games against Wales that substitutions midway through the second half have given Wales impetus. It happened that way in 2015 and 2016, resulting in a loss and a close-run thing. Jones might have thought team cohesion, especially in defence, was a better way to combat a Welsh team with its tail up.

We saw against Ireland, that Jones was slow to bring on substitutes. After Kruis was swapped, and Itoje injured, no-one else got on except for the last three minutes. For whatever reason, he might be resisting using his bench.

Another possibility is that Jones doesn't trust his bench. This seems less likely since he's used several of the players before but you can't rule it out.

One idea I didn't spell out is that Jones might not want to run through the England playbook before the World Cup. That sounds daft but you do hear ex-players and pundits often suggesting that Schmidt, Hansen or some other manager will be keeping something up their sleeve for the tournament. I think Taylorman suggested the All Blacks once imposed a limit on themselves - I forget what exactly but it might have been kicking in certain situations - to get better used to working out problems on the pitch.

Then again, if that really is the rationale (it's a longshot), then it ought to be possible to bring the subs on and tell them to stick to the same plan, and not try anything different. Can't see there is anything to be gained by not playing them at all.

[robbo277]

...So, can anyone explain why (even in the wins against France and Ireland) there was very little change coming from the bench....

I outlined some ideas on the locked Wales England thread. Since I am so in love with myself, I'll quote them here too:

There are a few reasons why Jones might not have brought the other England subs on earlier.

England led the game until the last ten minutes. Wales had much the better of that second half, but it's possible Jones wanted to see whether the players could solve the onfield problems themselves. We now know that they couldn't. It'll be up to everyone to work out why that is, and if there's something they can do about it.

It's also been true in some England games against Wales that substitutions midway through the second half have given Wales impetus. It happened that way in 2015 and 2016, resulting in a loss and a close-run thing. Jones might have thought team cohesion, especially in defence, was a better way to combat a Welsh team with its tail up.

We saw against Ireland, that Jones was slow to bring on substitutes. After Kruis was swapped, and Itoje injured, no-one else got on except for the last three minutes. For whatever reason, he might be resisting using his bench.

Another possibility is that Jones doesn't trust his bench. This seems less likely since he's used several of the players before but you can't rule it out.

One idea I didn't spell out is that Jones might not want to run through the England playbook before the World Cup. That sounds daft but you do hear ex-players and pundits often suggesting that Schmidt, Hansen or some other manager will be keeping something up their sleeve for the tournament. I think Taylorman suggested the All Blacks once imposed a limit on themselves - I forget what exactly but it might have been kicking in certain situations - to get better used to working out problems on the pitch.

Then again, if that really is the rationale (it's a longshot), then it ought to be possible to bring the subs on and tell them to stick to the same plan, and not try anything different. Can't see there is anything to be gained by not playing them at all.

In our Under-18 league, we once had an odd situation where us and another team had beaten everyone else in the league before we were due to play our final (postponed) league game 1 week before the league final was due to be played, against the same opposition. We made as many changes as we could, the coach banned us from using any "moves" and I think we even changed our line out calls for the regular season game (which we could afford to lose). It was a very odd game to play in. Do I buy into Eddie Jones doing something similar for this entire Six Nations? I'm not sure, it's definitely a long shot.

I think he just thought he had his best 15 on and backed them to turn it around. We don't have the counter-factual, if at 16-13 down Eddie had emptied his bench and we had ended up with say a 19-13 scoreline, there would probably be people saying that he should have kept his gun players on longer because they were more likely to hurt Wales, the subs were ineffectual etc etc.

[Guest]

I can’t see Eddie Jones opting for many changes. Daly wasn’t at fault, probably stood more chance than the shorter Brown.

I can imagine that 1/2 inch making all the difference......

Height can help at FB but it does't help with technique. Brown is much stronger in the air than Daly and rarely drops anything, quite the opposite in Daly's case. I was waiting for a game when Daly would be exposed for his lack of skill in taking the high ball, thankfully this is prior to a knockout situation in the WC.

All 3 of England's back 3 got caught out in very different ways. Nowell for height, Daly for positioning and leap, and May for running sideways after claiming a kick and getting turned over. With the trend being to pick two fullback-esque players in the 3 it seems madness that England and Ireland (and France) played a big part in their own downfall by selecting non fullbacks at 15. Perhaps better in the long run but if England or Ireland miss out on a title by a point or two, admittedly they've got recent success to fall back on but I'm sure they'll kick themselves.

[BamBam]

Sounds like training has been feisty 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-6752971/amp/England-stars-brawl-Georgia-counterparts-kids.html?__twitter_impression=true

[yappysnap]

I always thought that Care was a finisher rather than a starter - that certainly fits his playing style.  It seems unfair (and shooting England in the foot) if we drop Care completely because he had a poor game starting against Japan.  I accept his kicking is not great which is a bit surprising seeing as he had trials as a footballer, but he is the best sniping scrum half we have.

Agree with what has been said that Jones is likely to call up Wigglesworth if Youngs gets injured.  Perhaps after 80 odd caps he is trying to make Youngs feel like he is the main man at no 9 having shared the shirt for so many years with Care.

The thing is Care has really poor games with the kicking, but other times it's no worse then Youngs, and there are times when it is brilliant, he can be a talent and a game winner, especially when he's backed by his coach and given some room to operate.

[Ricardo74]

Sounds like training has been feisty 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-6752971/amp/England-stars-brawl-Georgia-counterparts-kids.html?__twitter_impression=true

Good. Get some fire in the belly while we prepare for two home games which could, other results pending, deliver us the championship if we take maximum points. The loss to Wales should hurt, the confrontation in training should spark some life, and hopefully we come out and put Italy to the sword.

[Guest]

Wonder if they were triggered by getting battered in the scrums by swarthy-looking men in red...for the second time in a week

https://youtu.be/ctqYLOmddGo?t=2668

[robbo277]

I always thought that Care was a finisher rather than a starter - that certainly fits his playing style.  It seems unfair (and shooting England in the foot) if we drop Care completely because he had a poor game starting against Japan.  I accept his kicking is not great which is a bit surprising seeing as he had trials as a footballer, but he is the best sniping scrum half we have.

Agree with what has been said that Jones is likely to call up Wigglesworth if Youngs gets injured.  Perhaps after 80 odd caps he is trying to make Youngs feel like he is the main man at no 9 having shared the shirt for so many years with Care.

The thing is Care has really poor games with the kicking, but other times it's no worse then Youngs, and there are times when it is brilliant, he can be a talent and a game winner, especially when he's backed by his coach and given some room to operate.

The 30-6 game against Australia springs to mind. 9-6 when he came on, 3 converted tries in 20-odd minutes, Care at the heart of all of it. Some clever kicks leading to tries as well if memory serves.

[Poorfour]

The 30-6 game against Australia springs to mind. 9-6 when he came on, 3 converted tries in 20-odd minutes, Care at the heart of all of it. Some clever kicks leading to tries as well if memory serves.

He's probably got the best eye for space in an open game of any player I've seen - but doesn't have the same level of control as Youngs or Wigglesworth to run a structured game. That said, I'd like to see Eddie start him alongside Farrell. I always thought that Lancaster's teams played best when the 9/10 pairings were Care / Farrell and Youngs / Ford; Youngs / Farrell was always a bit staid for me - two very good percentage players.

[Ricardo74]

I suppose the door has closed on any chance of Robson / Cipriani...

[LordDowlais]

tut...tut.. looks like the England boys are still getting into trouble, they must have serious discipline problems.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-players-vent-anger-after-15899359

[Pie]

Sounds like training has been feisty 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-6752971/amp/England-stars-brawl-Georgia-counterparts-kids.html?__twitter_impression=true

Good. Get some fire in the belly while we prepare for two home games which could, other results pending, deliver us the championship if we take maximum points. The loss to Wales should hurt, the confrontation in training should spark some life, and hopefully we come out and put Italy to the sword.

I think fire in the belly may be the problem. What they need is less fire and more composure

[yappysnap]

Nah, you look at the WalesvEng game and the Welsh are all screaming and red in the face like it's their RWC final (understandable), England players look steady and focused but didn't look intense enough about getting the win. Obv people will troll on about Manu and Synk but those two live on passion and aggression and even for them it was just another day at the office.

This kind of training is just what they need to get the emotions going.

[Guest]

Not sure Farrell was looking steady and focused when shanking the ball in the air in the opening minutes, and then again in the second-half. No doubt Wales were fired up, but so were some English players. They were trying to keep the fire under wraps but, clearly, they were anything but cool, as they didn't have the collective focus and clarity to adapt and then beat Wales. Nothing to do with fire - the days of winning test matches based on 'heart' as one of the fundamental aspects seem long gone. No doubt it has its place, but if English fans start clutching at straws about why they lost to Wales - in part based on parochial xenophobia about Wales treating the gane as their 'RWC final' - you're likely to be in for a nasty shock in Japan.

[yappysnap]

wow

[Rugby Fan]

...in part based on parochial xenophobia about Wales treating the game as their 'RWC final'...

That's a rough thing to say, given that former Welsh players were talking, during the build-up, of home matches against England being as big a deal as any match for a Welsh team. What else is everyone supposed to conclude when they say that?

If you want to say this Welsh team can be clinical and professional to win key games, without relying heavily on finite reserves of hwyl, then you can make that argument without attacking the motives of anyone who is just repeating what former Welsh international players say.

[Guest]

Yeah, I suppose you're right. In hindsight, it was always going to be tough for England, wasn't it, coming up against a team treating the fixture as their Everest.

To make matters worse, only 3 weeks before England had played in their own 'RWC final' out in Dublin - hard to get up for this game, really, after such heady heights...








The pseudo-psychology in this thread/on the forum in general over the last week or so has been pretty atrocious. Added to that is some cultural obliviousness for a nice mix of 'let's deflect from the real reasons England lost in Cardiff'. But there we are. It's strange, being on the outside and basicially 'seeing' England a lot clearer than most of their fans do. As I said before the game, the weaknesses aren't obvious but they are there, and Wales picked at the stitches and unravelled them.

If you don't believe England wer as fired up as Wales - or if you truly believe you can simply say Sinckler and Tuilagi are 'emotional' players where, for AWJ and Ken Owens, it's the pinnacle of their careers - then there's no hope.

RWC final-esque: https://youtu.be/ctqYLOmddGo?t=2845

Last 5 minutes of RWC final-esque: https://youtu.be/ctqYLOmddGo?t=4731

Just listen to the commentary on that last clip. Says it all. This is an England thread, and I'm happy to leave it, but I've made a few good contributions and, I think, very fair statements on England and their abilities on it. Wales are 3rd in the world rankings, have been for a while, make up a bulk of key Lions test players, have 2 6Ns titles under their belts for about a third of the squad...and this game is a RWC final to them? Jeez...

[Rugby Fan]

...The pseudo-psychology in this thread/on the forum in general over the last week or so has been pretty atrocious....

Still don't see what parochialism or xenophobia have to do with anything. "The other team wanted it more" is the standard, trite explanation rolled out by pundits from every country when their side has lost. Are you confident that no-one Welsh will say that after a furture Welsh defeat (whenever that next arises)?

[Guest]

Basically, treating Wales as a backwards, small-time growth on the side of England that only cares about beating them. Clearly, however ambitious and perhaps unlikely to achieve it may be, Wales' RWC final is...the RWC final.

[Cyril]

It was a Welsh fan on here who posted about it being Wales’ ‘RWC Final’.

[No 7&1/2]

Hopefully that's England's choke out of the way on the path to our own world cup final.

[Guest]

...the path to our own world cup final.

Revenge against Scotland? Fair play, beats the losing streak of 2018 I suppose... (this is a joke...)

Anyway, been instructed by mods to leave it. Xenophobia's probably a bit harsh but the general dismissiveness of Wales/Welshness has more than a hint of bias to it. It also feels like hyperbole has been taken at face value to justify why England lost...but there we go.

Rewatched the game last night. May not as bad in the air as I thought - one stupid sideways run resulting in a turnover, and two taps going to Welsh hands, made me thought he was poorer than he was. But Daly was exploited time and again. Nowhere near good enough in the air and I can't see him staying in the 15 shirt for Japan.

[No 7&1/2]

I love the 6 nations but in a way I miss the feel.ofna European campaign or indeed the rugby championship as I want to.play Wales again this week. As it is we have the traditional beat Italy easy and get criticised anyway game.

[Geordie]

Basically, treating Wales as a backwards, small-time growth on the side of England that only cares about beating them. Clearly, however ambitious and perhaps unlikely to achieve it may be, Wales' RWC final is...the RWC final.

But they are...aren't they?

[Pie]

Nah, you look at the WalesvEng game and the Welsh are all screaming and red in the face like it's their RWC final (understandable), England players look steady and focused but didn't look intense enough about getting the win. Obv people will troll on about Manu and Synk but those two live on passion and aggression and even for them it was just another day at the office.

This kind of training is just what they need to get the emotions going.

really, its trolling to call out those thugs? Passion and aggression has nought to do with grabbing people by the throat or round the neck in a ruck.

even in defeat we are back to the myopic perspective on where England are at again

steady and focussed on choking out Alun Wyn (Sinckler) and Liam (Manu) perhaps

No under Welsh were red in the face

I'd say they were steady and focussed on bugger all and didnt have a clue how to react to Wales gameplan while being utterly outclassed in the back 3.

[mikey_dragon]

It was a Welsh fan on here who posted about it being Wales’ ‘RWC Final’.

Yeah and it was his point of view only; a few posters put him straight for trying to speak on Wales’ behalf, to which he reacted rather childishly.

There’s no doubt it’s a big game for Wales; England are our nearest and dearest. Deep down I think there is a mutual respect between the two (more-so the the players and coaches than all of the fans), and on this occasion the team knew they had to be really up for it because; 1. England are very good, 2. Key decisions made by officials didn’t go Wales’ way in the last 3 fixtures.

If we don’t get up for any game we’ll lose, so we’ve probably been up for most of the last 12 games. When you’re nearest rival comes to town rated as one of the best in the world and threatens your win streak and tournament hopes then yeah, it’s obviously a massive game. You’d be delusional to think that it wasn’t the same for England. We’ve even seen English posters here state that it’s the big game for them in the 6N (perhaps in part due to France’s decline and Australia getting buggered all the time). Anyone who states it’s our world cup final is wrong, it’s quite the stretch, and with the way it’s going out next two games are now bigger for us.

Once we reach the World Cup final in Japan we’ll be back to let you know how it stacks up, just for arguments sake .

[Pie]

It was a Welsh fan on here who posted about it being Wales’ ‘RWC Final’.

Sure

Only no it wasn't

But for Eng yet again it was a big game squandered - another GS choked on, although of course we all know that the GS isn't important to England, especially in a RWC year right

[Duty281]

Wales are 3rd in the world rankings, have been for a while

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings for about four days.

[Yoda]

Personally I didn't think grandslam was on as I think this current England team has far too few caps to be resilient enough to get the tough jobs done (could still get beaten by the Scots as well).the only surprising results for me so far was Ireland England round 1 and Italy Ireland round 3.

Wales England was an ugly street fight of a game rather than a boxing masterclass. Lured into a dark alley and suckered punched by a hard nut. We have a stupid habit of overreacting to defeat and do a lot of navel gazing. We were beaten by a good team away from home who by the way don't just raise their game for us. Good teams lose games away it happens. I don't think any sensible Welsh fan will get too carried away and any sensible England would throw their hands up in despair and think everything has gone wrong.

On an aside I bet Cardiff was buzzing and ladies and gents enjoyed their evening! Surely that's the real purpose of rugby enjoying the beer come win lose or draw?

[lostinwales]

Lovely to see a thread about England ending up being about Wales, again.

[Yoda]

Erm good point well made, my bad.

[robbo277]

You're never as good as you are after a win, you're never as bad as you are after a loss. We could play Wales at the Principality again tomorrow and we might win it this time, might lose again. Wales were better on the day, but a different day will bring a different game and maybe a different result.

England will beat Italy and if we can beat Scotland then it's been a good tournament, regardless of the Wales game. 3 home wins is the bare minimum and 1 away win against one of the "top 3 elite" isn't bad. And we could even end up with a Championship still.

[Guest]

Wales are 3rd in the world rankings, have been for a while

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings for about four days.

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings since June 2018. England temporarily nudged ahead of them after the win against Ireland saw a big points swing between those two teams, but Wales beating England restored Wales to third place again. So, for the last 220-odd days, or7 and a half months, Wales have been out of 3rd for bit a smidge.

Happy to clear that one up for you

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/latest-world-rugby-rankings-see-14793639

[Guest]

You're never as good as you are after a win, you're never as bad as you are after a loss. We could play Wales at the Principality again tomorrow and we might win it this time, might lose again. Wales were better on the day, but a different day will bring a different day and a different result.

England will beat Italy and if we can beat Scotland then it's been a good tournament, regardless of the Wales game. 3 home wins is the bare minimum and 1 away win against one of the "top 3 elite" isn't bad. And we could even end up with a Championship still.

Spot on, nothing to disagree with there. I still make England tournament favourites due to fixture list and bonus points gained so far.

[Duty281]

Wales are 3rd in the world rankings, have been for a while

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings for about four days.

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings since June 2018.

No, they've been 3rd in the world rankings since the 25th February 2019.

[Duty281]

England will beat Italy and if we can beat Scotland then it's been a good tournament, regardless of the Wales game. 3 home wins is the bare minimum and 1 away win against one of the "top 3 elite" isn't bad. And we could even end up with a Championship still.

Spot on, as long as the performance against Scotland is good.

[Guest]

Wales are 3rd in the world rankings, have been for a while

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings for about four days.

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings since June 2018.

No, they've been 3rd in the world rankings since the 25th February 2019.

Sad...

[Pie]

Wales are 3rd in the world rankings, have been for a while

Wales have been 3rd in the world rankings for about four days.

After lending 3rd place to England for a while

[Pie]

Anyway much as I can see English fans are hard at work navel gazing to create a narrative that works around how they gave the game away but didnt actually lose very much of anything at all, I'd advocate looking ahead to a tough Italian side who ran well for a period against Scots and wobbled the Irish. Just sayin'

[Rugby Fan]

I think recent posts suggest closing the Wales-England match thread early was a bad idea, since they would be more at home over there.

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