European Tour - 2019

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Post by GPB on Mon 14 Jan 2019, 6:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

New Year, Time for a New Thread.

EuroTour makes it 2019 Debut this week with the Abu Dhabi HSBC Classic Presented by EGA.  Next week is Dubai and the following week is the New Saudi Event

Guessing that the EGA Presentation got Abu Dhabi a promotion to a Rolex Series event.


DJ and BK are playing in Abu Dhabi.  So is Fleetwood, Stenson, Oosthuizen, RCB, Barnrat, Poulter, and Oleson

Despite the the Hired Guns from USA and Rolex Promotion, Abu Dhabi will have its lowest OWGR rating in 10 yrs.  Pelley can't be happy about that.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 1:22 am

GPB wrote:Hey Sam Torrance,  Woosie also won both the Masters and the BMW PGA.

Seems like every notable Euro has won the BMW PGA.

Well except Westy.


Thought you were going to say "every notable Euro has won" The Masters for a moment . . . . . .

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:35 am

GPB wrote:Hey Sam Torrance,  Woosie also won both the Masters and the BMW PGA.

Seems like every notable Euro has won the BMW PGA.

Well except Westy.
...and Torrance.
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Post by pedro on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:38 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
GPB wrote:Hey Sam Torrance,  Woosie also won both the Masters and the BMW PGA.

Seems like every notable Euro has won the BMW PGA.

Well except Westy.
...and Torrance.
Laugh

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 6:29 pm

Decent field in Napa for this week's Safeway tournament, with a number of top pros adding tournaments to satisfy the Tour's requirement to play an event they've not played recently.
Which is why Francesco Molinari will be on hand.
No other notable Europeans other than the usual suspects . . . . .


Elsewhere, Jeff Sluman played his 1,000 PGA Tour/Champions Tour event this past weekend - $30M in career earnings have quietly made him a wealthy man (I hope).

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Post by McLaren on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 7:55 pm

Willetts swing looked so much better than it used to, even when he won the Masters.
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Post by super_realist on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 8:02 pm

McLaren wrote:Willetts swing looked so much better than it used to, even when he won the Masters.

It really did Mac. Excellent swing.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:35 pm

Danny Willett is compiling quite the CV, with tournaments won including:

BMW International
NedBank
European Masters
Dubai Desert Classic
The Augusta Member Guest
Dubai World Tour Championship
BMW PGA.

Keep healthy Danny . . . . . . . .

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Post by pedro on Mon 23 Sep 2019, 9:53 pm

Willett off to a good start in the 2020 Ryder Cup qualification. Would love to see him play the RC again - preferably with his brother on the bag to close the mouth of the baying mob of imbeciles.

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Post by GPB on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 4:33 pm

Bill MUrray is one of the amateur partners in the Alfred Dunhill Links this week. Presumably to play with his ATT Pebble Beach Pro partner, DA Points who is in the field.

https://www.alfreddunhilllinks.com/bill-murray-centre-stage-as-hollywood-stars-get-ready-for-a-golfing-role/

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Post by robopz on Tue 24 Sep 2019, 5:15 pm

IMO the new PGA tour schedule is starting to look like a real win-win for both the PGAT & ET. At least the fall portion of it anyway.

It gives the dual tour ET guys some nice windows to go back to ET to play more (if they want), while greatly improving the quality of the fields for both the BMW and Dunhill Links. I don't know how the rest of the fall schedule will work out field strength wise, but it's off to a good start.

And on the PGAT side of it, 11 events in 10 weeks are now on the fall portion of the schedule. That's almost 25% of the 49 scheduled events over 44 weeks. It appears more of the top tier players are realizing they are going to have to play more in the fall which props those fields up a bit. Greenbrier moved from the summer to the fall and did almost as well field-wise. Sanderson Farms escaping alternate status had a marginally better field, and the Napa Safeway event looks to be way up this week. Houston will probably take a hit losing its pre-Master's date, but most everything else in the fall is looking for a possible uptick.

And with the ET event minimum now being 4 (affectively 3 for PC or RC qualified players), I expect more full-time PGA players to follow Reed, Horschel & Schauffele's lead in taking ET affiliate membership in the future. Guys like that and future ones may only play a few events on the ET, but getting a few more over for even a minimum number of events is a boost for the ET.

I think what's going to be most telling is the field strengths for the Nedbank and Turkey Rolex events. The fields were embarrassments the last couple years. Maybe the enhanced point structure for those two will help. Italy playing in the fall looks like it might be getting at least a modest field improvement too.




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Post by JAS on Thu 26 Sep 2019, 1:13 pm

Pedant moment!! The Carnoustie scorecard in the new European Tour site/app is incorrect. The 5th (Brae) is a Par 4 and the 6th (Hogans) is a par 5. They’re the wrong way round on the card.

It’s correct on the old app.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 26 Sep 2019, 2:09 pm

Given your scores on that course jas I am not sure we should assume you are any level of expert on Carnoustie.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 7:54 am

JAS wrote:Pedant moment!! The Carnoustie scorecard in the new European Tour site/app is incorrect. The 5th (Brae) is a Par 4 and the 6th (Hogans) is a par 5. They’re the wrong way round on the card.

It’s correct on the old app.

I think the Dunhill would be a lot more interesting if they rotated the course upon which the final round was played. TOC is a BORING venue for a final round. Be great to share it with the fantastic Kingsbarns and superior Carnoustie.

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Post by McLaren on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 8:37 am

Never mind changing the courses if they dumped the celebrities it would be a lot better.
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Post by super_realist on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 8:41 am

Must gall you to see them play TOC Mac.
Do you ever go and watch?

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Post by JAS on Fri 27 Sep 2019, 11:58 am

McLaren wrote:Given your scores on that course jas I am not sure we should assume you are any level of expert on Carnoustie.

You could say I have a very wide and varied knowledge of the course :-p
Besides, I buffered in the last medal round I played there, it was the conditions on the medal day on the Buddon Links that screwed up the Tassie for me this year. The 1st & 18th fairways of the Buddon form the driving range this week and the 18th green is the practice chipping area. Quite frankly I’d be quite happy if they made that permanent, much prefer the Burnside as the 2nd Course.

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Post by JAS on Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:04 am

Meanwhile at the Dunhill, the lad from my neck of the woods hits the front. Hope he has a better finish to his weekend than last week. Forced himself into contention on the Sat then had a horror start to his Sunday round, good that he’s putting himself right back in the mix the following week.

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Post by GPB on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 2:15 am

Rory is unhappy

https://twitter.com/SkySportsGolf/status/1178391483499438080

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Post by super_realist on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 6:50 am

GPB wrote:Rory is unhappy

https://twitter.com/SkySportsGolf/status/1178391483499438080

I'm not sure why he is unhappy, scoring is much easier on the PGA tour. Scores in the minus 20's are "par for the course"

Even if it's rather hypocritical over the PGA scores, it's good to see a golfer express an opinion rather than just dish out media friendly and dreary platitudes like most of the players do.

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Post by McLaren on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 11:56 am

I can't really work out his point, no matter what the score to par is the player with the lowest score wins. He was 7 shots away this weekend, if the course was tougher he might just be 3 shots back but in the same position.

Also he is not famed for his prowess on tough courses.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:26 pm

Compared to whom, Mac?

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Post by McLaren on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 1:07 pm

Kwini

Lowrey for starters. Tiger, Spieth, Rose, Rickie of current top players.

Are you picking me up on this because you agree with Rory or just to have a go at me.

I suspect like is usually the case with Rory is that he couldn't hole enough putts, whether for par on a tough set up or for birdie on an "easy" one.

Do you really think the course set ups had anything to do with his finishes at the Scottish open and dunhill?
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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 1:55 pm

McLaren wrote:Kwini

Lowrey for starters. Tiger, Spieth, Rose, Rickie of current top players.

Are you picking me up on this because you agree with Rory or just to have a go at me.

I suspect like is usually the case with Rory is that he couldn't hole enough putts, whether for par on a tough set up or for birdie on an "easy" one.

Do you really think the course set ups had anything to do with his finishes at the Scottish open and dunhill?


Apart from Shane, who Rory beat into second place in Hamilton, none of these guys have won anything since April, in which time Rors has won twice times on relatively challenging courses. Plus TPC Sawgrass is hardly the most forgiving course.
How can you even put Fowler in the same sentence as McIlroy?

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Post by super_realist on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 2:05 pm

Fowler? Mr inconsistent?

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Post by McLaren on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 2:13 pm

Kwini

They are all players who seem more capable of coping with adverse conditions, and since when was this conversation limited to the last six months?

The general point is that Rory would not suddenly be winning more ET events if the US opened all their venues.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 2:16 pm

Mac,
He was talking about challenging courses, not adverse conditions.
And your "general point" more resembles a presidential tweet than a coherent thought . . . . . . .
But Rickie will now doubt be happy that he's passed your litmus test.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 2:20 pm

I think it's pretty preposterous to claim that McIlroy is not good on challenging courses, but then Mac is the master of absurdity.

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Post by JAS on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 2:42 pm

Hmmm, it does seem like a very odd comment to be making given the tournament and the peculiarities of the tournament I.e. it was a pro-am therefore the  courses were never going to be on their toughest set up. 2 of the courses are Major venues and could have been cranked up with much tougher pins resulting in a lot of Ams 3-4 putting. Look at the scoring differences between the Dunhill and the Open. As another example look at the scoring differences between the AT&T (the PGAT equivalent in terms of 3 different courses and amateur partners) and the US Open at PB.
The other thing with those events is that the pins are the same for 3 days so by day 3 a top pro and top caddy will have sussed out any pin positions that demand a bit more attention.
As an aside, in the absence of a more plausible explanation, I do wonder if the outburst had anything to do with JP being on the bag of the winner??

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Post by GPB on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 3:15 pm

Perhaps the scores are better on the PGATour because the players are better on the PGATour.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 4:31 pm

GPB wrote:Perhaps the scores are better on the PGATour because the players are better on the PGATour.

Or maybe because a lot of the course on the US tour are really boring and similar and rely on target golf on incredibly receptive greens with very little rough.


Last edited by super_realist on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 5:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by GPB on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 5:10 pm

IMO, better players = better scores.

I know its radical thinking and hard to comprehend, but I am here to think outside the box.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 5:11 pm

Not denying that the players at the top of the PGA are better than those at the top in the European Tour, but there is greater variety of golf course type on the Euro Tour. I think the journeyman on both tours are of similar standard.

A lot of the courses on the PGA are exceptionally drab, open and lacking challenge and on which players are only required to play one type of golf.  For example, no heathland, no links to speak of and quite generic weather. Therefore I'd expect the scores to be better in general.
Perfectly plausible that US courses are even easier than European ones and it's quite easy to make an argument for that.

Just offering an alternative view to your typical Euro bashing and one which offers an explanation as to why SOME of the scores in SOME tournaments are very low on the PGA.

Saying that in regards to the Dunhill, Kingsbarns and Old Course are very easy courses without a moderate wind blowing, i.e +20mph
I was surprised the course records didn't go on either course. The R and A must be bricking themselves for the day that someone shoots sub 60 there as people will soon realise the crown jewel of the Open rota is just a pitch and putt.

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Post by GPB on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 5:55 pm

IME, all courses play more difficult in heavier winds and driving rain.

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Post by robopz on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 8:04 pm

IMO both the PGA and Euro Tour's are "stuck" RE scoring these days. Scores are going low and destined to go lower, with not a whole lot they can do about.

With the advances in equipment and athletes, there are only 4 effective defenses the vast majority of courses have, even at the Tour level... 1) Firm, 2) fast, 3) rough & 4) wind.

I know it's sacrilege to say so, but quite frankly the links courses on the Open Rota have been mostly obsoleted because there's virtually NO way to set them up. If they get the rough up and get them firm & fast then you get reasonable scores. But if they get wind with those conditions, they become virtually unplayable... and if they get lots of rain and lose firmness/speed, there's NOTHING to stop the pros from tearing them up. So what does a setup committee do? The WORST possible outcome is to have an unplayable venue so they have to moderate the setup.

It's same thing over here. Basically the PGA Tour setup folks "play it safe". Believe it or not, they actually WANT firmer, faster conditions. Problem is over the last few years we just haven't been getting them much. We have been getting so much rain, it's like almost every venue is getting softened to the max before the players ever get there or during the week they are there. That means regardless of how tough the reputation of the course, players are throwing darts and nothing the Tour can do to stop it. Only thing they could do is go even deeper with the roughs... but players and fans alike generally HATE that... makes for even MORE boring golf than ever...

so SURE... a lot of the PGA Tour courses are boring as balls, because regardless of how pretty or dramatic they might look, they still all play the same way... But then just as boring are the vast majority of holes on the majority of the Open Rota courses too, just in a different way.

I've come to the conclusion that the few of us who want tougher conditions are the outliers anyway... Chicks dig the long ball, and they love low scoring... and so does about 90+% of everybody else... So a few of us can whine about it all we want (me included)... but it ain't changing...

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 8:14 pm

Along those lines, it'll be interesting (instructive?) to see what changes Nicklaus makes to MV to bring it up to date. We've heard tell of more length for #'s 8, 11 & 15, but I bet he improves the drainage as well, perhaps also redefines some of the bunkering.

Also don't have a problem with wind and rain - in the immortal words of Lucas Glover: "Golf is an outdoor sport".

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Post by robopz on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 8:43 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Along those lines, it'll be interesting (instructive?) to see what changes Nicklaus makes to MV to bring it up to date. We've heard tell of more length for #'s 8, 11 & 15, but I bet he improves the drainage as well, perhaps also redefines some of the bunkering.

Also don't have a problem with wind and rain - in the immortal words of Lucas Glover: "Golf is an outdoor sport".
Agree with Lucas... I don't have a problem with wind or rain either... Only problem is, (and if the USGA has taught us ANYTHING) if they set the course up too close to the edge figuring little/no wind... and then enough wind comes up and dries the course out significantly or the greens are too fast to hold balls in place.... they've lost the course and the integrity of the competition. That's why the the two big tours err on the conservative side, and will continue to do so.

IMO the "sweet spot" for scoring is somewhere between 10-15 under. That's tough enough it's not a total birdie fest, but it still allows for some birdies and excitement. But if they set up for that figuring for moderately firm/fast... and then they get rain... it can go to 20-25 under in a heartbeat. I think that's what we're seeing. Look at Silverado this week... played almost a cupcake when it was calm... played MUCH harder when the breeze was up even a little. If they hadn't gotten that breeze... it would have been 20-under or lower winning there too...

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Post by GPB on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 10:51 pm

There is such an elegant solution to scores in -20 somethings.

No more par 5's on the PGATour. Don't care how long the hole is. Par 68 is the standard.

We won't see many scores at -20 or better.,

And remember, it will still be the low score that wins. (except maybe the Reno tournament)

Back when Trevino won the Open at Birkdale. It was a par 73. Two years ago, it was a par 70.


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Post by pedro on Mon 30 Sep 2019, 11:12 pm

I wonder what’s the avg length of the course on the PGAT vs ET.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 7:55 am

GPB wrote:IME, all courses play more difficult in heavier winds and driving rain.

Well, that's the thing. It's not a common thing in September on the east coast of Scotland to have much wind or driving rain. This is when we traditionally get "better" weather. The rough has died back, the greens are not as firm as during The Open add to that how easy Kingsbarns and TOC are and you have a recipe for silly scores.

I really don't see the PGA being any better when it comes to scoring. They're both pretty similar.

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Post by JAS on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 8:26 am

Pretty much agree with most of what Robo says but I would also add pin positions as a scoring defence. On some courses more than others obviously there’s a LOT you can do in terms of Pin placement to either encourage or discourage scoring.

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Post by JAS on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 8:43 am

super_realist wrote:
GPB wrote:IME, all courses play more difficult in heavier winds and driving rain.

Well, that's the thing. It's not a common thing in September on the east coast of Scotland to have much wind or driving rain. This is when we traditionally get "better" weather. The rough has died back, the greens are not as firm as during The Open add to that how easy Kingsbarns and TOC are and you have a recipe for silly scores.

I really don't see the PGA being any better when it comes to scoring. They're both pretty similar.

Initially I thought on reading that whaaaat??? September in Scotland not famed for wind and rain (indignant Ayrshire upbringing kicking in) but actually there is a substantial difference between East coast where I now spend a week every Sept & the West coast where I was brought up in the autumn months. Thinking back on the last 10 years when I’ve been up there there’s been some horrendous wind and rain days but actually they’re not the norm. I would say about 30% pleasant and benign, 30% fair honest breeze making you think maybe 2-3 clubs different. 20% oooh this is tough that 4 iron didn’t go very far (or oooh...stop stop as same same 4 iron careers past its normal distance and toward a hazard) and 15% Poopie are people actually going to play in that and 5% take cover until this passes or you end up in Denmark or Norway!!

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Post by super_realist on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 10:39 am

I did stipulate East Coast for that very reason Jas.
Edinburgh, St Andrews etc are among the driest places in the UK.

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Post by Seve76 on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:25 pm

Shinnecock Hills may never host another US Open, the last two having come close to farce.
A perfect example of how links (or links-style) courses end up becoming unplayable if they've been set up "to protect par" and then the wind blows.
Carnoustie '99 was another good example; you can't set up a links course like a US Open venue, unless you know in advance that the weather will be benign during the tournament.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 1:34 pm

Seve76 wrote:Shinnecock Hills may never host another US Open, the last two having come close to farce.
A perfect example of how links (or links-style) courses end up becoming unplayable if they've been set up "to protect par" and then the wind blows.
Carnoustie '99 was another good example; you can't set up a links course like a US Open venue, unless you know in advance that the weather will be benign during the tournament.


Seve,
According to a recent Golf Digest article, Shinnecock may well become one of a Core Four venues for US Open, Pebble, Pinehurst, Oakmont and SH, possibly with the addition of Winged Foot. Each of those "Four" would see the US Open once every ten years with other courses visited occasionally.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 3:04 pm

super_realist wrote:I think it's pretty preposterous to claim that McIlroy is not good on challenging courses, but then Mac is the master of absurdity.

Is it that ridiculous to say Rory has preferred the softer target golf conditions over the years?

And at the Scottish open rorys socre wasn't low enough because his game management was terrible. In their wrong position on just about every par 5 I saw him play. So even a links in the most benign conditions caused him difficulties.
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Post by super_realist on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 3:23 pm

Yet, he has won plenty times on tough courses.

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Post by pedro on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 8:24 pm

Knowing he’s the best ball striker in the game, I think his point is that wayward drives/shots aren’t penalised sufficiently.

It may be true, but even more so on the PGATour / in the US.

Just see how the PGA set up RC courses vs how the ET set them up. It gives an indication of what kind of golf is preferred at either side on the pond. I bet Whistling Straits will be a bombers paradise, with little to no rough anywhere.

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Post by pedro on Tue 01 Oct 2019, 9:21 pm

And the ET has officially launched the new website together with a new ET logo and brand identity. No news as to whether Pelley’s got new glasses as well.

While it looks nice I’m simply not a fan of modern website design, with large fonts, countless sub-menus and never ending scrolling up and down and left and right.

Don’t think I’ll be a regular simply because of the lack of usability and overview. Sorry Keith.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 02 Oct 2019, 3:56 pm

https://www.europeantour.com/european-tour/news/articles/detail/the-2020-european-tour-schedule/


Open de France vs WGC Round 2.
Among other things.

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Post by I'm never wrong on Wed 02 Oct 2019, 5:02 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Among other things.
Lee Westwood NOT going for the Olympics Very Happy

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