England - the winter tours thread

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.


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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:35 pm

At 240/4 off 82 overs I was thinking I would probably be calling it West Indies' day but still had hopes of it being pretty level if we could take a couple more wickets before stumps. Little did I expect that we would bag 4!

Didn't see it but seems like a great effort  by Anderson in those closing overs and throughout the day (only able to watch the first session). Good work as well from Stokes. Other bowlers less impressive - I'll leave most comments to those who saw more but Curran was too short for his pace too often at the start.

Useful knocks from several of the batsmen but you normally need more than ''useful'' from at least one player to win a Test.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:40 pm

Had we picked a second opening bowler without doubt we would've cleaned up the Windies on day 1.

Curran was absolutely dreadful. Bayliss and Root need to remember bowlers are selected on wicket taking abilities and not the ability of flogging a few runs down the order

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Post by alfie on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:48 pm

Watched the early session and up in time to see the finish...not so sure as some that England are massively on top. Great late bowling has stopped the home team from getting a potentially large first innings score (Anderson got his reward eventually after bowling beautifully early on without success. He went a long time between Test wickets , I see : but once one came...). Stokes also impressive.
However the pitch might just quicken up - is it doing so already ? Roach might relish letting a few fly after copping a knock on his hand and a duck from a high edge to slip ! They have a battery of tall pace bowlers and England a few questions on their lineup. Will need to bat well , I think.
Overall though a good bowling effort to restrict West Indies to 264/8 considering five batsmen passed forty. Curran was certainly not effective enough to justify selection over Broad (or Woakes) but may yet pay off with the bat. The two spinner choice doesn't look too clever today but may help second time around...though I'm still skeptical.
Dreadful time zone for watching from here but as I'm off work for a few days hope to keep tabs on progress. Could be a good match.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:52 pm

Lets all calm down on the Curran comments - he’s had a bad day, he’s a youngster - it’s not all plain sailing in international cricket. Let’s not kick him to the curb and chastise him completely...(also his “ability of flogging a few runs down the order” has come in pretty damn handy in big spots against India and Sri Lanka - and shouldn’t be underrated)

Interesting to see how the Windies bowl tomorrow - Joseph was atrocious in England last tour, if he hasn’t tightened up England’s aggressive batsmen will take him to the cleaners you’d think
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 10:00 pm

Overwhelmingly England's day. James Anderson is so, so good. 36 years old and today was one of the best days in which I've seen him bowl. Yes, the conditions and the ball were suiting him, but his ability to exploit swinging conditions to the fullest possible advantage is unmatched.

24-12-33-4...and that under represents how good he was!

Tomorrow will be a different test. Bairstow has something to prove at 3. Jennings and Burns need runs. Root will be aching for a century. Stokes and Buttler must continue to justify their, relatively, high slots in the order.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 10:05 pm

Didn’t watch today, is hindsight a wonderful thing or am I right to feel England might learn about the real difference in quality between Broad and Curran in your bowling armoury? Surprised by Rashid and not Leach too.

Least there’s Jimmy

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 10:10 pm

Evening all.

An interesting day's play, certainly. For the most part it sort of pottled along, on what looked a pretty docile pitch, with England keeping things tight and picking up a wicket whenever WI looked like getting really on top. Then it all rather exploded into life with the second new ball. Certainly the pitch looked to have quickened a bit, and I reckon the second new ball swung more through the air than the first one did too.

WI will look at the fact that three batsmen got 50s and two more passed 40, but they could still only muster 264/8. There were some poor dismissals, Dowrich and Holder at the end were both rather soft (no blame to Roach, who got a snorter) and shifted the balance of play England's way.

England's two main men, Anderson and Stokes, bowled very well, and should also be commended on their fitness. The ability to keep going late in the day having already bowled a fair few overs was impressive. And also credit to the fielders (particularly Root) for keeping concentration at the end of a long hot day. Rashid I thought bowled pretty well without really looking like taking a wicket. Moeen and Curran were poor. Moeen was too full (seemed to struggle with the breeze IMO), while Curran never quite found his rhythm.

Don't really want to criticise the selectors too much (and indeed it's not their fault that the above two were off colour), but on the basis of today you do feel it's a pitch that would have suited Broad more than Curran (and possibly more of a 4+1 than 3+2 pitch). Still, they've done a very good job recently, and there's still a long way to go in this match, so...

If, as it appears, the pitch is quickening up, then WI's total could still prove to be competitive, and England will have to bat well. With no specialist spinner (Chase doesn't seem to bowl that much these days, though he's probably good for 15 overs or so if needed), this will be a good test of WI's seamers fitness too. Can Gabriel keep coming back strongly in his third or even fourth spells? That could be key. As an aside, having watched a bit of the Aus-Ind series I felt it was somewhere India's (otherwise excellent) seam attack could improve a bit. Often, guys like Shami or even Bumrah weren't quite as effective in their later spells, which IMO helps to explain why Aus's tail seemed to do so well (especially compared to their top order).

Final point (obligatory for me Very Happy). Over rate was good today, England barely behind 15 overs per hour all day until the last half-hour where wickets tumbled. They managed 30 overs in the first session despite play getting under way a few minutes late as WI handed out debutant caps (what's all that about? Why not do it between the toss and anthems, or even before the toss?). I expect tomorrow's over rate will be much slower: WI's seamers don't generally get through their overs particularly quickly.

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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 10:41 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
...
I expect tomorrow's over rate will be much slower: WI's seamers don't generally get through their overs particularly quickly.

Probably as well you weren't watching 30 or 40 years ago. Wink

No minimum number of overs in the day. Factor in as well - no limit on the number of bouncers in an over and no respite from a rotating ferocious 4 man pace attack.

I was reminded today of England's 5-0 hammering in the '86 series in the West Indies. No England player scored a century and West Indies lost just 5 second-innings wickets all series.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 11:23 pm

guildfordbat wrote:As for Rashid, I feel it's too much of a luxury picking a leggie to do his stuff in the second innings when the opposition are already 5 down (in line with Hoult's article and Rainford Brent today on Sky). I want my spinner - even a second spinner - being able to be called upon if necessary on day one and ask questions of the batsmen then. I feel Leach is the man for that and, whilst recognising that tough decisions shouldn't be ducked, that he's earned the opportunity.

Thinking about this comment, maybe Root was watching the 2009 series highlights on the plane over?

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 7:37 am

Sometime this evening we will all be saying thank god they picked Curran and Rashid when they both hit 50s and rescue Englands innings Wink

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:08 am

https://twitter.com/TheCricketGeek/status/1088188354569605121

He's pretty good this Anderson fella
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Post by sirfredperry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:33 am

There's a reason that Anderson has had such a phenomenal run over recent Tests (apart from the SL series). It is that team selection has meant that he has been kept reasonably fresh and not been asked to produce 20+ overs a day.
Yesterday, with Curran, Ali and Rashid all expensive, he had to bowl more. OK, he was incredibly economical, but it's asking a lot of him to carry on with this type of workload.
Hopefully for the Ashes we will see Broad and possibly Woakes back. Can't agree with those defending the Curran selection. I like Curran a lot, but I still say choosing him for this Test was barmy.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:50 am

My understanding was that Rashid had bowled pretty well, largely in a containment role, but that Hetmyr had come in and thrashed around a fair bit giving the spinner a couple of expensive overs. Ali I understand bowled a lot of filth and he is a conundrum I wonder if we will ever solve. I do wonder who will play if they select just one spinner.

There was some logic behind selecting Curran for this game (even if I may challenge it) and with him taking the new ball in both warm up games was always likely to happen. We are often too quick to make a judgment during a test so probably best to wait to the end of the game to decide whether Broad may have offered more with the ball.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 1:50 pm

LondonTiger wrote:There was some logic behind selecting Curran for this game (even if I may challenge it) and with him taking the new ball in both warm up games was always likely to happen. We are often too quick to make a judgment during a test so probably best to wait to the end of the game to decide whether Broad may have offered more with the ball.

Yeah I think everyones acknowledged its one day and his first genuinely bad one for England.
And yes England have made no secret that they are looking to develop opening bowlers other than Anderson and Broad, recognising that they need to plan for succession with both close to sell by date, although Anderson is defying his age and as the stats above show being as effective as at any time in his career under Root.
But Curran hasn't really shown anything to suggest he could be a legitimate opening bowler for England, and Broad did better with the new ball in those warm ups. It could be argued that Currans selection was with an eye to the future which has some merit, but I still feel England would be better placed looking at a genuine pace man than a guy whos bowling sub 80mph with a new ball and isn't called Philander. Theres no indication at all that Stone wouldve been in contention had he not got injured. Also there was quite an explicit comment from Root that his batting at 9 was highly valued, so whilst it may not have been the sole reason its is apparent that he was partly picked on batting....at 9...with rashid in at 10.
Its just one of those selections that looked shady at the time, and the way things have panned out its given us armchair experts a great opportunity to say I told you so. And when you look at the apparent reasoning for why he was selected it just doesnt add up.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 2:40 pm

Death, taxes and England failing to polish off the tail
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 2:57 pm

Anderson reaches his 27th five-for in test match cricket. That draws him level with Sir Ian Botham as the leading Englishman in that area, and ten more five wicket hauls will put him as the leading fast bowler in the world.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/wi/content/records/283354.html

A phenomenal career.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 2:58 pm

And Stokes wraps up the tail. Five Windies batsmen got to 40 or more, but none made centuries. That doesn't win test matches.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:04 pm

Duty281 wrote:And Stokes wraps up the tail. Five Windies batsmen got to 40 or more, but none made centuries. That doesn't win test matches.

Bearing in mind Englands last tour started with a second innings where the entire team scored 40 something a phrase about counting chickens springs to mind!

12 overs bowled by Curran suggest that Root doesnt agree with his own selections. The same thing happened in Sri Lanka where he barely saw the ball but was still consistently picked. Broken record but it does now mean Anderson has bowled far more overs than is ideal.


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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:04 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Death, taxes and England failing to polish off the tail

But also - almost an inevitability that when one comes, two follows.

Good catch by Foakes to finish off the innings. From what I've seen live and on the highlights, he's kept very well - nothing dramatic but consistently sound.

Very decent effort by Hetmyer with a valuable duck from Joseph in support to get West Indies up to 289. More than most of us thought they would score before the start but I still doubt it'll be enough. You can't properly make a call at this stage but not many Tests are won these days with a sub 300 first innings total.

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:07 pm

Useful 25 added by Hetmeyer this morning while Joseph hung around...
Five for Jimmy and four for Stokes . Outstanding effort from Anderson in particular : thirty overs for his 5/46. He will certainly hope the batsmen now afford him a good rest before the second innings.

Obviously England will want a decent lead anyway having to bat last on what might become a difficult pitch. But the home side has some handy pace men so that will require some sound batting ; from a lineup that is still trying to establish itself at this stage.

Roach to start ...here we go...

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Post by VTR on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:10 pm

Not bad from England, despite the runs today it was 240-4 at one point, which made 400 possible, and I would say that's about the Windies ceiling in terms of an innings. England need a decent start and hopefully get to 400 themselves

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:15 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Duty281 wrote:And Stokes wraps up the tail. Five Windies batsmen got to 40 or more, but none made centuries. That doesn't win test matches.

Bearing in mind Englands last tour started with a second innings where the entire team scored 40 something a phrase about counting chickens springs to mind!

Haha, fair point.

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:17 pm

A (last ? ) word - for now - on the Curran selection :

I am fairly sure both he and Broad would have played here had they not elected to include the second spinner. Once they decided (perhaps wrongly ? We will see over the next few days) that this was closer to Sri Lankan than pace-friendly conditions , the role of second seamer became less important . I don't think they are wrong to value Curran's all round value. If Rashid does a job with the ball second time around they'll arguably be vindicated.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:24 pm

6 bowlers used by England, yet Anderson and Stokes still bowled 55% of the overs. 


Amusing, to me, anomoly pointed out on Cricinfo - the opening batters for England have a lower average than the opening bowlers for WI.

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:48 pm

alfie wrote:A (last ? ) word - for now - on the Curran selection :

I am fairly sure both he and Broad would have played here had they not elected to include the second spinner. Once they decided (perhaps wrongly ? We will see over the next few days) that this was closer to Sri Lankan than pace-friendly conditions , the role of second seamer became less important . I don't think they are wrong to value Curran's all round value. If Rashid does a job with the ball second time around they'll arguably be vindicated.

Hi Alfie - my man Stewart was singing Anderson's praises on Sky last night. Not just his four wickets (at that time) but also his economy. Stewart once more emphasised the virtue and benefit to the team of keeping it ''dry''. He flagged that 12 of Anderson's overs, equating to 50%, had been maidens. Stewart added that 25% would normally be the bowler's aim.

As you might expect, Stewart was sympathetic towards Curran whilst referring to his performance as ''indifferent''. Stewart stressed he couldn't properly assess the line up England chose as he hadn't seen the pitch close up but his feeling was that England only needed one front line spinner. Accordingly, he would have played both Curran and Broad with Rashid on the bench

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:50 pm

alfie wrote:A (last ? ) word - for now - on the Curran selection :

I am fairly sure both he and Broad would have played here had they not elected to include the second spinner. Once they decided (perhaps wrongly ? We will see over the next few days) that this was closer to Sri Lankan than pace-friendly conditions , the role of second seamer became less important . I don't think they are wrong to value Curran's all round value. If Rashid does a job with the ball second time around they'll arguably be vindicated.

Yeah, but my view is that it was Broad for Curran, not Broad for Rashid. Rashid would be vying for Leech for a place. From the all rounders perspective most of us anticipated one other to have their batting considered if at all, we are talking 9 an 10 here not 8 and 9, not both.
Curran only getting 12 overs despite having both new balls shows how little he was valued, theres no way England wouldve picked both him and Broad unless they had read the pitch very differently.
There is of course the possibility that had Broad bowled and done a little better than Curran then he wouldve got more overs at the expense of Anderson and Stokes, meaning it wouldve taken longer for them to do the damage. But thats a fairly limp convoluted one.

Its genuinely difficult to justify this selection both in the initial thinking and whats transpired so far.

Last word till he scores a match turning century Whistle

Meanwhile Im reading Broad was left to sulk in the hotel yesterday, which is also threatening to sue the BBC over reports Broad was chomped by bed bugs and England players slept on the hallway floors. Yikes.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:6 bowlers used by England, yet Anderson and Stokes still bowled 55% of the overs. 


Amusing, to me, anomoly pointed out on Cricinfo - the opening batters for England have a lower average than the opening bowlers for WI.

Some other good ones...last year was the worst year that 15 tests havve been played for openers averages globally.
Jennings has the worst ever average for a test opener with 15 innings against pace ( and its just got worse)

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:58 pm

Not surprised Jennings has gone. He didn't look comfortable, didn't look like he knew where his off stump was for the duration. A mostly accurate start by the Windies seamers.

Bairstow at 3 then...

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Post by msp83 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 3:59 pm

Jason Holder has become a much improved bowler over the last year. The skipper gets the breakthrough close to lunch, to give his side parity going into the break. Not the best of shots from Jennings...

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 4:06 pm

If Jennings struggles in the next innings then England may be forced to try Denly for test 2. The talk has been all about settling on a top 3, but none are secure in their places. Jennings recent century cant mask that hes useless against the pace he will be facing from Australia on English wickets, and his failures too numerous.
Im no Denly fan, but if they dont make the change in this series then the worst case may be required and they need to debut someone in the ashes. Hes the only other horse they have to back.
Best case of course would be this top three to actually get their act together and all make decent scores in this test and take that confidence forward.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 4:13 pm

Jennings averaging under 18 in the 11 tests he's played outside Asia (HS: 48).

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 4:53 pm

Oh, England's endless opening travails. 40/2. This is a key Yorkshire partnership.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:01 pm

Roach finding some extra bounce. 44/3. England in trouble.

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Post by VTR on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:02 pm

Probably going to need Curran and Rashid's batting at this rate......

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Post by msp83 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:04 pm

England in not so stranger land at 44-3. Improvement from 20-3, but not by much!

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Post by msp83 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:08 pm

West Indies bowling well here.. England's major hope is that Root's still there, and they have the batting depth unmatched...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:08 pm

West Indies are into the batsmen now
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:16 pm

44/4. God I love English cricket.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:28 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:West Indies are into the batsmen now

This aged badly
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:29 pm

Never judge a pitch until England have collapsed on it
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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:30 pm

Too hot to sleep here so back I come to watch...and behold an ongoing disaster !
Stokes and Moeen putting Roach on a hat trick...and the follow on looms...

I know the batting has depth but I fear they're gone this time.  Chalk up West Indies 1-0 and England's Caribbean banana skin striking again.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:31 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Never judge a pitch until England have collapsed on it

Never worry about pitch conditions because England will collapse on it!

He's bowling well, but England are making Roach seem McGrath-esque. Memories of 2009 with this collapse.

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:33 pm

Didn't see how Burns Bairstow and Root got out ...pitch playing a part or just the usual bad shot selection ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:37 pm

They’ll be getting the heavy rollers out for the next two grounds - now they have a 1-0 lead to protect...
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:37 pm

Feck me, another lifter and Buttler can't deal with it. 49/7. Roach has 5/13. It's utter carnage.

England have really struggled with the short ball. Maybe a FC game before the tests would have helped?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:38 pm

Will the Windies enforce the follow on?
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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:39 pm

This is like watching tours of the Caribbean from my youth...the Windies main man Roach with fire and brimstone. Unfortunately too hot to handle thus far.

And again showing cricket is a game of specialists not self proclaimed 'all rounders'

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Post by VTR on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:42 pm

This is an absolute travesty of a performance. Risking undoing all the good work that was done against India and Sri Lanka

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:45 pm

England get past 51. It's all gravy from here.

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:47 pm

Think we can all agree this is not a pitch for two spinners...

Locals obviously judged it better. Like guildford's man Stewart , I was too far away to judge the pitch in advance. But my instincts said you don't worry too much about spin options in Barbados. England have a bit of form for getting these things wrong.

Not that bad selection is the only issue here. Roach and Holder have clearly bowled some good stuff...and the batting remains as iffy as we feared. Inadequate warm up hasn't helped.

The Internet will be full of calls to bring back KP Smile

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