England - the winter tours thread

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.


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Post by king_carlos on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:52 pm

World crickets media: Kemar Roach is no longer a true pace bowler following injuries

England's top order: Hold my beer

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:56 pm

Good Lord, England are going to need to follow-on after bowling a team out for under 300. A new low.

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Post by Galted on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:58 pm

VTR wrote:Probably going to need Curran and Rashid's batting at this rate......

And they’re in.
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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:59 pm

Maybe I haven't really woken up and this is just a nightmare ?


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Post by msp83 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 5:59 pm

So Rashid and Curran out there in the middle. Time to justify the selection calls!!
Curran really has a record of doing it in such hopeless situations, he needs to produce yet another special performance with the bat to salvage something for England here.

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:00 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Death, taxes and England failing to polish off the tail

But also - almost an inevitability that when one comes, two follows.

Good catch by Foakes to finish off the innings. From what I've seen live and on the highlights, he's kept very well - nothing dramatic but consistently sound.

Very decent effort by Hetmyer with a valuable duck from Joseph in support to get West Indies up to 289. More than most of us thought they would score before the start but I still doubt it'll be enough. You can't properly make a call at this stage but not many Tests are won these days with a sub 300 first innings total.

There again, not too many Tests have ever been won from a first innings score of 61/8. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:01 pm

Hopefully this is the lowest point of the “most important year in English cricket” ...
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:08 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Hopefully this is the lowest point of the “most important year in English cricket” ...

After a year of pessimism, I finally give England the big build-up, only for them to do this. Makes a person want to cry. Sad

Jennings has actually top-scored (so far).

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Post by VTR on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:11 pm

Well we did win The Ashes in the same year as the 51 all out. Take the positives!

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:12 pm

Duty281 wrote:Good Lord, England are going to need to follow-on after bowling a team out for under 300. A new low.

Probably better they do. Lose by an innings but at least Anderson isn't dragged back out to bowl again three hours after his thirtieth over...
Probably going to need his bowling next week.

Suppose one can look at this as just one of those days when everything goes south at once. But it does underline the fact that the batting is essentially pretty ordinary by Test standards. The openers are barely good enough , Bairstow is not really a three , Stokes and Buttler both look more like sevens than fives...not that there is much can be done about it in the short term as the replacements are not obvious.

Australia will fancy their chances in six months.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:24 pm

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Good Lord, England are going to need to follow-on after bowling a team out for under 300. A new low.

Probably better they do.  Lose by an innings but at least Anderson isn't dragged back out to bowl again three hours after his thirtieth over...
Probably going to need his bowling next week.

Suppose one can look at this as just one of those days when everything goes south at once.  But it does underline the fact that the batting is essentially pretty ordinary by Test standards.  The openers are barely good enough , Bairstow is not really a three , Stokes and Buttler both look more like sevens than fives...not that there is much can be done about it in the short term as the replacements are not obvious.

Australia will fancy their chances in six months.

Yep, it's a very average batting line-up, with only one high-quality batsman (Root) and zero players of a defensive mindset, which can be crucial in tough periods. The balance has looked wrong for a good while now, with too many all-rounders and keeper batsmen in the XI.

Nine down. Looks like Jennings will finish top-scorer and the Windies will get to choose whether to go again or not.

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:27 pm

Since Jennings is apparently going to top score I suppose he's inked in for the Ashes now Smile

All out for 77.

Surely they'll be sent back in ? I'm going back to bed anyway ...can't watch this either way.
thumbsdown

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:27 pm

alfie wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Good Lord, England are going to need to follow-on after bowling a team out for under 300. A new low.

Probably better they do.  Lose by an innings but at least Anderson isn't dragged back out to bowl again three hours after his thirtieth over...
Probably going to need his bowling next week.

Suppose one can look at this as just one of those days when everything goes south at once.  But it does underline the fact that the batting is essentially pretty ordinary by Test standards.  The openers are barely good enough , Bairstow is not really a three , Stokes and Buttler both look more like sevens than fives...not that there is much can be done about it in the short term as the replacements are not obvious.

Australia will fancy their chances in six months.

Will either england or Australia make it too 400 next summer? Reckon there’s a decent chance neither do!
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Post by James100 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:28 pm

A non-zero chance that neither make it to 300!

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:29 pm

I think the Windies should bat on. Wear the pitch down and wear the English down in the field. I don't think England will bat that poorly again, and you don't want to be facing a tricky 150-200 run chase in the fourth innings.

West Indies bowled well in that innings. But the manner of so many of the dismissals was pathetic - like they'd never seen a bouncer before.

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Post by VTR on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:31 pm

Yeah Windies will bat again. Pretty clear now that Broad and Woakes have to be drafted in for the next Test. Might not have made a difference anyway but England's selection for this Test has truly gone wrong

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Post by sirfredperry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:31 pm

My favourite football team have lost their two best players to injury. My favourite tennis player has been knocked out of the Australian Open. It's cold, dark and wet. And now England are all out for 77. Dry January? Dry January be buggered....

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Post by msp83 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:34 pm

So 77 all out it is! Roach was brilliant, and Holder supported him very well. Joseph and Gabriel played their parts and England just got blown away.
But a pathetic batting effort from England. Despite the West Indies bowling well, it never was a 77 all out pitch, that too with a lineup that bats to 10.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:36 pm

VTR wrote:Yeah Windies will bat again. Pretty clear now that Broad and Woakes have to be drafted in for the next Test. Might not have made a difference anyway but England's selection for this Test has truly gone wrong

Can shuffle the bowlers all you like, doesn’t matter when you’re all out for 77 ultimately

But seems they horribly misjudged this pitch in their selection. Clearly thought it was a slow low one, not a quick bouncy one...
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:38 pm

West Indies will bat again. It's Anderson I feel most sympathy for. Blinding spell yesterday, he deserves to put his feet up for more than a solitary session.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:40 pm

Think West Indies should bat on. Try and take their time, slowly build the lead. If they manage to bat 3 sessions, they should be in a strong position, and Anderson and Stokes will have some miles in their legs.
The key for West Indies is to bat patiently. England surely won't bat this poorly 2nd time around, so West Indies should remember there is plenty of time left in the match, and just bat, bat and bat.

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Post by Eejit on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:44 pm

sirfredperry wrote:My favourite football team have lost their two best players to injury. My favourite tennis player has been knocked out of the Australian Open. It's cold, dark and wet. And now England are all out for 77. Dry January? Dry January be buggered....

In fairness it might be me that brought the bad luck. Chose the cricket over the bowls for the background today. Might go back to BBC2 tomorrow...

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Post by JDizzle on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:49 pm

Fully agree with the sentiment that the Windies are correct to bat again. The only (very!) slim chance England would have is setting a tricky 150ish fourth innings chase, whereas another 100 runs for the Windies seals it.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 6:52 pm

This might be a very long, tough, day and a half for England’s bowlers...
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Post by VTR on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 7:16 pm

Anderson would be within his rights to refuse to bowl at all. When England hit these lows they usually bounce back, so I am actually backing them to win the next Test

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 7:28 pm

Oh Jesus....step away for a couple of hours....

Well I guess you could argue that the selections of Rashid and Curran paid off with them bring second and third highest scorers .....
It's hard to worry about the bowler selections when the wicket keepers so spectacularly failed to score runs.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 7:29 pm

I wonder if the groundsmen in Antigua and St Lucia will be able to produce fast bouncy tracks. As it's been clear for a while Captain Holder really doesn't fancy any full time spinner be it Bishoo or Warrican.

It's not rocket science that we don't fancy the fast bowling barrage

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 7:34 pm

msp83 wrote:Think West Indies should bat on. Try and take their time, slowly build the lead. If they manage to bat 3 sessions, they should be in a strong position, and Anderson and Stokes will have some miles in their legs.
The key for West Indies is to bat patiently. England surely won't bat this poorly 2nd time around, so West Indies should remember there is plenty of time left in the match, and just bat, bat and bat.

I wouldn't die in a ditch fighting for it but my inclination, had I been Holder, would have been to put England in again. I just feel that England would have been so shell shocked and with both Burns and Jennings struggling that both openers could well have been back in the hutch within fifteen minutes. Largely a gut feel and also subject to all the pace quartet feeling strong. I appreciate the alternate views and why I'm in a minority.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 7:40 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:I wonder if the groundsmen in Antigua and St Lucia will be able to produce fast bouncy tracks. As it's been clear for a while Captain Holder really doesn't fancy any full time spinner be it Bishoo or Warrican.

It's not rocket science that we don't fancy the fast bowling barrage

Would prefer that to the farce of 2009 when we saw West Indies flatten the wickets and England score 500+ in 3 consecutive tests but not be able to take the wickets. We'll need pitches with a bit of something in them if we're going to get back into it, we just need to read it better and play it better.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 7:44 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
msp83 wrote:Think West Indies should bat on. Try and take their time, slowly build the lead. If they manage to bat 3 sessions, they should be in a strong position, and Anderson and Stokes will have some miles in their legs.
The key for West Indies is to bat patiently. England surely won't bat this poorly 2nd time around, so West Indies should remember there is plenty of time left in the match, and just bat, bat and bat.

I wouldn't die in a ditch fighting for it but my inclination, had I been Holder, would have been to put England in again. I just feel that England would have been so shell shocked and with both Burns and Jennings struggling that both openers could well have been back in the hutch within fifteen minutes. Largely a gut feel and also subject to all the pace quartet feeling strong. I appreciate the alternate views and why I'm in a minority.

I have to say I would have batted again. Yes, England may have been shell shocked and they could have rolled them again, but they could have also rallied. It's still Day 2, and they'd know a 400 score with 2 spinners would give them a chance.

England, or specifically Anderson and Stokes, won't be thrilled about bowling again. The West Indies would be happy to face any of the other 3 on this surface. They could bat for 2 days and still get 4 sessions at England. The only chance England would have had would be to roll West Indies for under 100, but having seen what the England bowlers were offering on this pitch Holder backed his team to get over that.

Now Burns and Jennings will come in with 2 days left to play and looking at a world record run chase, with the media and armchair critics at home ready to lay into them if they don't perform. It will bring its own pressure.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:08 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:I wonder if the groundsmen in Antigua and St Lucia will be able to produce fast bouncy tracks. As it's been clear for a while Captain Holder really doesn't fancy any full time spinner be it Bishoo or Warrican.

It's not rocket science that we don't fancy the fast bowling barrage

Would prefer that to the farce of 2009 when we saw West Indies flatten the wickets and England score 500+ in 3 consecutive tests but not be able to take the wickets. We'll need pitches with a bit of something in them if we're going to get back into it, we just need to read it better and play it better.
I think Captain Holder would be against flat roads tbh. His bowling attack is potent and there's no point bowling them into the ground on featherbeds.

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:17 pm

Ali doing a job with the ball and England are hanging in. 61/3.

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:20 pm

Like guildford , I'd have sent them back in. Reckon the match might have been nearly over by now if he had.
No way could England make 400 on this.

After the farcical dismissal of Campbell , Bravo is gone too so it's 61/3. Make that 61/4 Smile Moeen the destoyer ! Still you'd imagine West Indies will scrape up another hundred so they'll be chasing something close to that anyway...

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:20 pm

Oo'er, it's actually on. The great comeback. Simple straight ball from Ali and a sharp catch. 61/4.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:22 pm

Sooo...as we were all just saying theres plenty in this pitch for spinners and Moeen isa fine bowler Shocked

You cant fault this test for drama...but the west indies will still be very hard pressed not to win comfortably.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:23 pm

https://twitter.com/georgedobell1/status/1088532190974091270?s=21
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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:24 pm

Robbo - I don't deny what you say. There's a lot of logic and sense there. I just have an old fashioned desire to go for the throat when on top and believe it would have paid off here.

I don't claim my decision would have been right. Merely what I would have done. Sometimes you have to back yourself. ''It's a game of opinions, sir'' - Alec Stewart on several occasions to me and various others. Smile

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:25 pm

Weird review ? Stokes hearing things ? Surely Foakes would have known that didn't touch the glove ?

Never mind... Hope is gone now (not a figure of speech Smile : 61/5

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:26 pm

England out of reviews now.

Oh, never mind, Jennings takes an excellent catch to dismiss the main batsman. It's a crazy day of test cricket. 61/5.

Gentle reminder that the Windies lost their last five wickets in the previous innings for a mere 49 runs.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:27 pm

If england can nip these last five out for around 50 more, they may have the slightest of outside chances yet...a 1/50 type shot, but better than chasing 400-500...
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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:34 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Robbo - I don't deny what you say. There's a lot of logic and sense there. I just have an old fashioned desire to go for the throat when on top and believe it would have paid off here.

I don't claim my decision would have been right. Merely what I would have done. Sometimes you have to back yourself. ''It's a game of opinions, sir'' - Alec Stewart on several occasions to me and various others. Smile

The way this is going I think we old fashioned types have some evidence The Old Way might have been better this time...

Not that it will change the eventual result. Pitch is unlikely to settle down (it isn't a minefield but certainly is producing some tricky bounce at times) and even a chase for 300 - which it could actually be if they can shift one of these two quickly ! - will be out of reach.

Extraordinary day's play . Two dodgy batting lineups ; one indifferent surface ; some good bowling and catching...hours of fun for all the family. Who needs five days for a Test Match ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:38 pm

I’m very ok with watching Shimron Hetmyer bat. Very ok indeed
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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:47 pm

Hetmeyer and Dowrich doing the right thing. Throwing the bat...already added 27. Lead to 300. Better than poking about going nowhere.
They don't need many more runs really. (Probably don't need any.) but this aggressive reaction to losing a bunch of wickets is likely to rattle England just when they were feeling a bit chirpy...
Stokes must be getting a bit weary : who bowls next ?

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:50 pm

Going to leave you guys to try and steer the boat to somewhere away from the rocks - off for Thursday drinks with the boys (ok, old gits) at the pub. No idea what final score will greet me on my return!

Btw, although it didn't come off, I thought Root was right to open the bowling second dig with Curran. Good to show some confidence in the youngster and back him.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 8:59 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:If england can nip these last five out for around 50 more, they may have the slightest of outside chances yet...a 1/50 type shot, but better than chasing 400-500...

If we want to hold onto hope, Tino Best has said that the traditional Barbados pitch starts slow but gets quicker as Day 1 goes on and Day 2 as it bakes in the sun. It settles down a bit on Day 3, and then gets more up-and-down and takes more turn in Days 4 and 5.

So blast out these last 5 wickets and then take the better batting conditions to wrap the game up by lunch time on Day 4. It may be unlikely, but it's the only hope we have!

Time to bring on Rashid? He's in the team to get at the tail in the second innings. Didn't think it would be on Day 2, but time for him to step up!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:05 pm

Hetmyer and Dowrich seem to have weathered the mini storm...
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:07 pm

Stokes bowling an 11 over spell. Great captaincy, exhaust him before the second test.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:Stokes bowling an 11 over spell. Great captaincy, exhaust him before the second test.

He'll get an extra 2 days off after this one though.

His current match figures inside two days are 6/90 in 36.3 overs. It's some effort for someone who bowls with as much hostility as he does.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:15 pm

Duty281 wrote:Stokes bowling an 11 over spell. Great captaincy, exhaust him before the second test.

Eh I’m not so worried about that - Stokes is one of the fitter athletes going, works out maniacally and is on record saying he prefers the longer spells to the shorter ones cos he can get into rhythm.
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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:21 pm

I suppose, after today, there are greater things to worry about!

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