England - the winter tours thread

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.


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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:25 pm

Ben Stokes' Test career seems to be swapping over ala Andrew Flintoff. Stokes started off as a batting all rounder, but his batting has really tappered off in the last 12 months. On the both hand his bowling is getting better and better.

If we are going to insist on playing Curran maybe he should be considered a batsman and bat further up the order.

In the long run 3 keepers won't work. Bairstow may well get them back and slot in at 5, as Buttler should be no higher than 6.Stokes as a bowling all rounder at 7.

Root really needs to bat 3

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:37 pm

Sam Curran nips out Hetmeyer ...but the lead has been pushed over 330.
England won't get near that. But it would be nice to get these last four wickets quickly to at least keep the illusion of a chance alive for the crowd...

Have to admire the spirit of Ben Stokes. His energy - with some useful stuff from Moeen - transformed that session. May be too late to matter but still thumbsup

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:42 pm

How much do they write this one off?

Rashid hasn’t worked

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:54 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:How much do they write this one off?

Rashid hasn’t worked

Depends a bit on the second innings. They have to believe this was an aberration ; and in any case they don't have options for massive change on this tour. (I think it shows some of the confidence that flowed from the success in Sri Lanka was misplaced : there are problems that won't be solved until they can unearth a couple of genuine top three bats )
Firstly they will need to pick the right XI for the remaining Tests here to try and salvage the series. I agree Rashid is probably a luxury they can't afford. Hopefully they'll judge the pitch a bit better next time ?

Then it might be back to the drawing board for the home Tests ...with the little distraction of a white ball World Cup in between...

I wish I had more faith in Ed Smith.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 9:59 pm

Did see an article basically saying England’s biggest threat here was the lack of scrutiny due to an away win that may have been bigged up for more than it was. A level of confidence/arrogance could stop them making the changes and showing the ruthlessness they need

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 10:28 pm

Lads - lets really not try to overreact too much. They’ve misread the pitch, picked the wrong team, and then this was compounded by losing the toss - and then the WIndies have bowled very well at them. If you consider too they’ve had essentially Xmas off, coming from slow low turners to a pacey pitch with two knockabout two day games as prep, it’s not hugely surprising to see they’ve come in undercooked.

We know they’re a very good side at home, and a work in progress abroad with a lack of balance in the side due to a lack of specialists in certain positions. Unless suddenly the next cabs off the rank at opener/3 are Strauss/Cook/Trott v2, they’re always going to struggle to be anything bar 40/3 and the middle to lower order whilst a strength, isn’t going to perform every single time, because that’s just sport.

I’d expect them to take it on the chin, hopefully read the pitch correctly next game and correct the mistakes of this game with a much better performance next time out.

There’s something about going to the WIndies that seems to spook them too...a bogey tour if such a thing exists
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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 10:54 pm

Not sure I'd call it arrogance ; but Bayliss seems definitely on the stubborn side. Or , one might more kindly say , he believes in giving players a fair run of chances.

Is "ruthlessness" what is needed ?  I mean , you can be as ruthless as you like but it won't help unless you can find replacements for those you cull. And replacements who are actually better...

I do think the Sri Lanka win might have produced a bit more faith in the spin brigade than is warranted.  That and this weird notion that Moeen only bowls well if he's not the sole spin bowler. Not to seem too down on Rashid - but really , in Tests he is more "the man who breaks partnerships " than a bowler who can be relied upon to play a full role over five days. As I said above , a luxury item...and one they cannot really fit in the side along with three wicket keepers.
But even if Broad , say , had helped bowl West Indies out for a good deal less than 289 (which I did feel , even on day one , might prove more useful than was being widely assumed) it would have done nothing for the batting.
It is the batting that is the problem. With no obvious solution in sight. When the strokeplayers come off they can look like worldbeaters. when they don't...it's 58.  Or 77...They really need a New Trott more than anything...any ideas ?

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Post by Duty281 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 10:55 pm

It's not all over yet. If England are chasing under 375, they have as much as a 20% chance. It's not a bad pitch. Maybe a bit of variable bounce and some turn, but nothing so drastic. The West Indies won't bowl as well as they did in the first innings, and England won't bat as terribly. Still a chance.

Can England bat four sessions on a day three/day four pitch? Of course they can. And if they do they win.

So maybe, just maybe, England's misfit band of dodgy openers, ginger people, part-time wicketkeepers, filthy sloggers, Burnley's answer to Brian Lara, and Joseph Root can complete the great escape.

It'll be a big innings for Root. He's one of the best in the world, and he needs to prove it with a massive century in a time of great peril.

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Post by robbo277 on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 11:02 pm

The thing that gets me is (more on the BBC commentary) people calling for all the batsmen to be dropped. Bowlers is a different story, we have depth with Broad, Woakes and Leach carrying drinks. But there is no-one to come in to change that batting line-up.

For better or for worse, we have to stick for this series. Give all these guys 5 more innings and then judge them. See how they adapt to their roles, see who shows promise.

Even after this series, there's not loads of names out there ready to come in. Ollie Pope is obviously one that's been about the squad but he's not the top order anchor we're looking for. I genuinely believe it might be worth persisting with these 3 for now. They have weaknesses, but if there's no-one better may as well let them stay in and work on them. Burns and Jennings don't play white ball for England, so they should get a decent amount of FC cricket this summer as well.

The other option is to go completely unorthodox and try a pinch hitter like Roy or a "luxury player" like Rashid. If we're not going to get many 100 opening stands either way, may as well get someone who can tee off and put the bowlers on the back foot, or someone who can average 25 like Jennings does, but also bowl some handy leg spin.

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Post by alfie on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 11:13 pm

Not sure I'm quite as optimistic as you , Olly. I'd say a work in progress home and away. They generally win at home because Anderson and Broad - with good support from other bowlers who also prefer home conditions - tend to limit visiting teams' runs. The batting is still questionable.
Whether they can turn this series around...hmm. We will see. Agree lack of preparation is significant ...but I guess they must have agreed to the schedule...

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Thu 24 Jan 2019, 11:44 pm

Wasn’t my article!

I agree with all the sentiments. It’s the top three, more than anything, that are the issue. Bairstow deserves more time, although I kinda don’t see it working. Both Jennings and Burns could seem more suited to being an England three.

The idea of a wildcard, a pitch hitter, it appeals to me but it is short term.

I suppose it’s hard to look beyond The Ashes as any sort of target and you’d have to debate now whether it’s worth keeping these two for more time opening the order in hope they’ll be better in English conditions against the Aussies.

Broad for Rashid hopefully next test.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 7:53 am

Lets not forget that England havent been able to cope with genuine pace for a number of years now, and havent faced any since last winter, and even then the Aus pitches werent especially lively. They came off the back of test series on slow low turners and prior to that a home series on green seaming pitches. The preparation for this test was two days batting on a different type of surface largely against bowlers significantly slower than Roach.
Every England tour to the west indies for as long as most of us can remember has seen at least one disastrous innings, and we all talked up an expectation that this could well happen at some point.
The worrying thing as per the last tour is that its happened first up, and we can pretty much assume that the west indies must win form this position, and if they do get dead pitches for the following tests we could see bore draws again.
When it comes to replacements as already discussed at this time its Pope for the middle order who was widely regarded as not ready and struggling with the Lions, or Denly to take a top 3 spot. The idea of pinch hitters up top seems a desperate, and the arguments been that thats what they already have right through the order.

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 8:21 am

I don't see any draws with these two batting line ups, even if they roll out the flattest pitches in the world. Both of these sides like to score rather than defend, so I reckon over 5 days there'll always be 40 wickets

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Post by alfie on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 9:50 am

VTR wrote:I don't see any draws with these two batting line ups, even if they roll out the flattest pitches in the world. Both of these sides like to score rather than defend, so I reckon over 5 days there'll always be 40 wickets

Fancy you might be right there ! As long as they don't get rained out you'd think results are likely. The toss and bowler selection might be key...as I suppose has been the case to some extent here...

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 11:08 am

!"£$%^&*@"£$%^&*@£$%^&*@#




Sorry my thoughts on yesterdays debacle are not printable.

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 12:19 pm

All that talk of dropping Jennings when he got out. We'd be mad to drop our top scorer! Less than two hours until the misery resumes....

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 12:39 pm

Highest ever fourth innings total at this ground - 387, in a losing effort by the Windies in 2008. Highest successful chase was 311, in 1999.

England did successfully chase down a score the previous time they batted last on this ground...mind you, they only needed 93!

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;ground=199;innings_number=4;orderby=team_score;template=results;type=team;view=innings

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 1:59 pm

We'll be lucky to get to that 93 let alone any of the records

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Post by alfie on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 2:28 pm

So far this morning no joy for the bowlers ...that lead now over 350 and hopes of a quick clean up of the West Indies tail fading away...
Holder can bat ; and Dowritch seems pretty comfortable at the moment .
Reckon England might find themselves chasing over 400. Anderson and Stokes risk being worked into the ground while they're at it.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 2:31 pm

Good and sensible batting from Dowrich and Holder in the opening half hour. Not going hell for leather against Anderson or Stokes but keeping the scoreboard ticking over and giving England little encouragement.

149/6, a lead of almost zillions.

Sound if unsurprising words of wisdom earlier today from my man Stewart: ''You get rolled for 77. You don't win too many games from there.''  Smile

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 2:55 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Good and sensible batting from Dowrich and Holder in the opening half hour. Not going hell for leather against Anderson or Stokes but keeping the scoreboard ticking over and giving England little encouragement.

149/6, a lead of almost zillions.

Sound if unsurprising words of wisdom earlier today from my man Stewart: ''You get rolled for 77. You don't win too many games from there.''  Smile

It was an important passage of play for both teams. England where going to come at them with their best, albeit tired, bowlers and the West Indies batsmen just had to keep them out. They've weathered the storm, added some runs, moved the lead from "very probable win" to "almost certain win" and should soon have the change bowlers on if they want to free their arms. They'll pass 400 soon and probably the mythical 418.

The runs are almost inconsequential for England, or very soon will be. They need to get out there now because by all accounts it's the best day for batting.

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Post by alfie on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 2:59 pm

Watching these fellows bat quite comfortably this morning , it seems bizarre that in one period yesterday seventeen wickets went down for about 140 .
One difference of course in this innings is that England's main bowlers were obviously affected by their workloads from the first innings , and so were unable to finish off their opponents from that precarious 61/5. Remains a big disappointment that England mounted so little resistance after the first four were out : much has been said about the effectiveness of the later order in bailing the team out (and indeed they've done so on a number of occasions) ; but here , as in NZ last year , they were swept away rather too easily. Strikes me that there's a big difference on this pitch playing a fairly new ball from dealing with an older one...pity they didn't give the one West Indies used a chance to age much at all Smile
Moeen going for 13 in his first over : they'll be "chasing" nearer 500 than 400 at this rate ...

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:01 pm

I don't think this morning mattered, England already had no chance even if the last 4 wickets fell for no further runs. What matters now is the batting shows some application. Farcical that batting practice is the second innings of the actual first test

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:12 pm

I have a lot of sympathy with the bowlers here, they should still have their feet up now. They haven't had a rest, the pitch hasn't deteriorated enough and they have no scoreboard pressure to work with, so it's no surprise we couldn't keep them down after getting them 61-5.

West Indies were 350-15. The issue we had was we were 270 runs behind at that stage with no-one to throw the ball to. That's on the batsmen.

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Post by alfie on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:21 pm

The absurdity of the original selection is really being exposed here : more than a (wicketless) hour into the day and the leg spinner hasn't added to his two overs... Root really doesn't have any faith in Rashid ; and it shows.
Mustn't neglect to praise these two batsmen : they've played really well today. Good fifty for Holder and his partner should reach his shortly ...as they relentlessly bat England (even further) out of this match...
Can't agree with VTR that this morning didn't matter : chasing , say , 380 would have presented a theoretical chance.. If they're 500 plus adrift there isn't really a target at all...and that changes the way they bat. I'd go so far as to suggest scores compiled in that kind of totally hopeless situation probably mean less than runs made in an actual attempt to reach a target - even a fruitless one.

Aha ...here is Rashid.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:21 pm

robbo277 wrote:I have a lot of sympathy with the bowlers here, they should still have their feet up now. They haven't had a rest, the pitch hasn't deteriorated enough and they have no scoreboard pressure to work with, so it's no surprise we couldn't keep them down after getting them 61-5.

West Indies were 350-15. The issue we had was we were 270 runs behind at that stage with no-one to throw the ball to. That's on the batsmen.

Yeah the bowlers have been dealt a rather rubbish hand this test - Rashid picked on a pitch which they clearly misread so isn’t suited, Curran not ready for a three man seam attack, one sessions worth of rest...grim.
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:27 pm

Wicket looks a bit lifeless today...but I bet it'll be hooping around and lifting sharply when Roach steams in this afternoon.

As the chase enters world record territory, the only real expectation from the rest of this test is that the batsmen play themselves into a semblance of form and get time in the middle.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:30 pm

The good news - this test has increased the likelihood of the holy grail Stokes-Foakes-Woakes combination in the side - a small price to pay id say for such potential name alignment
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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:38 pm

This is turning into one for the ages. 77all out, now being demolished by Dowrich and Holder. Certainly one of the worst performances of all time.

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Post by alfie on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:39 pm

Duty281 wrote:Wicket looks a bit lifeless today...but I bet it'll be hooping around and lifting sharply when Roach steams in this afternoon.

As the chase enters world record territory, the only real expectation from the rest of this test is that the batsmen play themselves into a semblance of form and get time in the middle.

Hmm. Think the pitch has gone to sleep : some local advice that this was the pattern here. Not that it will matter much as a 500 run lead means they're going to bowl 'em out eventually.

One might hope the batsmen will indeed get some useful practice - and make the home team bowlers work hard : but the way these fellows play I won't be surprised to see them all out for 170.

If they ever get in : wonder when Holder will declare Smile

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:39 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The good news - this test has increased the likelihood of the holy grail Stokes-Foakes-Woakes combination in the side - a small price to pay id say for such potential name alignment

Maybe that was the game plan all along?

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 3:55 pm

England will probably drop Foakes, give Bairstow the gloves and bat him at 5. Move Moeen up to 3 so he can waft and get out even earlier. Curran bats 6, Buttler down to 7. Jennings replaced with Denly. Something like that anyway

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Post by alfie on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 4:00 pm

England just going through the motions now...waiting for the declaration...which will probably come just before tea . Probably going to wake up to see England 88/5.

I've had enough for now...goodnight/afternoon/morning everyone...

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 4:35 pm

Given the standard of opposition and the scale of the incoming defeat (it could be a 400-run win!), it's safe to say this is set to be one of the most damaging and humiliating defeats ever inflicted on an English test side. It'll be interesting to see how England recover with such a short turnaround for Antigua, and what changes are made for the second test (Broad will surely come in).

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 4:49 pm

Duty281 wrote:Given the standard of opposition and the scale of the incoming defeat (it could be a 400-run win!), it's safe to say this is set to be one of the most damaging and humiliating defeats ever inflicted on an English test side. It'll be interesting to see how England recover with such a short turnaround for Antigua, and what changes are made for the second test (Broad will surely come in).

Lets hope they judge the pitch better second time round!

Should be noted - Antigua in the CPL and recent tests has been slow and low...we’ll see if that changes for this test
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 4:51 pm

Holder notches his third test ton at run-a-ball pace. Three test tons - two against England, one against Zimbabwe.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 4:58 pm

This is what happens when you don't pick the right side. Granted Windies have outplayed us and will throughly deserve a crushing victory if they close the show.

Yes we batted like idiots but how can we go into a Test match with one specialist bowler?

Curran will never be a Test bowler unless he's only bowling on damp green tops. Rashid is dreadful and he was also the least effective in Sri Lanka, he should never play Test cricket again. Moeen is mediocre and what you see is what you get. Stokes has effectively been run into the ground.

Broad and Woakes should've played instead of project players Rashid and Curran

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 4:59 pm

Blimey we don't half make some bad players look good at times. I was mentioning how good we made Shai Hope look, now Holder who is about as good a batsmen as Stuart Broad before he had his nose squashed. Also that big Mitchell Marsh hundred is only a year ago.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 5:04 pm

VTR wrote:Blimey we don't half make some bad players look good at times. I was mentioning how good we made Shai Hope look, now Holder who is about as good a batsmen as Stuart Broad before he had his nose squashed. Also that big Mitchell Marsh hundred is only a year ago.
Sorry but are you watching the same game as me? Holder has always been a capable batter, he's got 3 centuries now. If you watched him during his u19 days he was a true all rounder. Theres nothing to suggest he'd be out of place batting at 6

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 5:10 pm

Having talked about the follow on, it could well have been England down to 61-5 in second dig with Foakes and Curran rescuing us to 270-6. That would put us 135 ahead and we'd have a game on.

Good decision by Holder not to enforce.

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 5:12 pm

Yes, three centuries, one against the mighty Zimbabwe and two against us that were both ridiculous innings to concede. Moving up the order is also exactly what they used to say about Broad. I don't really care for U19 cricket, it's not exactly the same level as Tests

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 5:17 pm

robbo277 wrote:Having talked about the follow on, it could well have been England down to 61-5 in second dig with Foakes and Curran rescuing us to 270-6. That would put us 135 ahead and we'd have a game on.

Good decision by Holder not to enforce.

I suspect whatever Holder did would have been a good decision.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 5:18 pm

A first-class batting average of under 25 isn't exactly what I'd look for from a number six.

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 5:59 pm

Are they batting on to let Holder have a crack at Lara's record?

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 6:03 pm

Well, if this carries on, England are going to be the first side in test match history to be set 1,000+ to win.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 6:10 pm

They shouldn’t declare today - two whole days left, and with a test next week put the overs in the legs of stokes and Anderson
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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 6:13 pm

I think they might when Dowrich gets his hundred. Then Jennings can get started on his monumental match winning double ton

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Post by VTR on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 6:16 pm

Just read the Dowrich averaged 4 against England before this innings. I can't think of anything worse than this even from the Nineties. At least we used to get trashed by decent teams, Windies are one of the worst teams around,

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 6:23 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:They shouldn’t declare today - two whole days left, and with a test next week put the overs in the legs of stokes and Anderson

Olly - applying the Gareth Batty philosophy of gearing the declaration ''to p*ss them off'', I would declare 2 overs after tea today.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 25 Jan 2019, 6:34 pm

This partnership is about to hit treble what the entirety of the England team managed in the first dig. And Dowrich is about to notch his third test ton (other two against Zimbabwe and Sri Lanka).

England's biggest defeat (in runs) was 562 against Australia in 1934. Then there's 425 against the Windies in 1976 and the 409 against the Australian invincibles. Where will this England finish on this beautiful list?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;innings_number=4;orderby=amount;result=2;team=1;template=results;type=team;view=results

Like VTR, I'm struggling to think of a more humiliating debacle.

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