England - the winter tours thread

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.


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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 2:39 pm

alfie wrote:Anderson starting well...Curran less so.

Interesting contrast in team selection as West Indies have gone for an all-pace attack - just the part time spin option in Chase.

Can't both be right...

More a case of West Indies not having any good spinners (but do have a couple of handy part timers), and England having 3 I suspect. West Indies have gone with their strongest players rather than picking to conditions.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 2:41 pm

Meanwhile Campbell is making Currans bowling look as wet as soup.

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Post by alfie on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 2:54 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
alfie wrote:Anderson starting well...Curran less so.

Interesting contrast in team selection as West Indies have gone for an all-pace attack - just the part time spin option in Chase.

Can't both be right...

More a case of West Indies not having any good spinners (but do have a couple of handy part timers), and England having 3 I suspect. West Indies have gone with their strongest players rather than picking to conditions.

I guess so. Still seems a bit eggs-in-one-basket to me. Looking at the early overs there doesn't seem to be a lot to excite the pace men ; though I suppose it could quicken up over the next day or so.

I fancy the spinners will get a good workout.

Opening bats doing well so far. Campbell scoring freely off Curran ...and Brathwaite surviving Anderson - not totally convincingly perhaps but he's still there. Might see a spinner fairly early ?

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:04 pm

Anderson bowling a high-quality spell with no reward.

It'll surely be spin from one end for the second hour.

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Post by alfie on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:06 pm

First hour to the home team...

34/0 after fifteen ... and they've presumably seen off Jimmy - who bowled a pretty testing eight overs. The other two bowlers a bit disappointing I thought. Campbell hasn't missed scoring chances.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:08 pm

alfie wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
alfie wrote:Anderson starting well...Curran less so.

Interesting contrast in team selection as West Indies have gone for an all-pace attack - just the part time spin option in Chase.

Can't both be right...

More a case of West Indies not having any good spinners (but do have a couple of handy part timers), and England having 3 I suspect. West Indies have gone with their strongest players rather than picking to conditions.

I guess so.  Still seems a bit eggs-in-one-basket  to me.  Looking at the early overs there doesn't seem to be a lot to excite the pace men ; though I suppose it could quicken up over the next day or so.

I fancy the spinners will get a good workout.

Opening bats doing well so far. Campbell scoring freely off Curran ...and Brathwaite surviving Anderson - not totally convincingly perhaps but he's still there.  Might see a spinner fairly early ?

No argument really, and England will have some relief about batting second given the lack of specialist spin theyll be facing.

I've also read that the West Indies think there will be variable bounce, whereas England had been talking up the potnetial for turn on the pitch. So it could also be a strong case of different readings. But it certainly is a lot easier to pick spinners when you have decent ones to choose from.


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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:10 pm

Hi folks - I wonder if we are giving too much emphasis here to England's XI being determined by the quality of our late order batting.

I blagged a free copy of The Telegraph this morning. Writing in that, Nick Hoult (another of Olly's mates in the media IIRC) suggested, ''If England go with two spinners, then Adil Rashid is ahead of Jack Leach for his ability to bowl big turning balls on any surface and defeat tail-enders with his googly.''

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Post by alfie on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:12 pm

Here's Moeen ... And it seems Campbell is going to take him on from the off...

This could be interesting.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:16 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Hi folks - I wonder if we are giving too much emphasis here to England's XI being determined by the quality of our late order batting.

I blagged a free copy of The Telegraph this morning. Writing in that, Nick Hoult (another of Olly's mates in the media IIRC) suggested, ''If England go with two spinners, then Adil Rashid is ahead of Jack Leach for his ability to bowl big turning balls on any surface and defeat tail-enders with his googly.''

Which would be the point I was tryin to get at. Rashid and Curran are better bats than Leach and Broad, but they offer us a variety we haven't had before. Both contributed well in the series win against India and featured against Sri Lanka. Although Leach bowled well in Sri Lanka and Broad bowled well in the warm-ups, you can make a case for omitting them on bowling grounds, not just because of the relative ability with the bat.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:16 pm

Is Braithwaite trying for a spot in Geoff Boycotts IPL franchise?

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Post by alfie on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:16 pm

Good morning guildford...I would agree they've picked Rashid because they think his bowling will be more effective (they may be right ? We will see )
Think the batting issue is more about Curran over Broad. Certainly Curran didn't do much to suggest he is a better new ball option in that opening spell...but it is early yet.

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Post by alfie on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:20 pm

Moeen strikes ! Pretty clear lbw.

Campbell was playing with fire there . Not exactly a shock...but he's given them a decent start thumbsup

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 3:25 pm

4 spinners pitch by the looks of it Very Happy

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:07 pm

Definitely the home side's session. Reading the BBC live text I'm not sure there was a chance created really. The wicket was a poor shot, although there was an edge that flew wide of third slip.

The only thing to England's credit is they haven't let West Indies get too far away from them, mainly due to Anderson. England will have to revise their plans for the afternoon session. Rashid on to take it away from the right handers and Anderson to dry up the runs at the other end?

Hopefully Burns and Jennings were paying close attention. See of the opener's first spell then cash in later. It's looking like we'll have to bat big when we get the chance.

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:23 pm

So the first session goes to the WI. Brathwaite seems to have channelized a bit of Cheteshwar Pujara. He was 5 of 55 at one stage, and batted through the first session to give his side a platform. Debutant opener John Campbell had a decent first knock in test cricket, though he should be disappointed he gave it away when he could have really gone on. Shai Hope had a poor 2018 in tests, but he has done some special things against England in the past and has got a start here.
For England, Anderson bowled a good opening spell without reward. Sam Curran wasn't that impressive. Stokes got a couple to jump and beat the bat of both Brathwaite and Hope and Ali, whom the WI batsmen looked to take on took the only wicket of the session without looking like troubling the batsmen a great deal. Rashid too, hasn't produced anything special.
If the West Indies batsmen can continue to show discipline, then it could be a bit of a long day for the England bowlers. But it is West Indies, and though they have picked their best side among the available players, are never too far away from a major collapse.

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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:30 pm

alfie wrote:Good morning guildford...I would agree they've picked Rashid because they think his bowling will be more effective (they may be right ? We will see )
Think the batting issue is more about Curran over Broad.  Certainly Curran didn't do much to suggest he is a better new ball option in that opening spell...but it is early yet.

Morning to you, Alfie. Following on from the above and also the post from Robbo, a bit more from Nick Hoult (the boy writes good imo):

''The sea breeze blowing across the ground will help Sam Curran's swing and the left-arm variation, as well as his batting, is so valued by Root, especially as this could be a short, low-scoring contest.
Curran's selection would leave Stuart Broad left out again, confirming his new status as squad player. However, if the ball is going to seam and hold its shine, then Broad is still one of the best in the business with a Dukes ball. James Anderson, Ben Stokes and Curran bowled as a trio on the middle pitches at wicketkeeper Ben Foakes yesterday., further suggesting they would be Root's seam attack.
''

Olly's man Hoult on the money as regards what the selection would be.

What we've done with the eleven chosen could well turn out to be completely right although I would have opted for Broad and Leach over Curran and Rashid.

Variety is always very handy (and Curran's left-arm certainly provides that) in Tests level but it has to be of sufficient high quality. I'm just not convinced that Curran's bowling is quite yet of sufficient high quality to edge Broad out of the side for this Test. Tbf, I did say that the other day. Curran's bowling in the first half hour or so was disappointing and backs up my earlier thoughts (although it's far too soon to make a meaningful judgement); he didn't pitch it up enough, instead too often bowled too short and copped it as a consequence which sometimes happens with him at Surrey.

As for Rashid, I feel it's too much of a luxury picking a leggie to do his stuff in the second innings when the opposition are already 5 down (in line with Hoult's article and Rainford Brent today on Sky). I want my spinner - even a second spinner - being able to be called upon if necessary on day one and ask questions of the batsmen then. I feel Leach is the man for that and, whilst recognising that tough decisions shouldn't be ducked, that he's earned the opportunity.

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:44 pm

Anderson on to start the 2nd session for England.

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:47 pm

Guildford's man Rashid on from the other end!!

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:49 pm

Kraigg Brathwaite had an almighty struggle in India and Bangladesh late last year, just couldn't buy a run and was troubled big time by spinners. He seems to have made up his mind to stay far more positive to spinners since. Trying to play his shots against Moeen early on, even lofting him against the wind for a 6. Even he's defending with intent against Rashid here.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:54 pm

Looks like a chief executives pitch to me...
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Post by robbo277 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 4:55 pm

This is how I would have lined up after lunch. Real test of my captaincy now!

To be honest Guildford I think there is an argument for having Leach as our first choice spinner and Ali shading Rashid to be second choice spinner. Same with picking Broad over Curran, I would have picked Curran but wouldn't have been here going ALL CAPS about Broad if he'd got the pick.

In fact, I've found the team I suggested a couple of weeks back.

robbo277 wrote:
Burns
Jennings
Bairstow
Root (C)
Stokes
Buttler
Foakes (wk)
Curran
Ali/Broad (depends on conditions)
Anderson
Leach

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 5:34 pm

Campbell will be ruing his missed opportunity - lots of runs left out there. Brathwaite and Hope applying themselves well to the task but, it has to be said, with the exception of Anderson, England simply haven't bowled well enough.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 5:55 pm

Ben Stokes has taken things up a gear - two quick wickets and England are in command.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 6:01 pm

The one thing england have done is keep the run rate under control - meaning two quick wickets like Stokes has just taken really puts them back in the game.

Run rate will change when Hetmyer comes in mind - can’t wait to see him bat, he’s unorthodox but effective
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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 6:11 pm

robbo277 wrote:This is how I would have lined up after lunch. Real test of my captaincy now!

To be honest Guildford I think there is an argument for having Leach as our first choice spinner and Ali shading Rashid to be second choice spinner. Same with picking Broad over Curran, I would have picked Curran but wouldn't have been here going ALL CAPS about Broad if he'd got the pick.

In fact, I've found the team I suggested a couple of weeks back.

robbo277 wrote:
Burns
Jennings
Bairstow
Root (C)
Stokes
Buttler
Foakes (wk)
Curran
Ali/Broad (depends on conditions)
Anderson
Leach

Robbo - I agree England selection is all about very fine margins atm. We've got 3 players - Woakes, Broad and Leach - who probably all deserve a place but can't be found a spot in this Test. Not to say that is the wrong call. Different issues at the top of the order, mind.

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Post by VTR on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 6:18 pm

Windies doing better than most expected, and England continue to do their bit to convince everyone that Shai Hope is a Test batsmen. The guy barely scores a run against anyone else!

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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 6:27 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The one thinTg england have done is keep the run rate under control - meaning two quick wickets like Stokes has just taken really puts them back in the game.

Run rate will change when Hetmyer comes in mind - can’t wait to see him bat, he’s unorthodox but effective

Good point and tribute to Sir Geoffrey. Smile

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:05 pm

The lack of genuine bowlers really annoys me. We've gone in with Anderson front line bowler, followed up by Curran, Stokes, Ali and Rashid. Stokes is a genuine all rounder. Ali bits and pieces. Curran's bowling is very mediocre and he's essentially no more than a fourth seamer. Rashid the less said the better.

Away from home the new ball is vital, if they don't fancy Broad then at least pick Woakes he's capable of standing up the seam.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:07 pm

VTR wrote:Windies doing better than most expected, and England continue to do their bit to convince everyone that Shai Hope is a Test batsmen. The guy barely scores a run against anyone else!
Certain players score runs against certain sides. I remember in the 90s whenever Windies played India it was almost a certainty that Chanderpaul would score a century

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:19 pm

Anderson has just not given away anything. Going at just about 1 an over into his 3rd spell...

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:24 pm

Moeen Ali being far too expensive... West Indies batsmen attacking from the outset, and Moeen hasn't quite settled really.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:28 pm

Thing is once Stone got injured they lost their only real variant - Broad/Leach aren’t much different to these options in terms of pace or spin, in fact Leach was the only bowler to get real tap in the warm up game similar to Moeen so far today.

Looks like it’s going to be one of those long boring tests...placid pitch - things probably gonna start really happening days 4 and 5...chief executives pitch
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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:39 pm

Wicket for Anderson at last as he gets Hope to edge one to Foakes. Hetmyer in, would be interesting to see how he goes about it. Throughout the subcontinent tours, he made runs against both India and Bangladesh, by taking the attack to the bowler regardless of the match situation. Most of the times he came in, the team was in the midst of a terrible collapse.
Now he has come in with a hard earned platform. Will he change his approach?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:43 pm

Buttler puts down Hetmyer - really should’ve been taken at cover off Anderson
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Post by JDizzle on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:51 pm

Really not a fan of picking Curran over Broad in this side. Curran isn’t a second seamer, more like a third/fourth combined with Stokes. Broad has 430 Test Wickets, I’m not throwing them away just cause Sam is a left armer.

Already I can tell I’m going to enjoy watching Hetmyer bat!

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 7:57 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Thing is once Stone got injured they lost their only real variant - Broad/Leach aren’t much different to these options in terms of pace or spin, in fact Leach was the only bowler to get real tap in the warm up game similar to Moeen so far today.

Looks like it’s going to be one of those long boring tests...placid pitch - things probably gonna start really happening days 4 and 5...chief executives pitch
You don't have to be rapid. Broad is a tall man gets bounce. Just watch Holder nothing more than brisk medium pace

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:00 pm

Is Rashid picked as a 2nd innings specialist? Moeen hasn't been doing anything dramatic, yet Rashid doesn't get much of a bowl... And Root on for a bit of a bowl, England's 6th bowler of the day.

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:02 pm

Rashid on and straight away getting smashed!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:03 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The one thing england have done is keep the run rate under control - meaning two quick wickets like Stokes has just taken really puts them back in the game.

Run rate will change when Hetmyer comes in mind - can’t wait to see him bat, he’s unorthodox but effective

Run rate changing!
Looking like a costly drop by Buttler...
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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:05 pm

Who will England give that 2nd new ball to? Anderson just got done with his 3rd spell of the day, would probably still take it. But will it be Stokes or Curran who would come on from the other end? Think it has to be the former.

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Post by msp83 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:06 pm

Root's been far more economical than the 2 frontline spinners.

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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:25 pm

msp83 wrote:Root's been far more economical than the 2 frontline spinners.

Only following intermittently on cricinfo atm but I saw Rashid's figures a few minutes ago were 15-1-50-0.

One of the several things that irritates me about him is that he doesn't apply enough pressure. Ok, I can accept a leggie getting tonked now and again but, regardless of that, I would like there to be more maidens in his analysis. Next to no maidens gives the impression of it being too comfortable for the batsmen. Today so far is only an example - I've noticed it before.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:45 pm

Anderson picks up the fifth of the day. Odd looking scorecard - four batsmen have got to 40, but none of them made it past 57. No reviews either for the entirety of the day.

Rashid and Curran haven't justified their selections. Anderson, though, what a workhorse. A bloody brilliant workhorse.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:52 pm

Dowrich is proper poo
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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:54 pm

2 wicket maidens from Anderson sandwiching a 10 run over from Curran.
Hmmm.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 8:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:Anderson picks up the fifth of the day. Odd looking scorecard - four batsmen have got to 40, but none of them made it past 57. No reviews either for the entirety of the day.

Rashid and Curran haven't justified their selections. Anderson, though, what a workhorse. A bloody brilliant workhorse.

To be fair on Rashid you dont expect much from a legspinner on day 1, and hes been a lot more economical than Moeen. Currans had two new balls and leaked runs with both at times whilst he partner has been almost unplayable, its his worst day in test cricket so far. His pace is down even further than usual too, and whilst Anderson proves thats not everything it is making it easy for the stroke players to pick him off.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:15 pm

264-8 at close of play - top effort by england that for my money. Kept it tight when things weren’t happening, plugged away and then have made great use of the second new ball.

If they can wrap this up for under 300 tomorrow then they have a real chance to get a 1st innings lead
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Post by robbo277 on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:23 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:The one thing england have done is keep the run rate under control - meaning two quick wickets like Stokes has just taken really puts them back in the game.

Run rate will change when Hetmyer comes in mind - can’t wait to see him bat, he’s unorthodox but effective

West Indies lost their 5th wicket for 240 runs in the 83rd over. Modern rates they'd want 30+ more than that. If England can clean this innings up for under 280-290, it's a job well done, even though we were behind for much of the innings. A lot of that is down to Jimmy. He didn't get his wickets early on, but really dried up the runs. 4-33 in 24 overs is a great effort, ably backed up by Stokes on 3-47.

Curran hasn't worked out too well, but he does have another innings to come back in. Rashid hasn't done too well, but Moeen was leaking runs and with not much turn to work with Rashid had to attempt to play an unfamiliar holding role. Hopefully we can wrap this up quickly and focus the attention onto the batting.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:24 pm

Well Stokes and Anderson really turned that around! England should keep the total down to a manageable score, but will be glad of all that batting they have if the West Indies bowl like their senior pair did and get the benefit of the predicted increasing variable bounce.

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Post by sirfredperry on Wed 23 Jan 2019, 9:26 pm

Eight down when it could so easily have ended around 270 for four. Curran for Broad totally daft selection. Just how do they make a decision like that? Also don't like to see the number of overs Anderson had to bowl even though he made full use of them.
After picking the wrong team and losing the toss, England will feel they have got away with it today.

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