England - the winter tours thread

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 11 Dec 2018, 7:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:No Jofra then

Turns out he doesn’t actually qualify until March - so couldn’t make the West Indies tour

...and Smiths being more guarded about him for the world cup than the press hype has been.

But he is eligible for the T20s on this tour, for which the squad hasnt been named yet if he pulls out of the BBL. Aside form that theres just the 5 match warm up series against Pakistan for him to be capped before the world cup.

Smith does seem to think Denly can make a case for inclusion in the world cup squad, so despite him not getting much cricket in sri lanka, struggling with the bat, and only being a replacement for Dawson in the ODI squad he must be doing something right.

Of the two though you'd think Archer had more potential to improve Englands first XI on home pitches.


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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 10 Feb 2019, 9:13 pm

alfie wrote:
Seems everyone who plays for Surrey is in consideration for the top three spots , if media chatter is to be believed  Smile


Sadly Elgars not qualified Rolling Eyes


Back on today ...38 extras in one innings from the west indies, including 6 no balls and 16 wides. Its just shabby in a game where only 3 bastmen passed that mark for the first 20 wickets ( lets say 21, theres no way Jennings is getting 38)

Wood really seems to have found that missing couple of yards of pace today, noticeably up on speed from his usual test efforts and into the genuine quick category. Also the first time hes got results. Very different from the pedestrian Curran, hindsight yeah but it does make you wonder what he or a fit Stone could've done in the first two tests.

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 10 Feb 2019, 9:53 pm

LondonTiger wrote:How much longer is Wood's new run-up?

I was thinking that as well. Looks like Broad and Wood have switched marks!

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 1:05 am

Gooseberry wrote:
It does make you wonder what he or a fit Stone could've done in the first two tests.
Quite what I was thinking.

I don't even feel like I need to eat my words with Wood, as he's promised such before and it's yet to promise any longevity. Puts him into contention for the Ashes though, and could see where he'd have been useful last year.

If Stokes is considered more a strike bowler, could Wood and Stokes balance well together?

Genuine quicks are: (this) Wood, Stone and Archer?
And they are surely competing with Curran and Woakes

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 1:09 am

Talentless did change the game, Wood might get the headlines, but it changed with Talentless' bowling.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 1:14 am

With a heavy schedule with the World Cup just before the Ashes, banking a lot on Wood could also be risky.

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Post by alfie on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 1:51 am

One swallow , etc...

But it is surely a plus - quite a big one - to see Wood at last producing the sort of pace and performance that was hinted at in the past but never actually delivered. I do note he has lengthened his run up ; presumably has worked with coaches to re-tune his game ; people are allowed to improve so I'll take this at face value rather than assuming it was a fluke. Will now be interesting to see if he can back it up : second innings here , for a start.
As others have noted , he will need to be managed - those injury problems have messed him up before. But if he can stay fit he might well be an important factor in the Ashes Series.

Also agree a word or two for Moeen isn't out of place ! His bowling has been generally pretty good since he came back into the team ( if his batting remains dodgy) and he started the job today...

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 8:14 am

alfie wrote:One swallow , etc...

But it is surely a plus - quite a big one - to see Wood at last producing the sort of pace and performance that was hinted at in the past but never actually delivered.  I do note he has lengthened his run up ; presumably has worked with coaches to re-tune his game ; people are allowed to improve so I'll take this at face value rather than assuming it was a fluke.  Will now be interesting to see if he can back it up : second innings here , for a start.
As others have noted , he will need to be managed - those injury problems have messed him up before. But if he can stay fit he might well be an important factor in the Ashes Series.

Also agree a word or two for Moeen isn't out of place ! His bowling has been generally pretty good since he came back into the team ( if his batting remains dodgy) and he started the job today...

As you say Alfie - he's put himself into contention for the Ashes. I do feel a bit for Stone, travelled all winter, gets a back injury before he gets his chance, and his replacement comes in and does well. Hopefully he'll be back soon.

Re: Wood - I think we've seen in England when it's swing conditions he isn't as effective as a Woakes, so England will need to judge conditions well in the Ashes. He doesn't really move the ball much, which in my opinion has been his issue in the past at home. Obviously if it's a pitch/conditions where there will be less swing, then he's in with a shot...albeit from what I have seen of Archer he can bowl similarly quick, and does move the ball (I realise I am hyping him a lot - my new "fad" Guildford!)
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 9:34 am

As for today - a potentially big day for Burns and Denly. Don't think they can cement Ashes places, but they can certainly put themselves at the head of the queue if they can make a significant score. Would also be good if Buttler can follow up his first innings dig, albeit his place isn't in danger (averaging 46.33 since his return to the side last summer, I believe that is the highest of all England batsman during that time...may be mistaken!)

Of course there is the distinct possibility that come tea Brathwaite/Campbell could be at the crease chasing 250 to win...
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 9:43 am

Olly the difference Wood bought here was raw pace of a type hes never produced before. The lack of movement is less of an issue when you're bowling up to 94mph, even Finn at his best wasnt bowling at the consistent pace Wood delivered for his first few overs. Its quite a remarkable step up for him, although apparently hes been bowling like that in the nets and for the Lions.
I would agree that the likes of Woakes/Broad/Anderson/Curran could still be better picks on pure green swinging pitches, but somewhere like Lords which tends to be more bat friendly then Woods pace could really come into the equation...if hes fit. And certainly away from home where the Kookabura ball and conditions tend to nullify most of Englands medicore pace bowlers someone with that raw pace could be invaluable.
The real trick has to be keeping him fit, and keeping him bowling like that. His injury record suggests that might be a problem, as does what happened with Finn.  Its also a bit of a problem that he was exhausted by the end of the day and his pace dropped hugely, it does make him a bit of a luxury player but if England can fit in 6 bowlers then one they can well afford to carry even in a high scoring game.

In the short term hes likely stuck himself forward as a candidate for the world cup team. His ODI record is actually pretty good*, and England could really use a blunt force wicket taking pace bowler to add an extra dimension to their attack. In limited overs his endurance is less of an issue.

It is just one spell, but he has finally shown the speed that has previously been missing in his test performances. It shows his potential.


*edit ...Im talking nonsense. His ODI record is rubbish.


Last edited by Gooseberry on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 10:56 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Of course there is the distinct possibility that come tea Brathwaite/Campbell could be at the crease chasing 250 to win...

I almost expect it!

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Post by alfie on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 12:27 pm

Oh I very much agree with you fellows re "horses for courses" in the Ashes Tests. But past experience suggests there will be pitches which suit a Wood and others that are better for a Woakes...just hope England are able to select accordingly : something they hadn't been doing in the first two Tests here !
Also varying the bowlers might help that injury risk : obviously the usual plan is to keep the two old hands in the attack regularly ; but with (potentially) Wood Stone Woakes Curran ( and , who knows ...Archer ? Overton ? ) all on the sidelines there is the capacity to ensure a fairly fresh and varied pace attack for all occasions.

Something at least emerging from the ashes of a disappointing Caribbean campaign , perhaps...

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:01 pm

Wow, wicket first ball. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:09 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:As for today - a potentially big day for Burns and Denly. Don't think they can cement Ashes places, but they can certainly put themselves at the head of the queue if they can make a significant score. Would also be good if Buttler can follow up his first innings dig, albeit his place isn't in danger (averaging 46.33 since his return to the side last summer, I believe that is the highest of all England batsman during that time...may be mistaken!)

Of course there is the distinct possibility that come tea Brathwaite/Campbell could be at the crease chasing 250 to win...

Well Rory didn’t take advantage of that...caps off what has ultimately been a poor winter for him.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:16 pm

For all the criticism Jennings gets, justifiably, he's currently averaging (marginally) higher than Burns in test cricket. Both around the 25 mark. Early days, I know.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:For all the criticism Jennings gets, justifiably, he's currently averaging (marginally) higher than Burns in test cricket. Both around the 25 mark. Early days, I know.

Oh for the heady days when we were dropping openers for averaging 30.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:31 pm

Big Shannon is not amused with proceedings so far today
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Post by Galted on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 2:38 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Big Shannon is not amused with proceedings so far today

‘Big Shannon’ sounds like a prostitute during the Jack the Ripper era.
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Post by VTR on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:03 pm

Surely even England can set and defend 300 from here. Cue Roston Chase double hat trick maiden

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Post by robbo277 on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:12 pm

It's about time England showed up on this tour! Today isn't really about the team any more, it's about the batsmen making safe their places for the summer. The match situation allows them to be selfish. Bat all day and get a ton, don't worry about your strike rate. It doesn't matter, there's plenty of time to bowl West Indies out again.

Now Burns is gone, Jennings and Denly both need big runs here and at the start of the season to come back in the summer, but it starts with getting those runs here. West Indies are a bowler down, so just stay in and cash in later in the day.

On the bowling front, it was good to see Wood do what he did. I imagine he might play against Ireland regardless, just to see if he can back it up. You'd think Anderson and Broad would spearhead the attack against the Aussies, but if you could get them first class cricket elsewhere, it wouldn't be the worst idea to play Woakes, Wood and Curran against Irish with Stokes and Moeen, and the three of them can have a bit of a shootout for the Ashes. I imagine though that we won't be able to outpace the Aussies, so we might see greener pitches that we can exploit, so Woakes or Curran might be the go-to guys.

Potential team for Ireland: Burns*, Jennings*, Denly*, Root, Buttler, Stokes, Bairstow, Ali, Woakes, Curran, Wood - should be good enough to do a job.

*or whoever is in line to start the Ashes if we find a new top 3 player.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 3:23 pm

Jennings with the face of a man who knows his test career may have just ended due to a big stroke of bad luck.

An innocuous leg side ball catches the underside of his thigh pad, takes a horrible diversion and hits the stumps.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:17 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
alfie wrote:One swallow , etc...

But it is surely a plus - quite a big one - to see Wood at last producing the sort of pace and performance that was hinted at in the past but never actually delivered.  I do note he has lengthened his run up ; presumably has worked with coaches to re-tune his game ; people are allowed to improve so I'll take this at face value rather than assuming it was a fluke.  Will now be interesting to see if he can back it up : second innings here , for a start.
As others have noted , he will need to be managed - those injury problems have messed him up before. But if he can stay fit he might well be an important factor in the Ashes Series.

Also agree a word or two for Moeen isn't out of place ! His bowling has been generally pretty good since he came back into the team ( if his batting remains dodgy) and he started the job today...

As you say Alfie - he's put himself into contention for the Ashes. I do feel a bit for Stone, travelled all winter, gets a back injury before he gets his chance, and his replacement comes in and does well. Hopefully he'll be back soon.

Re: Wood - I think we've seen in England when it's swing conditions he isn't as effective as a Woakes, so England will need to judge conditions well in the Ashes. He doesn't really move the ball much, which in my opinion has been his issue in the past at home. Obviously if it's a pitch/conditions where there will be less swing, then he's in with a shot...albeit from what I have seen of Archer he can bowl similarly quick, and does move the ball (I realise I am hyping him a lot - my new "fad" Guildford!)

A bit late on - so just to say excellent posts, gentlemen. Very much with those comments.

What is it to be then, Olly? Archer Targets England? Wink

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:21 pm

He looks like he's trying but Jennings really isn't up to it on any level is he. He's had two decent runs in the side now without ever looking comfortable against seam bowling. Unless Australia are going to open with Lyon and lambuschange he's completely useless for home tests.

I'm pretty certain that England will stick by Burns for the summer regardless of his poor start. Give him a chance on the home wickets where he was head and shoulders the best run scoring opener in the county game last season.

Denly has quite possibly bought himself a shout of that second openers spot. Pretty depressing but this is what we have.

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Post by VTR on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:24 pm

Archer Targets England is good! Would "Bayliss gets Wood over Durham man's pace" be a bit too risqué for the BBC?

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:29 pm

Interesting words from Nasser Hussain in the break about Jennings batting like he learnt how to bat against a bowling machine. He also spoke very candidly about the failure of the county circuit to give coaches and players time between games to work on weaknesses due to how congested the summer is and the amount of time spent travelling.

I've a lot of time for Hussain as a pundit. He's smart, cares a lot about the game, still watches county cricket on a regular basis and is always candid without looking to rile his peers for the sake of it. One of the very best pundits around these days.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 4:32 pm

king_carlos wrote:Jennings with the face of a man who knows his test career may have just ended due to a big stroke of bad luck.

An innocuous leg side ball catches the underside of his thigh pad, takes a horrible diversion and hits the stumps.

Hi Carlos - sure, very unlucky to be bowled by that ball. However, an in form batsman would have glanced it firmly to the rope or left well alone.

Meanwhile, Denly seeming to be making the most of his good fortune after a bad miss at slip by Hetmyer off Gabriel. The fielder's legs and body seemed all wrong as he attempted to take the catch side on and then unsuccessfully snatched at it. As mentioned above, the bowler did not appear overly chuffed. Denly was on just 12 then and has now advanced to 40 odd at lunch. A half-century should keep him in contention at least for the Ashes. Fine margins sometimes. If that catch had been held, that could have been it for Denly in Tests.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 5:34 pm

Denly goes, didn't get a ton. I'd written him off as a very short-term option, likely to be discarded after this series, but now that he's played a decent knock with some eye-catching shots, he may just get another go. As Guildford points out, though, fine margins.

Even if England collapse from here, they should have enough.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 6:28 pm

Duty281 wrote:Denly goes, didn't get a ton. I'd written him off as a very short-term option, likely to be discarded after this series, but now that he's played a decent knock with some eye-catching shots, he may just get another go. As Guildford points out, though, fine margins.

Even if England collapse from here, they should have enough.

It's a regular running gag between me and Olly during Surrey CC games that it's a real stretch to score the highest innings total in the final dig. Mind you, many a true word spoken in jest ....

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Post by alfie on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 7:24 pm

Nice to wake up and find the batsmen have turned up at last...poor West Indies apparently suffering with the dropped catches and injured bowlers etc...always seems to happen when fortune turns against you.
(Not that I'd suggest luck has been the main cause of the 2-0 scoreline : the home team had clearly out played England. But it didn't mean the two teams had reverted to 1980s balance of power. More that there are currently no teams good enough to win constantly unless they are very much switched on and playing near their best. At least it means most Tests are potentially contests these days)

Top three haven't exactly decided anything for the summer , have they ? Not sure I'd vote for Denly on the strength of one second innings fifty ; but I guess it keeps him in the mix. Still think county form should be a big factor when they're picking the team for the Australian challenge : and I guess the Ireland Test will automatically be something of a trial run...I wonder how reliable an indicator that will be ?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 7:49 pm

Buttler won’t be too chuffed, but England’s bowlers won’t be unhappy to see that delivery from Roach with the new ball - absolutely unplayable
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 8:12 pm

Things shaping up nicely for Root to miss out on a century again Rolling Eyes

Well Buttlers answered his critics in this game again.... temporarily ...but hes still not a test 5 is he lets face it etc. Jokes asie though since hes recall hes batted as well as anyone for England and absolutely deserves his spot, even if thats down to a lack of competition. The simple fact is that these days averaging over 35 isnt bad for an England batsman, something no doubt not lost on Ian Bell Whistle

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 8:53 pm

300 up for England and surely a comfortable winning position, Root 3 runs short of converting 3 50's to centuries in a row...after failing on the previous 11. Sadly the individual big innings seem to have replaced his consistency, and overall hes been short of runs for the last 3 series.

Gabriels having a go at Stokes. Hes obviously not seen that video!

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 9:17 pm

Gooseberry wrote:300 up for England and surely a comfortable winning position, Root 3 runs short of converting 3 50's to centuries in a row...after failing on the previous 11.  Sadly the individual big innings seem to have replaced his consistency, and overall hes been short of runs for the last 3 series.

Gabriels having a go at Stokes. Hes obviously not seen that video!

For sure unless we massively mess up.

I did wonder about a declaration late on today but all in all reckoned it was best to give our seamers a full day with their feet up. I guess Root thought the same, not being influenced at all by being in the mid 90s then. Wink

Maybe bat on now for around another 25 minutes in the morning. We don't need the runs but there's plenty of time left. It also allows a bit more rest for the England bowlers, keeps Brathwaite and Campbell wondering when they'll be padding up and generally p*sses the home side off.

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Post by alfie on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 9:36 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:300 up for England and surely a comfortable winning position, Root 3 runs short of converting 3 50's to centuries in a row...after failing on the previous 11.  Sadly the individual big innings seem to have replaced his consistency, and overall hes been short of runs for the last 3 series.

Gabriels having a go at Stokes. Hes obviously not seen that video!

For sure unless we massively mess up.

I did wonder about a declaration late on today but all in all reckoned it was best to give our seamers a full day with their feet up. I guess Root thought the same, not being influenced at all by being in the mid 90s then. Wink

Maybe bat on now for around another 25 minutes in the morning. We don't need the runs but there's plenty of time left. It also allows a bit more rest for the England bowlers, keeps Brathwaite and Campbell wondering when they'll be padding up and generally p*sses the home side off.

Absolutely ! Poor bloody bowlers have been the victims of batting collapses too often recently , being back out bowling a session or too after thinking they were done for the day... Reckon they were owed this one.

In any case , as you say , batting on and annoying the opponents will be good tactics...and there doesn't seem to be any need for hurry with two full days left...

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Post by VTR on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 9:48 pm

Well England won't want to risk another Shai Hope special! Joking aside, this is the kind of performance most expected from the start. Helped by some injuries and a suspension of course, but this is much better from England. A shame the first two tests were the warm up matches

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 11:33 pm

65 extras in 201 overs from the West Indies, pretty shabby

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 11:48 pm

On Sky's Cricket Debate, Willis favoured our putting on another 100 in the morning. Probably most realistically Stewart said, ''It's neither here or there'' being confident of the England win and leaving it to those there to decide when our bowlers should be let loose.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 11 Feb 2019, 11:55 pm

Well Joe Root declared too early in the 2017 Headingley test, but England are well past that point now. They could declare overnight and it wouldn't make much difference. I expect them to bat on for another hour, maybe as much as the full morning session.

Should give England 150 overs to win the test, barring rain/bad light/ball tampering scandal etc.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 4:51 am

Yeah I’d probably bat on for another hour, hour and a half in the morning, get the lead over 500 and then give Anderson/Broad two bites at the new ball pre and post lunch
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 7:50 am

Just seen the clip of Shannon Gabriel and Joe Root's verbal tussle. Joe is a hero.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 8:17 am

Was Keemo Paul unable to bowl for most of the day? They barely used him yesterday and have ended up with a lot of overs of innocuous spin (ignore the first test debacle!)
Between the two innings Chase and Braithwaite have shared 57 overs , no wickets for 163 runs. Gabriels been overbowled and despite all his bluster and talk been expensive and ineffective in the second innings.

They really miss Holder not for his leadership but to spread out the workload.

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Post by VTR on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 8:43 am

Yes Paul was off injured, so they were down to an increasingly tired Roach, Gabriel and Joseph, with Murali unable to carry on from his 8-for it was a long day in the field for them

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 9:38 am

https://twitter.com/skycricket/status/1095246700602712064?s=21
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 11:11 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:https://twitter.com/skycricket/status/1095246700602712064?s=21
Like I said, hero. What a boy, I’ll never question him again

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 12:46 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:https://twitter.com/skycricket/status/1095246700602712064?s=21
Like I said, hero. What a boy, I’ll never question him again

What with this and Stokes slaying down homophobes in Bristol a year or two ago, this England side is the most progressive sporting outfit going
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 1:34 pm

Might not win the Ashes. Might not win the World Cup. But the Nobel Peace Prize is in the bag.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 1:52 pm

Some rain might threaten England's chances of victory.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 2:36 pm

Hey! Root takes my advice from last night and declares after about 25 minutes. Mind you, it could have been influenced by Duty's weather forecast and Root himself getting out! Wink


Last edited by guildfordbat on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 2:41 pm

I think even Nathaniel would agree that was a decent catch by Moeen.

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Post by VTR on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 3:24 pm

Finally, the real Windies team turns up. A bit annoying a bunch of ringers played in the first two tests

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 12 Feb 2019, 3:24 pm

Doesn't look like England will be too taxed today...11/3. Anderson demolishing the top order. He's had a good series and has really enhanced his reputation over the last two years.

Averaged 14 with the ball in the series against South Africa and the West Indies in 2017. 28 in the Ashes down under. 25 in New Zealand. 19 and 18 against Pakistan and India respectively last summer. Now around 22 in this series. Only blip was the 105 average in Sri Lanka!

And he's 25 wickets away from getting 600 test wickets. 83 more for 1,000 first-class wickets.

Phenomenal.

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