6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

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6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 31 Jan 2019, 1:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Part 1 - http://www.606v2.com/t68214-6-nations-ireland-v-england-2nd-feb-2019

Details:

Date: Saturday 2nd February 2019
Time: 16:45 GMT
Location: Dublin, Aviva Stadium
Media Coverage: ITV, TV3, BBC (highlights only), Radio 5Live


Officials


Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)



Teams

Ireland

15 Robbie Henshaw, 14 Keith Earls, 13 Garry Ringrose, 12 Bundee Aki, 11 Jacob Stockdale, 10 Johnny Sexton, 9 Conor Murray; 1 Cian Healy, 2 Rory Best, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 4 Devin Toner, 5 James Ryan, 6 Peter O'Mahony, 7 Josh van der Flier, 8 CJ Stander.

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Dave Kilcoyne, 18 Andrew Porter, 19 Quinn Roux, 20 Sean O'Brien, 21 John Cooney, 22 Joey Carbery, 23 Jordan Larmour


England

15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 25 caps), 14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 40 caps), 13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 17 caps), 12 Manu Tuiagi (Leicester Tigers, 27 caps), 11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps), 10 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 65 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps); 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps), 2 Jamie George (Saracens, 32 caps), 3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 17 caps), 4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 26 caps), 5 George Kruis (Saracens, 27 caps), 6 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 8 caps), 7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps), 8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 36 caps).

16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps), 17 Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 15 caps), 19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 68 caps), 20 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 18 caps), 21 Dan Robson (Wasps, uncapped), 22 George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps), 23 Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks, 42 caps).


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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by GeordieFalcon on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:01 pm

Poorfour wrote:But apparently England aren't a settled team with a coherent game plan, so what do we know?

Exactly that's what I di didnt imagine would be the case

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by hugehandoff on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:02 pm

Important now for Eddie to use his squad wisely. France self destructed last night having looked much better than Wales and I expect them to be very tough. Hopefully T'eo is available and if Maro needs a rest then bring on Joe - a good position to be in. Curry was excellent and when Underhill returns we will at least have options.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by yappysnap on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:03 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Wow well done England really caught them napping

Nope.

Just out played them and out worked them.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:05 pm

Miaow,

Youngs has been poo for Tigers this season yet good in every game for England. I expect him to be pretty decent throughout this tournament, then come back to Welford Road and stink

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:07 pm

BamBam wrote:Definitely wasn't expecting that! Can't remember the last time we looked that strong against Ireland, thanks to the Irish fans for their sporting comments.

For us, the Itoje injury is a bit of a worry, and we need to make sure we continue in this form. We won the first two comprehensively last year then fell apart, just want to see this kind of physicality and clinical attack continue for the rest of the year!

Too bad there’s no sporting comments from England fans though. The England team were very good today. Try for May and MOTM for Mako, both in my fantasy team.

Wales for the grand slam?

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:08 pm

yappysnap wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Wow well done England really caught them napping

Nope.

Just out played them and out worked them.

You definitely outplayed Ireland. I really wasn’t expecting that.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:08 pm

miaow wrote:
Poorfour wrote:But apparently England aren't a settled team with a coherent game plan, so what do we know?

I think it'll be interesting when England face a more diverse/varied gameplan than Ireland's. England effectively didn't have to show their full hand. They didn't have to do very much to win the game, which is hugely encouraging - they were accurate and dominant in the moments they moved the ball, and tactically got it spot on to get the ball wide and 'turn' the Irish outside backs for the tries. But Mako and Sinckler weren't given a tough time in the scrum, nor was George's throwing pressured either - helped by Kruis' presence no doubt. There's a luxury for England in that they can play 4 quality, and different, locks depending on opposition. But players/teams look very, very different in ability when they have front foot ball compared to when they're forced to back pedal (in attack or defence). By and large, England had dominance in the phase plays today, and Ireland couldn't deal with that - they beat the ABs with those tactics and I don't think Schmidt thought England would be better than them in that regard, but they were.

I honestly don't think any side can deal with England's physicality, including NZ, if they put an 80 minute, accurate yet brutal performance in. It's the other areas where England can get beaten, but it didn't happen today. From the first whistle England were more up for it than Ireland and kept it up until the 80th. If a team rattles them in any key facet where Ireland failed to today - set pieces, breakdown, kicking game, width and fringe defence - then maybe we see the cracks in the coherence or where certain units aren't as strong as they looked today. For instance, I can't see hope Ben Youngs doesn't putting in another display like he did today against Wales, Scotland, or France.

Corrected



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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:15 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
ebop wrote:Well done England. When they had the ball they actually looked like they could spark something unlike Ireland and their boring wrap arounds and box kicks. Ireland were very underwhelming for a team that is hyped up so much.

They beat the All Blacks last time out, though.

I just hope England haven't given away too many of their tactics ahead of the rest of the 6N and the RWC.

Part of why they lost here. Picking the important matches is key to top three success. The ABs have that better than most, for you cant win them all in todays game. This was important to Ireland, and they were way under prepared for the English aggression. Jones out thought Schmidt by a mile here. England bullied Ireland out of the game. Not the first time tgats happened.

Important point well made. Both Eng and Ire targeted NZ in the autumn but Ireland looked better (and won) of the two; England clearly prepared more specific tactics for Ireland than vice versa and it proved the difference. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wales and Scotland cause England some trouble. Think England will batter France in a high scoring game for both teams, but there's no way England will be as prepared for any other team in the tournament than they were today. I'd hazard a guess and say that Gatland and Wales has done likewise with either Ireland or England, with both being home games - Townsend likewise. England now strong favourites for the title but it's not over - modern rugby dictates things are never that easy.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by majesticimperialman on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:16 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Wow well done England really caught them napping

Nope.

Just out played them and out worked them.

You definitely outplayed Ireland. I really wasn’t expecting that.

Neither was i. England/ Wales/ Scotland now for tournament/Grand Slam. 

It is going to be interesting from this week end on wards.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:16 pm

yappysnap wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:Wow well done England really caught them napping

Nope.

Just out played them and out worked them.

True, and Schmidt got dealt to by Jones. Jones applied a simple straight at em pressure gameplan and Schmidt had no answers. Again confirmation that Ireland cant afford to be behind late in the game. No plan B, and no individuals to flip the match, they just tried to grind away. Not the sort of gameplan that will last three world cup knockouts, especially under pressure.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by robbo277 on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:23 pm

Without a doubt in my mind that is the best England performance since the second test in Australia. The physicality, brutality at certain times, stopped Ireland getting any momentum.

Mako put in a huge shift. Curry, Slade and May were fantastic, and the half backs controlled the game well.

All the talk of Daly before the game, it was Ireland's centre playing at 15 who got found out in terms of his positioning. He didn't have much support with Ireland leaving their wingers up in the front line of defence, but England's kicking game dragged him from pillar to post.

Ireland will bounce back from this. They'll play better in this tournament, they're too good not to. The trip to Murrayfield now will become a real test of how Schmidt can rally his players - especially in the context of the World Cup.

I'm interested to see how England go here. This was the one we wanted this year, we threw everything at it. The challenge is to raise it again for France, who looked good in patches against Wales. If we play at this level we'll blow them off the park.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:25 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Miaow,

Youngs has been poo for Tigers this season yet good in every game for England. I expect him to be pretty decent throughout this tournament, then come back to Welford Road and stink

I think that's the nature of Ben Youngs though, ever since he's been an international player? Had a stormer in 2016 in Australia, for instance - but he can never maintain his level for very long. He's never really poor, he's prone to periods of being a bit ordinary but his experience and quality means he's usually, at worst, a net zero rather than a negative for the team. But when he plays well, he can suddenly look world class. I'm not sure that was a world class 9 performance today, but it was brilliant kicking and tactical control from his. And WELL PAST IT you're right - I absolutely hope he doesn't play as well against Wales. Same goes for most of the team; I hope Wales offer more with ball in hand and upset England more at the set piece and breakdown than Ireland did today.

Weirdly, that's as bad as I've seen Murray play for a long time. And Sexton - which does show how conditional the prestige we give to players really is. Most people would've considered them the best half backs in the world before tonight, but it's easy to argue against that when they looked so out of ideas. Even behind a retreating pack, Genia and whoever Australia pick at 10 in the carousel usually perform better. Not saying they're better, just saying they're more adaptable.

Which is what I'm wondering about Youngs and England. He executed a tactical gameplan brilliantly today, but I don't think his skillset is world class - just reliably quality at test level. Think Leicester have issues that go right to boardroom level that effect things on the pitch - not Youngs or any other player's fault there necessarily.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:27 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
ebop wrote:Well done England. When they had the ball they actually looked like they could spark something unlike Ireland and their boring wrap arounds and box kicks. Ireland were very underwhelming for a team that is hyped up so much.

They beat the All Blacks last time out, though.

I just hope England haven't given away too many of their tactics ahead of the rest of the 6N and the RWC.

Part of why they lost here. Picking the important matches is key to top three success. The ABs have that better than most, for you cant win them all in todays game. This was important to Ireland, and they were way under prepared for the English aggression. Jones out thought Schmidt by a mile here. England bullied Ireland out of the game. Not the first time tgats happened.

Important point well made. Both Eng and Ire targeted NZ in the autumn but Ireland looked better (and won) of the two; England clearly prepared more specific tactics for Ireland than vice versa and it proved the difference. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wales and Scotland cause England some trouble. Think England will batter France in a high scoring game for both teams, but there's no way England will be as prepared for any other team in the tournament than they were today. I'd hazard a guess and say that Gatland and Wales has done likewise with either Ireland or England, with both being home games - Townsend likewise. England now strong favourites for the title but it's not over - modern rugby dictates things are never that easy.

Getting the two Vs and Manus directness in midfield back was critical to this win though and on the two english performances vs NZ and Ireland, think they would have beaten NZ had those three been there. They all but did without them so from a personnel perspective England improved hugely on that basis alone here.

Concerning for Ireland will be so many lacklustre performances from Murray, Sexton, Ryan, the back row and particularly the back three who were defensively poor on the England chips, Kearney woukdnt have made that much difference. Anyway, onwards. Poor match from a skills perspective, not a lot happening between the 22’s bar chips and box kicks. Abbraisive, but a lot of handling errors and little quality ball through the hands bar Farrells pass for the first try. The Murray Sexton pairing looked anything but world class. Rusty? Time will tell, but England do look to have that juggernaut look about them again. Clumsy, but effective.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by BamBam on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:31 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Definitely wasn't expecting that! Can't remember the last time we looked that strong against Ireland, thanks to the Irish fans for their sporting comments.

For us, the Itoje injury is a bit of a worry, and we need to make sure we continue in this form. We won the first two comprehensively last year then fell apart, just want to see this kind of physicality and clinical attack continue for the rest of the year!

Too bad there’s no sporting comments from England fans though. The England team were very good today. Try for May and MOTM for Mako, both in my fantasy team.

Wales for the grand slam?

Can someone give mikey some attention, he's trying oh so hard to get some

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by TJ on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:32 pm

It wasn't pretty, it wasn't free flowing rugby but by 'eck it was effective.

Sexton and the rest did not have a bad game on their own.  They had a bad game 'cos England defensive line was both quick and solid and Ireland got no go forward at any point.  Its not Ireland had a bad day.  Its england did for them with line speed and dominatant tackles.
Sexton even at his best does not have the game to negate what was happening.  take away his time and space and he is negated.  Does any other ten in the NH? - we will see.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by TJ on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:33 pm

Can someone give mikey some attention, he's trying oh so hard to get some
Best ignored.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by lostinwales on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:40 pm

From an England point of view it is also worth pointing out how well that centre combo worked.

What I liked about Manu is that he didn't feel like he had to be involved every time. He waited for opportunities rather than chase the ball all the time (Nowell's job...). So when he did go for it he caused problems.

Slade was immense.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:40 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
ebop wrote:Well done England. When they had the ball they actually looked like they could spark something unlike Ireland and their boring wrap arounds and box kicks. Ireland were very underwhelming for a team that is hyped up so much.

They beat the All Blacks last time out, though.

I just hope England haven't given away too many of their tactics ahead of the rest of the 6N and the RWC.

Part of why they lost here. Picking the important matches is key to top three success. The ABs have that better than most, for you cant win them all in todays game. This was important to Ireland, and they were way under prepared for the English aggression. Jones out thought Schmidt by a mile here. England bullied Ireland out of the game. Not the first time tgats happened.

Important point well made. Both Eng and Ire targeted NZ in the autumn but Ireland looked better (and won) of the two; England clearly prepared more specific tactics for Ireland than vice versa and it proved the difference. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wales and Scotland cause England some trouble. Think England will batter France in a high scoring game for both teams, but there's no way England will be as prepared for any other team in the tournament than they were today. I'd hazard a guess and say that Gatland and Wales has done likewise with either Ireland or England, with both being home games - Townsend likewise. England now strong favourites for the title but it's not over - modern rugby dictates things are never that easy.

Getting the two Vs and Manus directness in midfield back was critical to this win though and on the two english performances vs NZ and Ireland, think they would have beaten NZ had those three been there. They all but did without them so from a personnel perspective England improved hugely on that basis alone here.  

Concerning for Ireland will be so many lacklustre performances from Murray, Sexton, Ryan, the back row and particularly the back three who were defensively poor on the England chips, Kearney woukdnt have made that much difference. Anyway, onwards. Poor match from a skills perspective, not a lot happening between the 22’s bar chips and box kicks. Abbraisive, but a lot of handling errors and little quality ball through the hands bar Farrells pass for the first try. The Murray Sexton pairing looked anything but world class. Rusty? Time will tell, but England do look to have that juggernaut look about them again. Clumsy, but effective.

Perhaps. I do think NZ left a few key tries out on the field that day - the one that springs to mind is Ardie Savea's drop but I'm fairly certain there were two other key 'misses' that would have changed the game. If England had to open up against NZ, rather than try to hold on to a win, then maybe NZ would have found the win easier to come by - maybe not, but I'd back the former scenario.

England didn't really have that situation today; Ireland dominated the second quarter in terms of possession and it was the best period for them, and were sort of in it up until the hour mark, but going for 3 points rather than the corner proved costly. They never really had another try scoring chance; England went on from there and scored a (dubious) third try, a penalty, and then a fourth try directly from a dominant rush defence that read Ireland like a book. Against NZ, Engand didn't score after the 20th minute (around then anyway) and barely threatened until Underhill's (unfortunate, but correctly) disallowed try. It was for the most part a rearguard action by England - here, although it was similar in some ways, England were far more comfortable, the kicking far more aggressive rather than territorial, the rush defence far more dominant. NZ also never looked clueless - Ireland looked beaten the moment Slade's try was awarded. You could see they knew they couldn't break England down: they couldn't go through them and, shattered, they didn't fancy their chances moving it wide either. As it proved with Slade's second.

You're right, the Pacific Island talent in England's team is vital. Tuilagi is so obviously vital to England's success and has been a big miss. I actually thought Aki played better today, albeit in a losing team, but that takes nothing away from Tuilagi. Vunipolas are a bit different in what they offer but also key. Think the way to play against them has to be to keep the ball in play, play at a tempo that the big boys will hate, and don't be afraid to turn the ball over a few times - that seemed to be Ireland's biggest fear, they barely tried anything for fear of isolation or getting driven back in the tackle (until too late, like Aki getting a hospital pass and getting hammered by Tuilagi).

If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by RugbyFan100 on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:43 pm

EXCELLENT RESULT. Chuffed to bits.

Both Vuni brothers and locks were amazing.

Rugby Union the true winner tonight. Cheers to my English friends.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by eirebilly on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:47 pm

Been a long time since I have seen this Irish team second best at almost every aspect in a game. England completely out thought and out played Ireland. Absolutely deserved victory thumbsup
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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Presuming Ed on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:50 pm

Hadn't seen much of Curry and Wilson before this game except on the channel 5 highlights show. Outstanding at controlling the breakdown and contact zone against a very savvy Irish pack. What a great start against a top team. Got to keep it going now.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by lostinwales on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:51 pm

miaow wrote:....

You're right, the Pacific Island talent in England's team is vital. Tuilagi is so obviously vital to England's success and has been a big miss. I actually thought Aki played better today, albeit in a losing team, but that takes nothing away from Tuilagi. Vunipolas are a bit different in what they offer but also key. Think the way to play against them has to be to keep the ball in play, play at a tempo that the big boys will hate, and don't be afraid to turn the ball over a few times - that seemed to be Ireland's biggest fear, they barely tried anything for fear of isolation or getting driven back in the tackle (until too late, like Aki getting a hospital pass and getting hammered by Tuilagi).

If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns.

Aki was good - but I do wonder what you expect Tuilagi to have to have done to rate higher.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Presuming Ed on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:55 pm

"If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns".[/quote]

Against the Italian defence, of course they looked good. Ignorant comment.


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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Yoda on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 8:55 pm

It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Yoda on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:02 pm

lostinwales wrote:
miaow wrote:....

You're right, the Pacific Island talent in England's team is vital. Tuilagi is so obviously vital to England's success and has been a big miss. I actually thought Aki played better today, albeit in a losing team, but that takes nothing away from Tuilagi. Vunipolas are a bit different in what they offer but also key. Think the way to play against them has to be to keep the ball in play, play at a tempo that the big boys will hate, and don't be afraid to turn the ball over a few times - that seemed to be Ireland's biggest fear, they barely tried anything for fear of isolation or getting driven back in the tackle (until too late, like Aki getting a hospital pass and getting hammered by Tuilagi).

If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns.

Aki was good - but I do wonder what you expect Tuilagi to have to have done to rate higher.

Didn't even notice aki until manu shoved his head up his arse when he got a terrible pass. As for Scotland I thought they played well and did score some nice tries however Italy were very poor until the last 10 mins. Why keep kicking to hogg? Italy just don't have the players to compete until some of those u20 come through.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by TJ on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:02 pm

Presuming Ed wrote:"If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns".


Against the Italian defence, of course they looked good. Ignorant comment



I would back Scotland to score tries against England.  I would back them to score tries against any team in the world - as they have done this last few years.  Russell is so much better than any other NH 10 at reading the game and putting players into space.  Problem against England is that Scotland have nothing to counter the power of england in the forwards and Tuilagi.  I very much doubt Scotland will beat england - but I bet they score several tries in getting beat.


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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Mr Bounce on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:02 pm

One of the best England performances I have seen in a long time. Superb constant pressure, the best tackling I can remember, and some excellent work from everyone involved. Mako, Slade, May and Curry were all immense, and the rest of the team were not far behind. Sure there were a couple of minor mistakes but overall, a massive performance.

Well done to the English chaps. You did what most didn't expect - completely outplayed Ireland.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by lostinwales on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:03 pm

Yoda wrote:It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

If I had another criticism of Garces is that he did let the breakdown be a bit of a free for all in some respects. Both teams generally played the breakdown well, but I think both teams got away with holding on to the ball past the time another ref would have blown up

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:05 pm

lostinwales wrote:
miaow wrote:....

You're right, the Pacific Island talent in England's team is vital. Tuilagi is so obviously vital to England's success and has been a big miss. I actually thought Aki played better today, albeit in a losing team, but that takes nothing away from Tuilagi. Vunipolas are a bit different in what they offer but also key. Think the way to play against them has to be to keep the ball in play, play at a tempo that the big boys will hate, and don't be afraid to turn the ball over a few times - that seemed to be Ireland's biggest fear, they barely tried anything for fear of isolation or getting driven back in the tackle (until too late, like Aki getting a hospital pass and getting hammered by Tuilagi).

If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns.

Aki was good - but I do wonder what you expect Tuilagi to have to have done to rate higher.

Exactly, it's not a knock on Tuilagi. In part because Aki needed to be good for Ireland as others were failing around him in a way Tuilagi's teammates weren't, particularly in terms of gainline success. Just think Aki was more involved, showed good hands at times in Ireland's attempt strike plays, solid in defence and was huge in the carry, hence saying I thought he performed better out of the two. But it's no slight.

Also Aki definitely 'beat' Tuilagi in a contact at one stage - I think in the English 22, second half. Tuilagi hits him and Aki's leg drive powers Tuilagi back in the tackle. Doesn't mean he played better than him - bet if people didn't notice him until the hospital pass hit, it's pretty telling!


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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:06 pm

Presuming Ed wrote:"If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns".

Against the Italian defence, of course they looked good. Ignorant comment.

Not an ignorant comment in the slightest. Scotland have had the most potent attacking backs (and backline, i.e. gameplan) in the NH since around the time of the last RWC. It's just that they often overplay, rely too much on the instinct of Russell, and don't have the pack/power to consistently challenge for the 6Ns title.

Presuming Ed living up to the name...

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Exiledinborders on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:11 pm

TJ wrote: Russell is so much better than any other NH 10 at reading the game and putting players into space. 
I agree. However he is also better than any other NH 10 at throwing stupid passes when it just isn't on.


I love watching him and he is superbly talented but he can sometimes lack judgement.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:14 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Yoda wrote:It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

If I had another criticism of Garces is that he did let the breakdown be a bit of a free for all in some respects. Both teams generally played the breakdown well, but I think both teams got away with holding on to the ball past the time another ref would have blown up

Agree with this. He was very lenient also in something that has crept into the game, particularly as the ruck has turned less into driving and more into 'positioning' - and that is the tackled player moving on the floor. I distinctly remember Henshaw in the second half, fielding a grubber through near to his own line, getting tackled, being the 'wrong side' of the tackler and literally jumping/wrapping his body 90 degrees so he can place the ball back to his own supporting players, but also to use his body to shield it before he places it back after England's first arrivals have engaged the ruck. There was also a blatant one for England - I think from a maul, it collapses, and a player in the middle of it sort of picks it up and passes to the 9, that he let go. I think partisan fans will feel hard done by but honestly that was a refereeing performance conspicuous by its absence: he didn't actually want to penalise either team. Call that feel for the game, fine, but it probably helped England clean out and secure their own ball every so slightly as accuracy wasn't, nor time holding on (more beneficial to Ireland), wasn't really an issue for Garces.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by TJ on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:15 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
TJ wrote: Russell is so much better than any other NH 10 at reading the game and putting players into space. 
I agree. However he is also better than any other NH 10 at throwing stupid passes when it just isn't on.


I love watching him and he is superbly talented but he can sometimes lack judgement.
Agreed - but today he didn't and I have watched a few racing games and the only times he has has been when they are well ahead.  I think their coach beats him with a 4x2 every time he brainfarts. Maybe they can knock some sense into him.  One day he might even stop altogether.

Notice as well he no longer takes kickoffs or line kicks

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Presuming Ed on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:15 pm

TJ wrote:
Presuming Ed wrote:"If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns".


Against the Italian defence, of course they looked good. Ignorant comment



I would back Scotland to score tries against England.  I would back them to score tries against any team in the world - as they have done this last few years.  Russell is so much better than any other NH 10 at reading the game and putting players into space.  Problem against England is that Scotland have nothing to counter the power of england in the forwards and Tuilagi.  I very much doubt Scotland will beat england - but I bet they score several tries in getting beat.

To draw the conclusion that Scotland have "easily the most pleasing attacking rugny of the 6Ns" after one round where Scotland faced an under firing Italy is just plaun daft and ignorant. Whether or not Scotland run in several tries against England is another subject and you may well have a point. When England's backs got the ball in space I thought they looked pretty useful and more than capable of scoring several tries against any team in this 6N too.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Taylorman on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:16 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
ebop wrote:Well done England. When they had the ball they actually looked like they could spark something unlike Ireland and their boring wrap arounds and box kicks. Ireland were very underwhelming for a team that is hyped up so much.

They beat the All Blacks last time out, though.

I just hope England haven't given away too many of their tactics ahead of the rest of the 6N and the RWC.

Part of why they lost here. Picking the important matches is key to top three success. The ABs have that better than most, for you cant win them all in todays game. This was important to Ireland, and they were way under prepared for the English aggression. Jones out thought Schmidt by a mile here. England bullied Ireland out of the game. Not the first time tgats happened.

Important point well made. Both Eng and Ire targeted NZ in the autumn but Ireland looked better (and won) of the two; England clearly prepared more specific tactics for Ireland than vice versa and it proved the difference. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wales and Scotland cause England some trouble. Think England will batter France in a high scoring game for both teams, but there's no way England will be as prepared for any other team in the tournament than they were today. I'd hazard a guess and say that Gatland and Wales has done likewise with either Ireland or England, with both being home games - Townsend likewise. England now strong favourites for the title but it's not over - modern rugby dictates things are never that easy.

Getting the two Vs and Manus directness in midfield back was critical to this win though and on the two english performances vs NZ and Ireland, think they would have beaten NZ had those three been there. They all but did without them so from a personnel perspective England improved hugely on that basis alone here.  

Concerning for Ireland will be so many lacklustre performances from Murray, Sexton, Ryan, the back row and particularly the back three who were defensively poor on the England chips, Kearney woukdnt have made that much difference. Anyway, onwards. Poor match from a skills perspective, not a lot happening between the 22’s bar chips and box kicks. Abbraisive, but a lot of handling errors and little quality ball through the hands bar Farrells pass for the first try. The Murray Sexton pairing looked anything but world class. Rusty? Time will tell, but England do look to have that juggernaut look about them again. Clumsy, but effective.

Perhaps. I do think NZ left a few key tries out on the field that day - the one that springs to mind is Ardie Savea's drop but I'm fairly certain there were two other key 'misses' that would have changed the game. If England had to open up against NZ, rather than try to hold on to a win, then maybe NZ would have found the win easier to come by - maybe not, but I'd back the former scenario.

England didn't really have that situation today; Ireland dominated the second quarter in terms of possession and it was the best period for them, and were sort of in it up until the hour mark, but going for 3 points rather than the corner proved costly. They never really had another try scoring chance; England went on from there and scored a (dubious) third try, a penalty, and then a fourth try directly from a dominant rush defence that read Ireland like a book. Against NZ, Engand didn't score after the 20th minute (around then anyway) and barely threatened until Underhill's (unfortunate, but correctly) disallowed try. It was for the most part a rearguard action by England - here, although it was similar in some ways, England were far more comfortable, the kicking far more aggressive rather than territorial, the rush defence far more dominant. NZ also never looked clueless - Ireland looked beaten the moment Slade's try was awarded. You could see they knew they couldn't break England down: they couldn't go through them and, shattered, they didn't fancy their chances moving it wide either. As it proved with Slade's second.

You're right, the Pacific Island talent in England's team is vital. Tuilagi is so obviously vital to England's success and has been a big miss. I actually thought Aki played better today, albeit in a losing team, but that takes nothing away from Tuilagi. Vunipolas are a bit different in what they offer but also key. Think the way to play against them has to be to keep the ball in play, play at a tempo that the big boys will hate, and don't be afraid to turn the ball over a few times - that seemed to be Ireland's biggest fear, they barely tried anything for fear of isolation or getting driven back in the tackle (until too late, like Aki getting a hospital pass and getting hammered by Tuilagi).

If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns.

Yes scotland looked good early with some very good, slick backplay but like france wilted badly second half, but in this case had enough up. Those watching Scotlands last ten where Italy stormed back will gain confidence from that, cos if either their fitness or bench cant carry 80 vs Italy, how will they manage the next four matches? Dont know if it was a first selection but dropping off so poorly wont help their outlook.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Goosestepper on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:17 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Yoda wrote:It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

If I had another criticism of Garces is that he did let the breakdown be a bit of a free for all in some respects. Both teams generally played the breakdown well, but I think both teams got away with holding on to the ball past the time another ref would have blown up


Healy's try was clear as day buddy right in front of the ref. Forward pass for the third try clear as day also.

England deserved to win but please don't go on that you were hard done by the ref
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/refereeing-howler-the-talking-point-after-ireland-defeat-405386

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by lostinwales on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:20 pm

Presuming Ed wrote:
TJ wrote:
Presuming Ed wrote:"If Scotland front up against England (almost impossible) they could take them apart as they have some beautiful running lines, easily the most pleasing attacking rugby of the 6Ns".


Against the Italian defence, of course they looked good. Ignorant comment



I would back Scotland to score tries against England.  I would back them to score tries against any team in the world - as they have done this last few years.  Russell is so much better than any other NH 10 at reading the game and putting players into space.  Problem against England is that Scotland have nothing to counter the power of england in the forwards and Tuilagi.  I very much doubt Scotland will beat england - but I bet they score several tries in getting beat.

To draw the conclusion that Scotland have "easily the most pleasing attacking rugny of the 6Ns" after one round where Scotland faced an under firing Italy is just plaun daft and ignorant. Whether or not Scotland run in several tries against England is another subject and you may well have a point. When England's backs got the ball in space I thought they looked pretty useful and more than capable of scoring several tries against any team in this 6N too.

There were enough individual moments of creativity and brilliance from the England backs to make the other teams sit up and take notice, even if the win was on the back of that monumental offensive defence.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Presuming Ed on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:21 pm

[quote="Goosestepper"]
lostinwales wrote:
Yoda wrote:It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

If I had another criticism of Garces is that he did let the breakdown be a bit of a free for all in some respects. Both teams generally played the breakdown well, but I think both teams got away with holding on to the ball past the time another ref would have blown up


Healy's try was clear as day buddy right in front of the ref. Forward pass for the third try clear as day also.

England deserved to win but please don't go on that you were hard done by the ref
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/refereeing-howler-the-talking-point-after-ireland-defeat-405386
[/quot

The blatant knock on before Ireland's try and disallowing Manu's try were the only 2 howlers in this game bud.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Duty281 on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:22 pm

Goosestepper wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Yoda wrote:It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

If I had another criticism of Garces is that he did let the breakdown be a bit of a free for all in some respects. Both teams generally played the breakdown well, but I think both teams got away with holding on to the ball past the time another ref would have blown up


Healy's try was clear as day buddy right in front of the ref. Forward pass for the third try clear as day also.

England deserved to win but please don't go on that you were hard done by the ref
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/refereeing-howler-the-talking-point-after-ireland-defeat-405386

It clearly went backwards out of the hands, meaning that it was/is a legitimate try.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:31 pm

Taylorman wrote:Yes scotland looked good early with some very good, slick backplay but like france wilted badly second half, but in this case had enough up. Those watching Scotlands last ten where Italy stormed back will gain confidence from that, cos if either their fitness or bench cant carry 80 vs Italy, how will they manage the next four matches? Dont know if it was a first selection but dropping off so poorly wont help their outlook.

Yeah, I think this has to be looked at in context. Scotland got the 4 try bonus and then let off the gas - having 'achieved' what, presumably, was spoken about in the week as the target, they switched off mentally (yay, we've done it) and dropped the intensity that let Italy back into it. You can do all the sports psychology you like, but if you're 30 odd points ahead against Italy, it's presumably an easily done thing/quite hard to keep standards across the board - particularly when, and I don't like the idea of this but it must enter the equation somewhat, you don't want to get injured in what is now effectively a 'done deal'.

Not saying that's the sole issue - Scotland have issues, definitely, particularly with physicality and tactical flexibility - but I'm not basing Scotland's threat on this week alone, nor reading too much into the last 20 minutes of the test today.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:32 pm

Presuming Ed wrote:To draw the conclusion that Scotland have "easily the most pleasing attacking rugny of the 6Ns" after one round -

I'm going to stop you there and re-read my comment. Obviously not just this round. Have you watched rugby before this weekend?

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:34 pm

BamBam wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
BamBam wrote:Definitely wasn't expecting that! Can't remember the last time we looked that strong against Ireland, thanks to the Irish fans for their sporting comments.

For us, the Itoje injury is a bit of a worry, and we need to make sure we continue in this form. We won the first two comprehensively last year then fell apart, just want to see this kind of physicality and clinical attack continue for the rest of the year!

Too bad there’s no sporting comments from England fans though. The England team were very good today. Try for May and MOTM for Mako, both in my fantasy team.

Wales for the grand slam?

Can someone give mikey some attention, he's trying oh so hard to get some

Thanks for giving me some unwanted attention, doesn’t change the fact that a lot of you are poor sports (like your coach). Luckily I watched it with an honest and sporting Englishman (unlike you) - along with my aunt, uncle, a kiwi (my boss), and some Canadians.

You won’t be getting such an easy time in Cardiff either Wink.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by mikey_dragon on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Goosestepper wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Yoda wrote:It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

If I had another criticism of Garces is that he did let the breakdown be a bit of a free for all in some respects. Both teams generally played the breakdown well, but I think both teams got away with holding on to the ball past the time another ref would have blown up


Healy's try was clear as day buddy right in front of the ref. Forward pass for the third try clear as day also.

England deserved to win but please don't go on that you were hard done by the ref
https://www.balls.ie/rugby/refereeing-howler-the-talking-point-after-ireland-defeat-405386

It clearly went backwards out of the hands, meaning that it was/is a legitimate try.

I thought Slade was definitely in front of May when he kicked it though. Pretty marginal I guess, with England being on the right end of the decision.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Goosestepper on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:43 pm

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=294248&league=180659

If you didn't know the score and looked at the stats you'd think Ireland came out winners....

English players were very hungry today but credit to the coaching team

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:45 pm

It's a good job Ireland were solidly beaten after Slade's first try, on the scoreboard and in general play. The try shouldn't have been allowed because of the forward pass, and whilst Irish fans can rightly say it was a turning point, they showed nothing to suggest they would have won the game had it not been given.

Had Ireland got a try after to make it 20-24 and lost the game by such a margin, there's justification for being livid. But fortunately it didn't decide the game.

Still, worrying inconsistency/use of TMO and video over the weekend. The French broadcaster deliberately doesn't show the 'hit' on Liam Williams that split his head and forced him from the field of play; today, the referee asks not to be shown a ball travelling forward to avoid inciting the crowd. I prefer the latter scenario, as it's the referee backing his call rather than a TV director having an input, but surely surely surely you should check the pass. Surely!?

It's forward. Irrespective of hands (which don't look like they're facing backwards to me) it travels 2+ yards forward. That's before considering the kick which, although marginal, looked offside to me - May's outstretched leg made it close, but Slade is ahead of May and it looks like if you had the kind of graphics and cameras they have in football that would track it dead across the line, at least part of his upper body would be ahead of the ball.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by miaow on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:47 pm

Goosestepper wrote:http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats?gameId=294248&league=180659

If you didn't know the score and looked at the stats you'd think Ireland came out winners....

English players were very hungry today but credit to the coaching team

That's what I was thinking throughtout the game. The missed tackle stats were incredible, yet Ireland barely made headway for the last 40 minutes and never really cut England open.

It's why I think Ireland shouldn't be too down hearted - they definitely could have won the game in the last 20 minutes had a few things gone their way, and if they'd adapted to the opposition - and England perhaps shouldn't get carried away either.

A good, well fought game of rugby overall, but the kicking game was crucial in allowing England's physical dominance to decide the result (as Ireland didn't respond).

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by robbo277 on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:48 pm

One thing I'd question is how important that bonus point might be - the first try bonus point scored away from home in the Six Nations against a side other than Italy.

If England can win their 3 home games and get a losing bonus point in Wales, I think the only thing that can stop us winning the Championship would be a Welsh Grand Slam. That would give us 18 points, 19 if we get a try bonus against Italy as well.

Wales, in this scenario, could be on 9 points by the end of this week and then 13 if they beat England. Slipping up and losing one of their last two would open the door for England if England win their home games, as a win and a losing bonus point would leave them stuck on 18. They'd therefore need to pick up a bonus point in Edinburgh or home to Ireland.

Ireland can win their last 4 games to challenge, but it would be difficult for them to get to 19 points from here. They'll get 5 vs Italy and could get 5 at home against France, but they'd then need another 5 in Edinburgh or Cardiff.

Scotland will need to win one of their away games and then their two home games against Ireland and Wales. I can't see them winning 4 games this tournament, and even if they did they'll now need a couple of bonus points as well, unless England slip twice.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by Duty281 on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:51 pm

It's not 'irrespective of hands' though, as that is how a forward pass is decided. And it's clearly backwards out of the hands, meaning the try is legitimate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg

The offside was 50-50, of course not helped by the fact the camera angle wasn't perfectly straight.


Last edited by Duty281 on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by El Radar on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:53 pm

Goosestepper wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Yoda wrote:It just shows that 1. Having a balanced backrow helps massively- thought curry was brilliant at slowing ball down etc and Wilson was so aggressive. 2. A bit of quality time training instead of beasting players mean they have full tanks and can keep playing for 80. 3. Mako is some player he made me feel tired watching him. 4. The ref was good and had a great feel for the game (I can live with the two decisions about makos non try and healys try).

If I had another criticism of Garces is that he did let the breakdown be a bit of a free for all in some respects. Both teams generally played the breakdown well, but I think both teams got away with holding on to the ball past the time another ref would have blown up


Healy's try was clear as day buddy right in front of the ref. Forward pass for the third try clear as day also.

That isn't how the forward pass law works, Slades hands go back not forward so whether the ball itself travels forward is irrelevant.

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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

Post by TightHEAD on Sat 02 Feb 2019, 9:53 pm

What a performance what a game.

So happy as I really didn’t see that coming.

Uncle Eddie was winding everyone up last year.
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Re: 6 Nations - Ireland v England (Part 2)

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