6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

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6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by George Carlin on Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:42 am

First topic message reminder :

      
SCOTLAND IRELAND 
9 February 2019
KO: 14:15
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: Pascal Gaüzère (France) and Alexandre Ruiz (France)
Television match official: Rowan Kitt (England)

Live on [paddy TV and jock TV]

A. Head to Head

134 Played 134
67 Won 62
6 Drawn 6
62 Lost 67
1,415 Points 1,525

B. Recent Form

10 March 2018
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28–8 to Ireland

4 February 2017
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
27–22 to Scotland

19 March 2016
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
35 – 25 to Ireland

15 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 22 to Ireland

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

SCOTLAND


[TBC]

IRELAND 


[TBC]
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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by George Carlin on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:39 am

rodders wrote:
miaow wrote:Just briefly on Best: do no Irish posters have an issue with his lineout throwing?

Honestly I'd like it to be better, especially on the big pressure throws but I do think it gets overblown, statistically his accuracy is actually pretty good and often does go long periods were he is consistently hitting his man.

I do think apart from Guirado, George and Owens he's the best hooker in the championship, and not that far of those 3.
Best's wolverine-like, teflon longevity cannot last forever. At 58 or so, he will need to seriously think about retirement.
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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:19 am

Seems he will retire from International rugby after the WC but seriously considering continuing for Ulster for 19-20

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:36 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Seems he will retire from International rugby after the WC but seriously considering continuing for Ulster for 19-20

If his body is up for it and it seems to be then why not. What I really hope doesn't happen is that he picks up an ugly injury and misses the world cup and the injury retires him ala David Wallace etc.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by The Great Aukster on Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:38 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
miaow wrote:He definitely does have a problem though. Particularly under pressure. The better/best (no pun intended...) open play hookers are often average throwers - they're in there because they offer something in the loose. Hibbard, for instance, scrummaging and tackling. Marx, rucking and running. So maybe, generally speaking, throwing as a whole isn't as good as it was (something to look into but cba) but Best does bottle it on the big pressure throws. It's happened for far too many years to be incidental. Happened against England this 6Ns.

I dont see it. Any numbers to back that up?

It is weirdly gratifying that other teams think he has a problem as they try to attack the Ireland throw often when they shouldn't. For example in the England game, Ireland lost one lineout against two by England. The one they did lose was called 'not straight' by Garces yet Ryan actually caught the ball on the England side!
Against Scotland Best was 100% against three lost by McInally.

Best was pilloried for losing the Lions game against the Blues, when he was only off the bench and had a timing issue with Itoje, yet Owens also had a crooked throw in that game. That one throw is always remembered yet Owens one is completely forgotten.
It will be interesting to see what Miaow brings up to support the statement that Best "definitely does have a problem".

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:47 pm

Exactly my point. Ireland's lineout stats are excellent in the last couple of years despite a fair bit of rotation in second row. Id say they match up very favourably vs all of the top 10 sides in world rugby.

It is therefore funny when you hear people peddle the myth that Best has a poor throw. It was for this reason that plenty of people favoured George over Best for the Lions tests. Yet at key times George on that tour in the tests missed some pretty important throws himself.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by rodders on Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:53 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Seems he will retire from International rugby after the WC but seriously considering continuing for Ulster for 19-20

Was hoping this might happen, this would be great for Ulster, Best and Ireland and he looks well capable of it.
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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:05 pm

rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Seems he will retire from International rugby after the WC but seriously considering continuing for Ulster for 19-20

Was hoping this might happen, this would be great for Ulster, Best and Ireland and he looks well capable of it.  

I am like you also 38, do you ever look at Best and think is he really only 36?

He looks about five years older than me, I think.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by miaow on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:06 pm

Yes but the lineout Best lost nearly led to 7 points conceded. He initially took the lineout quickly over the top - it was called back, he messed up the throw, and England got over the tryline not long after. Instead of 7 points it was 3 conceded from a penalty kick.

This is why he has a reputation. Because it's based in reality.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by miaow on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:11 pm

https://youtu.be/U3dZ7nMA2EU?t=3014 - The start of the missed lineout.

https://youtu.be/U3dZ7nMA2EU?t=3190 - The 'try'

https://youtu.be/U3dZ7nMA2EU?t=3403 - The points


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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:12 pm

miaow wrote:Yes but the lineout Best lost nearly led to 7 points conceded. He initially took the lineout quickly over the top - it was called back, he messed up the throw, and England got over the tryline not long after. Instead of 7 points it was 3 conceded from a penalty kick.

This is why he has a reputation. Because it's based in reality.

Unlike your post which is based on conjecture.... "nearly led to 7 points conceded". Lol.

Every hooker has a highlights reel of missed throws. Do a meaningful assessment of the overall number of missed throws by Best vs his rivals.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by miaow on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:16 pm

Haha. That is literally true. It could easily have led to a minimum of 5 points, almost certainly converted to 7, because they got over the tryline. Had Mako not gone for the secondary drive (marginal, if arguably the correct call) you'd still say England were in prime position to score just afterwards.

However, trying to suggest that a crooked lineout throw is somehow not that bad because 'Ryan actually caught the ball on the England side' (censored censored Whistle Whistle Erm Erm) is the kind of argument that means this discussion isn't going to end well...

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:43 pm

So much to consider in this. Tom youngs was regularly derided for his lineout s however his stats were good. He did that through safety first throws a lot of the time something I wouldn't consider best requires to do. Then again I agent seen a breakdown of his throw over an extended period.
A mistake is a mistake though. The technicalities of a underthrow is the same whether it results in a try against, a knock on or throwing the opposition into a spin and ending with an 80 metre try of your own.
There's obviously a helluva lot that can go wrong with a lineout which isn't the hookers fault. Carry rarely here someone berating a lifter for being late to the party though.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by rodders on Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:17 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Seems he will retire from International rugby after the WC but seriously considering continuing for Ulster for 19-20

Was hoping this might happen, this would be great for Ulster, Best and Ireland and he looks well capable of it.  

I am like you also 38, do you ever look at Best and think is he really only 36?

He looks about five years older than me, I think.

I'd say 10 actually Smile
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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:05 pm

rodders wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
rodders wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Seems he will retire from International rugby after the WC but seriously considering continuing for Ulster for 19-20

Was hoping this might happen, this would be great for Ulster, Best and Ireland and he looks well capable of it.  

I am like you also 38, do you ever look at Best and think is he really only 36?

He looks about five years older than me, I think.

I'd say 10 actually Smile

Lucky you, maybe I need to moisturise more often or get rid of the beard.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:26 pm

Line outs stats from Ireland - England game

Ireland 10 won 1 lost
England 8 won 2 lost

I'll include the 2nd weekend for completeness
Ireland won 11 lost 0
England won 10 lost 2

Annoying thing about stats when they don't match your pre conceptions

Englands search for a lineout thrower as reliable as Best continues..... laughing

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by miaow on Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:53 pm

Not the point

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:08 pm

The point you made was he clearly has problems throwing. You backed that up with one example. At least Geoff is giving a broader spread of successful throws versus misses.

Im not convinced you have enough ammo in your peashooter to convince me that he is any worse than any of the other top hookers out there.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:03 pm

miaow wrote:Not the point

It is the exactly the point.

How many of the 4 unsuccessful England lineouts, potentially, coughed up points or led to points conceded ?

Your point was his weak throwing when the stats show that Ireland have had a far more successful lineout than England


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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by miaow on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:08 pm

Perhaps not. As I said, the days of having reliable hookers at the lineout seem to be a thing of the recent past. Not many stand out in that regard - perhaps the way the game's gone in the loose and the attributes people value, but also perhaps a sign of how complex the set piece is at times.

But Best does have a problem with his throwing at times - it's why he's never been considered top drawer. Gatland left him out of the Lions in 2013 and again in 2017 before Hartley was suspended, despite his excellent ability in the loose. As an ex hooker there's clearly something about him he doesn't rate - and then, shorn of the stability he gets at club and test environments, he showed why there are question marks over his throwing and you could visibly see the pressure he was under and how he was unable to turn things around. You saw that again againts England after the quick throw was called back - clearly a tactic to get in-and-out without pressure.

The stats, and Devin Toner and Joe Schmidt etc., mask that flakiness. But it is real. It's a weird thing to deny as an Irish fan - what's important for Ireland is whether that can be offset/minimised, and by and large it appears to be. But it reared its head again against England at a crucial moment. No doubt. That's why I asked the question.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Cyril on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:14 pm

Best is known for a number of high-profile clangers rather than being consistently poor in the line-out. It might be unfair, but he’s got a reputation for it.

More importantly, his usual gentle (sad eyes peeping out from under his scrum cap) relationship with the refs isn’t quite what he was. Poite in particular got annoyed with him very quickly in the Scotland game.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by geoff999rugby on Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:51 pm

I am not saying Best is a great thrower but what I don't except is that the likes of George, Cowan-Dickie, McNally are any better
In fact in some cases worse.
Reputations aren't facts - a player does something and in many spectators eyes that incident gets fixed in their mind as a permanent condition - unfortunately it is usually wrong
Teams defend lineouts better now than before so you will get more losses at the highest level
Gatland has opinion fair enough, we all have one of those - the outrageously high number of Welshman in one of those Lions tours makes me question his.
Best is picked as captain precisely because Schmidt rates him highly as a captain and it has been very successful in recent years- are you saying Schmidt has got it wrong ?
He has captained Ireland more times than any other player except BOD
Poite gets annoyed with any players who talks to him - one of his major failings, that and not bothering to apply the rules to the scrum.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Cyril on Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:13 pm

Geoff, it has to be said that Best hasn’t had a lot of completion for his position with Ireland for the past decade.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by miaow on Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:27 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Gatland has opinion fair enough, we all have one of those - the outrageously high number of Welshman in one of those Lions tours makes me question his.

Oh right, yeah, that's fair enough then. Gatland has his opinions but some guy called Geoff on the internet disagrees. Swings and roundabouts really. 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Whoooosh.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by robbo277 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:11 pm

Lineouts are difficult to judge on stats. You can judge the overall effectiveness of a lineout by won/loss stats, but it's harder to judge the individual constituent parts on it.

E.g. Australia kept going into tests with 2 locks who jumped and no jumping back row and they kept getting picked off. Obviously this was a selection issue. Retallick kept picking England off in the Autumn, but I think that was down to the calling as much as it was down to Jamie George's throwing. Or at least 50/50 between them.

Then we've got the fact that an overthrown lineout may be won by someone standing at the back. We've also got the quality of the ball you get off the lineout. If the jumper has to lean too far and takes the ball but falls to the floor, then that's a lineout won but also not great lineout ball.

Basically it's not a debate you'll ever bottom out without reviewing a large sample of Best's throws. And then I guess a large sample of throws from other hookers.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:45 pm

miaow wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Gatland has opinion fair enough, we all have one of those - the outrageously high number of Welshman in one of those Lions tours makes me question his.

Oh right, yeah, that's fair enough then. Gatland has his opinions but some guy called Geoff on the internet disagrees. Swings and roundabouts really. 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

Whoooosh.

Gatland coach of Wales, chip on his shoulder re Ireland has his opinions alright. Who cares what he thinks. He thought it would be a good idea to shoe horn a load of 2nd rate Welsh players in at late notice on the last Lions tour and thought no one would notice.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by miaow on Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:02 pm




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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Cyril on Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:39 pm

Love that photo of Read and Warbs.

‘Yeeeah, we drew!’

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by BamBam on Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:55 pm

Who deleted my post? Is it not acceptable to call AWJ second rate any more? Can I not call any other players second rate or does he have some sort of special status?

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by majesticimperialman on Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:04 pm

BamBam wrote:Who deleted my post? Is it not acceptable to call AWJ second rate any more? Can I not call any other players second rate or does he have some sort of special status?

Some sort of special status? Are you kidding? he is a god in Wales, you will get lynched saying that.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by theslosty on Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:17 pm

I don't think Best's throwing is actually too bad and the flakiness perception is a bit overdone. However, his selection adds to this idea that Toner is a must pick. Now I like Toner but it means leaving it out Ulster's talisman, Henderson, and probably the best club player in Ireland if not Europe over the last 2 years, Tadhg Beirne.

Having said that I'd still want a trio of Best, Ryan and Hendo/Beirne. As long as (imo) the best lineout backrow in the world in POM is there. One 6N our lineout struggled was in 2017 when we picked Best, Hendo, Toner, and CJ at 6. For the last game vs England Toner is dropped for Donnacha Ryan and Heaslip is a late withdrawal, forcing Schmidt to finally select POM.

We win the game and prevent an English slam. Lineout was 100%. We score a try from the maul through Hendo. POM gets MOTM and captains the Lions soon after.

Now we don't have Donnacha Ryan available to run the lineout a bit annoyingly but Best, Hendo, J Ryan and POM ran an excellent lineout in the win at Twickers last year. Essentially Toner is valuable but not vital.
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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:14 am

Personally I think Toner is a better lock that POM is a backrow forward. For some reason one gets all the plaudits even when having a day off and the other tends to be quite under rated. The follow on from your story is that POM did captain the Lions but put in quite a poor performance in which the NZ pack totally out muscled the Lions pack and he got dropped for the rest of the tour.

Tadgh Beirne will have his moment. Id be tempted to start him at 6 ahead of O'Mahony. More physical all over the pitch and also good in the lineout. Physicality of our backrow forwards has been what we have been lacking so far in the 6 nations.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by rodders on Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:42 am

Toner, Best apart, is by far Ireland's most underrated player.

I think it's because he doesn't really look physically imposing and do as much eye catching work as some of his competition.His lineout work obviously gets noted but he's also a pretty effective ball carrier and gets through a lot of work.

If you look at the AB's game last November he was the best lock on the pitch and he was badly missed against England.

Hendo is top class when fit but one thing he lacks compared to Toner is consistency, in terms of what he does over 80 min and over the course of a season  -in part due to injury - for certain games he undoubtedly brings more but I can see why Toner would be preferred to start over him alongside Ryan.

Beirne is consistently excellent at the parts of the game he excels at but is s different type of player and competing more with Ryan than Toner.
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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:50 am

Exactly,Toner smashing Retallick back in the tackle in November was one of the moments of 2018.

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by George Carlin on Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:30 am

Jaysus lads - the match was a week ago. Haven't you got homes to go to?

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:32 am

Did you not know that Irish people never shut up?

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Re: 6N 2019: Scotland v Ireland, 9 February

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