6N 2019: Italy v Ireland, Round 3, 23 February

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 09 Feb 2019, 8:29 pm

First topic message reminder :

So who gets to play in this one? Who needs a rest?

Sexton has joined the injured list, but Schmidt says he should have recovered from his HIA in time. But is this the match where Schmidt wants to give Carbery a proper start, and possibly have Carty on the bench? POM looked in fine fettle but could he benefit from a couple of weeks off for his rib injury?

On the basis of the Scotland match, the depth held up fairly well with the likes of Kilcoyne coming through stronger and taking the place of Jack McGrath, and Roux and Dillane holding their ends up at scrum, lineout and in the loose. Conan got through a lot of tackles 18 and missed 1. And Chris Farrell got another full 80 minutes without mishap.

As ever, Schmidt won’t go too far in making too many changes, and he’ll want to come away from Rome with 5 points to keep them in the hunt if it goes down to the wire on the final weekend.

He might have Tadgh Beirne or Iain Henderson back for this one, and possibly Kieran Marmion with Munster v Kings, Ospreys v Ulster and Connacht v Cheetahs next weekend to give them some game time if necessary.

Henshaw just had a dead leg, so he should be good to go. Not sure abut Ringrose and his hamstring.

Will Addison is another who needs to be seen although a starting spot may be out of reach.

Who would you have in your 23 allowing for some of the above injured being passed fit to play?

I’ve gone for provincial partnerships where possible in my selection:

McGrath, Best, Porter
Henderson, Roux
SOB, Ruddock/Murphy, Conan
Murray, Carbery
Henshaw, Farrell
Larmour, Stockdale, Kearney

Reps: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Ryan, Ruddock/Murphy, Dillane, Marmion, Carty, Addison

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 6:02 pm

But the cracks and lack of a plan B evident in the ABs set up dont count? All teams in world rugby at the moment have their set backs. Irelands are smaller than everyone elses given we still have only two losses in two years. Even Wales have 2 loses have lost twice since the start of 2018.

Come back to me when Ireland have racked up the number of losses that the rugby championship sides below NZ have accumulated.

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Post by Taylorman on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 8:41 pm

Nope, they all count, and luckily it took 24 years between cups to learn how to manage those cracks, something we had before both the last wins.

Don't think Ireland's is small. As we keep hearing the last two years means nothing. Ever heard the term 'peaking between WCups' - feels odd when it applies to your own team huh? We hear that a lot too.

Theres a real issue at 9 and 10, in fact a bizarre one, as though somethings untold in that area. chin chin Time will tell.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 10:58 pm

There is nothing bizarre about two players out of form because of lack of game time. Murray was genuinely injured, he's genuinely lost muscle mass, he genuinely knows it'll take time for him to fully get back to something approaching his best form. Maybe that'll take as long as the WC itself. Now Joe Schmidt and Irish medics aren't dumb, but yet Murray has still been played in a not Easy 6N competition with a few very high ranked sides.
Sexton too is obviously not match sharp and loos a frustrated figure out there but Schmidt still plays him.
Add to those two issues (very uncharacteristic of Schmidt to play either if not up to full competitive speed) the fact that Schmidt himself admitted that he might be at fault partially for the English loss because he didn't have his players involved in full contact training in advance of the game and the strong possibility is that Schmidt never intended forcing Ireland to fully defend their title. He certainly knew coming ill prepared with a very iffy set of 9 and 10 players was never going to be enough to hold out against this England side. So despite his protestations that he's not sure what's wrong, he knows full well he's choosing off colour players and not being as intense in training as he might have been.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 11:08 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:So, I wonder will Schmidt bring ROG in as backs coach for the world cup. He should be free.

Interesting with ROG making a pitch for saders head coach last night, or, backs coach for the ABs if Razor gets the head nod. hmmm.

And Im assuming he'll fulfill his Crusaders role given its  a gimme theyll be finalists looking at this years squad. He'd have time after that to have sufficient input into the Irish backline having spent two seasons with the Saders...

Whew...good luck with that transition...

He didn't make a pitch for saders head coach. He was asked if he would be interested and he actually said that he would be asking questions as to why Razor wasn't bringing him with him to the ABs, which suggests to me he isn't too interested in being head coach of the Crusaders.

I suggest bringing ROG into the Ireland set up because there looks to be a bit of a shortage of confidence. One of the things that ROG has spoken a lot about here in interviews is the positivity that there is in the Crusaders camp which is largely down to Razor. Some of that positivity would be welcomed in the Irish camp.


I wouldn't be interested in Rog as back coach at all at this stage. Too late in the day to bring him.

Agree fully. The wc could be a disaster and he is better off not being associated with the current set up.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 11:18 pm

Sure you might as well not get out of bed in the morning if thats the attitude.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 11:24 pm

Good point considering the time difference. Could be a problem.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 11:42 pm

much ado about nothing. Sexton and Murray will be fine.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 11:57 pm

Anyway, so that's the Italy game. In a way it's funny how a lot more needed to be said about it after it happened than was ever said about it before it happened.

On to France: 34 - 10 - the next 'easy' game on the list.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 3:21 am

SecretFly wrote:There is nothing bizarre about two players out of form because of lack of game time.  Murray was genuinely injured, he's genuinely lost muscle mass, he genuinely knows it'll take time for him to fully get back to something approaching his best form.  Maybe that'll take as long as the WC itself.  Now Joe Schmidt and Irish medics aren't dumb, but yet Murray has still been played in a not Easy 6N competition with a few very high ranked sides.
Sexton too is obviously not match sharp and loos a frustrated figure out there but Schmidt still plays him.
Add to those two issues (very uncharacteristic of Schmidt to play either if not up to full competitive speed) the fact that Schmidt himself admitted that he might be at fault partially for the English loss because he didn't have his players involved in full contact training in advance of the game and the strong possibility is that Schmidt never intended forcing Ireland to fully defend their title.  He certainly knew coming ill prepared with a very iffy set of 9 and 10 players was never going to be enough to hold out against this England side.  So despite his protestations that he's not sure what's wrong, he knows full well he's choosing off colour players and not being as intense in training as he might have been.

Fair call, what was the genuine injury? I genuinely would like to know. thumbsup

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 3:25 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:So, I wonder will Schmidt bring ROG in as backs coach for the world cup. He should be free.

Interesting with ROG making a pitch for saders head coach last night, or, backs coach for the ABs if Razor gets the head nod. hmmm.

And Im assuming he'll fulfill his Crusaders role given its  a gimme theyll be finalists looking at this years squad. He'd have time after that to have sufficient input into the Irish backline having spent two seasons with the Saders...

Whew...good luck with that transition...

He didn't make a pitch for saders head coach. He was asked if he would be interested and he actually said that he would be asking questions as to why Razor wasn't bringing him with him to the ABs, which suggests to me he isn't too interested in being head coach of the Crusaders.

I suggest bringing ROG into the Ireland set up because there looks to be a bit of a shortage of confidence. One of the things that ROG has spoken a lot about here in interviews is the positivity that there is in the Crusaders camp which is largely down to Razor. Some of that positivity would be welcomed in the Irish camp.


I wouldn't be interested in Rog as back coach at all at this stage. Too late in the day to bring him.

Agree fully. The wc could be a disaster and he is better off not being associated with the current set up.

Yep as a Crusader he wouldnt know whether he was Arthur or Martha, or which way to ride his horse. Laugh

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Post by maestegmafia on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 3:25 am

Taylorman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:There is nothing bizarre about two players out of form because of lack of game time.  Murray was genuinely injured, he's genuinely lost muscle mass, he genuinely knows it'll take time for him to fully get back to something approaching his best form.  Maybe that'll take as long as the WC itself.  Now Joe Schmidt and Irish medics aren't dumb, but yet Murray has still been played in a not Easy 6N competition with a few very high ranked sides.
Sexton too is obviously not match sharp and loos a frustrated figure out there but Schmidt still plays him.
Add to those two issues (very uncharacteristic of Schmidt to play either if not up to full competitive speed) the fact that Schmidt himself admitted that he might be at fault partially for the English loss because he didn't have his players involved in full contact training in advance of the game and the strong possibility is that Schmidt never intended forcing Ireland to fully defend their title.  He certainly knew coming ill prepared with a very iffy set of 9 and 10 players was never going to be enough to hold out against this England side.  So despite his protestations that he's not sure what's wrong, he knows full well he's choosing off colour players and not being as intense in training as he might have been.

Fair call, what was the genuine injury? I genuinely would like to know. thumbsup

Neck injury on the summer tour

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/conor-murray-is-not-required-to-disclose-nature-of-neck-injury-1.3640167

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Post by maestegmafia on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 3:29 am

SecretFly wrote:There is nothing bizarre about two players out of form because of lack of game time.  Murray was genuinely injured, he's genuinely lost muscle mass, he genuinely knows it'll take time for him to fully get back to something approaching his best form.  Maybe that'll take as long as the WC itself.  Now Joe Schmidt and Irish medics aren't dumb, but yet Murray has still been played in a not Easy 6N competition with a few very high ranked sides.
Sexton too is obviously not match sharp and loos a frustrated figure out there but Schmidt still plays him.
Add to those two issues (very uncharacteristic of Schmidt to play either if not up to full competitive speed) the fact that Schmidt himself admitted that he might be at fault partially for the English loss because he didn't have his players involved in full contact training in advance of the game and the strong possibility is that Schmidt never intended forcing Ireland to fully defend their title.  He certainly knew coming ill prepared with a very iffy set of 9 and 10 players was never going to be enough to hold out against this England side.  So despite his protestations that he's not sure what's wrong, he knows full well he's choosing off colour players and not being as intense in training as he might have been.

Fly I don’t think anyone really knew how this england team were going to be. They got a great start and Ireland were a bit shell shocked, I don’t disagree that lack of gametime and contact training weren’t factors but I think we all underestimated how good they could be with the bit in their teeth. Certainly didn’t think bonus point in Dublin good, after the autumn I wouldn’t expect any team to get that result.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 8:29 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:There is nothing bizarre about two players out of form because of lack of game time.  Murray was genuinely injured, he's genuinely lost muscle mass, he genuinely knows it'll take time for him to fully get back to something approaching his best form.  Maybe that'll take as long as the WC itself.  Now Joe Schmidt and Irish medics aren't dumb, but yet Murray has still been played in a not Easy 6N competition with a few very high ranked sides.
Sexton too is obviously not match sharp and loos a frustrated figure out there but Schmidt still plays him.
Add to those two issues (very uncharacteristic of Schmidt to play either if not up to full competitive speed) the fact that Schmidt himself admitted that he might be at fault partially for the English loss because he didn't have his players involved in full contact training in advance of the game and the strong possibility is that Schmidt never intended forcing Ireland to fully defend their title.  He certainly knew coming ill prepared with a very iffy set of 9 and 10 players was never going to be enough to hold out against this England side.  So despite his protestations that he's not sure what's wrong, he knows full well he's choosing off colour players and not being as intense in training as he might have been.

Fair call, what was the genuine injury? I genuinely would like to know. thumbsup

Neck injury on the summer tour

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/conor-murray-is-not-required-to-disclose-nature-of-neck-injury-1.3640167

Cool, thanks Maes, thats the most interesting thing Ive read on rugby for a while. Good points made too. Can understand that the public might be suspicious with this sort of thing initially but over time theyll get used to it. All for player protection. thumbsup

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 9:38 am

If Ireland don't show the full physical grunt of their better selves in at least one of the two remaining games then I'll eat my bowler hat!

Thank Christ I don't own one..................

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Post by rodders on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 10:34 am

Taylorman wrote:
Hmm, world cup year and the cracks are appearing... again. As we predicted. Whistle

Actually in the the 6N proceeding the last few RWCs Ireland have performed very well. In 2015 we won the title on points, in 2011 it wasn't great but finished by giving a GS chasing England a bit of a hiding in Dublin, in 2007 we had a triple crown and lost the title by a whisker.

On all those occasions we failed to reach our potential in the RWC, with our 6N form seemingly evaporating in the warm ups.

Based on that our lethargic form now could bode well for the Autumn that we have learnt from past failures....
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 12:14 pm

Siteanly Rodders! It's the fake news story if the century. Ireland A will play Ireland B in the WC final. Well played Joe.

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Post by Sin é on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 4:03 pm

Taylorman wrote:
SecretFly wrote:There is nothing bizarre about two players out of form because of lack of game time.  Murray was genuinely injured, he's genuinely lost muscle mass, he genuinely knows it'll take time for him to fully get back to something approaching his best form.  Maybe that'll take as long as the WC itself.  Now Joe Schmidt and Irish medics aren't dumb, but yet Murray has still been played in a not Easy 6N competition with a few very high ranked sides.
Sexton too is obviously not match sharp and loos a frustrated figure out there but Schmidt still plays him.
Add to those two issues (very uncharacteristic of Schmidt to play either if not up to full competitive speed) the fact that Schmidt himself admitted that he might be at fault partially for the English loss because he didn't have his players involved in full contact training in advance of the game and the strong possibility is that Schmidt never intended forcing Ireland to fully defend their title.  He certainly knew coming ill prepared with a very iffy set of 9 and 10 players was never going to be enough to hold out against this England side.  So despite his protestations that he's not sure what's wrong, he knows full well he's choosing off colour players and not being as intense in training as he might have been.

Fair call, what was the genuine injury? I genuinely would like to know. thumbsup

Updated info on the nature of his injury from interview last week.
-----
''I hiccupped in the car. That’s the way it can happen; a sneeze, a hiccup or any sudden movement. Getting hit with cold water in the shower, something like that. Two days later I was in pain and spasm. The disc had bulged to the point that it was on the nerve. Horrible pain. I didn’t sleep for three days.

He added that there are still lingering strength issues but no pain: “The strength in my pec and triceps was the main thing. That could take a long time to come back, like a year, but in terms of rugby and passing it’s all sweet.”
-----

https://www.balls.ie/rugby/conor-murray-injury-5-406322
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Post by Sin é on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 4:05 pm

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Sin é wrote:So, I wonder will Schmidt bring ROG in as backs coach for the world cup. He should be free.

Interesting with ROG making a pitch for saders head coach last night, or, backs coach for the ABs if Razor gets the head nod. hmmm.

And Im assuming he'll fulfill his Crusaders role given its  a gimme theyll be finalists looking at this years squad. He'd have time after that to have sufficient input into the Irish backline having spent two seasons with the Saders...

Whew...good luck with that transition...

He didn't make a pitch for saders head coach. He was asked if he would be interested and he actually said that he would be asking questions as to why Razor wasn't bringing him with him to the ABs, which suggests to me he isn't too interested in being head coach of the Crusaders.

I suggest bringing ROG into the Ireland set up because there looks to be a bit of a shortage of confidence. One of the things that ROG has spoken a lot about here in interviews is the positivity that there is in the Crusaders camp which is largely down to Razor. Some of that positivity would be welcomed in the Irish camp.

I wouldn't be interested in Rog as back coach at all at this stage. Too late in the day to bring him.

Agree fully. The wc could be a disaster and he is better off not being associated with the current set up.

ROG has already spent some time with team Ireland (tour to US a few years ago).
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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 4:15 pm

Yeah that was more for him to develop rather than the other way round.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 6:13 pm

With that kinda thing in mind I'm just reminded by something that supposedly happened on match day .... I think Schmidt was to meet O''Shea twice on the day - first time before the game for the usual pleasantries, and then again sometime after the game to give an Irish coaching view of the Italian performance. I think that must have been when everyone expected Italy to get a hiding and Joe would be accommodating in his last Ireland v Italy in letting O'Shea know how we went about it.
I'll bet that was a bit of a laugh when/if they went through with the post-game chat.

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Post by profitius on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 10:19 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Hmm, world cup year and the cracks are appearing... again. As we predicted. Whistle

Keep in mind that some of that squad at the weekend won't be on the plane to Japan.
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Post by Taylorman on Wed 27 Feb 2019, 11:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah that was more for him to develop rather than the other way round.

Yes, that continues, at least he's stopped freaking out over what he's seeing anymore.

One thought might be for Razor to take the Irish side with ROG assisting there. Razor could just be the worlds best coach even now, likely in two to three years.

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Post by eirebilly on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 7:03 am

Its too early for ROG to go to the Irish setup, I would prefer him to stay down in NZ for another year then move to Munster for a couple before taking the step to the Irish team myself.
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Post by miaow on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 7:32 am

Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 9:16 am

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah that was more for him to develop rather than the other way round.

Yes, that continues, at least he's stopped freaking out over what he's seeing anymore.

One thought might be for Razor to take the Irish side with ROG assisting there. Razor could just be the worlds best coach even now, likely in two to three years.

I wouldn't be against Robertson coaching Ireland in theory as he does have proven success in coaching the top performing super rugby side. He seems like a good coach albeit a bit kooky. Likewise a Lancaster Cullen team could be useful as they have been quite successful with Leinster.

That said, never has an Irish manager ever been appointed without having spent time coaching at provincial, club or school level. Even Andy Farrell has done some time with Munster, Gatland (Connacht and Galwegians), Schmidt (Leinster, Wilsons Hospital and Mullingar) Murray Kidd (Garryowen and Sundays Well) etc.


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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 9:24 am

miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its quite funny to witness. The rise of the NH has seen in my view coincided with a desperate scramble from some Kiwi punters and fans to understand the shift in power which seems to have concluded in a general consensus that it must be down to SH coaches and players.

The inconvenient truth is that isn't really that prominent a reason at all as there have always been SH coaches and players in the NH as far back as Murray Kidd coaching Ireland in 1995 to literally no success. Likewise, NZ have for a long time benefitted from players of Fijian, Samoan and Tongan heritage.

The game has just evolved at a steadier pace now in the NH and over taken the SH fairly organically. South Africa's political and economic problems have lead to their decline and Australian rugby's issues that have always been there have never really been resolved are catching up with them. Argentina given they have no professional domestic league and crippling economic inflation probably more than any top ten nation have a limit to how well they can do which they have done well to on occasion surpass or equal.

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 9:35 am

Yeah, lots of players are more mobile in coming to the North and coaches too...nice money, better communications with life back home, it's not so dramatic a thing as it was in the earlier years of professionalism when there was still a delay of bloody ten seconds on a long range call.
But as regards real inroads on quality and dominance at International level? Well let's wait a year or two more before calling that one. We still haven't seen 2019 vintage SA, Australia or New Zealand. New Zealand will always be up there but the potency even of SA and Australia might shock a lot of people. High form can go (Ireland) and come. Too early to make a claim that primacy in quality of rugby has moved permanently north.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 10:52 am

miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its not really a serious question is it? What big talent might we be missing out on for example?

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 10:54 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its quite funny to witness. The rise of the NH has seen in my view coincided with a desperate scramble from some Kiwi punters and fans to understand the shift in power which seems to have concluded in a general consensus that it must be down to SH coaches and players.

The inconvenient truth is that isn't really that prominent a reason at all as there have always been SH coaches and players in the NH as far back as Murray Kidd coaching Ireland in 1995 to literally no success. Likewise, NZ have for a long time benefitted from players of Fijian, Samoan and Tongan heritage.

The game has just evolved at a steadier pace now in the NH and over taken the SH fairly organically. South Africa's political and economic problems have lead to their decline and Australian rugby's issues that have always been there have never really been resolved are catching up with them. Argentina given they have no professional domestic league and crippling economic inflation probably more than any top ten nation have a limit to how well they can do which they have done well to on occasion surpass or equal.

Game has evolved at a steadier pace? Have to agree, 120 years is about as steady as one can get.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:11 am

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its quite funny to witness. The rise of the NH has seen in my view coincided with a desperate scramble from some Kiwi punters and fans to understand the shift in power which seems to have concluded in a general consensus that it must be down to SH coaches and players.

The inconvenient truth is that isn't really that prominent a reason at all as there have always been SH coaches and players in the NH as far back as Murray Kidd coaching Ireland in 1995 to literally no success. Likewise, NZ have for a long time benefitted from players of Fijian, Samoan and Tongan heritage.

The game has just evolved at a steadier pace now in the NH and over taken the SH fairly organically. South Africa's political and economic problems have lead to their decline and Australian rugby's issues that have always been there have never really been resolved are catching up with them. Argentina given they have no professional domestic league and crippling economic inflation probably more than any top ten nation have a limit to how well they can do which they have done well to on occasion surpass or equal.

Game has evolved at a steadier pace? Have to agree, 120 years is about as steady as one can get.

The timeline I was thinking of was since the start of professionalism. SH sides were effectively professional long before NH sides.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:14 am

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its not really a serious question is it? What big talent might we be missing out on for example?

I think NZ will be fine. There will always be a steady stream of fresh off the boat imports from Tonga, Samoa and Fiji. Its engrained in NZ rugby, always has been.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:19 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its quite funny to witness. The rise of the NH has seen in my view coincided with a desperate scramble from some Kiwi punters and fans to understand the shift in power which seems to have concluded in a general consensus that it must be down to SH coaches and players.

The inconvenient truth is that isn't really that prominent a reason at all as there have always been SH coaches and players in the NH as far back as Murray Kidd coaching Ireland in 1995 to literally no success. Likewise, NZ have for a long time benefitted from players of Fijian, Samoan and Tongan heritage.

The game has just evolved at a steadier pace now in the NH and over taken the SH fairly organically. South Africa's political and economic problems have lead to their decline and Australian rugby's issues that have always been there have never really been resolved are catching up with them. Argentina given they have no professional domestic league and crippling economic inflation probably more than any top ten nation have a limit to how well they can do which they have done well to on occasion surpass or equal.

Game has evolved at a steadier pace? Have to agree, 120 years is about as steady as one can get.

The timeline I was thinking of was since the start of professionalism. SH sides were effectively professional long before NH sides.

Whats ‘effectively’ professional? Is that like effectively pregnant? Do you have a job or dont you? Laugh

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:20 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its not really a serious question is it? What big talent might we be missing out on for example?

I think NZ will be fine. There will always be a steady stream of fresh off the boat imports from Tonga, Samoa and Fiji. Its engrained in NZ rugby, always has been.

Dont you get tired of that one? Boooooooooooring.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:21 am

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its not really a serious question is it? What big talent might we be missing out on for example?

I think NZ will be fine. There will always be a steady stream of fresh off the boat imports from Tonga, Samoa and Fiji. Its engrained in NZ rugby, always has been.

Dont you get tired of that one? Boooooooooooring.

Well it is true. You can pretend it isn't if you like but it is.

Fifeta, Frizzell and Fekitoa some recent example.

About as boring as your comments re SH players and coaches in the NH?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:24 am

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its quite funny to witness. The rise of the NH has seen in my view coincided with a desperate scramble from some Kiwi punters and fans to understand the shift in power which seems to have concluded in a general consensus that it must be down to SH coaches and players.

The inconvenient truth is that isn't really that prominent a reason at all as there have always been SH coaches and players in the NH as far back as Murray Kidd coaching Ireland in 1995 to literally no success. Likewise, NZ have for a long time benefitted from players of Fijian, Samoan and Tongan heritage.

The game has just evolved at a steadier pace now in the NH and over taken the SH fairly organically. South Africa's political and economic problems have lead to their decline and Australian rugby's issues that have always been there have never really been resolved are catching up with them. Argentina given they have no professional domestic league and crippling economic inflation probably more than any top ten nation have a limit to how well they can do which they have done well to on occasion surpass or equal.

Game has evolved at a steadier pace? Have to agree, 120 years is about as steady as one can get.

The timeline I was thinking of was since the start of professionalism. SH sides were effectively professional long before NH sides.

Whats ‘effectively’ professional? Is that like effectively pregnant? Do you have a job or dont you? Laugh

You aren't familiar with the evolution of professionalism in rugby union? Doesn't really surprise me at all.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:26 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its not really a serious question is it? What big talent might we be missing out on for example?

I think NZ will be fine. There will always be a steady stream of fresh off the boat imports from Tonga, Samoa and Fiji. Its engrained in NZ rugby, always has been.

Dont you get tired of that one? Boooooooooooring.

Well it is true. You can pretend it isn't if you like but it is.

Fifeta, Frizzell and Fekitoa some recent example.

About as boring as your comments re SH players and coaches in the NH?

Fekitoa? Last time I checked your lot have him so thats a rather dumb example. Laugh Laugh

You cant even get that right. We gave him a career. You went shopping for it because with all the english depth we hear of, they couldnt make their own Laugh

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:30 am

Not really, he was originally poached by NZ. He has 24 AB caps. I think the joke may be on you.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:38 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Not really, he was originally poached by NZ. He has 24 AB caps. I think the joke may be on you.

Really, we get him for free, oh, and by the way sort his personal, drinking and fighting problems out for him, train him to be good enough to be a pro rugby player then decide hes not good enough, then you open your wallets and pay him far more than when he actually was good? Nah, i think the jokes definitely on you. thumbsup

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 11:39 am

Getting something for free sounds like poaching?

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 12:07 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Getting something for free sounds like poaching?

Does it? We didnt get an All Black for free. We created the All Black from a lost kid. Your lot poached the All Black. You got a talent you dont currently have, we didnt.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 12:12 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Getting something for free sounds like poaching?

Does it? We didnt get an All Black for free. We created the All Black from a lost kid. Your lot poached the All Black. You got a talent you dont currently have, we didnt.

Snore. Poor New Zealand. Everyone feels so sorry for you. Always the victim.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 2:23 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Getting something for free sounds like poaching?

Does it? We didnt get an All Black for free. We created the All Black from a lost kid. Your lot poached the All Black. You got a talent you dont currently have, we didnt.

Snore. Poor New Zealand. Everyone feels so sorry for you. Always the victim.

Didnt say that, just cleaning your rubbish up as usual. You wouldnt know the Pacific Island community if you fell over it so to hear someone from Ireland go on and on about them as if hes somehow cares is pitiful.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 2:37 pm

Great to see you position yourselves as the great humanitarians and simultaneously the great victims of world rugby all at the same time. Poor New Zealand, always the victim.

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Post by miaow on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 3:53 pm

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its not really a serious question is it? What big talent might we be missing out on for example?

Wow. What a shocking answer...

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 5:53 pm

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:Interesting question for Tman: you're keen to point out the importance of SH coaches in the North.

Do you think the reluctance of the SH to employ NH coaches, as well as the (likely) drop in salary relative to a comparable role in the NH, is a missed opportunity for the SANZAR nations? Are they missing out on some big talent that would flourish in the SH like ROG?

Its not really a serious question is it? What big talent might we be missing out on for example?

Wow. What a shocking answer...

Why? ROG was suggested by Carter in his connections with the Saders, so that would never have happened if not for Carters backing. And ROG is the only one. We saw ROG as a experiment more than anything, though he seems to have gone well. At least ROG appears to have put the experience above the dollar, assuming he would have received more in the NH.

If the north arent selecting NH coaches for their test sides or many of their club sides and we are filling them, why would we...who’s left to come here?

Lancaster seems the only other coach interested as he asked to come out but his capitulation in 2015 particularly when an outsider in Jones comes in and has immediate and total success suggests he doesnt have what it takes at the top. Not a typical hard rugby man that we would go for. Technically astute but didnt get the best from individuals. Is having success with Leinster...albeit after the fact.

Point is, we wont go outside of our ranks unless the options are better. They arent. And you dont either, difference being, they are.

So enlighten me, whats shocking about the answer? Of either of us you will know why you hire from outside. We don5 need to. A space given to an outsider robs someone of valuable work here. Thats why we wouldnt take your players in any sort of big numbers. Paying an external means not investing in a player locally, and with talent consistently coming through, and being taken overseas just as quickly, what value is it to us to pay an overseas player?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 6:09 pm

You would but as you say above not many people turn down more money and lose the chance to represent their country. Haskell and Symonds are the only 2 Englishmen that I'm immediately aware of both moving back to try and earn caps. Earle did for a bit of experience.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 6:26 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Great to see you position yourselves as the great humanitarians and simultaneously the great victims of world rugby all at the same time. Poor New Zealand, always the victim.

Well if you had genuine concern for PI rugby you would protest the exclusion of PIs from this for at least 12 years. You dont, instead you choose to use them as a slagging tool against NZ. Pathetic guns. Truly pathetic.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 6:31 pm

Almost as pathetic as your constant whinging about SH players and coaches coming to the NH for a better life?

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 7:42 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Almost as pathetic as your constant whinging about SH players and coaches coming to the NH for a better life?

Yes, typical NH response. We do all the hard work while your lot sit on your fat behinds soaking up everything that comes your way, without a care whats happening elsewhere. At least Sexton and the like has the decency to support them. Thats why its great seeing your sides looooose. You do little to deserve what success you do have.

Take your money away and you have the same clap trap youve had for a hundred years. Even with it its a marginal improvement and we have to show you how to do that. Geez, the pain to get anything decent out of NH rugby. Give it up I say, its painful watching the effort

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 28 Feb 2019, 9:34 pm

Oh poor you, blah blah blah. It must be exhausting being the victim all the time. Id say you needed to change your shorts a few times after Stockdale scored that screamer v NZ in November.

but but but the only reason they won is because 20 years ago Joe Schmidt coached in New Zealand. Loser mentality.

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