The Build to England’s Summer of Cricket

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 13 Feb 2019, 11:25 am

First topic message reminder :

It’s a little early for separate World Cup and Ashes threads, but with the Windies giving England less wins than they might have liked, what confidence had been gained from Sri Lanka has been drained.

If anything, it feels like there were less questions in summer than there are now, with the top three even less secure, Curran’s away showings looking unconvincing so far and some questions around  places for Bairstow, Foakes and pace of Wood or similar. 

There’s also a World Cup coming, a home World Cup, something England have been building towards for quite some time. They’re a very good team, maybe better than any England World Cup team, but there’s a few issues.

It’s also worth noting opponents, although I can’t see anyone getting more discussion than the Aussies. They’ve recovered from defeat to win a home series against a very weak Sri Lanka. Their tails are up, and they could welcome back their two bets batsmen. Could, as morals might well make that a little difficult. They don’t have many here, though, so it will depend just how much of a tit Warner is in the meantime.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 May 2019, 11:12 am

Gooseberry wrote:WTF really?
Think the bank account needs warming! That does kinda make more sense of the Archer /Dawson lack of game time

Indeed! Not official ODIs apparently, and both teams can use all 15 players in any one game, but it really does seem unnecessary after the four games against Pakistan.

https://www.ageasbowl.com/cricket/news/hampshire-bowl-to-host-two-icc-cricket-world-cup-warm-up-fixtures/

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 21 May 2019, 11:13 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Didn't actually realise until now, but England have two more 'warm-up' games before the World Cup starts - against Australia on Saturday and Afghanistan on Monday. How much warmer do they need to be?!

And Jimbo won't be happy...as it has been confirmed both Vince and Dawson miss the one day cup final due to that game against Australia.


That's very poor.

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Post by alfie on Tue 21 May 2019, 11:54 am

Good advance notice on the squad , Olly...you must have "sources" Smile

Pretty much as expected. Willey is unfortunate. Didn't do much wrong. And having been selected in the original 15 , to be ousted by Archer on the strength of the latter's three games and just three wickets might be seen as harsh treatment. You couldn't claim Archer was tearing down trees exactly ; and he wasn't asked to go the full ten overs or play a lot of games to "prove" himself.
Clearly , Archer was intended to be brought in as long as he didn't have a complete disaster in the Pakistan and Ireland games. Might then have been fairer to pick him in the first place rather than go through this exercise ?

Never mind. Done is done ; and the new man may indeed turn out to be a crucial addition. Just hope they aren't loading the lad up with too much expectation. Willey presumably remains first reserve in the not unlikely situation of one of the quicks getting injured...

With all those round robin games likely they will rotate the seamers quite a lot. Pleased to see they all look capable of doing a job. Probably the notion they might also wish to rotate spinners played a part in the Dawson over Denly choice : he seems a better fit for the role of a full ten over bowler who bats late - and Vince is probably fine to cover all the batting spots. The hard thing for Denly was that he scarcely got the chance to show his bowling skills...which arguably made his selection for these games a bit pointless.

Won't hazard a guess at the "final" XI . Have to get to the final first Smile

And by the time they (hopefully) get there , they should have a pretty good idea what the best team will be.

No chicken counting here but they should go into this tournament in good spirits and a sensible degree of confidence. Good luck to all of them ...

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 21 May 2019, 12:19 pm

As regards Denly's omission, Fabian Cowdrey (grandson of Colin and a Kent player himself until recently) commented on this being likely when he was on comms yesterday for Kent's game against Surrey. He thought it could at least be sold by Bayliss/Smith to Denly on the following lines:
''You're currently in possession of a Test place. Go and cement that and your place in the Ashes series now with Championship runs. Something you wouldn't be able to do if you were bench warming in the World Cup.''
Some merit in that. Despite his silly name, young Fabian (young to me anyway!) came across well and seemed to have a good grasp of reality.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 21 May 2019, 12:33 pm

guildfordbat wrote:As regards Denly's omission, Fabian Cowdrey (grandson of Colin and a Kent player himself until recently) commented on this being likely when he was on comms yesterday for Kent's game against Surrey. He thought it could at least be sold by Bayliss/Smith to Denly on the following lines:
''You're currently in possession of a Test place. Go and cement that and your place in the Ashes series now with Championship runs. Something you wouldn't be able to do if you were bench warming in the World Cup.''
Some merit in that. Despite his silly name, young Fabian (young to me anyway!) came across well and seemed to have a good grasp of reality.

It's a good point. Not including the game currently going on, there are 6 Championship fixtures for Kent between now and the World Cup final, and at players hoping to get in England's top order are struggling for runs in the current round of fixtures.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 23 May 2019, 11:10 am

I agree its a good message for Denly, and ultimately he cant be too bitter ..he didnt take the chance offered to him. Whilst Im surprised by the move back to Dawson its fair to say that this time last year Denly wouldn't have harboured realistic ambitions of even being in the mix for the world cup and his rise to an all formats England player wasnt pretty off the radar.
As for tests lets be honest he only got a spot because they ran out of options, even Jennings was extremely fortunate to keep a spot for the winter squad. Again whilst he hasnt had much of a run not only was he not really good enough in the first place but hasnt done anything that screams he is the future either. With a number of other openers stepping up this season (Sibley, the return of Hameed, Crawely at kent) his place should only be secure if hes doing the same himself at county level. Plus the actual practise and getting in that mindset wont do him any harm if he does play in the Ashes.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 10:16 am

England fielding first today. No Maxwell, Starc or Cummins, according to Cricinfo, for Australia, and no Root, Morgan, Archer or Rashid for England.

8/11 that England win. Seems a bit of a bargain.

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 25 May 2019, 11:06 am

Mark Wood limps off with a calf issue

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 11:56 am

Watching on and off (prioritizing my Tigers v Essendon in AFL) but a couple of comments so far :

New England kit is AWFUL. (Aussie one no better ) what is this ? Back to the seventies ?

Why rest Archer again ? He's done little but rest since he put on an England shirt . Comments they are keeping him "as a surprise " ; but given he is the least experienced ODI player in the squad you'd think he could do with some more preparation ? Trust it isn't a fitness issue...

Speaking of injuries : Morgan finger , now Wood stops mid-over ...hope this isn't a sign of what is to come at the crucial time !

Warner a bit subdued today : out now to Plunkett . Liam doesn't seem to be in anyone's fancied XI ; but he keeps taking these precious wickets in the middle overs . (For mine , preferred team has Woakes all the time , Wood or Archer , and Curran or Plunkett. We shall see...

YJB is great in the field , gloves or not.

91/2 after 18. Advantage England so far but this is a shadow game with no Morgan Woakes Cummins or Starc.m

Back to the football...

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 12:02 pm

alfie wrote:Why rest Archer again ? He's done little but rest since he put on an England shirt . Comments they are keeping him "as a surprise " ; but given he is the least experienced ODI player in the squad you'd think he could do with some more preparation ? Trust it isn't a fitness issue...

Speaking of injuries : Morgan finger , now Wood stops mid-over ...hope this isn't a sign of what is to come at the crucial time !

I think Archer must be approaching some kind of record for the most-rested player in professional sport! At this rate, we'll only see him in one group game and the final itself.

And, yes, injuries are piling up. Wood hurt himself today. Archer subsequently did likewise after being a substitute fielder. Woakes is being rested due to knee problems, Rashid the same with a shoulder issue. And Morgan has damaged a finger.

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 2:57 pm

Good to see Stokes get a workout with the ball...he's been sparingly used lately , but today with Wood going down he was forced to do a solid job ; and came through pretty well.
Plunkett leaks a few runs ; but he continues to take wickets . A skill not to be sneezed at if matches are going to played on roads...

Roy a bit edgy early in the reply.  Couple of streaky boundaries but the third one was fine.

Aussie spare pace bowlers having something of a "bowl off today" ?

Edit. : Ha ! I thought I was posting this on the "other" thread" , in response to Duty's innings summary Smile Too confusing with this and the "WC" one...

I will wait and see who else is commenting - and where - before I post again.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 3:08 pm

Solid effort from England. Australia restricted to 297/9, with only Smith making a big score. Impressed with Curran and Stokes (for once!), though Plunkett also picked up a healthy haul of wickets. Little to suggest that Ali or Dawson would be capable replacements for they key player of Rashid, should the Yorkshireman be injured during the tournament.

Good little test for England now, minus their two senior batsmen. A test they should overcome, especially with Starc and Cummins not bowling. Apparently Rashid and Archer will bat, if needed, due to the injuries for Wood and Dawson (split finger, if you believe it!).

Roy dropped early, but England currently unscathed. Wood off for a scan, apparently...that doesn't sound good.

(I'll move back over to this thread!)

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 3:15 pm

Duty281 wrote:Solid effort from England. Australia restricted to 297/9, with only Smith making a big score. Impressed with Curran and Stokes (for once!), though Plunkett also picked up a healthy haul of wickets. Little to suggest that Ali or Dawson would be capable replacements for they key player of Rashid, should the Yorkshireman be injured during the tournament.

Good little test for England now, minus their two senior batsmen. A test they should overcome, especially with Starc and Cummins not bowling. Apparently Rashid and Archer will bat, if needed, due to the injuries for Wood and Dawson (split finger, if you believe it!).

Roy dropped early, but England currently unscathed. Wood off for a scan, apparently...that doesn't sound good.

(I'll move back over to this thread!)

Thanks , Duty Smile

Seems like it is only us watching at the moment... The Hampshire fans will have other priorities...

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 3:19 pm

Ah...just as England were getting into gear , Bairstow holes out with a top edge...

Caught by Warner ; so the two IPL "buddies" have removed eac other today Smile

Test for Vince now in the absence of Root...

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 3:42 pm

England not exactly racing at the moment : Zampa - introduced quite early by Finch in an interesting move - has largely kept them to singles.

...and now Roy has gone ! That ball from Richardson really surprised him with the extra bounce.

65/2 and Stokes comes to the wicket with some work to do...

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 3:48 pm

Yes, this does constitute a wobble. But a great opportunity for Vince to show what he can do.

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 3:59 pm

Duty281 wrote:Yes, this does constitute a wobble. But a great opportunity for Vince to show what he can do.

And a test for England in combating a two spinner bowling attack with Lyon now in the action...

Plenty of time to speed up later I guess. But after losing both openers without the usual huge contribution , and with neither Root or Morgan in the lineup , the other bats have an opportunity to show what they can do when required.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 4:17 pm

Stokes out stumped and England are in a bit of bother. Pretty poor innings from Stokes all the way through, so no real surprise he's gone cheaply.

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 4:25 pm

Yes not looking too good for the hosts at the moment. Buttler in now so this could change quickly ...but they wouldn't want to lose another wicket now.
Must be a slightly odd feel to this game , with most of the players essentially assured of their spots in the team and basically waiting for the real thing to start , so questionable how much we should read into what happens here. But I'd imagine Buttler in particular will want to impose himself ...and keep the winning habit.

Meanwhile NZ have monstered India quite comprehensively in the other game...

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 4:42 pm

Buttler appreciated Coulter-Nile's reintroduction to the attack Smile

24 off the over and he's caught Vince already...

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 4:42 pm

Ahh, the Buttler we all love. 24 runs plundered off some buffet bowling. Help yourself. Puts England back in control.

Very impressive win for New Zealand. In English conditions, Southee and Boult will always give their side a chance against any team in the world.

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Post by alfie on Sat 25 May 2019, 4:54 pm

Fifty and out for Buttler ! Relief for Coulter-Nile.

Think that ball jumped a bit on him ? Well it puts Australia back in the driver's seat ; unless Moeen can put his recent poor batting record behind him you'd think they'll struggle to chase this down now.

Mind you , that burst of scoring has taken care of the run rate so they really only need to bat the overs at a reasonable clip.

Damn I was enjoying watching The Jos Buttler show ! Getting late here so not sure I will bother staying to the end now...good luck chaps . Will leave the rest for the replay I think.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 5:01 pm

Think England are still in command here. They don't need to take any undue risks to keep up with the RRR, and there's still plenty of batting to come. Moeen needs a score, granted.

Potential key moment of the match as Vince just escapes being clean bowled by millimetres.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 5:16 pm

Soft dismissal for Vince. That does put Australia in pole position.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 6:28 pm

England lose. Well that's a rarity. Not an official ODI, though, so I'm not counting it! Wink

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Post by Nathaniel Jacobs on Sat 25 May 2019, 6:31 pm

Is archer also injured? Laboured between the wickets. Didn’t look particularly happy either.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 25 May 2019, 9:54 pm

*pretends to be shocked Mark Wood is injured*
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Post by guildfordbat on Sat 25 May 2019, 10:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:Ahh, the Buttler we all love. 24 runs plundered off some buffet bowling. Help yourself. Puts England back in control.

Very impressive win for New Zealand. In English conditions, Southee and Boult will always give their side a chance against any team in the world.

Yeah, New Zealand don't seem to have been tipped by many but I like the cut of their jib. One who has given them a shout is David 'Bumble' Lloyd - a decent pundit when able to resist playing the clown.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 25 May 2019, 10:36 pm

Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Is archer also injured? Laboured between the wickets. Didn’t look particularly happy either.

Quite possibly. There's no other logical reason for him getting 'rested' so often. If he is actually fully-fit, he's in danger of lacking sharpness and being undercooked when the World Cup begins.

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Post by guildfordbat on Sun 26 May 2019, 9:01 am

Duty281 wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Is archer also injured? Laboured between the wickets. Didn’t look particularly happy either.

Quite possibly. There's no other logical reason for him getting 'rested' so often. If he is actually fully-fit, he's in danger of lacking sharpness and being undercooked when the World Cup begins.

Just seen this. I was about to ask - when are we going to see Archer bowl again? That's what he needs to be doing and not only in the nets.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 26 May 2019, 10:02 am

guildfordbat wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Nathaniel Jacobs wrote:Is archer also injured? Laboured between the wickets. Didn’t look particularly happy either.

Quite possibly. There's no other logical reason for him getting 'rested' so often. If he is actually fully-fit, he's in danger of lacking sharpness and being undercooked when the World Cup begins.

Just seen this. I was about to ask - when are we going to see Archer bowl again? That's what he needs to be doing and not only in the nets.

Hopefully on Monday for England's final warm-up game. If he doesn't, I think we can safely assume he's injured - so far, he's only bowled 22 overs in one-day matches for England.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 29 May 2019, 8:05 am

Rashid is apparently having to manage a persistent shoulder injury, which explains why hes hardly bowled in the last few games. Its also being noted as a factor in the decision to go with Dawson as the next nearest thing to a proper reserve spinnner they could find over Denly.
How central Dawson is to Englands plans is perhaps summed up by him been given just 9 overs and not used as a batsman in the warm ups. Even Root got 6 overs. very much the squads spare man, but Id still expect Dawson to play in the Bangladesh and Afghanistan games to rest Rashid. Hes one of the few players that England cant really directly replace, Dawson will not fill the same role as a genuine attacking spinner and give teh same level of threat that a decent leggie does. Many of the top wicket takes in ODIs over the last few years are leg spinners and they have become a pretty vital part of an attack in short form cricket. Weve seen one of the biggest problems England have had is shifting quality batsmen (like Smith), its guys like Rashid and Archer who have the ability to force wickets rather than rely on top batsmen getting themselves out.
If the injury hampers him or keeps him out of the knock out games England will be significantly weakened IMO.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 29 May 2019, 9:18 am

Gooseberry wrote:Rashid is apparently having to manage a persistent shoulder injury, which explains why hes hardly bowled in the last few games. Its also being noted as a factor in the decision to go with Dawson as the next nearest thing to a proper reserve spinnner they could find over Denly.
How central Dawson is to Englands plans is perhaps summed up by him been given just 9 overs and not used as a batsman in the warm ups. Even Root got 6 overs. very much the squads spare man, but Id still expect Dawson to play in the Bangladesh and Afghanistan games to rest Rashid. Hes one of the few players that England cant really directly replace, Dawson will not fill the same role as a genuine attacking spinner and give teh same level of threat that a decent leggie does. Many of the top wicket takes in ODIs over the last few years are leg spinners and they have become a pretty vital part of an attack in short form cricket. Weve seen one of the biggest problems England have had is shifting quality batsmen (like Smith), its guys like Rashid and Archer who have the ability to force wickets rather than rely on top batsmen getting themselves out.
If the injury hampers him or keeps him out of the knock out games England will be significantly weakened IMO.

Fair analysis on England's spin options.

I guess they might be thinking about replacing Rashid with a fast bowler on the flatter decks (e.g. get Archer and Wood in the same team and look at replacing the wicket threat in the middle overs that way) with Root as a second spin option if they want a bit more pace off the ball? Hence Root getting the ball and trying out his leg spin variations.

This is possibly a better option if they don't see Dawson as a genuine wicket-taker on flatter pitches, and I guess they had the same reservations about Denly. Perhaps if the pitch looked like it might turn they'd go with Dawson and Moeen?

With regards to the knockouts, you'd hope England manage Rashid sensibly and can get there while giving him time to fully recover. Not sure how fit he'll be for the opener, but South Africa are the strongest team we'll play until Australia on the 25th June. We can give Rashid some time after that South Africa game and even if we dropped 1 match on the way it wouldn't be terminal to our hopes.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 29 May 2019, 10:25 am

Gooseberry wrote:Rashid is apparently having to manage a persistent shoulder injury, which explains why hes hardly bowled in the last few games. Its also being noted as a factor in the decision to go with Dawson as the next nearest thing to a proper reserve spinnner they could find over Denly.
How central Dawson is to Englands plans is perhaps summed up by him been given just 9 overs and not used as a batsman in the warm ups. Even Root got 6 overs. very much the squads spare man, but Id still expect Dawson to play in the Bangladesh and Afghanistan games to rest Rashid. Hes one of the few players that England cant really directly replace, Dawson will not fill the same role as a genuine attacking spinner and give teh same level of threat that a decent leggie does. Many of the top wicket takes in ODIs over the last few years are leg spinners and they have become a pretty vital part of an attack in short form cricket. Weve seen one of the biggest problems England have had is shifting quality batsmen (like Smith), its guys like Rashid and Archer who have the ability to force wickets rather than rely on top batsmen getting themselves out.
If the injury hampers him or keeps him out of the knock out games England will be significantly weakened IMO.

Agreed. If injury actually forced him out of the tournament at any stage, I would no longer make England favourites. Rashid is England's key ODI bowler, the leading wicket taker in world ODI cricket since the end of the last World Cup, and it's a very steep drop-off in quality from the replacements.

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Post by James100 on Wed 29 May 2019, 11:48 am

Duty281 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Rashid is apparently having to manage a persistent shoulder injury, which explains why hes hardly bowled in the last few games. Its also being noted as a factor in the decision to go with Dawson as the next nearest thing to a proper reserve spinnner they could find over Denly.
How central Dawson is to Englands plans is perhaps summed up by him been given just 9 overs and not used as a batsman in the warm ups. Even Root got 6 overs. very much the squads spare man, but Id still expect Dawson to play in the Bangladesh and Afghanistan games to rest Rashid. Hes one of the few players that England cant really directly replace, Dawson will not fill the same role as a genuine attacking spinner and give teh same level of threat that a decent leggie does. Many of the top wicket takes in ODIs over the last few years are leg spinners and they have become a pretty vital part of an attack in short form cricket. Weve seen one of the biggest problems England have had is shifting quality batsmen (like Smith), its guys like Rashid and Archer who have the ability to force wickets rather than rely on top batsmen getting themselves out.
If the injury hampers him or keeps him out of the knock out games England will be significantly weakened IMO.

Agreed. If injury actually forced him out of the tournament at any stage, I would no longer make England favourites. Rashid is England's key ODI bowler, the leading wicket taker in world ODI cricket since the end of the last World Cup, and it's a very steep drop-off in quality from the replacements.

Agree with this. Rashid is absolutely England's key man for me

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 29 May 2019, 12:24 pm

James100 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:Rashid is apparently having to manage a persistent shoulder injury, which explains why hes hardly bowled in the last few games. Its also being noted as a factor in the decision to go with Dawson as the next nearest thing to a proper reserve spinnner they could find over Denly.
How central Dawson is to Englands plans is perhaps summed up by him been given just 9 overs and not used as a batsman in the warm ups. Even Root got 6 overs. very much the squads spare man, but Id still expect Dawson to play in the Bangladesh and Afghanistan games to rest Rashid. Hes one of the few players that England cant really directly replace, Dawson will not fill the same role as a genuine attacking spinner and give teh same level of threat that a decent leggie does. Many of the top wicket takes in ODIs over the last few years are leg spinners and they have become a pretty vital part of an attack in short form cricket. Weve seen one of the biggest problems England have had is shifting quality batsmen (like Smith), its guys like Rashid and Archer who have the ability to force wickets rather than rely on top batsmen getting themselves out.
If the injury hampers him or keeps him out of the knock out games England will be significantly weakened IMO.

Agreed. If injury actually forced him out of the tournament at any stage, I would no longer make England favourites. Rashid is England's key ODI bowler, the leading wicket taker in world ODI cricket since the end of the last World Cup, and it's a very steep drop-off in quality from the replacements.

Agree with this. Rashid is absolutely England's key man for me

Stating the obvious, but agree with the consensus here - he isn't called #Rashenius for no reason! Cool (he's also handy to come in at the death with the bat if needed and flick some weird boundaries)
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Post by VTR on Wed 29 May 2019, 1:01 pm

We need Rashid. Let's hope for a good start and ability to rest him. I'd have thought England could qualify for the knockouts without him, but he would be essential in the semi final or final. If he can't play its four years of development down the drain.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 29 May 2019, 1:28 pm

Favourites with Rashid, considerably less so without.

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Post by alfie on Thu 30 May 2019, 9:52 am

VTR wrote:We need Rashid. Let's hope for a good start and ability to rest him. I'd have thought England could qualify for the knockouts without him, but he would be essential in the semi final or final. If he can't play its four years of development down the drain.

I wouldn't go that far ! Certainly Rashid has been a key player in the ODI team's recent success , and he's likely to play a major role in this WC (fitness - hopefully - permitting) : but I think the team is strong enough that they can cover the loss of any player and remain highly competitive.
Obviously they don't want to be without Rashid - or Buttler , or Morgan , etc - for a vital game. But I would never write them off...they are a pretty adaptable outfit these days.

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Post by VTR on Fri 31 May 2019, 10:06 am

Should clarify, I meant four years of investment /development of Rashid as an individual, not the whole team. Him and Roy in particular were given backing to come in and play their way after the last World Cup, and both have developed into top players.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:15 am

8 untroubled overs for Rashid yesterday, going 1-35. Fears about his shoulder perhaps overblown?

Maybe there's more management going on behind the scenes that we're not seeing.

Our next 5 fixtures are Pakistan, Bangladesh, West Indies, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka and there will be no need to play him in all 5 of those unless he's fully fit to.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:33 am

robbo277 wrote:8 untroubled overs for Rashid yesterday, going 1-35. Fears about his shoulder perhaps overblown?

Maybe there's more management going on behind the scenes that we're not seeing.

Our next 5 fixtures are Pakistan, Bangladesh, West Indies, Afghanistan and Sri Lanka and there will be no need to play him in all 5 of those unless he's fully fit to.

He made it clear its just hampering his action at this point and needs managing. Note he batted 11 and was largely fielding fairly close in to avoid having to make long throws. he was also only used minimally in the warm ups. the interview with him a few days ago talked about a lot of remedial work to try and free up the movement and stop it getting worse. Cahnces are hes getting a few shots to manage pain and swelling too. If he genuinely hadnt been fit enough to bowl 10 overs then he wouldn't have been picked at all, but at this point its more of a concern it could get worse. If results continue to go Englands way I expect he will get rested for a game during the relatively easy run of fixtures England have before they face NZ, India and Aus.

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Post by alfie on Fri 31 May 2019, 1:46 pm

VTR wrote:Should clarify, I meant four years of investment /development of Rashid as an individual, not the whole team. Him and Roy in particular were given backing to come in and play their way after the last World Cup, and both have developed into top players.

Ah...that makes sense.  Must admit it did cross my mind - after I'd posted - that you might have meant it that way , VTR .
Hopefully they can manage him back to full fitness over the round-robin stages : agree he is likely to be an important player in the knock outs , especially if we have very dry pitches by then...

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 31 May 2019, 7:53 pm

Meanwhile, Michael Vaughan is in full Archer-loving mode. Vaughan predicts that Archer will be in possession of the new ball at the upcoming Ashes series, that he will be one of the best test bowlers in world cricket within a year, and that he will be a star of English cricket in every format for years to come.

Nothing like a bit of ludicrous hype!

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 31 May 2019, 8:09 pm

Hes the new Botham.

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Post by alfie on Sat 01 Jun 2019, 10:05 am

Duty281 wrote:Meanwhile, Michael Vaughan is in full Archer-loving mode. Vaughan predicts that Archer will be in possession of the new ball at the upcoming Ashes series, that he will be one of the best test bowlers in world cricket within a year, and that he will be a star of English cricket in every format for years to come.

Nothing like a bit of ludicrous hype!

Vaughan can give good analysis sometimes ...but he also likes a headline ; and doesn't mind making fairly wild comments if he thinks he will gather attention...

On what I'm seeing of Archer , I fancy his chances of having a good career : how good , we will see as it develops ; but there are no guarantees at that level. I don't think he is the sort of chap to be overwhelmed by expectations but I'd still prefer not to burden him with too many ...some deal with them (Kevin Pietersen , for example ; though he wasn't really used as a human headline until he had done some remarkable things in ODIs) and some don't (Graeme Hick : had a moderately reasonable Test career but was always seen as an underachiever because he suffered from impossible per-debut publicity. He had no hope of doing what was expected ; and I think it probably helped to make him less than he might have otherwise been. )
There have been others ; but it is usually the "exotic" - ie not born and raised in England - who attract this level of hype. Think we could all do with a bit less of it ...but that isn't the nature of the media.


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Post by VTR on Sat 01 Jun 2019, 10:11 am

Has anyone checked if Archer is under Vaughan's management company?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sat 01 Jun 2019, 11:53 am

It should be noted that Archer’s first class record is far far superior to his List A record on the county circuit...so I think some excitement about what he could do with the red ball is justified. Vaughan of course, way over the top as usual!
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Post by Jetty on Sun 02 Jun 2019, 2:24 am

All the batsmen have faced Archer and Wood in the nets to prepare them for fast short bowling. Maybe Root even was assessing which to play in the Ashes...

Anderson, Broad, Archer, Stokes, Ali. (Woakes, Wood, Curran)
5 Tests for the Ashes. Can't see Wood playing more than two at a time which his dodgy ankle.
Archer will only have bowled 4 overs in T20s and 10 overs in ODIs. Is that enough preparation for Tests? Anderson and Broad have played eight 5 Test series They are used to bowling 200 overs in 6 weeks.

Archer last first class match against Warks 114/4 (Barker, Stone, Wright and Sidebottom)
Bell 112 and Trott 124

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 03 Jun 2019, 10:24 am

Jetty wrote:All the batsmen have faced Archer and Wood in the nets to prepare them for fast short bowling. Maybe Root even was assessing which to play in the Ashes...

Anderson, Broad, Archer, Stokes, Ali. (Woakes, Wood, Curran)
5 Tests for the Ashes. Can't see Wood playing more than two at a time which his dodgy ankle.
Archer will only have bowled 4 overs in T20s and 10 overs in ODIs. Is that enough preparation for Tests? Anderson and Broad have played eight 5 Test series They are used to bowling 200 overs in 6 weeks.

Archer last first class match against Warks 114/4 (Barker, Stone, Wright and Sidebottom)
Bell 112 and Trott 124

Good to have options - as you note Jetty, we all know Wood is an injury risk and Woakes is having to manage his dodgy knee a lot more now seemingly too. Whilst you'd hope Jimmy and Broad can go what will probably one final time for a 5 test stint in 6 weeks, they may also need a rest for one game if needed.

Can also adjust for conditions/venues - Woakes becomes the 2nd coming of Sobers at Lords, so he plays there! If it is going to swing, then Curran is surely the preference over Wood, but if there is going to be little in the pitch Wood/Archer offer the pace option that Woakes/Curran don't.
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