The Build to England’s Summer of Cricket

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 13 Feb 2019, 11:25 am

First topic message reminder :

It’s a little early for separate World Cup and Ashes threads, but with the Windies giving England less wins than they might have liked, what confidence had been gained from Sri Lanka has been drained.

If anything, it feels like there were less questions in summer than there are now, with the top three even less secure, Curran’s away showings looking unconvincing so far and some questions around  places for Bairstow, Foakes and pace of Wood or similar. 

There’s also a World Cup coming, a home World Cup, something England have been building towards for quite some time. They’re a very good team, maybe better than any England World Cup team, but there’s a few issues.

It’s also worth noting opponents, although I can’t see anyone getting more discussion than the Aussies. They’ve recovered from defeat to win a home series against a very weak Sri Lanka. Their tails are up, and they could welcome back their two bets batsmen. Could, as morals might well make that a little difficult. They don’t have many here, though, so it will depend just how much of a tit Warner is in the meantime.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 9:04 am

Makes sense if the two quicks are out.
Do you know if stokes and woakes will be rested for Ireland? I guess that might depend on Anderson's prognosis.
Small chance Gregory could get a test debut?

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Post by James100 on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 9:58 am

Dobell had a piece the other day saying it was likely Woakes, Wood, Anderson and Archer would all miss the Ireland Test due to niggles and that England are considering resting Stokes, Buttler and Bairstow too.

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Post by alfie on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 10:07 am

I certainly do not support disrespecting Ireland by playing a "development XI" or leaving out players en masse ...but I think it probably makes sense to let the WC pace men take a rest . All have had injury concerns , after all , and none were automatic Test selections in the first place , although normally I'd pick Woakes for a home Test like a shot.
If Anderson is fit I am not surprised he wants to be part of history with an appearance in the first Test against Ireland ...and why not - it seems an ideal lead up for him to the Ashes. Broad and Curran are logical picks too.
Less sure about the batting. Fitness , tiredness ? Do any of them need a rest ? Stokes maybe ? Think there must be a good case to try Sibley who has done himself no harm with 74 against the Aussie back up team. Same for Denley with his century the other day.
Will be interesting to see what the selectors do come up with as it ought to provide some clues as to where they might look for the main series.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 10:37 am

It had always been my assumption they would have to rest the three format players, especially the ones who bowl. Its just sensible management. 
The problem is that means almost no red ball cricket between March and the Ashes.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 11:14 am

I don’t really advocate a 1 size fits all with the World Cup bowlers. Only one of them is likely to play the first Ashes test in any instance. If you’re starting with Woakes first up at Edgbaston you could play him against Ireland and then rest him later on for one of the tests. You can then leave Wood and Archer with their counties to build back up and challenge for a spot later.

I thought Stokes was cooked after the final but he came out for the Super over. He hasn’t been over bowled over a number of weeks, he was just tired after a physically and mentally draining innings. He should probably be right for the Ireland test but they can look at him and a combination of Woakes and Curran should be fine with two other front line bowlers if he’s not fit for it.

I’d still want to see more of our first choice players getting a run out. We often bemoan the teams lack of first class cricket going into an away series, it would be a travesty if we went into the first test of a home ashes series undercooked or underprepared to face the red ball.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 12:07 pm

Surely they won't wanna push Anderson, unless they really think they can protect his workload.

Broad, Curran, Ali, Stokes, Anderson as a five man attack? Who else would they look to pick? I know there's been some periphery figures for pace bowling on a few tours

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 12:10 pm

You've got Porter, Gregory, the Overton boys, Tom Curran, they like Ollie Robinson down at Sussex too all on the outside looking in. Olly Stone is back fit too
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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 12:44 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Surely they won't wanna push Anderson, unless they really think they can protect his workload.

Broad, Curran, Ali, Stokes, Anderson as a five man attack? Who else would they look to pick? I know there's been some periphery figures for pace bowling on a few tours


Woakes ahead of Curran. 

In regard to Anderson if you arent going to pick him for a test match when hes fit whats the point in him existing? 

England are in danger of going into the Ashes quite undercooked. For a good chunk of the team the Ireland test will be their only cricket for some weeks, and for many their only chance for red ball cricket for several months. 

Australia have a full side game against their own A team. A chunk of the side is coming from the A team who have been playing in England through the world cup period with a number of potential first XI players ( including Paine) playing. They will have had more preparation than those form England rested for the Ireland game.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 1:57 pm

James100 wrote:Dobell had a piece the other day saying it was likely Woakes, Wood, Anderson and Archer would all miss the Ireland Test due to niggles and that England are considering resting Stokes, Buttler and Bairstow too.

It's going to be a very patchwork side. Looks like at least half of the team for the Irish game won't be lining up against Australia for the first test, which makes you wonder as to the point of the fixture. Australia's game against their 'A' side looks like being better preparation.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 2:27 pm

Duty281 wrote:
James100 wrote:Dobell had a piece the other day saying it was likely Woakes, Wood, Anderson and Archer would all miss the Ireland Test due to niggles and that England are considering resting Stokes, Buttler and Bairstow too.

It's going to be a very patchwork side. Looks like at least half of the team for the Irish game won't be lining up against Australia for the first test, which makes you wonder as to the point of the fixture. Australia's game against their 'A' side looks like being better preparation.
1.Burns 2.Sibley 3.Roy 4.Root (c) 5.Vince 6.Denly 7.Foakes (wk) 8.Moeen 9.S Curran 10.T Curran 11.Broad

If all of Buttler, Bairstow, Stokes, Woakes, Wood, Archer and Anderson were rested then we could be looking at something like that.

It's a messy batting order but if they are looking to play Roy in the top 3 for the Ashes then they might as well against Ireland.

In terms of seamers Toby Roland-Jones has just taken 9 wickets against Glamorgan. He had a bright start to his test career prior to injury and the coaches rate him very highly. The Overton brothers, Stone and Josh Tongue have all been looked at by the coaches in the past as well.

Personal preference, I'd pick Leach over Moeen but Bayliss really rates Mo. He's pulled out some excellent performances in the past when under scrutiny so hopefully he does so once again.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 2:53 pm

Vince?
I cant imagine he will get another chance with England ever.

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Post by James100 on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 3:01 pm

I'd imagine Northeast is next in line for a middle order slot.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 7:24 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:True JD but didnt we spend ages moaning that England didnt have any proper top 3 batsmen who can stick around? You cant have it both ways.
But that's where Roy comes in ...either 2 or 3.
Then the third spot you have a choice between trying to break Bairstow or Root again or picking Sibley or Denly, neither of whom loom very good.
As always England are limited by players who exist. Sibley 32 not out against Aus A right now, Denly isnt playing. I think we can see which way the winds blowing.

Hi Goose -  I wouldn't stake your life on Denly making an Ireland or Ashes Test this summer but I reckon he's still in the mix. 88 and 154 in his last 3 digs (admittedly a duck in between!). He's also the man in possession having scored 69 in his last Test innings against the West Indies batting at number 3.

I wouldn't read much either way into him not being in the current Lions side. The Lions tends to be mainly made up of those who are or might be on the way up; not those in the Test side or on the way out.

What may help him as well is that the selectors will not want to bin the entire top 3 from last time out. 1 of them - yes; 2 of them - maybe; all 3 of them - very unlikely. The one almost certain to go is Jennings and that may be enough for those holding the axe. However, even if two go, it doesn't automatically have to be Denly. Jennings' last opening Test partner was Burns and he's hardly cemented his place. Burns averages a disappointing 25 from his 6 Tests (Denly a bit better at 28 from his 2 Tests). Burns has done ok in the Championship this season but hardly set it on fire.


As I see it the most likely is that Burns will keep his place, indications from all sources are that Roy will make his debut. That just leaves the third place open between Denly and either Sibley or someone bumping up the order again. Thats not binning the entire top 3, just one of them. They changed two quite regularly at the start of series. 

Keaton Jennings surely has to go, I think we all agree that. Hes had enough opportunities now and failed home and away, and is far too vulnerable to a swinging ball. Whilst there was an a theory on his initial selection that he would be good against Australia I cant see how that carries him into the Ashes. His County season hasnt been great, and ultimately this is a mature layer with a first class average of 33. He just isnt good enough.

I cant see how Denly gets in ahead of Burns. Burns was picked ahead of him initially and is a full time opener, and importantly is young enough to improve over time. At 33 Denly is right at the end of his useful life, hes also never really been good enough. Burns is having a far better county season (although he has stuttered a bit recently) if thats worth anything. Denly losing his place in the ODI squad to Liam Dawson of all people shows that people in the England camp dont rate him very highly, and hes always looked out of his depth in international cricket. 
I get your point about the Lions, but for I wouldve thought if they were serious about giving him another bite they wouldve wanted to see him facing Australian bowlers. Whilst its not as strong an attack as they picked for some of the list A game there is a number of possible test players in that Aussie side. He is having a good county season though, and I suppose he is the only one of them that actually bats at 3 regularly.  

Sibley meanwhile is playing in that Lions game. He showed some real grind to make 74 holding the innings together with wickets tumbling around him (including Crawely who is the other young talent), just getting out right at at the close of play sadly. Mind that was to Mitchell Marsh which should probably make him ineligible to play for England ever, but its exactly the sort of determined stick around innings that Englands top 3 have struggled to produce in recent years. Assuming that Roy does get picked thats exactly the kind of player England will want around him to bolster things up. He certainly wont have done his chances any harm, and it will be interesting to see how he goes in the second innings. Hes having an amazing county season, by far the highest run scorer including a recent 244 which is something I couldnt imagine Roy Jennings or Denly ever managing. Of all the contenders hes the closest to having a FC average of 40 (39 currently) and that is heading in the right direction, hes getting better and is young enough to push to another level. 

Personally I think England would be foolish to stick with players they know wont ever be good enough like Jennings and Denly. The one think that may just sway it for Denly is his legspin as an option for dead pitches, but thats a very peripheral consideration and hes been barely used internationally in any format which suggests the leadership dont place much faith in it. 



Last note on Sam Currans day, quite a statement to make. 5 for 25 with the ball, 32 not out with the bat in difficult circumstances. I really have issues with his lack of pace but the guy is making areal habit of pulling things out of the bag when England are in trouble. Id have Woakes over him every day of the week but if he has many more days like that its hard to ignore his claim.

Not really. Burns has more runs from more matches but is only averaging 37 (with 1 century) compared to Denly's average of 56 (2 tons).

I'm no cheerleader for Denly but am not convinced his time for being binned has come quite yet.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 7:37 pm

I'd be happy with Northeast getting a shot.

Malan should have a good shot at a recall after 4 Div 2 centuries this season.

Vince will remain in the discussion until others really throw their hands up though I'd guess. Duckett hasn't scored runs at Notts. Clarke is on a selection black list and hasn't scored consistently this season.

If all of Stokes, Buttler and Bairstow get rested then it will be even more of a shame for Pope that he's suffered such a horrible injury.

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Post by robbo277 on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 10:25 pm

How’s Olly Pope’s form? Struggled at 4 but if there is a spot further down the order he may be a good shout - edit: nvm just read the post above.

Leach taking wickets against Aus A as well now. How will Australia line up in terms of left hand/right hand? Is Leach more likely to get Smith, who is the lynchpin of their batting?

I’d have Moeen edging ahead, but plans need to be made for Smith.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 16 Jul 2019, 10:38 pm

I understand Pope is making good progress from his shoulder injury. He's expected to be playing again for Surrey some time next month.

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Post by Jetty on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 1:01 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Surely they won't wanna push Anderson, unless they really think they can protect his workload.

Broad, Curran, Ali, Stokes, Anderson as a five man attack? Who else would they look to pick? I know there's been some periphery figures for pace bowling on a few tours


Woakes ahead of Curran. 

In regard to Anderson if you arent going to pick him for a test match when hes fit whats the point in him existing? 

England are in danger of going into the Ashes quite undercooked. For a good chunk of the team the Ireland test will be their only cricket for some weeks, and for many their only chance for red ball cricket for several months. 

Australia have a full side game against their own A team. A chunk of the side is coming from the A team who have been playing in England through the world cup period with a number of potential first XI players ( including Paine) playing. They will have had more preparation than those form England rested for the Ireland game.

Agree with you on Anderson. He's bowling again so if you don't play him against Ireland he will have had a month with no cricket. He needs the Ireland game to be ready for the Ashes.


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 1:04 am

It's alright saying that, unless they feel he is fit enough then he isn't worth risking, surely? Especially if we consider age and his continued use.

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Post by alfie on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:42 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It's alright saying that, unless they feel he is fit enough then he isn't worth risking, surely? Especially if we consider age and his continued use.

Well of course he has to be fit. But if he is , then his inclusion is logical. He's rested from the last couple of county games so a lower key Test seems the ideal lead in for the Ashes series.

Wouldn't risk him if they were unsure of his condition - any more than any of the other possibles...

By the way I really hope they don't rest too many players : some of those suggested playing lists not only seem to devalue the occasion but might end up losing the match ! Not the start they'd want for the Test programme. I'd be playing as close as they can to the preferred XI except for those carrying niggles or seriously at risk of burnout.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:28 am

Apparently Wade retired hurt after being hit by a ball from Gregory yesterday. I'm assuming it's nothing serious but he had been pressing hard for a test recall.
Currans gone back to struggling with the ball. An all round odd match for him, but that first inning spell and making 50 with the bat should have got some attention from the selectors.
Apparently all 3 of them are there ( I'm assuming they werent for day one) so must be seriously considering putting some of these players into the test squad. Leach, Curran, Foakes, Sibley, and Gregory are all in with a shout for the Ireland test.

England will be chasing a big target today, so a great chance for Sibley to press his credentials as an opener who can stick around when the going is tough.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:59 am

Sam Curran has the left hand variety but needs to add about 5mph before he's going to become a viable option long term; the recent form of Archer and Wood enables us to use outright pace as a variation of the standard seam and swing bowlers we always pick.

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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 8:19 am

Gooseberry wrote:Apparently Wade retired hurt after being hit by a ball from Gregory yesterday. I'm assuming it's nothing serious but he had been pressing hard for a test recall.
Currans gone back to struggling with the ball. An all round odd match for him, but that first inning spell and making 50 with the bat should have got some attention from the selectors.
Apparently all 3 of them are there ( I'm assuming they werent for day one) so must be seriously considering putting some of these players into the test squad. Leach, Curran, Foakes, Sibley, and Gregory are all in with a shout for the Ireland test.

England will be chasing a big target today, so a great chance for Sibley to press his credentials as an opener who can stick around when the going is tough.

Hi Goose - I meant to mention this the other day. Sam Curran is capable of producing a golden hour with bat and ball every now and again at both county and international level. However, I do feel the stars need to be aligned (or the clouds in the case of his bowling!) for it to happen. His brother Tom is a more dependable and consistent bowler which is where my preference of the brothers rests and why.

Agree with you about Sibley. He's in the mix already and could push himself even further forward today. Like JDizzle, I'm not a great fan but I've been aware of his credentials since he was a Surrey schoolboy (warning you now I'm just itching to bump up an ancient post when he gets a Test call up! Wink ) and his weight of first class runs this season continuing from the end of last season merit serious consideration.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 9:49 am

Yeah I think Sam also gets ahead based on being a left farmer, something England have been desperately short of.
For home tracks the express pace of Archer, Wood and Tom is less important. Anderson Broad woakes and Sam have all been lethal without it in the past couple of seasons. But I do agree that Sam's never going to be much of threat with a kookabura or away from home, hes just too pedestrian.

What really counts at the end of it all is numbers. Cook talked about this in terms of opening batsmen during the world cup; theres a lot of focus on technique and style but if you're making runs that's what really matters.
Same goes for bowlers, Currans doing a lot to push Woakes for a the swing bowler who can bat a bit spot. Sibley is doing all he can in terms of scoring runs.

I do feel that at least one of the genuine pace bowlers should be in the frame for the tests too. Maybe conditions dependant, but someone like archer who can make things happen on a flat wicket could be invaluable. And they will certainly want him for future overseas tours.
I'm assuming that archer, and probably wood, will need resting through the Ireland game though. Archers had the heaviest load of his life through the world cup and was nursing an injury. I cant see him being more than a bit part player in the ashes when theres some doubt on whether hes quite up to bowling 40 overs in 5 days plus fielding yet. Let alone for all 6 tests.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 9:56 am

Jofra Archer is primarily a first class bowler and before the world cup had played more four day games than he had 50 over games, the workload doesn't seem to be a problem when he plays for Sussex.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 12:24 pm

England Lions 18/1 on the 'draw no bet' market. A free punt, perhaps? Can't see 'em losing. They might go for glory if they're only 1 or 2 down at tea.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 12:48 pm

That does seem insane are you sure youve no misread something there? They are 65/0 right now.

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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 1:38 pm

Duty281 wrote:England Lions 18/1 on the 'draw no bet' market. A free punt, perhaps? Can't see 'em losing. They might go for glory if they're only 1 or 2 down at tea.

Would be nice but I very much doubt it. These are guys in the main playing for a Test place and so are likely to prefer their name ending up in red ink rather than run the risk of chucking their wicket away. Sadly, it's sometimes more about the individuals than the team.

Meanwhile, Sibley and Crawley pushing on although the winning target looks a long way off. Sibley is the guy we're mostly talking about and understandably so but don't discount Crawley for taking the step up at some stage - I was well impressed when I saw him the other week.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:02 pm

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:11 pm

Sibley out for 30 in the end, very shortly before the test squad was announced. Hmm! 
(Over to that thread for further discussion)

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:15 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Duty281 wrote:England Lions 18/1 on the 'draw no bet' market. A free punt, perhaps? Can't see 'em losing. They might go for glory if they're only 1 or 2 down at tea.

Would be nice but I very much doubt it. These are guys in the main playing for a Test place and so are likely to prefer their name ending up in red ink rather than run the risk of chucking their wicket away. Sadly, it's sometimes more about the individuals than the team.

Meanwhile, Sibley and Crawley pushing on although the winning target looks a long way off. Sibley is the guy we're mostly talking about and understandably so but don't discount Crawley for taking the step up at some stage - I was well impressed when I saw him the other week.

I very much doubt it now, with England losing three wickets in very little time! Time to cover up for the draw.

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Post by Jetty on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:13 pm

I would like Curran to be a 'learner' No. 3. Should have been tried there instead of Foakes.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 29 Jul 2019, 6:49 pm

Feels like England will be treating the NZ tour as an opportunity to rest players such as Root, with the tests not counting towards the Test championship and tours to SA and SL coming later in the winter. Makes sense, it’s going to have been an incredibly long summer by the time the Ashes are done and just over a months break before they’d head out for nearly two months in NZ. Also likely gives them a chance to look at some of those fringe talents...

Giles also says they may not have a full time coach appointed by then.
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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 29 Jul 2019, 7:43 pm

some might question if they have one for tests now

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The Build to England’s Summer of Cricket - Page 13 Empty Re: The Build to England’s Summer of Cricket

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 10:12 am

England's home schedule in 2020: 3 Tests v W Indies (Oval, Edg, Lord's); 3 T20s + 3 ODIs v Australia (Durham, H'ley, O Trafford, Lord's, Soton, Bristol); 3 Tests + 3 T20s v Pakistan (Lord's, O Trafford, T Bridge, H'ley, Cardiff, Soton); 3 ODIs v Ireland (T Bridge, Edg, Oval)

Why play more test matches when you can cram in more pointless ODI and T20 series against Australia for no reason!
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 10:57 am

Seems like a pretty dull summer. Wonder what state the English test side will be in by then after the gruelling winter.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 11:18 am

Will be the 9th time in the past 12 summers we’ll be playing the Aussies in some format

Greed ruining a rivalry
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Post by VTR on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 11:22 am

Will also be the third time Pakistan have toured in 5 years. I don't get how we will end up playing home Tests vs them in 2016, 2018 and 2020

Agree on the pointless games vs Australia as well

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 11:55 am

The new Championship cycles (test and ODI) will start to take effect from here I guess.

NB: West Indies and Pakistan test series are both part of the test championship. Having checked (and subsequently edited my post) both the Ireland and Australia ODI series are part of the ODI super league.

The only games that won't count towards a global series are the T20Is, but with a World Cup coming up it makes sense to play these.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 12:44 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:England's home schedule in 2020: 3 Tests v W Indies (Oval, Edg, Lord's); 3 T20s + 3 ODIs v Australia (Durham, H'ley, O Trafford, Lord's, Soton, Bristol); 3 Tests + 3 T20s v Pakistan (Lord's, O Trafford, T Bridge, H'ley, Cardiff, Soton); 3 ODIs v Ireland (T Bridge, Edg, Oval)

Why play more test matches when you can cram in more pointless ODI and T20 series against Australia for no reason!


Why even bother preparing for the world T20 and Chumps Trophy?

Its the 3 ODIs against Ireland that are BS


Just read Robbos post , fair enough all these are parts of the global leagues structure. Its a bit of a squib summer but one England probably need to help reset.

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