Professional Rugby Board (PRB) ? / Project Reset

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Which Region should be merged/disbanded.

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Total Votes : 20

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Post by No9 on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 1:59 pm

So is the newly formed Professional Rugby Board (PRB) going to create stability in the Welsh Professional game or just be a stay of execution before the 4 regions get cut to 3 or even 2.

We don't have the funds in Wales to maintain the existing professional sides, but the problem is, cut one and that wont mean the remaining 3 get more revenue, as supporters and fans of a region will not simply support another is theirs are disbanded, as proved when they disbanded the Celtic Warriors.

I hate the fact, but we don't have the funds to keep professional rugby in Wales, and I foresee the demise of it looming.. Sad

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47348518?isBumped=0&postFreq=0&isEmpty=0&isProfane=0&tooLong=0&charCount=0&isAwaitingProcessPreMod=0&isSubmitted=1&filter=none&initial_page_size=10&postId=133850859#comment_133850859

I love the comment "He admitted an Ospreys merger with Cardiff Blues had been among the options explored in high-level Welsh rugby talks"... what Muppet thought that was going to work Erm

Thoughts....

Its all off again... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47461662

Lets hope thats the last we hear of this rubbish until the 6 Nations is over at least...


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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 2:05 pm

No9 wrote:I love the comment "He admitted an Ospreys merger with Cardiff Blues had been among the options explored in high-level Welsh rugby talks"... what Muppet thought that was going to work

The same muppets who thought a Pontypridd and Cardiff merger would work, then the same muppets who told the Ponty supporters to get behind their region, and started calling them all sorts of horrible names for not doing so.

If anything, a region will get demoted to a development region, where that will be though is anyone's guess.

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Post by No9 on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 2:20 pm

Doesn’t give confidence...does it.

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 2:23 pm

Notice I've been red barred again, what is it with people not liking the truth on here ? Rolling Eyes

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Post by No9 on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 2:37 pm

Did spot it....Tried to correct the injustice, by countering it.

I hardly post here anymore. I’d say it was like being in school on this site, but don’t think kids are as churlish as some posters on here...

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 2:52 pm

Welsh domestic rugby is on it's knees at the minute, well the professional game is anyway. Look at how Dragons were utterly embarrassed by Treviso, it's a joke.

Truth be told, a lot less people are giving two hoots about the regions nowadays. Putting the Pro14 on pay per view tele in this country was a big faux pas.

I would wager, although I do not have the figures that there are more people in Wales watching the Welsh prem than the Pro14. Ponty and Ebbw are on BBC Wales Friday night, I bet there will be more people watching that, than Connacht V Ospreys or Dragons V Ulster.

It's a shame, it really is, because the Pro14 was really starting to gather momentum outside of the areas the teams were based, I was really encouraged at one point. But it's almost as though the souls have been ripped out of the regions.

It will be interesting, but I can only see more Welsh talent playing in English or French leagues after this latest news. There is no way that Cardiff Blues, or the WRU will match what Bath are supposedly going to offer Gareth Anscombe.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 3:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
No9 wrote:I love the comment "He admitted an Ospreys merger with Cardiff Blues had been among the options explored in high-level Welsh rugby talks"... what Muppet thought that was going to work

The same muppets who thought a Pontypridd and Cardiff merger would work, then the same muppets who told the Ponty supporters to get behind their region, and started calling them all sorts of horrible names for not doing so.

If anything, a region will get demoted to a development region, where that will be though is anyone's guess.

What were they meant to do though? 

While I agree that the tribal nature of Welsh rugby and the lack of any pre-formed regions/provinces available as in Ireland means that such mergers were unlikely to keep people happy, what were the alternatives? 

The old Welsh Premiership was not proving to be fit for purpose. The organisation was shambolic (ok some would say nothing has changed) with some sides struggling to attract the proverbial two men and a dog (looking at you Ebbw Vale). There were not enough players to fill a full league of welsh teams which meant the standard of the league was poor and players were not being prepared for Wales. In Europe sides were often competitive at home, but regular thrashings of the sort that used to be handed out to Italian teams were common place (In the season before "regions" we saw Cardiff ship 75 points to Biarritz and lose 31-0 at home to Northampton, Newport ship 70 to Toulouse). Two teams went "on strike" for a season to try and engineer their way into the English League.

The old system was failing that something had to change. While the regions have not been especially successful, they have helped support a boom time for the international side. I do not believe you would have had as much success if the old ways had remained.

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 3:36 pm

LondonTiger wrote:While I agree that the tribal nature of Welsh rugby and the lack of any pre-formed regions/provinces available as in Ireland means that such mergers were unlikely to keep people happy, what were the alternatives?

There were plenty of alternative, we have district rugby in Wales, but truth be told the best one would have been North, Mid Wales, South East and South West. But the WRU were bankrupt and too many people wanted to take them to court, the WRU could not afford the fight.

LondonTiger wrote:The old system was failing that something had to change. While the regions have not been especially successful, they have helped support a boom time for the international side. I do not believe you would have had as much success if the old ways had remained.

Yes the old system was failing, and badly, but the regions were set-up for the benefit of the national side, which when you look at the face of it, Wales are now at least compatible on the international stage, but for me, the regions are being run by people with egos, they are not twp people, because they have made a lot of money, but, they let their egos get in the way of running a rugby club. Now most of these people either want out, or they want their money back.

I know it's hard to swallow, but we need to start again, from scratch. We have had over a decade now of mediocraty and a few highs, but nothing sustained, the interest is not forthcoming either, despite what people on here would have you believe.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 4:04 pm

Surely merging the two teams from the two biggest cities is madness.

Is Ponty not a commuter town of Cardiff, if it is it's not madness to put them together. Which Region would Ponty have preferred to have been paired with.  I assume Ospreys as I think Ponty hates the Dragons too.

Since Regionalism the most successful team on a European level has been one of the stand alone teams.  Scarlets as the other stand alone team has reached the semis twice of the H Cup.  Their attendances have also matched the other regional teams so it is not like the two stand alone teams have been poor compared to the others.

Scrapping Warriors was the right choice as they acted quickly and meant no drain on Welsh Rugby.

RCG doesn't seem to be close to a viable region and I am sure mid Wales (unless you mean the middle part of South Wales that is North of the two major cities) would be even worse for Regional Rugby. If the WRU had gone that route they would have been bankrupt in no time and the South would be more disenfranchised.

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 4:08 pm

Brendan wrote:RCG doesn't seem to be close to a viable region and I am sure mid Wales (unless you mean the middle part of South Wales that is North of the two major cities) would be even worse for Regional Rugby. If the WRU had gone that route they would have been bankrupt in no time and the South would be more disenfranchised.

The South would not be disenfranchised as the two regions would have contained two of Wales biggest cities.

The Mid Wales region could have incorporated all the valley towns and up to Brecon, there are a lot of people living there.

North Wales could have been just that, Newtown and upwards.

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Post by No9 on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 4:38 pm

Geographical layout of Wales would make that unworkable, as it would be so difficult to get to games in “mid” Wales.

Regional rugby was the best idea, but badly implemented.

We haven’t the funds in Wales to sustain professional rugby and we’ve just been using a sticking plaster approach.

We have to get down to 2 maybe 3 regions, but they have to be regions and not just super clubs which we have now. Each region, needs to be run/owned by the WRU as development for the national side and that’s where the professional players play, with the WRU deciding who plays where and limit the number of non qualified players, so we don’t get our international players overplayed or warming the bench for an All Black who’s building his retirement pot.

I agree with Dowlias, it’s broke and needs tearing up and starting again, but in all honesty.... with the limited money in the general public’s hands in Wales, I can’t see anyway of substaining a professional game, except letting the best players play outside of Wales, like the Welsh FA does.

Also agree, that selling broadcasting rights has put one more nail in the Welsh game.

To paraphrase uncle Eddie. This might be the best Welsh team ever, but it may also be the last successful Welsh team... Sad

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 4:41 pm

Brendan wrote:Surely merging the two teams from the two biggest cities is madness.

Is Ponty not a commuter town of Cardiff, if it is it's not madness to put them together. Which Region would Ponty have preferred to have been paired with.  I assume Ospreys as I think Ponty hates the Dragons too.

Since Regionalism the most successful team on a European level has been one of the stand alone teams.  Scarlets as the other stand alone team has reached the semis twice of the H Cup.  Their attendances have also matched the other regional teams so it is not like the two stand alone teams have been poor compared to the others.

Scrapping Warriors was the right choice as they acted quickly and meant no drain on Welsh Rugby.

RCG doesn't seem to be close to a viable region and I am sure mid Wales (unless you mean the middle part of South Wales that is North of the two major cities) would be even worse for Regional Rugby.  If the WRU had gone that route they would have been bankrupt in no time and the South would be more disenfranchised.
The Scarlets have great fans but have they already reached saturation point in terms of supporters? after their two great seasons, their wasn't a significant rise in attendance. I know they're based in a small town but is there scope for growth? They are still signing quality players who unfortunately haven't worked out so hopefully they bounce back after this season.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 5:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:RCG doesn't seem to be close to a viable region and I am sure mid Wales (unless you mean the middle part of South Wales that is North of the two major cities) would be even worse for Regional Rugby. If the WRU had gone that route they would have been bankrupt in no time and the South would be more disenfranchised.

The South would not be disenfranchised as the two regions would have contained two of Wales biggest cities.

The Mid Wales region could have incorporated all the valley towns and up to Brecon, there are a lot of people living there.

North Wales could have been just that, Newtown and upwards.

So the SE region would have played at the CAP, mainly be supported by Cardiff RFC supports at home games, probably had blue in their colour but definitely not Cardiff Super Club.

The SW Region would have played at Swansea RFC home ground (Maybe called the Ospreys) but definitely not Swansea Super Club.

The Mid region would be Celtic warriors but they wouldn't have had debts and no money to run the club like the one that actually happened and wouldn't have gone bust because no bad Scarlets to rob the money. They wouldn't of had Ponty (as you can't put Ponty in the valleys when it is closer to Cardiff than Newport) and I would assume Bridgend aswell.

These two new Regions without people would right now be costing less money than the two Regions they would have replaced and also be doing better in the league and Europe.  I guess they could have called the North team the Elephants and had them play in White.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 5:39 pm

Trying to get a professional top flight team based in the Valleys would be similar to SRU trying to establish a Borders team. Lots of interest but spread so thinly that trying to have a base and decent crowds is almost impossible as the individual towns are just too small.

If you were going to be brutal, as No9 suggests, you would probably have two teams covering either end of the M4. Operating like Munster the biggest games would be in Cardiff and Swansea (European, derbies) and a set number of games in outgrounds at Newport and Llanelli. 

Doubt that would go down well with anyone.

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Post by Eejit on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 5:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Trying to get a professional top flight team based in the Valleys would be similar to SRU trying to establish a Borders team. Lots of interest but spread so thinly that trying to have a base and decent crowds is almost impossible as the individual towns are just too small.

If you were going to be brutal, as No9 suggests, you would probably have two teams covering either end of the M4. Operating like Munster the biggest games would be in Cardiff and Swansea (European, derbies) and a set number of games in outgrounds at Newport and Llanelli. 

Doubt that would go down well with anyone.

Definitely this, but sometimes you have to do the unpopular thing for the good of the game. Love them or loath them, the regions will continue to be the development pathway to the Welsh national team, and running clubs as a business like in England is unsustainable for us all.

Success brings the fans in when relying on old loyalties isn't an option.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 6:02 pm

Oh jeez. Pontypridd wanted a region called Pontypridd playing in Ponty. I don’t expect them to support Cardiff blues if they’re too busy supporting Cardiff city. It can’t be a coincidence that they’re probably the most disliked fans in Wales, as hating everyone and everything outside of Ponty wasn’t the best way to get your point across; pretending they’re the victims of name-calling is unbelievably childish. Move on.

There certainly isn’t more people in Wales watching the premiership than there is professional rugby (the regions) and nothing to suggest there is. It’s taken some outsiders who are a little less informed to come in and actually speak the most sense, but when someone is recycling the same drivel for a number of years your efforts are futile.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 6:05 pm

LT wow you’re speaking so much sense. Also, the valleys are in South Wales. There’s never been a top flight club in mid-Wales; suggesting the WRU set up shop there, or stating that the mid-Wales regions should have been valleys teams is more fantasy talk.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 6:06 pm

I think the WRU should set standards for off field structures with things like attendance amounts, player development, financial ones aswell.

Every three years the regions would be assigned as a development, standard and advance or something like that.  This would be based on pre-determine criteria with the weighting of each area clear.  The Region and fans know what they need to do and also what they need to do to stay at that level.  If Regions get downgraded it is then not the WRUs fault so they save face.

Development is young guys go there for a year or two and then go to one of the other Regions if good.
Standard get ok funding but any international players are moved to the Advanced/focus Regions
Advance/focus have the internationals and thus better funding and most likely top European Rugby.

In Ireland Ulster may have got the same money but not the same support off the field in the 2000s.

If the targets are clear what they need to do over the 3 years to improve things, to get better support for the Regions and would only have themselves to blame if they got downgraded.  3 years would also be long enough to contract players and make plans.

Dropping Regions makes it harder to open them back up later. If Connacht had been closed there would now only be 3 Irish teams.  Because Connacht was kept open the IRFU were able to increase/reduce funding at any time they pleased.  The B team in Leinster was also weaker as those players were off in Connacht getting game time.  Now that is gone the Leinster Seconds are killing everyone. Connacht has been helped as much by non finacial support as the increased funding on it.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 6:19 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:LT wow you’re speaking so much sense. Also, the valleys are in South Wales. There’s never been a top flight club in mid-Wales; suggesting the WRU set up shop there, or stating that the mid-Wales regions should have been valleys teams is more fantasy talk.

I think from a logical point of view only Scarlets didn't make sense from the current four teams. Other than Wrexham they are the three biggest areas by a mile.

Then making the case for any fourth Region Scarlets has a good a case as anyone else had and had a single backer rather than a few clubs coming together.

Knowing what we know now and being realistic in terms of viability would we do anything different. Maybe not make the warriors as that was basically we have two teams left that no one wanted so stuck them together. Maybe gone regional the year after the rebel season and allowed Cardiff form a team with Ponty, and Swansea with Neath and Bridgend.
Also maybe done the Regions at the start of the Celtic league so that Regions were only associated with the league.

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Post by RiscaGame on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 6:26 pm

I’m not sure why there’s a comparison between Ebbw v Pontypridd and Dragons v Ulster, when they’re on different days. But if there’s so much interest in the Welsh Premiership, why are the attendances so poor? Merthyr are top of the league and act like Welsh rugby’s Man City and I’ve seen pictures of their games with not many in attendance. The other rugby team at RP only ever opens the Bisley stand for Newport games, whereas you at least get three open for Dragons. I really don’t get the obsession with comparisons, when the reality is there isn’t much interest in the Welsh Premiership.

A pro team in the Valleys isn’t going to happen, LT. It wouldn’t be based somewhere that would appease all supporters from whatever valley they live in for a start. Why would (for example) a Pontypridd supporter feel any more represented by a team based in Merthyr? I live in a valley and I wouldn’t say I would be better represented by a team like that.

Mid Wales rugby is so fanciful, it’s untrue. Where would it be based? There might well be a North Wales team one day, but there’s no guarantee it would be well supported. RGC don’t get good gates for their games, do they? You’d still find the same excuses about kick off times etc, particularly travelling from some parts of North Wales.

What other option was there for the league, but to take the best offer from Premier Sports? So a few people won’t pay £10 a month to watch it, well then I don’t know what they’re offering anyway when they want everything for free. The pro teams will attract new supporters the way they always do, by community initiatives, guards of honours etc, not by some programme on BBC 2 Wales that offered awful coverage anyway. They didn’t even offer any buildup to pro team games, just literally started the programme five minutes before kick off, with a disinterested Jonathan Davies and Charlo on commentary. Amazing.

You can’t start again. It might go to two or three teams, but I can’t see that for a while either. Like it or not, the teams currently with pro teams are the best set up for it. I’m not sure North Wales would really want to support what would basically be a Dragons team, if it moved up there. Dragons need a lot of work to build depth, so starting a new team or moving a team North isn’t guaranteed to be a success.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 6:46 pm

Closing any of the Regions would be bad.  If they want a region one day in North Wales stick it in the A league with a valleys team.  When the Dragon Bs are sticking 50 on them in front of 300 people they might pipe down.

I do think the Dragon will be downgraded to a development side but having the young stars in Wales might not be a bad thing.  Less pressure and more freedom to play.  Would losing the internationals and past it internationals for the young squad players at the other region be the end of the world.  Not sure how practical it would be but basing the u20s at the development Region might not be a bad thing either for a pathway point of view.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 6:49 pm

Paradoxically, the situation does not really seem to be harming Wales as an international entity.

That may be a false sense of security though. You could argue that Wales were a bit lax lustre in their first two games as a lot of their players were not exactly battle hardened by European competition prior to the start of the competition. They perhaps got away with it by not having the hardest of games up first and by the time they got to the England game, Gatland had knocked them into shape.

Longer term I think it will be hard for Wales to sustain themselves if they don't have productive domestic professional rugby. Players don't just want to play the international game and will get lured off abroad to bigger clubs and more money. The Welsh team won't get the access to them then, or any access at all if they maintain current rules on eligibility.

They really do need to sort this out, the whole fabric of the professional game in Wales and potentially for the other non-English and French countries may well depend on it.

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Post by The Oracle on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 7:03 pm

I’m not sure if people are aware but Pontypridd RFC have recently announced major financial issues and were about to go into administration. I believe there is a Just Giving page for people to contribute. I genuinely do not post this to gloat as I don’t want to see any club side go, but it does raise the question of how the Valleys region would be funded if arguably the valleys’ biggest side (and the one making the most noise about regional rugby) is about to go bust?


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Post by The Oracle on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 7:05 pm

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/shock-six-figure-sum-pontypridd-15840059

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Post by The Oracle on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 7:06 pm

https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/pontypridd-rfc2

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 7:17 pm

Merthyr next?

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Post by Eejit on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 7:19 pm

The Oracle wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/shock-six-figure-sum-pontypridd-15840059


Cheers Oracle. Didn't realise my headphones had unplugged (with the sound turned way up) and just about had a heart attack when the audio from the advert on that page started automatically.

New pants required.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 7:20 pm

Unicorns and rainbows comes to mind when describing non regional poster from wales who believe that saying something is facts for the future.

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Post by The Oracle on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 7:48 pm

Eejit wrote:
The Oracle wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/shock-six-figure-sum-pontypridd-15840059


Cheers Oracle. Didn't realise my headphones had unplugged (with the sound turned way up) and just about had a heart attack when the audio from the advert on that page started automatically.

New pants required.

Sorry! Sorry

Walesonline should come with some warnings - about both the poor content and the amount of pop ups and marketing videos, etc!
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Post by RiscaGame on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 9:51 pm

It is bad about Pontypridd. I’m sure Owen Smith could give a pretty good donation, as could others. Good luck to them.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 9:46 pm

So it is looking like a Scarlets/Ospreys merger and a North Wales team in their place.

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.

How is that likely to go down in Wales?

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Post by Kingshu on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 10:05 pm

Project Reset: Wales bosses to discuss Scarlets-Ospreys merger
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/rugby-union/47443612

Looks strange to me, the two most successful sides getting merged.

Always thought it was a mistake that the WRU allowed two stand alone clubs in Cardiff and Llanelli, but as time has passed you cannot go back and fix it.

Reading between the lines ,would like to know if this is that case, it appears Ospreys are in difficulty and its more the Scarlets are taking over the region like the way Cardiff did the Warriors. If true its a shame that the most successful team that did the most to embrace the regional concept, is being merged.

Will this work?
Is it the WRU wanting to create one super team, one average team and two development teams?
I'd have thought it was the Dragons that would have been merged.


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Post by BigGee on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 10:20 pm

I made a comment on this on the other thread, but this is likely to be worthy of its own discussion.

To me, as an outsider and with no loyalties to either team, if you accept that a merger is necessary, then to me this is the most obvious one to make as it could then genuinely be seen as the region of Western Wales.

The devil will no doubt be in the detail, what they will be called, where they play, who will play for them etc.

I have been through mergers a couple of times at work, when famous old hospitals were forced to merge with their neighbours and friendly rivals. It was awful, everyone hated it and lots of good staff moved on. The organisations in question though are still in existence and still providing quality health care and the grimness of the merging process has long been forgotten.

If supporters can see the bigger picture and take the long term view, there is potentially a good side to this. Easier said than done though, I was one of the ones who hated it and moved on!

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Post by Brendan on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 10:35 pm

https://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/rugby/ospreys-and-scarlets-set-to-merge-in-radical-overhaul-908699.html

Home games at PYS, Europe at Swansea.

Will we start to see this as the anti WRU team for the disenfranchised. Looks to me like it will be on a par with Leinster, Munster and Glasgow at least and will be a nice twist in the Pro14 arms race for top dog.

If they are successful they will be supported. If they aren't then all we will have is complaints.

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Post by Brendan on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 10:36 pm

Going on the squads now what is their starting 23

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Post by Kingshu on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 10:39 pm

Personally I think if the WRU are doing this they should completely rework it if they can buy out them all and start again.Something like keep one team in Cardiff it does have the population to make it work but try to break away from the Cardiff RFC identity and make its own.

Dragons would have the old Celtic warriors region added to the Dragons region, with a new rebrand, and games split between Bridgeend, Pontypridd and Newport, to try and build a new idently among the many that were left out of regionalism.

Scarlets and Ospreys (minus bridgend) areas combine, but you would need to kill both brands for the merger to work, otherwise you are just kidding fans, they will know in 5-10 years the Scarlet Ospreys will drop the Osreys name and revert to Scarlets, like Glasgow Caledonian, or Edinburgh Reivers.

Basically the new regions should stand out and be cutting ties to any one club in its region and represent them all. No nickname or strip, and try to appeal to everyone in the region.

Ospreys in their heyday did this and it was one of the most popular shirts in wales, with people wearing it further afield than Swansea. The new sides could replicate this. If someone wants to support Newport/Llanelli they can in the Welsh Prem, but these teams are feeder teams to the regions.

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Post by Eejit on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 10:43 pm

A combined Scarlets Ospreys XV would objectively be some side..

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Post by BigGee on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 10:50 pm

Presumably some of the players will be going off to North Wales though, it would not exactly give them a good start if all they get is the cast offs. They are going to need some established players to be acceptably competitive. The WRU is going to have to sell this to the public in North Wales as well as the Pro 14. The last thing the league needs as well is another seriously under performing team.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:03 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47443612

Its made the Beeb now as well.

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Post by Eejit on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:11 pm

The article seemed to indicate not Gee and maybe someone with some HR or legal experience could chime in, but presumably if ownership were transferring to a new company tupe regulations would allow any player under contract to leave for pastures new if they wished, whether there was time remaining on the deal or not. Those under central contracts I assume wouldn’t be affected.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:19 pm

Eejit wrote:The article seemed to indicate not Gee and maybe someone with some HR or legal experience could chime in, but presumably if ownership were transferring to a new company tupe regulations would allow any player under contract to leave for pastures new if they wished, whether there was time remaining on the deal or not. Those under central contracts I assume wouldn’t be affected.

I imagine that anyone under contract could hold out against a move should they wish and would probably have to be paid off if they did not agree to move.

However quite a few players are likely to be out of contract and others would possibly see the longer term career benefits of moving. They may be able to stay put on their existing contract, but they probably won't play very much rugby. The short term nature of most rugby contracts would mean that this situation would very quickly correct itself.

Some of the players, who may not want to go North could end up going to Cardiff and Newport as well. There should in theory be a knock on benefit in terms of player quality for those teams as well, maybe not immediately but hopefully in the longer term.


Last edited by BigGee on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Brendan on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:21 pm

My question is about European places.  Who would get which Welsh spot.  It wouldn't be fair if the Dragon got Osprey's spot as the third best Region and thus got a better ranking than Edinburgh. If Scarlets beat Connacht in the euro playoff would Connacht feel it was unfair if the Scarlets ceased to exist but the Super Region took the spot.

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Post by RiscaGame on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:21 pm

Ospreys was one of the most popular shirts in the UK, not Wales. But it’s naive to think it was because they weren’t tied to a club, even with that One True Region tagline. The reason they sold shirts etc was because they had a load of names like Shane and Henson, topped off with quality like Holah and Tiatia.

I don’t even know where to begin with that have Bridgend and Pontypridd being represented by Dragons idea.

I don’t know which players would want to move to North Wales, other than players who wouldn’t start for other pro teams. A lot of people will have settled where they are. I’m not sure whether established players would move and maybe players with families might not want to. Which may mean fringe players might move, but who knows. I really don’t get the timing of this.

Central contracts are on their way out.

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Post by BigGee on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:25 pm

You just think it would be crazy to try and get this rolling by next season.

Take a little bit of time and plan it properly. It might be the best thing in the long term, but it could go seriously wrong if they try and rush it.

At the moment there are still way more questions than answers

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Post by Steffan on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:30 pm

RiscaGame wrote:I don’t even know where to begin with that have Bridgend and Pontypridd being represented by Dragons idea

I have just totally dismissed that one myself so we actually agree on something for a change

In regards to this merger. I guess it makes sense for the team to be called Scarlets and all game are played at PYS
The Liberty is a football stadium and it shows at the games. That way also you get to keep heritage of a historical rugby club and I am sure the former Ospreys fans will be happy to jump on board eventually

I assume Cardiff Blues will stay as the big team of the east with the Dragons possibly being the development region

Still not entirely sure if a region in north Wales would work. Why can't any decent players who come from there go to the Scarlets which was the original plan back in 2003

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Post by RiscaGame on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:42 pm

Brendan wrote:My question is about European places.  Who would get which Welsh spot.  It wouldn't be fair if the Dragon got Osprey's spot as the third best Region and thus got a better ranking than Edinburgh. If Scarlets beat Connacht in the euro playoff would Connacht feel it was unfair if the Scarlets ceased to exist but the Super Region took the spot.

European spots? Thought that was done?

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Post by RiscaGame on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:52 pm

Steffan wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I don’t even know where to begin with that have Bridgend and Pontypridd being represented by Dragons idea

I have just totally dismissed that one myself so we actually agree on something for a change

In regards to this merger. I guess it makes sense for the team to be called Scarlets and all game are played at PYS
The Liberty is a football stadium and it shows at the games. That way also you get to keep heritage of a historical rugby club and I am sure the former Ospreys fans will be happy to jump on board eventually

I assume Cardiff Blues will stay as the big team of the east with the Dragons possibly being the development region

Still not entirely sure if a region in north Wales would work. Why can't any decent players who come from there go to the Scarlets which was the original plan back in 2003

Scarlets is the best set up as a rugby venue. I am not sure why they would need to play European games at Liberty Stadium, because it won’t win over Ospreys fans who are put out by this. I think training at Llandarcy and playing out of PYS is sufficient.

Dragons are set up to be a development team. According to Robin Davey, David Buttress is not settling for that though.

“Possible turnaround as the Dragons continue discussions with the WRU about taking majority control of the region into private ownership with chairman David Buttress taking the leading role”


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Post by RiscaGame on Mon 04 Mar 2019, 11:55 pm

Of course, it would take a lot to invest in Dragons with nothing in return. Unless the leisure complex etc is more than a pipe dream (which it doesn’t seem to be).

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:53 am

That would be a big ‘region’ - but a merger there makes sense. There’s always the option of merging the two in the east but 1; They want a region in the capital city. 2; Dragons are WRU-owned (both halves now) and they may have plans for that. I think it’s a better idea to keep the current 4 and look for ways to improve, invest, etc. Cutting to three, and then making one up north is a daft idea. There’s currently one semi-pro team in north Wales who aren’t that good, you can’t just expect to create a pro team from that and hit the ground running, they’d be twice as bad as Dragons. Their age-grade teams haven’t been great either, and usually get hammered by just the west or south side of one of the other 4; I also don’t see many of their players graduating and stepping up to pro rugby compared to the other 4 who do it regularly. I’m guessing they’d play where our U20s play which holds 6000, which we know from the teams in the south that isn’t sustainable. Such a huge risk - I think pro rugby in north wales is probably another decade away from being ready.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 10:12 am

Just my personal opinion, but merging Scarlets and Ospreys seems on the face of it the stupidest decision I've ever seen in rugby.

However, I say this without knowing what's going on in the background. Maybe the O's are being kicked out of the Liberty Stadium? Maybe the O's backers are deciding to cut and run and they'll go bust? If so then 1 team based at the PYS makes sense. But if the above is not the case then I just can't see why you'd merge the two most successful regions and not cut the Dragons. And that's coming from a Dragons fan. I get that the WRU own the Dragons but they're not going to lose money if they sold the Dragons tomorrow - in fact they'd make a tidy profit. Yet to get them up to the level of the Scarlets or Ospreys, plus trying to get a North Wales team up to pro level on and off the pitch, is going to take a hell of a lot of time, money and effort - which makes you wonder why not just keep both the Scarlets and Ospreys and bin the Dragons? That way they'd just need a bit of work on the Ospreys and focus their resources on N Wales if that's their big 'project'.
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