Professional Rugby Board (PRB) ? / Project Reset

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Which Region should be merged/disbanded.

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Total Votes : 20

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Post by No9 on Mon 25 Feb 2019, 1:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

So is the newly formed Professional Rugby Board (PRB) going to create stability in the Welsh Professional game or just be a stay of execution before the 4 regions get cut to 3 or even 2.

We don't have the funds in Wales to maintain the existing professional sides, but the problem is, cut one and that wont mean the remaining 3 get more revenue, as supporters and fans of a region will not simply support another is theirs are disbanded, as proved when they disbanded the Celtic Warriors.

I hate the fact, but we don't have the funds to keep professional rugby in Wales, and I foresee the demise of it looming.. Sad

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47348518?isBumped=0&postFreq=0&isEmpty=0&isProfane=0&tooLong=0&charCount=0&isAwaitingProcessPreMod=0&isSubmitted=1&filter=none&initial_page_size=10&postId=133850859#comment_133850859

I love the comment "He admitted an Ospreys merger with Cardiff Blues had been among the options explored in high-level Welsh rugby talks"... what Muppet thought that was going to work Erm

Thoughts....

Its all off again... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47461662

Lets hope thats the last we hear of this rubbish until the 6 Nations is over at least...


Last edited by No9 on Wed 06 Mar 2019, 2:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:07 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:So four regions...?

West Wales
South Wales
East Wales
North Wales

No affiliated cities or towns in their names.

With no supporters

According to LD theres going to be none soon anyway

And everybody on here was saying I was talking rubbish when said the regions and the Pro14 is struggling in Wales. Rolling Eyes

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:10 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If the Scarlets and Ospreys are made to merge, and Dragons are allowed to carry on, then this would be the biggest travesty of justice in Welsh rugby for over a decade.

How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

Ospreys and their academies have been at the heartbeat of the Welsh national side for years.

What a joke of a rugby nation we are. picard





Most of those did not come through the Dragons academies. In fact I would say that 90% of those players did not come through the Dragons academies.

A lot of those players came from the clubs prior, the Warriors and other countries.


I knew you'd move the goal posts, you tinker! That's why I specifically highlighted and pointed out your wording of 'provided' rather than 'developed' at the start. And I also divided up and split out the ones who never played for Wales after joining the Dragons.

Lots of them never came through any regional academy, actually. Players like Gough and Charvis, for example.
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:13 pm

Gough and Charvis did not come through any Dragons academies. Gough started off at Panteg then played for Pontypridd before joining Newport. Colin Charvis started at London Welsh and spent most of his career at Swansea.

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:15 pm

Yet you don’t acknowledge how daft it is to try starting a new pro team, when there is “little interest in the Pro 14”.

Also, maybe people would agree with your views if you didn’t try to suggest things like there is more interest in the Welsh Premiership than the pro teams.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:15 pm

The Oracle wrote:I knew you'd move the goal posts, you tinker! That's why I specifically highlighted and pointed out your wording of 'provided' rather than 'developed' at the start. And I also divided up and split out the ones who never played for Wales after joining the Dragons.

But they have not provided any of those players, OK, perhaps I should have used the word developed, but that just reinforces my point.

Look Dragons have developed some beauties for Wales, Faletau, Lydiate, and as of late Cory Hill and Wainwright.

But they are nowhere near what Ospreys have developed for Wales.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:18 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Yet you don’t acknowledge how daft it is to try starting a new pro team, when there is “little interest in the Pro 14”.

Also, maybe people would agree with your views if you didn’t try to suggest things like there is more interest in the Welsh Premiership than the pro teams.

Where have I said it is a good idea to start a new pro team ? I think it's a bonkers idea to scrap Ospreys for Dragons, that's all.

I reckon there is more interest in the Welsh prem these days. Look, I do not have the veiwing figures, but I would wager that more people in Wales that are watching the Welsh prem on BBC on a Friday night there are watching the Pro14 on PS.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:22 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I've posted this a number of times over the years, but what they should have done was have some sort of pernit or licence system (like rugby league, perhaps?).  WRU allows 4 clubs to represent Wales in the Pro league and Europe.  All clubs get a chance but have to submit a bid/business case and they are assessed on merit.  Let's just say it's a 5 year licence and let's just say in 2003 the best bids were Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli.  The other clubs then make up the semi-pro league.  If at the end of the 5 years they're all doing well then the licence gets renewed.  If a team is struggling (let's just say it is Newport) then the licence is up in the air and another team (e.g. Pontypridd, North Wales) gets to apply and if they make a good case then they get the 5 years licence.  Newport drops down and has to get their sh*t in order in the hope they can get back to the pro league in the future.  That way we get teams with proper support bases and history.  And of course anyone from outside can support them (just like me supporting Aston Villa) - support isn't confined to the town/city.  They'll have a real identify and not a manufactured one.  Plus it will give others the chance to feel they can step up and out of semi-pro and will keep all those with a licence on their toes because of the real threat of 'relegation'.

The problem with that is that none of the semi-pro clubs would be able to afford the players required to succeed as one of the pro four. What use would it be if the pro players of the worst team of the four just transfer over to the newly-promoted club every time? And the semi-pro players who have earned their club the right to be one of the pro four, are they just left to play semi-pro rugby for the relegated team?


Some good points, LP. But the alternative is the situation we have now where a team struggling to attract sponsors, support, funding, etc. is just trapped at the bottom with no way out. A vicious circle. With a licence a team would have to prove to be in a better position to offer an alternative. If they couldn't then the cr*p team wouldn't be replaced. But if they could then at least you'd have a new injection of life and it actually gives the sem-pro teams something to aim for. The new side could pick who they wanted. Doesn't have to be the dross that just got relegated!
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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:I knew you'd move the goal posts, you tinker! That's why I specifically highlighted and pointed out your wording of 'provided' rather than 'developed' at the start. And I also divided up and split out the ones who never played for Wales after joining the Dragons.

But they have not provided any of those players, OK, perhaps I should have used the word developed, but that just reinforces my point.

Look Dragons have developed some beauties for Wales, Faletau, Lydiate, and as of late Cory Hill and Wainwright.

But they are nowhere near what Ospreys have developed for Wales.


I never said they were. This is just you squirming again and further moving the goal posts. Proof read your work before submitting if you don't want to be pulled up on it! YOU said you could count the players on two hands. That is utter BS and now you're back tracking.

Doesn't matter where they came from originally. If they maintained that level while at the Dragons, and Wales then selected them, then the Dragons played a role in developing them for team wales even if it wasn't developing them as a kid.
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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Gough and Charvis did not come through any Dragons academies. Gough started off at Panteg then played for Pontypridd before joining Newport. Colin Charvis started at London Welsh and spent most of his career at Swansea.


I never said they did. I said they didn't come through ANY academy as academies weren't around then. Jesus wept.
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Post by RiscaGame on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:27 pm

But that wouldn’t prove interest. It would just mean people want everything for free, rather than pay £10 a month. Attendances of games don’t back up that the Premiership is more appealing than the pro teams.

It’s pointless going on about culling anybody really then, if you aren’t advocating a North Walian team. Especially when it isn’t known yet whether Ospreys were skint, or whether the WRU want 2+2 teams. Then there’s things like the potential to develop the cabbage patch at Rodney Parade. It’s not as easy to say why shouldn’t Dragons be culled, purely on success etc.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:36 pm

Oracle, you are hard work on here, honestly you are. I am not squirming, produced/developed, whats the difference ?

From your list, here are the ones that your beloved Dragons have developed/produced in 16 years:-

Lloyd Burns
Andrew Coombs (arguably)
Dan Lydiate
Taulupe Faletau
Hallam Amos
Tyler Morgan
Cory Hill
Ollie Griffiths
Leon Brown
Elliot Dee
Aaron Wainwright

So that is 11, one more than I can count on both hands, well done, 16 years and 11 players developed for the national side. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:41 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Oracle, you are hard work on here, honestly you are. I am not squirming, produced/developed, whats the difference ?

You said 'provided'!

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 3:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Oracle, you are hard work on here, honestly you are. I am not squirming, produced/developed, whats the difference ?

From your list, here are the ones that your beloved Dragons have developed/produced in 16 years:-

Lloyd Burns
Andrew Coombs (arguably)
Dan Lydiate
Taulupe Faletau
Hallam Amos
Tyler Morgan
Cory Hill
Ollie Griffiths
Leon Brown
Elliot Dee
Aaron Wainwright

So that is 11, one more than I can count on both hands, well done, 16 years and 11 players developed for the national side. Rolling Eyes

So they have to be developed from childhood to count?!  Utter boll*cks. What abut these???  All developed at the Dragons too.

Ian Gough - come on!  Only 2 years at Ponty and then 7 at Newport before 4 with the Dragons.  Who really developed him?!
Rhys Thomas - the prop.
Steve Jones - the hooker.
Luke Charteris
Jason Forster
Richard Parks - started at Newport.
Andy Marinos - got capped 3 years after joining Dragons.  That's enough time to develop him, surely?
Hal Luscombe
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:02 pm

Ian Gough, came through at Pontypridd played for 9 years before Dragons
Rhys Thomas which one ? The South African one ? Or the Pontypridd/Cardiff one ?
Steve Jones, came through at Bridgend
Luke Charteris, OK you can have that one.
Richard Parkes came through at Newport, then Pontypridd, then the Warriors.......
Andy Marinos South African
Hal Luscombe South African

Good God you will lay claim to anyone who has been shopping at the Kingsway you would. laughing


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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:05 pm

Did I read somewhere that the new Super Region would get more funding than the two remaining teams?

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Did I read somewhere that the new Super Region would get more funding than the two remaining teams?

It wouldn't surprise me. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Brendan on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:12 pm

If there was a full region  reset we would end up with

East based in Newport (Just the Dragons would have been called Newport Super Club by non fans)
South based in Cardiff (Just the blues would have been call Cardiff Super club)
West based in Swansea (What is suggested now but rewards the team that is folding would have been called Swansea Super Club)
North Wales (people wanting it for ages now giving out now they have it)

The complaining of we have this mess because of those two stand alone Clubs gets mentioned all the time but let's look at History rather than imagined facts

Warriors folded - Ponty RFC now in trouble
Dragons folded in two parts
Ospreys folded in two parts - Neath going

Cardiff 2 Challange cups
Llanelli 2 HC semis - has grown support as well as the others Regions even with less people to entice.

So to blame the two money men who have struck around the longest is a bit rich.  They have developed their Regions at the same rate as the others.  Its not like we ended up with this mess because they were the first two teams to fold

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Post by Brendan on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:14 pm

Also the talk of scrapping the Dragons, they cover a large area and population

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:15 pm

Brendan wrote:Also the talk of scrapping the Dragons, they cover a large area and population

Not as much as Swansea and the surrounding areas.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Ian Gough, came through at Pontypridd played for 9 years before Dragons
Rhys Thomas which one ? The South African one ? Or the Pontypridd/Cardiff one ?
Steve Jones, came through at Bridgend
Luke Charteris, OK you can have that one.
Richard Parkes came through at Newport, then Pontypridd, then the Warriors.......
Andy Marinos South African
Hal Luscombe South African

Good God you will lay claim to anyone who has been shopping at the Kingsway you would. laughing


Ian Gough played for Newport 96-2003 and then the Dragons. Pontypridd was 98-2000 (i.e. in between stints at Newport).
Rhys Thomas (South African) and Hal Luscombe were brought over by Tony Brown and worked in his factory. They were young.
Marinos - fair enough, but he was 'improved' by Newport/Dragons shall we say Wink
Richard Parks so Newport youth/academy. Cheers thought so.


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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:16 pm

Also, the Ospreys look as though they are not lying down:-

Ospreys Chairman resigns over WRU's "catastrophic mismanagement" of Project Reset.

Ospreys long-standing benefactor Mike James today resigned as chairman of the regional side, citing the WRU’s “catastrophic mismanagement” of efforts to overhaul the game.

James made the announcement at the start of the today’s PRB meeting in (Cardiff), addressing the management group whose WRU-led restructuring plans have resulted in conjecture over the future of the regions, including the Ospreys.

Speaking after his resignation today, Mike James said:

“None of us doubt that regional rugby requires restructuring in order to ensure the long-term sustainability of the game. The way in which this has been handled however is nothing short of chaotic, resulting in a fatal combination of uncertainty, conjecture and insecurity now hanging over regional rugby’s future.

“To methodically, rationally and impartially map out the future of regional rugby is one thing, to fatally wound it with an ill-judged, cavalier process is another. We now have the worst of all worlds - a lack of clarity, a lack of transparency and a total inability to plan ahead. We can no longer make sound rugby or business decisions and nor can our players or commercial partners. Project Reset has become Project Inept.

“I cannot and will not be a party to this level of catastrophic mismanagement and today I’ve make the decision to stand down as both chairman and a director of the Ospreys, surrendering my position on the PRB.”

Mike James is to be succeeded as chairman by fellow Ospreys benefactor Rob Davies who, like James, has injected millions into the Ospreys, helping it become the most successful Welsh side in the regional game. It is understood that Davies will start his new role by overseeing a legal and financial forensic review of the WRU’s actions in administrating Project Reset.

Amongst the concerns to be investigated is the independence of the WRU’s role given its conflict of interests, the lack of appropriate transparency and adequate governance in the Project Reset process, as well as inducements by officers of the WRU for the regional side to commit further private funds to the game whilst acting against its interests.

Turning to the continued future of the restructuring of the regional game Mike James finished by saying said:

“The only responsible way forward is to now accelerate the plans for a holistic and meaningful restructuring of the game, not delay them or force asymmetric outcomes to emerge. Certainty has to be restored to the game and quickly. The restructuring process itself has to be revisited, with appropriate checks and balances, independent oversight and transparency. We already have so many disadvantages in keeping pace with the professional game, we don’t need more.”

ENDS.

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/Home/Page

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:18 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Ian Gough, came through at Pontypridd played for 9 years before Dragons
Rhys Thomas which one ? The South African one ? Or the Pontypridd/Cardiff one ?
Steve Jones, came through at Bridgend
Luke Charteris, OK you can have that one.
Richard Parkes came through at Newport, then Pontypridd, then the Warriors.......
Andy Marinos South African
Hal Luscombe South African

Good God you will lay claim to anyone who has been shopping at the Kingsway you would. laughing


Ian Gough played for Newport 96-2003 and then the Dragons.  Pontypridd was 98-2000 (i.e. in between stints at Newport).
Rhys Thomas (South African) and Hal Luscombe were brought over by Tony Brown and worked in his factory.  They were young.
Marinos - fair enough, but he was 'improved' by Newport/Dragons shall we say Wink
Richard Parks so Newport youth/academy.  Cheers thought so.



Rhys Thomas (South African) and Hal Luscombe were brought over by Tony Brown and worked in his factory.  They were young. That was Newport though not Dragons.


Ian Gough played for Newport 96-2003 and then the Dragons.  Pontypridd was 98-2000 (i.e. in between stints at Newport). That was Newport though not Dragons.

Richard Parks so Newport youth/academy.  Cheers thought so. That was Newport though not Dragons.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:20 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Did I read somewhere that the new Super Region would get more funding than the two remaining teams?


Well yes, otherwise there would be no point in a restructure if they'd all just be on the same. That would be like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic! The whole point seems to be to get some teams more competitive in Europe. So some need to be funded more resulting in some funded less. My guess - Blues and West Super Club with more and Dragons and North Wales with less (i.e. become development team).

What does the Pro14 think of Wales entering 2 development teams - likely worse than the Dragons currently!

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:21 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Ian Gough, came through at Pontypridd played for 9 years before Dragons
Rhys Thomas which one ? The South African one ? Or the Pontypridd/Cardiff one ?
Steve Jones, came through at Bridgend
Luke Charteris, OK you can have that one.
Richard Parkes came through at Newport, then Pontypridd, then the Warriors.......
Andy Marinos South African
Hal Luscombe South African

Good God you will lay claim to anyone who has been shopping at the Kingsway you would. laughing


Ian Gough played for Newport 96-2003 and then the Dragons.  Pontypridd was 98-2000 (i.e. in between stints at Newport).
Rhys Thomas (South African) and Hal Luscombe were brought over by Tony Brown and worked in his factory.  They were young.
Marinos - fair enough, but he was 'improved' by Newport/Dragons shall we say Wink
Richard Parks so Newport youth/academy.  Cheers thought so.



Rhys Thomas (South African) and Hal Luscombe were brought over by Tony Brown and worked in his factory.  They were young. That was Newport though not Dragons.


Ian Gough played for Newport 96-2003 and then the Dragons.  Pontypridd was 98-2000 (i.e. in between stints at Newport). That was Newport though not Dragons.

Richard Parks so Newport youth/academy.  Cheers thought so. That was Newport though not Dragons.

So how can you claim some were developed by Pontypridd or Bridgen then, while I can't claim the one's developed by Newport???

So are you only counting ones developed by regional academies, which came out in.... 2005ish?
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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:30 pm

Oracle, it's a bit of a stretch to claim people who were developed at clubs before the regions were even a thought.

Like I said, you would claim anybody who has been shopping in Newport. Rolling Eyes

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Oracle, it's a bit of a stretch to claim people who were developed at clubs before the regions were even a thought.

Like I said, you would claim anybody who has been shopping in Newport. Rolling Eyes


I agree. But perhaps be a little clearer next time when you say 'players they have provided for the national team since they were formed' (in 2003), when you actually mean the number of players from the regional academy (formed around 2005 I think) that have gone on to represent Wales. Small but important distinction here.
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Post by marty2086 on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:41 pm

Professional Rugby Board (PRB) ? / Project Reset - Page 3 1347041234

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:43 pm

This back-and-forth about how many players the Dragons have developed / produced / provided isn't getting us anywhere, and in any case, no one doubts that the Dragons have developed / produced / provided fewer players to the Test side than the other three regions since 2003. But evidently that's not what the WRU are basing this restructuring on.

Dowlais, you accept that the Dragons have had more players called up over the last couple of seasons, and there's always a decent Dragons contingent in the under-20s these days, so could it possibly be that the WRU are looking at how the Dragons' academy is doing now, rather than how it did in 2008, or 2012?

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Post by Brendan on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 4:51 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also, the Ospreys look as though they are not lying down:-

Ospreys Chairman resigns over WRU's "catastrophic mismanagement" of Project Reset.

Ospreys long-standing benefactor Mike James today resigned as chairman of the regional side, citing the WRU’s “catastrophic mismanagement” of efforts to overhaul the game.

James made the announcement at the start of the today’s PRB meeting in (Cardiff), addressing the management group whose WRU-led restructuring plans have resulted in conjecture over the future of the regions, including the Ospreys.

Speaking after his resignation today, Mike James said:

“None of us doubt that regional rugby requires restructuring in order to ensure the long-term sustainability of the game.  The way in which this has been handled however is nothing short of chaotic, resulting in a fatal combination of uncertainty, conjecture and insecurity now hanging over regional rugby’s future.

“To methodically, rationally and impartially map out the future of regional rugby is one thing, to fatally wound it with an ill-judged, cavalier process is another.  We now have the worst of all worlds - a lack of clarity, a lack of transparency and a total inability to plan ahead.  We can no longer make sound rugby or business decisions and nor can our players or commercial partners.  Project Reset has become Project Inept.

“I cannot and will not be a party to this level of catastrophic mismanagement and today I’ve make the decision to stand down as both chairman and a director of the Ospreys, surrendering my position on the PRB.”

Mike James is to be succeeded as chairman by fellow Ospreys benefactor Rob Davies who, like James, has injected millions into the Ospreys, helping it become the most successful Welsh side in the regional game. It is understood that Davies will start his new role by overseeing a legal and financial forensic review of the WRU’s actions in administrating Project Reset.

Amongst the concerns to be investigated is the independence of the WRU’s role given its conflict of interests, the lack of appropriate transparency and adequate governance in the Project Reset process, as well as inducements by officers of the WRU for the regional side to commit further private funds to the game whilst acting against its interests.

Turning to the continued future of the restructuring of the regional game Mike James finished by saying said:

“The only responsible way forward is to now accelerate the plans for a holistic and meaningful restructuring of the game, not delay them or force asymmetric outcomes to emerge.  Certainty has to be restored to the game and quickly.  The restructuring process itself has to be revisited, with appropriate checks and balances, independent oversight and transparency.  We already have so many disadvantages in keeping pace with the professional game, we don’t need more.”

ENDS.

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/Home/Page

Is this not a case of its not my fault lads we had no money and the WRU wouldn't give us any. Blame the Union not the board

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Post by Brendan on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:Also the talk of scrapping the Dragons, they cover a large area and population

Not as much as Swansea and the surrounding areas.

Can you tell be the area and population of each Region to back this up

Second how would you have broken up 3 Southern Regions. Would you have merged the Dragons and Scarlets

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:16 pm

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:Also the talk of scrapping the Dragons, they cover a large area and population

Not as much as Swansea and the surrounding areas.

Can you tell be the area and population of each Region to back this up

Second how would you have broken up 3 Southern Regions.  Would you have merged the Dragons and Scarlets

No, I would have merged Dragons with Cardiff, and left the other two as they were.

But from the outset, I would have gone with the original plan of West Wales, East Wales, Valleys/Mid Wales and North Wales.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:18 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:This back-and-forth about how many players the Dragons have developed / produced / provided isn't getting us anywhere, and in any case, no one doubts that the Dragons have developed / produced / provided fewer players to the Test side than the other three regions since 2003. But evidently that's not what the WRU are basing this restructuring on.

Dowlais, you accept that the Dragons have had more players called up over the last couple of seasons, and there's always a decent Dragons contingent in the under-20s these days, so could it possibly be that the WRU are looking at how the Dragons' academy is doing now, rather than how it did in 2008, or 2012?

First off you start by saying that it is not getting us anywhere, then you ask me that question. Headscratch


Dragons have upped their game on that front as of late though, and fair play to them.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:19 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Oracle, it's a bit of a stretch to claim people who were developed at clubs before the regions were even a thought.

Like I said, you would claim anybody who has been shopping in Newport. Rolling Eyes


I agree.  But perhaps be a little clearer next time when you say 'players they have provided for the national team since they were formed' (in 2003), when you actually mean the number of players from the regional academy (formed around 2005 I think) that have gone on to represent Wales.  Small but important distinction here.

Not like you to split hairs when you are in a bind. Whistle

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:21 pm

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:Also the talk of scrapping the Dragons, they cover a large area and population

Not as much as Swansea and the surrounding areas.

Can you tell be the area and population of each Region to back this up

Second how would you have broken up 3 Southern Regions.  Would you have merged the Dragons and Scarlets

The internet is your friend for answers to this. OK

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:23 pm

http://www.ospreysrugby.com/News/Article/54262

“The Ospreys are NOT on the verge of merging with the Scarlets.  

Like the other M4 regions, the Ospreys were informed by the WRU that their decision was to create a new region in the North and this would necessitate one going in the South.

Beyond this, the regions have been encouraged to enter unilateral discussions to try and self-broker an outcome.  Rather than every option being on the table, only one has transpired - which region should go.”



Last edited by maestegmafia on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:23 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:This back-and-forth about how many players the Dragons have developed / produced / provided isn't getting us anywhere, and in any case, no one doubts that the Dragons have developed / produced / provided fewer players to the Test side than the other three regions since 2003. But evidently that's not what the WRU are basing this restructuring on.

Dowlais, you accept that the Dragons have had more players called up over the last couple of seasons, and there's always a decent Dragons contingent in the under-20s these days, so could it possibly be that the WRU are looking at how the Dragons' academy is doing now, rather than how it did in 2008, or 2012?

First off you start by saying that it is not getting us anywhere, then you ask me that question. Headscratch


Dragons have upped their game on that front as of late though, and fair play to them.

That's what I mean though. The WRU are probably looking at how the Dragons academy is doing now, not how it's done over its history. The Dragons won the under-18s competition recently, for instance.

I think it's horrible what's happening to the Ospreys, and I'd have few complaints if they called time on the Dragons, but there hasn't been an official announcement yet, not to mention a fuller explanation of why they're doing what they're doing, so I don't see the point of saying that the Ospreys have produced more players for Wales than the Dragons have. No one's arguing otherwise. It's not news to anyone.

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Post by Brendan on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 5:53 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:Also the talk of scrapping the Dragons, they cover a large area and population

Not as much as Swansea and the surrounding areas.

Can you tell be the area and population of each Region to back this up

Second how would you have broken up 3 Southern Regions.  Would you have merged the Dragons and Scarlets

No, I would have merged Dragons with Cardiff, and left the other two as they were.

But from the outset, I would have gone with the original plan of West Wales, East Wales, Valleys/Mid Wales and North Wales.

So by your own logic population isn't important nor is closeness to another area.

If you had of gone with your set-up orginally who would be now funding these Regions
Warriors bust, Ponty on its way
Dragons bust
Ospreys on its way, Neath bust,
Blues and Scarlets money men wouldn't be here as they only wanted to fund their Super Clubs. Ironically these are now the Men holding up the beloved private system and cleaning up some of the mess left by others

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:04 pm

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:Also the talk of scrapping the Dragons, they cover a large area and population

Not as much as Swansea and the surrounding areas.

Can you tell be the area and population of each Region to back this up

Second how would you have broken up 3 Southern Regions.  Would you have merged the Dragons and Scarlets

No, I would have merged Dragons with Cardiff, and left the other two as they were.

But from the outset, I would have gone with the original plan of West Wales, East Wales, Valleys/Mid Wales and North Wales.

So by your own logic population isn't important nor is closeness to another area.

If you had of gone with your set-up orginally who would be now funding these Regions
Warriors bust, Ponty on its way
Dragons bust
Ospreys on its way, Neath bust,
Blues and Scarlets money men wouldn't be here as they only wanted to fund their Super Clubs. Ironically these are now the Men holding up the beloved private system and cleaning up some of the mess left by others
.


The Dragons weren’t bust. That’s twice you’ve said it! Their owners decided to sell to the WRU. But they weren’t bust.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Did I read somewhere that the new Super Region would get more funding than the two remaining teams?

I believe a team gets more money for having more internationals on their books, and presumably the new super region would have a lot. Perhaps it’s a system similar to England where the RFU pays the clubs for international players.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:08 pm

On another note, Twitter is absolutely awash with stories, rumours, arguments, slanging matches, etc. about project reset. As you can imagine. Fans, players, ex-players - all getting involved. And our very own PhilBB is at the heart of it! He’s even asking assessmbly AMs to ‘follow the cash and the documents’ that might implicate the Welsh Government in promises of public funding for the North Wales region! It’s all rather exciting, in a way!
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Post by BamBam on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:13 pm

Jesus christ the man has 165000 tweets whining about Welsh Rugby

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Post by Kingshu on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:29 pm

Looks like the WRU will get what they wanted a while back of two super teams (Ospreys/Scarlets and Cardiff) and two development teams (Dragons and RCG 1404) the two better financed super teams will be good for the league, but having two development teams (ie two worse than dragons level teams) will be poor. Personally I think the League has moved past the point where development teams help it. Think in a few years the other Pro 14 teams will be putting pressure on Wales to drop to 3 teams and letting a Georgian/SA/tier 2 nation have the spot. After all we cannot have 4 poor teams, Dragons, Rcg1404, Zebre, southern kings. It would reflect poorly on the PRO 16 (by then) when sponsorship, season tickets and TV money could be effected. If Wales has two of the poor team its them that will lose out.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:38 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Did I read somewhere that the new Super Region would get more funding than the two remaining teams?


Well yes, otherwise there would be no point in a restructure if they'd all just be on the same.  That would be like rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic!  The whole point seems to be to get some teams more competitive in Europe.  So some need to be funded more resulting in some funded less.  My guess - Blues and West Super Club with more and Dragons and North Wales with less (i.e. become development team).  

What does the Pro14 think of Wales entering 2 development teams - likely worse than the Dragons currently!


I had assumed that the development team would get less, just was not sure what was happening with the other 3. Thought I had read that the aim was to give one team, the merged one I again assumed, the funding to compete at the top level in Europe. This of course is not taking funds from the two non merged teams, just allocating less to the development side.

Makes sense, dependent on WRUs objectives.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:50 pm

If you're merging Ospreys and Scarlets wouldn't it be a good idea to send some players to Dragons? You can't merge the two squads and keep them all there, especially with the depth that Scarlets have built up.

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Post by Eejit on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:57 pm

Agree with posters above in that having development teams in the league really doesn’t help anybody. Not sure what good getting eaten alive by there leagues big beasts will do for development.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 6:59 pm

Ospreys chairman has quit. Cites monumental mismanagement of the whole process by the WRU. Apparently announced it at the start of the big PRB meeting this morning. He’s pumped milllions in and has now walked away.

The new chairman, another Ospreys investor, has indicated that they will be going over everything with a fine tooth comb - leagally, speaking. So sounds like some sort of leagal action might be in the offing.

So that’s the Dragons investors chucking the towel in (Tony Brown and Hazell), the Blues (Peter Thomas) and now the Ospreys chairman. Ouch!
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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 7:02 pm

Ospreys had investors? What a load good they've done in the last few years/since it's formation! clap

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Post by The Oracle on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 7:09 pm

The latest coming out is that the clubs brought the merger proposal to the table, not the WRU. Gatland is quoted saying the same too.

The plot thickens.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 7:10 pm

It was quicker to copy and paste from wiki, but here are their squads.

Ospreys:

Scott Baldwin ‡  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Scott Otten  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Sam Parry  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Ifan Phillips  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Tom Botha  Prop  South Africa South Africa  
Maʻafu Fia  Prop  Tonga Tonga  
Gheorghe Gajion  Prop  Moldova Moldova  
Alex Jeffries  Prop  Wales Wales  
Rhodri Jones  Prop  Wales Wales  
Nicky Smith  Prop  Wales Wales  
Gareth Thomas  Prop  Wales Wales  
Lloyd Ashley  Lock  Wales Wales  
Adam Beard  Lock  Wales Wales  
Bradley Davies ‡  Lock  Wales Wales  
Alun Wyn Jones ‡  Lock  Wales Wales  
Giorgi Nemsadze   Lock  Georgia (country) Georgia  
James Ratti  Lock  Wales Wales  
Dan Baker  Back row  Wales Wales  
Olly Cracknell  Back row  Wales Wales  
Sam Cross  Back row  Wales Wales  
Will Jones  Back row  Wales Wales  
James King  Back row  Wales Wales  
Dan Lydiate ‡  Back row  Wales Wales  
Rob McCusker  Back row  Wales Wales  
Justin Tipuric (c)  Back row  Wales Wales  
Guido Volpi  Back row  Argentina Argentina  

Matthew Aubrey  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Aled Davies  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Tom Habberfield  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Harri Morgan  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Reuben Morgan-Williams  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Sam Davies  Fly-half  Wales Wales  
Luke Price  Fly-half  Wales Wales  
Cory Allen  Centre  Wales Wales  
James Hook  Centre  Wales Wales  
Joe Thomas  Centre  Wales Wales  
Tiaan Thomas-Wheeler  Centre  Wales Wales  
Owen Watkin  Centre  Wales Wales  
Scott Williams  Centre  Wales Wales  
Hanno Dirksen*  Wing  South Africa South Africa  
Keelan Giles  Wing  Wales Wales  
Lesley Klim  Wing  Namibia Namibia  
Luke Morgan  Wing  Wales Wales  
George North ‡  Wing  Wales Wales  
Tom Williams  Wing  Wales Wales  
Dan Evans  Fullback  Wales Wales  

Scarlets:

Taylor Davies  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Ryan Elias  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Dafydd Hughes  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Marc Jones  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Ken Owens  Hooker  Wales Wales  
Dylan Evans*  Prop  Australia Australia  
Rob Evans  Prop  Wales Wales  
Rhys Fawcett  Prop  Wales Wales  
Simon Gardiner  Prop  Wales Wales  
Wyn Jones  Prop  Wales Wales  
Scott Jenkins  Prop  Wales Wales  
Werner Kruger  Prop  South Africa South Africa  
Samson Lee ‡  Prop  Wales Wales  
Phil Price  Prop  Wales Wales  
Javan Sebastian  Prop  Wales Wales  
Steffan Thomas  Prop  Wales Wales  
Jake Ball ‡  Lock  Wales Wales  
David Bulbring  Lock  South Africa South Africa  
Steve Cummins  Lock  Australia Australia  
Josh Helps  Lock  Wales Wales  
Tom Price*  Lock  England England  
Lewis Rawlins  Lock  Wales Wales  
Will Boyde  Back row  Wales Wales  
Uzair Cassiem  Back row  South Africa South Africa  
James Davies  Back row  Wales Wales  
Dan Davis  Back row  Wales Wales  
Shaun Evans  Back row  Wales Wales  
Ed Kennedy*  Back row  Australia Australia  
Josh Macleod  Back row  Wales Wales  
Tom Phillips  Back row  Wales Wales  
Aaron Shingler  Back row  Wales Wales  
Blade Thomson  Back row  New Zealand New Zealand  

Gareth Davies ‡  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Jonathan Evans  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Kieran Hardy  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Sam Hidalgo-Clyne  Scrum-half  Scotland Scotland  
Declan Smith  Scrum-half  Wales Wales  
Dan Jones  Fly-half  Wales Wales  
Angus O'Brien  Fly-half  Wales Wales  
Rhys Patchell  Fly-half  Wales Wales  
Paul Asquith  Centre  Australia Australia  
Corey Baldwin  Centre  Wales Wales  
Jonathan Davies ‡  Centre  Wales Wales  
Kieron Fonotia  Centre  Samoa Samoa  
Steffan Hughes  Centre  Wales Wales  
Hadleigh Parkes  Centre  Wales Wales  
Ryan Conbeer  Wing  Wales Wales  
Steff Evans  Wing  Wales Wales  
Johnny McNicholl  Wing  New Zealand New Zealand  
Ioan Nicholas  Wing  Wales Wales  
Tom Prydie  Wing  Wales Wales  
Clayton Blommetjies  Fullback  South Africa South Africa  
Leigh Halfpenny ‡  Fullback  Wales Wales  
Tomi Lewis  Fullback  Wales Wales  
Morgan Williams  Fullback  Wales Wales

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 7:14 pm

So how does it work merging two with that many internationals? You surely don't need 4 international locks at one team, that also leaves the likes of Bulbring, Cummins, Kennedy; who are at the Scarlets as cover. If overstocked with internationals then where do they go? Where do the overseas signings go? Sending them up north to a make-believe team and expecting it to work will probably fall flat on its face. Sending them across to an already established team who already have some top flight players might work.

Either way I think a merger is stupid, as is the idea for a north wales region right now, and we'll see our top players go overseas if it goes ahead.

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