Professional Rugby Board (PRB) ? / Project Reset

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Which Region should be merged/disbanded.

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Total Votes : 20

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Post by No9 on Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:59 pm

First topic message reminder :

So is the newly formed Professional Rugby Board (PRB) going to create stability in the Welsh Professional game or just be a stay of execution before the 4 regions get cut to 3 or even 2.

We don't have the funds in Wales to maintain the existing professional sides, but the problem is, cut one and that wont mean the remaining 3 get more revenue, as supporters and fans of a region will not simply support another is theirs are disbanded, as proved when they disbanded the Celtic Warriors.

I hate the fact, but we don't have the funds to keep professional rugby in Wales, and I foresee the demise of it looming.. Sad

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47348518?isBumped=0&postFreq=0&isEmpty=0&isProfane=0&tooLong=0&charCount=0&isAwaitingProcessPreMod=0&isSubmitted=1&filter=none&initial_page_size=10&postId=133850859#comment_133850859

I love the comment "He admitted an Ospreys merger with Cardiff Blues had been among the options explored in high-level Welsh rugby talks"... what Muppet thought that was going to work Erm

Thoughts....

Its all off again... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47461662

Lets hope thats the last we hear of this rubbish until the 6 Nations is over at least...


Last edited by No9 on Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:24 pm

BigGee wrote:

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.


Why's that?

Given the ospreys and scarlets have won 6 league titles between them, and cardiff and dragons have won zero?

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Post by St John The Enforcer on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:33 pm

As an outsider can I say that it's the stupidest thing ever to mix the 2 strongest teams who are also huge rivals.

I could never decide who did more damage to Welsh rugby the WRU or .......

Leaning towards the WRU. Dopes

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:38 pm

If the Scarlets and Ospreys are made to merge, and Dragons are allowed to carry on, then this would be the biggest travesty of justice in Welsh rugby for over a decade.

How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

Ospreys and their academies have been at the heartbeat of the Welsh national side for years.

What a joke of a rugby nation we are. picard

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Post by Brendan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:41 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.


Why's that?

Given the ospreys and scarlets have won 6 league titles between them, and cardiff and dragons have won zero?

I am guessing it is to do with location.  Scarlets Region goes West, Dragons Region goes East and in between you have two Regions.  So if you were cutting a team in the south it would need to be one of the middle Regions.  Then you consider that the Scarlets have a much small population in the town in which they are based compared to the Dragons and Cardiff is bigger than Swansea it makes sense.  If they had done an East Wales Merger the population would have dwarfed all the other Regions.

Ospreys attendances and standards have been dropping over the last few years which implies there are off field issues. Summed up by the Hiring of their current coach

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:45 pm

Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.


Why's that?

Given the ospreys and scarlets have won 6 league titles between them, and cardiff and dragons have won zero?

I am guessing it is to do with location.  Scarlets Region goes West, Dragons Region goes East and in between you have two Regions.  So if you were cutting a team in the south it would need to be one of the middle Regions.  Then you consider that the Scarlets have a much small population in the town in which they are based compared to the Dragons and Cardiff is bigger than Swansea it makes sense.  If they had done an East Wales Merger the population would have dwarfed all the other Regions.

Ospreys attendances and standards have been dropping over the last few years which implies there are off field issues. Summed up by the Hiring of their current coach

Do you know how many people live in Colwyn Bay?

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Post by Brendan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:46 pm

St John The Enforcer wrote:As an outsider can I say that it's the stupidest thing ever to mix  the 2 strongest teams who are also huge rivals.

I could never decide who did more damage to Welsh rugby the WRU or .......

Leaning towards the WRU. Dopes

I think as details emerge we will see why the Ospreys folded.

Also the Welsh want a team to compete in Europe, Blue and Dargons wouldn't have done that.
Early reports were Ospreys and Blues merging so something is up with Ospreys.. As home league games are played in PYS says they had the stronger hand and Euro games in Swansea is just to seem fair.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:48 pm

Brendan wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:As an outsider can I say that it's the stupidest thing ever to mix  the 2 strongest teams who are also huge rivals.

I could never decide who did more damage to Welsh rugby the WRU or .......

Leaning towards the WRU. Dopes

I think as details emerge we will see why the Ospreys folded.

Also the Welsh want a team to compete in Europe, Blue and Dargons wouldn't have done that.
Early reports were Ospreys and Blues merging so something is up with Ospreys..  As home league games are played in PYS says they had the stronger hand and Euro games in Swansea is just to seem fair.

Rangers and Celtic should merge. They're too close together. Merge them. Then play league games at Celtic park and European games at Ibrox. This seems very. An d the most sensible option for Scottish football.

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Post by Eejit on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:50 pm

The Oracle wrote:Just my personal opinion, but merging Scarlets and Ospreys seems on the face of it the stupidest decision I've ever seen in rugby.  

However, I say this without knowing what's going on in the background.  Maybe the O's are being kicked out of the Liberty Stadium?  Maybe the O's backers are deciding to cut and run and they'll go bust?  If so then 1 team based at the PYS makes sense.  But if the above is not the case then I just can't see why you'd merge the two most successful regions and not cut the Dragons.  And that's coming from a Dragons fan.  I get that the WRU own the Dragons but they're not going to lose money if they sold the Dragons tomorrow - in fact they'd make a tidy profit.  Yet to get them up to the level of the Scarlets or Ospreys, plus trying to get a North Wales team up to pro level on and off the pitch, is going to take a hell of a lot of time, money and effort - which makes you wonder why not just keep both the Scarlets and Ospreys and bin the Dragons?  That way they'd just need a bit of work on the Ospreys and focus their resources on N Wales if that's their big 'project'.

Some good points in here.

Surely the whole point is that having four teams leaves Welsh club rugby stretched far too thin and that spreading the resources over three is the best course of action. By that logic you’d keep a team in Cardiff, the West Wales superclub and shift the entity known as the Dragons into north Wales. Surely it’s easy enough for the Blues to play a few games at then Dave if the Dragons were up north.

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Post by Eejit on Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:50 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:As an outsider can I say that it's the stupidest thing ever to mix  the 2 strongest teams who are also huge rivals.

I could never decide who did more damage to Welsh rugby the WRU or .......

Leaning towards the WRU. Dopes

I think as details emerge we will see why the Ospreys folded.

Also the Welsh want a team to compete in Europe, Blue and Dargons wouldn't have done that.
Early reports were Ospreys and Blues merging so something is up with Ospreys..  As home league games are played in PYS says they had the stronger hand and Euro games in Swansea is just to seem fair.

Rangers and Celtic should merge. They're too close together. Merge them. Then play league games at Celtic park and European games at Ibrox. This seems very. An d the most sensible option for Scottish football.

I know you’re using this to make a point, and point well made but as I read this my eye started to twitch.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:03 pm

Eejit wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:As an outsider can I say that it's the stupidest thing ever to mix  the 2 strongest teams who are also huge rivals.

I could never decide who did more damage to Welsh rugby the WRU or .......

Leaning towards the WRU. Dopes

I think as details emerge we will see why the Ospreys folded.

Also the Welsh want a team to compete in Europe, Blue and Dargons wouldn't have done that.
Early reports were Ospreys and Blues merging so something is up with Ospreys..  As home league games are played in PYS says they had the stronger hand and Euro games in Swansea is just to seem fair.

Rangers and Celtic should merge. They're too close together. Merge them. Then play league games at Celtic park and European games at Ibrox. This seems very. An d the most sensible option for Scottish football.

I know you’re using this to make a point, and point well made but as I read this my eye started to twitch.

well if they want to compete in Europe and all that. One team in each city should do it. Glasgow FC, and Edinburgh FC, you could combine Hearts and Hibs.

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Post by Brendan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:06 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.


Why's that?

Given the ospreys and scarlets have won 6 league titles between them, and cardiff and dragons have won zero?

I am guessing it is to do with location.  Scarlets Region goes West, Dragons Region goes East and in between you have two Regions.  So if you were cutting a team in the south it would need to be one of the middle Regions.  Then you consider that the Scarlets have a much small population in the town in which they are based compared to the Dragons and Cardiff is bigger than Swansea it makes sense.  If they had done an East Wales Merger the population would have dwarfed all the other Regions.

Ospreys attendances and standards have been dropping over the last few years which implies there are off field issues. Summed up by the Hiring of their current coach

Do you know how many people live in Colwyn Bay?

Google search isn't hard.  Logic says if they were creating a team in North Wales at the Expense of one of the Southern Regions Ospreys and Scarlets makes more sense than having Scarlet Dragon, Blue Dragons, Blue Scarlets, Osprey Dragons  or Blue Ospreys.

WRU should have put North Wales in the B league for a few years before doing this but as they want to do it makes most sense for building a super team (two best academies it seems) to win Europe and have teams with decent population to grow them.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:08 pm

Is the rivalry between Scarlets and Ospreys such an historically 'violent' one as the Rangers v Celtic one? Hmmm, I hadn't realised it was that bad...
But actually this might be some very smart trickery by Welsh rugby. Nothing like recreating a sense of loyalty and interest in something by threatening to take it away. Perhaps that's the plan - maybe it's the coming of age of true Regional loyalty and support after the years when they've been rubbished by the club traditionalists.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:08 pm

Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.


Why's that?

Given the ospreys and scarlets have won 6 league titles between them, and cardiff and dragons have won zero?

I am guessing it is to do with location.  Scarlets Region goes West, Dragons Region goes East and in between you have two Regions.  So if you were cutting a team in the south it would need to be one of the middle Regions.  Then you consider that the Scarlets have a much small population in the town in which they are based compared to the Dragons and Cardiff is bigger than Swansea it makes sense.  If they had done an East Wales Merger the population would have dwarfed all the other Regions.

Ospreys attendances and standards have been dropping over the last few years which implies there are off field issues. Summed up by the Hiring of their current coach

Do you know how many people live in Colwyn Bay?

Google search isn't hard.  Logic says if they were creating a team in North Wales at the Expense of one of the Southern Regions Ospreys and Scarlets makes more sense than having Scarlet Dragon, Blue Dragons, Blue Scarlets, Osprey Dragons  or Blue Ospreys.

WRU should have put North Wales in the B league for a few years before doing this but as they want to do it makes most sense for building a super team (two best academies it seems) to win Europe and have teams with decent population to grow them.

So say Scarlets have a small population in Llanelli so should merge. Then say having a region in Colwyn bay is a good idea?

Llanelli population - 50,000
Colwyn Bay - 31,000

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Post by Brendan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Eejit wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:As an outsider can I say that it's the stupidest thing ever to mix  the 2 strongest teams who are also huge rivals.

I could never decide who did more damage to Welsh rugby the WRU or .......

Leaning towards the WRU. Dopes

I think as details emerge we will see why the Ospreys folded.

Also the Welsh want a team to compete in Europe, Blue and Dargons wouldn't have done that.
Early reports were Ospreys and Blues merging so something is up with Ospreys..  As home league games are played in PYS says they had the stronger hand and Euro games in Swansea is just to seem fair.

Rangers and Celtic should merge. They're too close together. Merge them. Then play league games at Celtic park and European games at Ibrox. This seems very. An d the most sensible option for Scottish football.

I know you’re using this to make a point, and point well made but as I read this my eye started to twitch.

well if they want to compete in Europe and all that. One team in each city should do it. Glasgow FC, and Edinburgh FC, you could combine Hearts and Hibs.

Ospreys currently are third best and falling fast. They were the main benefit of NDC (again money?). There attendance is falling. We are not talking about combining the two most successful teams in the league. There is a logic for the two Dundee to merge to compete with the two Glasgow teams. Wait till the details come out. I believe Ospreys were on the verge of folding

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:14 pm

Brendan wrote: I believe Ospreys were on the verge of folding

Nobody is denying that.

The decision to pour money into a region that has NEVER even had a 1st class rugby club, instead of a region that has won the league 4 times is what is the bone of contention.

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Post by BigGee on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:15 pm

Ospreys do seem to be in freefall at the moment.

There season and recent results hsve been lamentable given their history. Something is clearly wrong there and was before all this talk of mergers began.

As others have said more will probably come out of this that will make the decision making clearer.

Thinking back, I don't think any of us Scots though that closing down the borders team was s good idea. The part of Scotland that really had the rugby heritage.

Still in hindsight, it was probably the best thing that happened to pro rugby in Scotland. Two pro teams is our natural level and we did much better once we found that.

If those two teams do merge and become successful, which is entirely possible. Don't you think people will then support them?


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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:18 pm

BigGee wrote:

If those two teams do merge and become successful, which is entirely possible. Don't you think people will then support them?


There is a huge chunk that won't, including myself. Unless the name, stadium and kit etc remains the same. Even if they won 3 heineken cups on the bounce.

We fought for years to remain the Scarlets. To play in Llanelli. To wear red. People paid millions of their own money to ensure it happenned. If all that is gone, then so will hundreds of supporters.

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Post by Brendan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:18 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.


Why's that?

Given the ospreys and scarlets have won 6 league titles between them, and cardiff and dragons have won zero?

I am guessing it is to do with location.  Scarlets Region goes West, Dragons Region goes East and in between you have two Regions.  So if you were cutting a team in the south it would need to be one of the middle Regions.  Then you consider that the Scarlets have a much small population in the town in which they are based compared to the Dragons and Cardiff is bigger than Swansea it makes sense.  If they had done an East Wales Merger the population would have dwarfed all the other Regions.

Ospreys attendances and standards have been dropping over the last few years which implies there are off field issues. Summed up by the Hiring of their current coach

Do you know how many people live in Colwyn Bay?

Google search isn't hard.  Logic says if they were creating a team in North Wales at the Expense of one of the Southern Regions Ospreys and Scarlets makes more sense than having Scarlet Dragon, Blue Dragons, Blue Scarlets, Osprey Dragons  or Blue Ospreys.

WRU should have put North Wales in the B league for a few years before doing this but as they want to do it makes most sense for building a super team (two best academies it seems) to win Europe and have teams with decent population to grow them.

So say Scarlets have a small population in Llanelli so should merge. Then say having a region in Colwyn bay is a good idea?

Llanelli population - 50,000
Colwyn Bay - 31,000

Can you please dealt with the point I made. I don't think North Wales is ready (though some who a few days ago complained how they should have one are now upset they do).

So my point is of the 6 possible combination of which would you have done which would have been better
1. Create 3 new Regions
Merge
2. SO
3. SB
3. SD
4. OB
5. OD
6. BD.

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Post by Brendan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:24 pm

With Neath and Ponty in the Prem having finacial problems. Dragons had to be taken over, looks like Ospreys being taken over and Blues having mutterings in the past is there a money problem in wales that will blow up everything.

It is kind of funny the last to standing teams would be the two stand alone teams.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:26 pm

Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
BigGee wrote:

AS an outsider, if you are going to have to merge two teams, that seems to me to be the most sensible option.


Why's that?

Given the ospreys and scarlets have won 6 league titles between them, and cardiff and dragons have won zero?

I am guessing it is to do with location.  Scarlets Region goes West, Dragons Region goes East and in between you have two Regions.  So if you were cutting a team in the south it would need to be one of the middle Regions.  Then you consider that the Scarlets have a much small population in the town in which they are based compared to the Dragons and Cardiff is bigger than Swansea it makes sense.  If they had done an East Wales Merger the population would have dwarfed all the other Regions.

Ospreys attendances and standards have been dropping over the last few years which implies there are off field issues. Summed up by the Hiring of their current coach

Do you know how many people live in Colwyn Bay?

Google search isn't hard.  Logic says if they were creating a team in North Wales at the Expense of one of the Southern Regions Ospreys and Scarlets makes more sense than having Scarlet Dragon, Blue Dragons, Blue Scarlets, Osprey Dragons  or Blue Ospreys.

WRU should have put North Wales in the B league for a few years before doing this but as they want to do it makes most sense for building a super team (two best academies it seems) to win Europe and have teams with decent population to grow them.

So say Scarlets have a small population in Llanelli so should merge. Then say having a region in Colwyn bay is a good idea?

Llanelli population - 50,000
Colwyn Bay - 31,000

Can you please dealt with the point I made.  I don't think North Wales is ready (though some who a few days ago complained how they should have one are now upset they do).

So my point is of the 6 possible combination of which would you have done which would have been better
1. Create 3 new Regions
Merge
2. SO
3. SB
3. SD
4. OB
5. OD
6. BD.

If there is no way that the regions can operate in a new CVC tournament with other CVC owned leagues, then there should have been a 2+2 arrangement with Scarlets and Cardiff being the more heavier funded teams.

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Post by Tramptastic on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Eejit wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Brendan wrote:
St John The Enforcer wrote:As an outsider can I say that it's the stupidest thing ever to mix  the 2 strongest teams who are also huge rivals.

I could never decide who did more damage to Welsh rugby the WRU or .......

Leaning towards the WRU. Dopes

I think as details emerge we will see why the Ospreys folded.

Also the Welsh want a team to compete in Europe, Blue and Dargons wouldn't have done that.
Early reports were Ospreys and Blues merging so something is up with Ospreys..  As home league games are played in PYS says they had the stronger hand and Euro games in Swansea is just to seem fair.

Rangers and Celtic should merge. They're too close together. Merge them. Then play league games at Celtic park and European games at Ibrox. This seems very. An d the most sensible option for Scottish football.

I know you’re using this to make a point, and point well made but as I read this my eye started to twitch.

well if they want to compete in Europe and all that. One team in each city should do it. Glasgow FC, and Edinburgh FC, you could combine Hearts and Hibs.

I don't even like football and that made me fill nauseous

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:28 pm

LordDowlais wrote:How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

If you want to make statements like this, then I will ask you to provide me with a list of who Dragons have produced in comparison to North Wales, because if you're talking like that then I would be keen to know why any pro team should make way for North Wales. Keeping in mind that we currently have six players in the squad now, with players like Tyler Morgan and Ollie Griffiths to make it 8 within our current squad, you're probably not right about your two hands, are you.



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Post by Brendan on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:37 pm

Again Ospreys owner goes to WRU and says no money.
WRU go to Scarlets who say move us to Swansea and we will sue you but we will take them over and use them to grow our brand.
Again Dragon being rubbish still are getting the support if they turn out They win home games they will get more

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:39 pm

The Oracle wrote:Just my personal opinion, but merging Scarlets and Ospreys seems on the face of it the stupidest decision I've ever seen in rugby.  

However, I say this without knowing what's going on in the background.  Maybe the O's are being kicked out of the Liberty Stadium?  Maybe the O's backers are deciding to cut and run and they'll go bust?  If so then 1 team based at the PYS makes sense.  But if the above is not the case then I just can't see why you'd merge the two most successful regions and not cut the Dragons.  And that's coming from a Dragons fan.  I get that the WRU own the Dragons but they're not going to lose money if they sold the Dragons tomorrow - in fact they'd make a tidy profit.  Yet to get them up to the level of the Scarlets or Ospreys, plus trying to get a North Wales team up to pro level on and off the pitch, is going to take a hell of a lot of time, money and effort - which makes you wonder why not just keep both the Scarlets and Ospreys and bin the Dragons?  That way they'd just need a bit of work on the Ospreys and focus their resources on N Wales if that's their big 'project'.

Maybe Buttress' plan of the leisure complex etc has some substance.

It would take a bit of wedge to get North Wales up to even Dragons' level, as things stand.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:58 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

If you want to make statements like this, then I will ask you to provide me with a list of who Dragons have produced in comparison to North Wales, because if you're talking like that then I would be keen to know why any pro team should make way for North Wales. Keeping in mind that we currently have six players in the squad now, with players like Tyler Morgan and Ollie Griffiths to make it 8 within our current squad, you're probably not right about your two hands, are you.



Why are you comparing Dragons with North Wales ? I am comparing them to Ospreys. Rolling Eyes

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:03 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

If you want to make statements like this, then I will ask you to provide me with a list of who Dragons have produced in comparison to North Wales, because if you're talking like that then I would be keen to know why any pro team should make way for North Wales. Keeping in mind that we currently have six players in the squad now, with players like Tyler Morgan and Ollie Griffiths to make it 8 within our current squad, you're probably not right about your two hands, are you.



Why are you comparing Dragons with North Wales ? I am comparing them to Ospreys. Rolling Eyes

Except the issue isn't about success it's about financial viability

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:07 pm

This typical of Welsh rugby, screw over the two most successful sides and let the two sides that do bugger all for Welsh rugby carry on as normal. Rolling Eyes

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:11 pm

marty2086 wrote:Except the issue isn't about success it's about financial viability

Swansea is Wales second city. Why would you disenfranchise Swansea ?

So this will now be the biggest city in West Wales without a pro team, and all the valleys. Just to keep Newport.

Dragons should have gone years ago, they have had their chances, and achieved nothing. Even people from your neck of the woods must be scratching your heads over this ?

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Post by The Oracle on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:22 pm

I just don't think that cuts followed by more cuts is the way to go. There were not enough quality players for 10 teams so we cut the old welsh league to 5 regions, cut one of them when they were struggling financially to 4. We'll cut the 4 to 3 to create another team in the North (probably a development team along whit the Dragons, so that will be a 2 +2 funding model) and then what if that struggles? Cut to 3? And then to 2?

Meanwhile the Irish provinces, who were not all great to start with and who had some relatively small crowds for years, have not cut but have invested heavily and now have 4 much stronger provinces which have all seen a varying level of success and silverware over the years. We've got enough players being produced in Wales - Just looking at the Dragons age grade sides they have under 16s (two separate squads at the Dragons), under 18s, under 23s AND academy - pretty sure it's similar across the 4 regions. Are we saying we can't produce 4 regions of out of that? The U20s seem to do fine against other U20s sides. So for me it is the coaching and structures that are different (compared to Ireland). Invest in that and get a better product on the pitch and the revenues will increase and everything becomes more affordable then so we won't have to have 2 well funded and 2 poorly funded teams that we seem to be going for.
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Post by The Oracle on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:26 pm

The reason the Dragons are being kept, in my opinion, is to make them a development team.  Same for North Wales.  Maybe Ospreys weren't willing to be down graded to a development side, and the WRU only want 2 fully funded pro sides.
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Post by RiscaGame on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

If you want to make statements like this, then I will ask you to provide me with a list of who Dragons have produced in comparison to North Wales, because if you're talking like that then I would be keen to know why any pro team should make way for North Wales. Keeping in mind that we currently have six players in the squad now, with players like Tyler Morgan and Ollie Griffiths to make it 8 within our current squad, you're probably not right about your two hands, are you.



Why are you comparing Dragons with North Wales ? I am comparing them to Ospreys. Rolling Eyes

It's blindingly obvious. You are saying the Dragons should be culled repeatedly. Why should anybody make way for North Wales? What are they offering to the Wales squad?

How are those two hands looking?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:29 pm

The Oracle wrote:I just don't think that cuts followed by more cuts is the way to go.  There were not enough quality players for 10 teams so we cut the old welsh league to 5 regions, cut one of them when they were struggling financially to 4.  We'll cut the 4 to 3 to create another team in the North (probably a development team along whit the Dragons, so that will be a 2 +2 funding model) and then what if that struggles?  Cut to 3?  And then to 2?  

Meanwhile the Irish provinces, who were not all great to start with and who had some relatively small crowds for years, have not cut but have invested heavily and now have 4 much stronger provinces which have all seen a varying level of success and silverware over the years.  We've got enough players being produced in Wales - Just looking at the Dragons age grade sides they have under 16s (two separate squads at the Dragons), under 18s, under 23s AND academy - pretty sure it's similar across the 4 regions.  Are we saying we can't produce 4 regions of out of that?  The U20s seem to do fine against other U20s sides.  So for me it is the coaching and structures that are different (compared to Ireland).  Invest in that and get a better product on the pitch and the revenues will increase and everything becomes more affordable then so we won't have to have 2 well funded and 2 poorly funded teams that we seem to be going for.

It's not as simple as saying: invest in this, or invest in that.

The WRU don't have the money to invest in it. They have far more expenditure commitments than the Irish Union does.

There is no money in Welsh rugby, and now even the Ospreys backers have had enough - so the only way of getting that money is by entering a competition that provides it.

That's what people just don't get. They blame this lack of money on "mis-management" of the regions, whilst not thinking for themselves for 30 seconds - why there is no money. Yes, Andrew Hoare and Steve Tandy were poor appointments, but that doesn't show the true problem that is inherent in welsh domestic rugby. No money.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:34 pm

LordDowlais wrote:This typical of Welsh rugby, screw over the two most successful sides and let the two sides that do bugger all for Welsh rugby carry on as normal. Rolling Eyes

That's what I was scratching my head about. Why not merge the other 2, call them the Cardiff Dragons, swap them between Cardiff Arms and Rodders Parade. Give the Scarlets and Ospreys a chance to get back on form again (in the O's instance getting shot of Clarke would be a good start). The Scarlets aren't far off at the moment, a few decent summer signings for the pack and they'd be raring to go.
The mind boggles!

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Post by RiscaGame on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:40 pm

Because the WRU want two development teams and two fully backed teams, so which one is the natural choice for a development team already? If that is the preferred option, who is to say Ospreys would've been happy with that?

To say Cardiff do nothing for Welsh rugby is ludicrous, when they are the only Welsh team to have won a European trophy and have won it twice.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:42 pm

LordDowlais wrote:If the Scarlets and Ospreys are made to merge, and Dragons are allowed to carry on, then this would be the biggest travesty of justice in Welsh rugby for over a decade.

How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

Ospreys and their academies have been at the heartbeat of the Welsh national side for years.

What a joke of a rugby nation we are. picard


They haven't been 'wound up' because a) in a business sense of the term 'wound up' the Dragons were not bankrupt, and b) from a rugby point of view they were a signatory to the RSA and thus had a binding contract to be one of the regions entered into competitions until the RSA ran out (i.e. this season). You can't just close a make a business wind up and tear up a contract like that. Going forward there's no reason why they can't close the Dragons down though.

I'd love to see you trying to get your hands in your pockets! Dragons Wales internationals (played for Wales while at the Dragons, so 'provided' by the Dragons - your term):
Chris Antony
Rhys Thomas
Steve Jones
Lloyd Burns
Ian Gough
Luke Charteris
Andrew Coombs
Jason Forster
Richard Parks
Jamie Ringer
Gavin Thomas
Dan Lydiate
Michael Owen
Rhys Oakley
Taulupe Faletau
Gareth Cooper
Andy Williams
Ceri Sweeney
Andy Marinos
Gareth Wyatt
Hal Luscombe
Aled Brew
Will Harries
Tom Prydie
Kevin Morgan
Hallam Amos
Tyler Morgan
Cory Hill
Ollie Griffiths
Leon Brown
Elliot Dee
Aaron Wainwright
Ross Moriarty

Capped previously but not while playing for the Dragons:
Tavis Knoyle
Gavin Henson
Adam Warren
Richard Hibbard
Ryan Bevington
Aaron Jarvis
Rhodri Williams
Dafydd Howells

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:48 pm

Just marking these two threads.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:49 pm

Just marking these two threads.

Actually, is it worth merging them?

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Except the issue isn't about success it's about financial viability

Swansea is Wales second city. Why would you disenfranchise Swansea ?

So this will now be the biggest city in West Wales without a pro team, and all the valleys. Just to keep Newport.

Dragons should have gone years ago, they have had their chances, and achieved nothing. Even people from your neck of the woods must be scratching your heads over this ?

Are Ospreys not the ones asking to be merged? So would be a case of save the jobs and identity, which Scarlets have offered to do or they go bust


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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:59 pm

Players not happy

https://www.wrpa.co.uk/blog/welsh-rugby-players-association-expresses-deep-concern-over-player-livelihoods

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:24 pm

So four regions...?

West Wales
South Wales
East Wales
North Wales

No affiliated cities or towns in their names.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:29 pm

maestegmafia wrote:So four regions...?

West Wales
South Wales
East Wales
North Wales

No affiliated cities or towns in their names.

With no supporters

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Post by The Oracle on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:32 pm

maestegmafia wrote:So four regions...?

West Wales
South Wales
East Wales
North Wales

No affiliated cities or towns in their names.


Cardiff Blues won't do it. Can't do it. They'd be homeless!
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Post by marty2086 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:48 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:So four regions...?

West Wales
South Wales
East Wales
North Wales

No affiliated cities or towns in their names.

With no supporters

According to LD theres going to be none soon anyway

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Post by Kingshu on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:49 pm

Feeling that this will only leave more de franchised fans. The valleys never have and will not embrace Cardiff Blues, Ospreys fans will not flock to Scarlets while they are basically Llanelli RFC, and the Ospreys main rivals over the years.
Welsh Rugby is still suffering because two clubs insisted on standing alone, meaning the two could never become encompassing regions.

By my count 6 of the 16 welsh prem teams, will not feel a part of a region, or about 1/3 of Welsh rugby fans maybe more. The regional teams will never be popular when a large portion welsh rugby fans have no connection to a team.

Maybe the WRU should take this opportunity to really go out for project reset.

One of the orginal plans could be implemented, it called for a north wales team (RCG 1404 fulfills this now).
Llanelli, Swansea and Neath to combine.
Cardiff, ponty and bridgend to combine.
Newport,Caerphilly Ebbw vale to combine (which is the dragons).

To do this without leaving fans out, Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff would need disbanded/rebranded along with Ospreys being broken up.

Cardiff and Scarlets fans will not be happy, but they have had a good run.

Making a new regions will set things back years but completely neutral teams not attached to the old clubs have the potentional to attract more fans than the super clubs in the long run. Success will bring the fans back, Ospreys previously mananged this when they had the glalaticos, and the Ospreys shirt was one of the most popular in the UK.
Scarlets fans say they would not support any team not wearing red called Scarlets playing out of parc na scarlets, but a hcup final or two would change this. New strip, new name and a clean sheet, that the prem teams can feed into, former Ospreys fans (exc Bridgend) can feel they are not being forced to watch their old rivals, but a new team that includes them. Scarlets fans will not be any happier than Ospreys fans at first, but hopefully success would bring everyone round.

Cardiff gain Bridgend, and should be made to lose connections to Cardiff RFC, I understand that they have to keep Cardiff in the name, but why not lose the blues tag, and cardiff strip. Play some games in Saris road/Bridgend like Munster do in Cork. Would Cardiff Ravens in a black strip, be neutral enough to bring fans from the three clubs together? If done correctly it has the potential to bring the Valleys fans on board, with the addition of Bridgend to make the team more regional and less Cardiff focused.

Would it work? The safe option is to keep things the way they are going rather than risk losing more fans, but the status quo will never be embraced by all the Welsh public, and it appears more will fell left out of regional rugby. The gamble would be to try and impliment something along these lines, so that in time the entire Welsh public will feel they have a team.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:05 pm

I just think this whole thing where they're trying to manufacture sides and then trying to manufacture a fan base is pointless.  Just let clubs be clubs and let people support who they want.  I support Aston Villa in football - only ever been once and only been to Birmingham to use the airport!  No one is telling me I should support Newport County FC.  No-one tells my Liverpool supporting pals who they should support.  I have a soft spot for Juventus in football - so what!  People will be attracted to support who they like based on a huge number of variables.  Trying to get blanket support from drawing lines on a map is just not a good way to do it.  In my opinion. Therefore trying to set teams up and close teams down because they're either too close to others or they 'represent' a large area currently without a team is just silly.

I've posted this a number of times over the years, but what they should have done was have some sort of pernit or licence system (like rugby league, perhaps?).  WRU allows 4 clubs to represent Wales in the Pro league and Europe.  All clubs get a chance but have to submit a bid/business case and they are assessed on merit.  Let's just say it's a 5 year licence and let's just say in 2003 the best bids were Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli.  The other clubs then make up the semi-pro league.  If at the end of the 5 years they're all doing well then the licence gets renewed.  If a team is struggling (let's just say it is Newport) then the licence is up in the air and another team (e.g. Pontypridd, North Wales) gets to apply and if they make a good case then they get the 5 years licence.  Newport drops down and has to get their sh*t in order in the hope they can get back to the pro league in the future.  That way we get teams with proper support bases and history.  And of course anyone from outside can support them (just like me supporting Aston Villa) - support isn't confined to the town/city.  They'll have a real identify and not a manufactured one.  Plus it will give others the chance to feel they can step up and out of semi-pro and will keep all those with a licence on their toes because of the real threat of 'relegation'.  

Merging Scarlets and Ospreys, or Llanelli and Swansea, will not double the crowds - they are enemies in rugby terms.  Same as Cardiff and Newport.  Just bonkers.
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Post by Kingshu on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:18 pm

That idea is like getting rid of the provinces and letting Lansdowne, cork con, Garyowen, tenure collage in. Who would the Ulster and Connacht fans support. Even if Dungannon or Belfast harliquins got in I wouldnt support them as a Ballymena fan. No club team could get the support, backing, sponsorship that a province can.The clubs belong in the AIB, where we can have rivalries but you need a region the club fans in an area can get behind, like welsh club fans do when supporting Wales. Wales<region<club.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:23 pm

The Oracle wrote:I've posted this a number of times over the years, but what they should have done was have some sort of pernit or licence system (like rugby league, perhaps?).  WRU allows 4 clubs to represent Wales in the Pro league and Europe.  All clubs get a chance but have to submit a bid/business case and they are assessed on merit.  Let's just say it's a 5 year licence and let's just say in 2003 the best bids were Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and Llanelli.  The other clubs then make up the semi-pro league.  If at the end of the 5 years they're all doing well then the licence gets renewed.  If a team is struggling (let's just say it is Newport) then the licence is up in the air and another team (e.g. Pontypridd, North Wales) gets to apply and if they make a good case then they get the 5 years licence.  Newport drops down and has to get their sh*t in order in the hope they can get back to the pro league in the future.  That way we get teams with proper support bases and history.  And of course anyone from outside can support them (just like me supporting Aston Villa) - support isn't confined to the town/city.  They'll have a real identify and not a manufactured one.  Plus it will give others the chance to feel they can step up and out of semi-pro and will keep all those with a licence on their toes because of the real threat of 'relegation'.

The problem with that is that none of the semi-pro clubs would be able to afford the players required to succeed as one of the pro four. What use would it be if the pro players of the worst team of the four just transfer over to the newly-promoted club every time? And the semi-pro players who have earned their club the right to be one of the pro four, are they just left to play semi-pro rugby for the relegated team?


Last edited by Luckless Pedestrian on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:24 pm

That is some fighting talk from Rob Davies. Sounds like he may be threatening legal action.

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Post by LordDowlais on Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:05 pm

The Oracle wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:If the Scarlets and Ospreys are made to merge, and Dragons are allowed to carry on, then this would be the biggest travesty of justice in Welsh rugby for over a decade.

How Dragons have not been wound up by now is anybody's guess. They have done nothing of note since they were formed. I could probably count on my two hands the players they have provided for the national team since they were formed.

Ospreys and their academies have been at the heartbeat of the Welsh national side for years.

What a joke of a rugby nation we are. picard


They haven't been 'wound up'  because a) in a business sense of the term 'wound up' the Dragons were not bankrupt, and b) from a rugby point of view they were a signatory to the RSA and thus had a binding contract to be one of the regions entered into competitions until the RSA ran out (i.e. this season).  You can't just close a make a business wind up and tear up a contract like that.  Going forward there's no reason why they can't close the Dragons down though.  

I'd love to see you trying to get your hands in your pockets!  Dragons Wales internationals (played for Wales while at the Dragons, so 'provided' by the Dragons - your term):
Chris Antony
Rhys Thomas
Steve Jones
Lloyd Burns
Ian Gough
Luke Charteris
Andrew Coombs
Jason Forster
Richard Parks
Jamie Ringer
Gavin Thomas
Dan Lydiate
Michael Owen
Rhys Oakley
Taulupe Faletau
Gareth Cooper
Andy Williams
Ceri Sweeney
Andy Marinos
Gareth Wyatt
Hal Luscombe
Aled Brew
Will Harries
Tom Prydie
Kevin Morgan
Hallam Amos
Tyler Morgan
Cory Hill
Ollie Griffiths
Leon Brown
Elliot Dee
Aaron Wainwright
Ross Moriarty

Capped previously but not while playing for the Dragons:
Tavis Knoyle
Gavin Henson
Adam Warren
Richard Hibbard
Ryan Bevington
Aaron Jarvis
Rhodri Williams
Dafydd Howells



Most of those did not come through the Dragons academies. In fact I would say that 90% of those players did not come through the Dragons academies.

A lot of those players came from the clubs prior, the Warriors and other countries.

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Post by The Oracle on Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:06 pm

Kingshu wrote:That idea is like getting rid of the provinces and letting Lansdowne, cork con, Garyowen, tenure collage in.  Who would the Ulster and Connacht fans support. Even if Dungannon or Belfast harliquins got in I wouldnt support them as a Ballymena fan. No club team could get the support, backing, sponsorship that a province can.The clubs belong in the AIB, where we can have rivalries but you need a region the club fans in an area can get behind, like welsh club fans do when supporting Wales. Wales<region<club.


I'm talking about at the start of this, like in 2003. i.e. in hindsight. There were no regions. That's why it's a mess. Irish provinces exist in government, in society, in history. Welsh rugby regions do not and did not. That's why i'm saying in hindsight they should have just let 4 of the pro teams (at the time) continue as pro super clubs but with a licence so could make changes if need be. By moving to regions we've actually regressed in terms of support, even if the idea of regional rugby was something I could, and did, get behind.
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Professional Rugby Board (PRB) ? / Project Reset - Page 2 Empty Re: Professional Rugby Board (PRB) ? / Project Reset

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