The Future for the PRO14 - Part 9 - who’s next?

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South African media reports emerging around comments made at PRO14 launch by SA Rugby president Mark Alexander that South African players will be better off playing in the northern hemisphere.

Alexander hinted South African rugby could be heading north on a more permanent basis in the near future.

The Cheetahs and Kings joined the Pro14 last year and there is a strong possibility that two more local teams will be included in the competition next season.

‘It’s a long-term investment. We have options now and in future. At some point in time, in future, if we don’t want to stay in the south [in Super Rugby], we can move north,’ said Alexander.

He added that the involvement of local players and coaches in Europe is beneficial for South African rugby.

‘The Pro14 is a good competition for the players and coaches who’re playing against tier-one nations each weekend. When we become a full Pro14 member next season, we’ll be the only nation who plays in the north and the south, and the major benefit of playing in the northern hemisphere is the players are better off.

‘With the structure of the Pro14 competition the way it is, it’s easier for travelling, with distances between places less than in the south, and the time zones are also better. When you consider player welfare and what’s best for them, then the north is better.’

The rumors are that it will be the Griquas and Pumas who will be proposed by SARU next season as their two new teams.  How well that will be received by the other participating unions remains to be seen given the poor quality of the Kings thus far.    SARU plans to cut the number of professional players in their system from approx 900 to 400 odd using a draft system and to spread the talent across the 8 professional teams.

Eejit wrote:The funny thing is that despite only playing last year's player of the year four times Leinster are still 22 points clear at the top of their conference and favourites (or maybe second favourites behind Sarries) to win the Champions Cup. Leinster are a bloody brilliant team and so clearly the Pro14 is doing something right.

And despite all that I expect my team to beat Leinster every day of the week and twice on Sunday because such is the nature of sport and supporting a team. We're very lucky to have such an excellent cross border competition and have the chance to visit some amazing places. Time to be positive lads - its a brilliant competition and its only going to get better so get yourselves a season ticket next year and enjoy yourselves

That's an odd logic leap from "Leinster are really good [because they have a massively expensive squad] so clearly the PrO'14 is doing something right". The second claim doesn't necessarily follow on from the first. All it suggests is that Leinster are very good. It provides no reasoning as to the role the PrO'14 played in making them any good. It offers no analysis at all.

Rugby doesn't provide the opportunity to visit "some amazing places". Airplanes and airports do that. I don't need the PrO'14 in order to go to Galway, for example.

So, in summary, your post was just empty.

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:After all, Jonny Sexton loves the PrO'14 so much that he's played in FOUR of Leinster's 17 games so far.

Four.

Four regular season games.

Yeah imagine players get injured... another thing exclusive to the Pro 14 (or as you so hilariously keep calling it; the PrO'14).

He was injured? Oh, ok.

He played 5 PrO'14 games in 17-18, but 7 European Games. He must have been lucky how those injuries fell.

Just 5 PrO'14 games in 16-17, to be fair he hit the massive 10 in 15-16

Funnily enough he played 21 Top14 games in 13/14 and 11 in 14/15.

I guess he must just get injured in Ireland.

He hasn't been fully fit for about 5 years, I can't remember the last time he didn't receive treatment on the pitch from the medical team.
He played 32 Top 14 games and then couldn't come home quick enough as he knew he would probably be retired by now if he kept that up. His match fitness various week to week and that goes for the Hcup games too. I don't understand how managing a player is a bad thing, clearly the guy is never 100% fit anytime he takes the field.

PhilBB wrote:

Eejit wrote:
Then you can leave the rest of us to look forward to the second half of a great Pro14 season and hopefully next year (or the year after) tuning into Premier Sports to watch Pieter-Steph du Toit and Eben Etzebeth opposite Alun Wyn Jones and Adam Beard in a regular season game.

That'd be good.

But would it make up for Zebre vs Connacht at 19:35 on a Saturday evening during the 6N?

It is true there are 3 weaker teams in the league - one of which is Welsh, but would that be the same Connacht who have a better record than all 4 Welsh teams so far this year ?

Leinster were also beaten by Scarlets earlier this year in what was a sensational game. Great advert for the league.

The Pro14 and Premier Sports truly are a gift that keeps on giving.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
He hasn't been fully fit for about 5 years, I can't remember the last time he didn't receive treatment on the pitch from the medical team.
He played 32 Top 14 games and then couldn't come home quick enough as he knew he would probably be retired by now if he kept that up. His match fitness various week to week and that goes for the Hcup games too. I don't understand how managing a player is a bad thing, clearly the guy is never 100% fit anytime he takes the field.

No player is ever 100% when they take to the field. 5 games a year isn't "managing". It just shows what the league is worth.

geoff999rugby wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Eejit wrote:
Then you can leave the rest of us to look forward to the second half of a great Pro14 season and hopefully next year (or the year after) tuning into Premier Sports to watch Pieter-Steph du Toit and Eben Etzebeth opposite Alun Wyn Jones and Adam Beard in a regular season game.

That'd be good.

But would it make up for Zebre vs Connacht at 19:35 on a Saturday evening during the 6N?

It is true there are 3 weaker teams in the league - one of which is Welsh, but would that be the same Connacht who have a better record than all 4 Welsh teams so far this year ?

I don't understand the question, sorry.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

PhilBB wrote:After all, Jonny Sexton loves the PrO'14 so much that he's played in FOUR of Leinster's 17 games so far.

Four.

Four regular season games.

Yeah imagine players get injured... another thing exclusive to the Pro 14 (or as you so hilariously keep calling it; the PrO'14).

He was injured? Oh, ok.

He played 5 PrO'14 games in 17-18, but 7 European Games. He must have been lucky how those injuries fell.

Just 5 PrO'14 games in 16-17, to be fair he hit the massive 10 in 15-16

Funnily enough he played 21 Top14 games in 13/14 and 11 in 14/15.

I guess he must just get injured in Ireland.

He hasn't been fully fit for about 5 years, I can't remember the last time he didn't receive treatment on the pitch from the medical team.
He played 32 Top 14 games and then couldn't come home quick enough as he knew he would probably be retired by now if he kept that up. His match fitness various week to week and that goes for the Hcup games too. I don't understand how managing a player is a bad thing, clearly the guy is never 100% fit anytime he takes the field.

Leinster really should be flogging Sexton, I mean they're really struggling without him in the league

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Eejit wrote:
Then you can leave the rest of us to look forward to the second half of a great Pro14 season and hopefully next year (or the year after) tuning into Premier Sports to watch Pieter-Steph du Toit and Eben Etzebeth opposite Alun Wyn Jones and Adam Beard in a regular season game.

That'd be good.

But would it make up for Zebre vs Connacht at 19:35 on a Saturday evening during the 6N?

It is true there are 3 weaker teams in the league - one of which is Welsh, but would that be the same Connacht who have a better record than all 4 Welsh teams so far this year ?

I don't understand the question, sorry.

You queried the TV pull of Connacht - one of the better teams in the league.

As I pointed out we do have 3 weaker teams but Connacht playing anyone else would be of interest to many viewers.
There may, or may not, be a viewing issue in wales that is not necessarily shared elsewhere

geoff999rugby wrote:

You queried the TV pull of Connacht - one of the better teams in the league.

As I pointed out we do have 3 weaker teams but Connacht playing anyone else would be of interest to many viewers.
There may, or may not, be a viewing issue in wales that is not necessarily shared elsewhere

I'm still not following your point, sorry. You seem to be saying "this may be or that may be, but that could be or that would be", without actually saying anything.

My point is simple: the PrO'14 does not spark the interest of the general Welsh public DESPITE crowds in Wales being the largest per population in the league. Is that a point that you disagree with?

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

You queried the TV pull of Connacht - one of the better teams in the league.

As I pointed out we do have 3 weaker teams but Connacht playing anyone else would be of interest to many viewers.
There may, or may not, be a viewing issue in wales that is not necessarily shared elsewhere

I'm still not following your point, sorry. You seem to be saying "this may be or that may be, but that could be or that would be", without actually saying anything.

My point is simple: the PrO'14 does not spark the interest of the general Welsh public DESPITE crowds in Wales being the largest per population in the league. Is that a point that you disagree with?

Who gives a sh1t is probably the simplest response. Viewing figures and attendances in Wales are a source of permanent woe for some. That’s life. You think the PRO14 is a sh1t league - a point that you raise incessantly nearly every time you post. I think everyone has got the message by now. Maybe you could put it on Twitter where the real world lives.

PhilBB wrote: [
My point is simple: the PrO'14 does not spark the interest of the general Welsh public DESPITE crowds in Wales being the largest per population in the league. Is that a point that you disagree with?

M<y point is also simple.

If viewing figures are poor in Wales, it does not follow they are elsewhere.
If Welsh rugby at Regional level is a mess it does not follow it is elsewhere.
The point you actually made was an assumption no one would be interested in Connacht playing - that is a guess and for the Irish viewing public false

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

You queried the TV pull of Connacht - one of the better teams in the league.

As I pointed out we do have 3 weaker teams but Connacht playing anyone else would be of interest to many viewers.
There may, or may not, be a viewing issue in wales that is not necessarily shared elsewhere

I'm still not following your point, sorry. You seem to be saying "this may be or that may be, but that could be or that would be", without actually saying anything.

My point is simple: the PrO'14 does not spark the interest of the general Welsh public DESPITE crowds in Wales being the largest per population in the league. Is that a point that you disagree with?

And once again Phil we're back at the circle that Welsh rugby cannot square. I agree that the regional structure is a mess and that the "reset" project farce has been incredibly damaging to Welsh rugby domestically, I also agree that putting the PRO14 on Premier was short termist and not a great move.

However, there isn't enough money to have an internal Welsh league that would have the clout to keep the best players at home, the English don't want the Welsh teams - even if they did it would still be the regions that joined, so Wales is still where it is? Is there anything that can be done - the Welsh game itself is in good shape with some great players going into the RWC and the internationals are selling out, so where does the professional club game go?

Exactly the Pro14 is the only show in town
The English-Welsh league idea sailed years ago

I''ll even speculate a little.
If the Saffers show more interest, which is likely, we could end up with a Southern conference of 8 SA teams
With a Northern conference of 4 Irish, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian
22 games total - fits nicely

Wales needs to get its act together, they are indispensable now but they may not be in the future.

geoff999rugby wrote:

PhilBB wrote:  [
My point is simple: the PrO'14 does not spark the interest of the general Welsh public DESPITE crowds in Wales being the largest per population in the league. Is that a point that you disagree with?

M<y point is also simple.

If viewing figures are poor in Wales, it does not follow they are elsewhere.
If Welsh rugby at Regional level is a mess it does not follow it is elsewhere.
The point you actually made was an assumption no one would be interested in Connacht playing - that is a guess and for the Irish viewing public false

You've misunderstood, I think. My point was that few in Wales are interested in Connacht.

Irish Londoner wrote:

However, there isn't enough money to have an internal Welsh league that would have the clout to keep the best players at home, the English don't want the Welsh teams - even if they did it would still be the regions that joined, so Wales is still where it is? Is there anything that can be done - the Welsh game itself is in good shape with some great players going into the RWC  and the internationals are selling out, so where does the professional club game go?

The professional club game has one hope: it now controls all of the income into the professional game after it has paid the community game £11m a year. That's its hope. If CVC or whoever deliver the income through the international game, the domestic game will survive. It probably won't flourish, but it will survive. It's hoped that the income into the game will then be enough to match the spends of the other Unions - IRFU, SRU and RFU.

geoff999rugby wrote:Exactly the Pro14 is the only show in town
The English-Welsh league idea sailed years ago

I''ll even speculate a little.
If the Saffers show more interest, which is likely, we could end up with a Southern conference of 8 SA teams
With a Northern conference of 4 Irish, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian
22 games total - fits nicely

Wales needs to get its act together, they are indispensable now but they may not be in the future.

SARU has just signed up its four best teams into Super Rugby.

I like that final sentence. I'd be interested in learning how a major shareholder in the competition could be excluded from it, mind you.

Welsh fans don't watch teams from outside Wales then. Fair enough. I'm a Middlesbrough fan and I'll only bother watching 2 or 3 teams outside of them. Not sure that means there's something wrong with English football league's though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Welsh fans don't watch teams from outside Wales then. Fair enough. I'm a Middlesbrough fan and I'll only bother watching 2 or 3 teams outside of them. Not sure that means there's something wrong with English football league's though.

Nicely taken out of context, there. Well done.

Why?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why?

Because, bar Cardiff and Swansea, the English Football League serves only country, so only one football association. The PrO'14 serves 5 rugby associations, so it's perfectly possible that the league is really beneficial for one of them but not another. The fact that it may not benefit one of its members doesn't negate the possibility (in fact it probably increases it) of it working really well for its others.

This is something really quite basic when considering multi-national leagues. Really basic.

But that wasn't the point I was touching upon. You were simply talking about a set of fans who don't want to watch teams outside of x y and z. That happens everywhere.
On the wider point of league seemingly benefiting certain teams yes that happens as well. The premier league have tries to make it a closed shop as much as possible at the top of the tree.

geoff999rugby wrote:Exactly the Pro14 is the only show in town
The English-Welsh league idea sailed years ago

I''ll even speculate a little.
If the Saffers show more interest, which is likely, we could end up with a Southern conference of 8 SA teams
With a Northern conference of 4 Irish, 2 Scottish and 2 Italian
22 games total - fits nicely

Wales needs to get its act together, they are indispensable now but they may not be in the future.

With the changes to Super Rugby just announced, have the SARU committed to which teams will be in the competition in 2021? All I could see was that they will have 4 teams

What is the timeline for the new SR agreement?

No 7&1/2 wrote:But that wasn't the point I was touching upon. You were simply talking about a set of fans who don't want to watch teams outside of x y and z. That happens everywhere.
On the wider point of league seemingly benefiting certain teams yes that happens as well. The premier league have tries to make it a closed shop as much as possible at the top of the tree.

You clearly did touch upon it when you wrote "Not sure that means there's something wrong with English football league's though.".

Well you've managed to side step the point anyway.

Two baldy men fighting over a comb.

In relation to what LD?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well you've managed to side step the point anyway.

You made a point? What was it?

That some fans will only watch select teams no matter what the league sport etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That some fans will only watch select teams no matter what the league sport etc.

Yep, crowds always go up when the big boys are in town.

So to come full circle it's not the league which influences Welsh not watching it's just the Welsh fans are (apparently according to yourslef) not bothered. Happens everywhere. Have I read you wrong all this time? Have you just been saying the Welsh will never be happy no matter what?

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

PhilBB wrote:  [
My point is simple: the PrO'14 does not spark the interest of the general Welsh public DESPITE crowds in Wales being the largest per population in the league. Is that a point that you disagree with?

M<y point is also simple.

If viewing figures are poor in Wales, it does not follow they are elsewhere.
If Welsh rugby at Regional level is a mess it does not follow it is elsewhere.
The point you actually made was an assumption no one would be interested in Connacht playing - that is a guess and for the Irish viewing public false

You've misunderstood, I think. My point was that few in Wales are interested in Connacht.

Probably a fair point, but equally most people in Ireland aren't that interested when Dragons are on TV - apart from people like me who'll happily watch PRO14, Aviva, TOP14 and will even have a dabble into Welsh club rugby on S4C if there's nothing else on. I like rugby.

Irish Londoner wrote:
And once again Phil we're back at the circle that Welsh rugby cannot square. I agree that the regional structure is a mess and that the "reset" project farce has been incredibly damaging to Welsh rugby domestically, I also agree that putting the PRO14 on Premier was short termist and not a great move.

Interested to know why you think that the Premier move is short termist and not a great move?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So to come full circle it's not the league which influences Welsh not watching it's just the Welsh fans are (apparently according to yourslef) not bothered. Happens everywhere. Have I read you wrong all this time? Have you just been saying the Welsh will never be happy no matter what?

My favourite quote about Wales is from Torchwood:
Gwen: But hold on, if no one can see it when the lift's coming up, there's a great big bloody hole in the floor. Don't people fall in?
Jack: That is so Welsh.
Gwen: What is?
Jack: I show you something fantastic; you find fault.

marty2086 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
And once again Phil we're back at the circle that Welsh rugby cannot square. I agree that the regional structure is a mess and that the "reset" project farce has been incredibly damaging to Welsh rugby domestically, I also agree that putting the PRO14 on Premier was short termist and not a great move.

Interested to know why you think that the Premier move is short termist and not a great move?

Because it's a minor platform in the scheme of things, I'd rather that it was on Sky, BT Sport or sold as a terrestrial package to regional broadcasters. The game can always reach the converted, same as cricket fans will pay for Sky to watch tests matches when the ordinary punter won't.

That's why I'm worried about the Rugby World International League or whatever they are going to call it being hidden behind a paywall - if we lose the 6Ns from FTA we lose generations of potential players and fans.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So to come full circle it's not the league which influences Welsh not watching it's just the Welsh fans are (apparently according to yourslef) not bothered. Happens everywhere. Have I read you wrong all this time? Have you just been saying the Welsh will never be happy no matter what?

If that's your genuine interpretation of my point then there's zero need to continue.

Irish Londoner wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:
And once again Phil we're back at the circle that Welsh rugby cannot square. I agree that the regional structure is a mess and that the "reset" project farce has been incredibly damaging to Welsh rugby domestically, I also agree that putting the PRO14 on Premier was short termist and not a great move.

Interested to know why you think that the Premier move is short termist and not a great move?

Because it's a minor platform in the scheme of things, I'd rather that it was on Sky, BT Sport or sold as a terrestrial package to regional broadcasters. The game can always reach the converted, same as cricket fans will pay for Sky to watch tests matches when the ordinary punter won't.

That's why I'm worried about the Rugby World International League or whatever they are going to call it being hidden behind a paywall - if we lose the 6Ns from FTA we lose generations of potential players and fans.

How much did the league grow on Sky or FTA though?

What value has FTA to the league if fans aren't getting off their backsides and engaging with the league other than zoning out over the weekend? The league now has hard data on how many hardcore fans it has, that is something they can go to marketing firms and sponsors with and say here are how many fans are willing to spend money on us and the products that are associated with us, that is valuable and can generate more income than free to air because 1 such fan is worth more than 2 or 3 sitting watching on FTA

marty2086 wrote:

What value has FTA to the league if fans aren't getting off their backsides and engaging with the league other than zoning out over the weekend? The league now has hard data on how many hardcore fans it has, that is something they can go to marketing firms and sponsors with and say here are how many fans are willing to spend money on us and the products that are associated with us, that is valuable and can generate more income than free to air because 1 such fan is worth more than 2 or 3 sitting watching on FTA

Conversely, sponsors will no know their brand reaches only 300,000 (for example) people on Premier Sports rather than 3m on FTA.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that one out, does it?

It's hard to tell if your response means that was your point or if it wasn't Phil. For someone with so much to say you really don't like giving detail or help further understanding.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's hard to tell if your response means that was your point or if it wasn't Phil. For someone with so much to say you really don't like giving detail or help further understanding.

What I've written is perfectly clear. I can't help you any further if you cannot understand it.

To me it reads like you wilfully misrepresent it, so there's no point continuing either way.

You said that the Welsh aren't bothered about watching teams outside of the Welsh. Seemingly as a dig at the league but you've stayed it's not to do with the league? So I assumed you just meant the Welsh will always act this way no matter what? If that's not what you meant it's a forum you're allowed to clarify.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You said that the Welsh aren't bothered about watching teams outside of the Welsh. Seemingly as a dig at the league but you've stayed it's not to do with the league? So I assumed you just meant the Welsh will always act this way no matter what? If that's not what you meant it's a forum you're allowed to clarify.

What I've written is perfectly clear. I can't help you any further if you cannot understand it.

You could clarify as clearly it isn't.

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

You queried the TV pull of Connacht - one of the better teams in the league.

As I pointed out we do have 3 weaker teams but Connacht playing anyone else would be of interest to many viewers.
There may, or may not, be a viewing issue in wales that is not necessarily shared elsewhere

I'm still not following your point, sorry. You seem to be saying "this may be or that may be, but that could be or that would be", without actually saying anything.

Your repeated responses on here suggest you are looking in the mirror when posting

Irish Londoner wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So to come full circle it's not the league which influences Welsh not watching it's just the Welsh fans are (apparently according to yourslef) not bothered. Happens everywhere. Have I read you wrong all this time? Have you just been saying the Welsh will never be happy no matter what?

My favourite quote about Wales is from Torchwood:
Gwen: But hold on, if no one can see it when the lift's coming up, there's a great big bloody hole in the floor. Don't people fall in?
Jack: That is so Welsh.
Gwen: What is?
Jack: I show you something fantastic; you find fault.

That rings so true, at least when it comes to Rugby fans

geoff999rugby wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

You queried the TV pull of Connacht - one of the better teams in the league.

As I pointed out we do have 3 weaker teams but Connacht playing anyone else would be of interest to many viewers.
There may, or may not, be a viewing issue in wales that is not necessarily shared elsewhere

I'm still not following your point, sorry. You seem to be saying "this may be or that may be, but that could be or that would be", without actually saying anything.

Your repeated responses on here suggest you are looking in the mirror when posting

Lovely. So what point are you making?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You could clarify as clearly it isn't.

I can't help you any further if you cannot understand it

Perhaps it’s nostalgia. I’m not anti-Pro14 but even I can see that the Pro14 is not as good/enjoyable/exciting from a fan perspective as the old welsh league. Maybe for the Irish the current situation is better than what you had before (before you joined the Celtic Legaue). So maybe these are the good times for you, so nothing to dislike, and no nostalgia for the good times because you’re in the good times currently.

I’m still fully behind the Pro14 as it’s all we’ve got. I’d much prefer to watch that than nothing. But I don’t enjoy it as much as I enjoyed the pre-regional stuff. Sorry.

You could literally answer the questions and it would clarify. Seems weird you would want to make vague statements then act surprised when questioned.

The Oracle wrote:Perhaps it’s nostalgia. I’m not anti-Pro14 but even I can see that the Pro14 is not as good/enjoyable/exciting from a fan perspective as the old welsh league. Maybe for the Irish the current situation is better than what you had before (before you joined the Celtic Legaue). So maybe these are the good times for you, so nothing to dislike, and no nostalgia for the good times because you’re in the good times currently.

I’m still fully behind the Pro14 as it’s all we’ve got. I’d much prefer to watch that than nothing. But I don’t enjoy it as much as I enjoyed the pre-regional stuff. Sorry.

The problem in Ireland few people followed Rugby outside the National team.

The thing with Nostalgia is we only remember the good times. The old times are nearly always better because we forgot all the mundane things and all the dross. Remembering the best game each season is different to having to go back and actually watch the whole season.

There isn't a massive rivalry in the league but I am sure each team's fans have teams they dislike. That is the thing that drives the fans to see their team batter a rival or stick it to that team. For Munster it was the fight with the English. For Leinster it was sticking it to Munster.

After a weekend you want to come in a laud it over your co-workers but in the league we all support the same team as them

I’m just providing a perspective. You see, these posts are a snapshot in time. Currently, some but not all Welsh rugby fans pine for the inter-welsh club games of old. So what?! But they do, so let’s just let them. Who knows, in the future the Pro14 might break up and a new league might form that the Irish fans do not enjoy so much and those fans might end up pining for the good auld days of the Pro14 where everything was rosey. And who would anyone be to tell them they were wrong to look back and pine for the old times?! They’d be told to get behind the new inter-Scandinavian league and they might not get as excited about it as they did for the games v Glasgow and Scarlets!