Wage cap - Updated with news on Saracens Punishment

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:30 am

First topic message reminder :

Saracens have made the following statement.
"
Club Statement - Co-investment partnerships between the Saracens owner and players.

Following a newspaper article, the Club would like to make the following statement: 

“Firstly, we would like to reiterate that the Club readily complies with Premiership Rugby salary regulations and information relating to remuneration is declared to the salary cap manager. Although co-investment partnerships between owners and players are not a prerequisite of the salary regulations, we disclose these transactions to Premiership Rugby and will continue to do so. 

“Currently, 57% of the men’s squad is comprised of home grown talent - the highest in the Premiership. These players not only produce results on the pitch, they help entitle the Club to £1.2m in credits above the baseline salary cap from the RFU and Premiership Rugby. This is a direct result of our significant investment in the Saracens Academy which nurtures and develops Saracens and England players of the future. 

“A professional playing career in rugby can be short. We have a responsibility to help our players fulfil their potential, not just on the pitch but off it too.  It is why our Academy incorporates an education programme that actively prepares players for life beyond the sport. We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring business opportunities away from rugby.”

To me it just seems to be we're doing good work for the England team so don't pry!


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by BamBam on Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:11 pm

tigertattie wrote:
BamBam wrote:Sounds about right. Hugely disappointing as a fan, but speaking with my finance professional hat on, I have to say that the creativity of accountants never fails to amaze

For avoidance of dount, I'm not saying that the accountants at Sarries are being creative, but my god I've seen some absolute belters in my time.

"Lets just slide this £5m over into this spreadsheet marked as 'pending' and we'll count it as profit when working out the company's performance related bonus payments, but then when we're working out the revenue to pay corporate income tax, we'll slide the £5m back out so it no longer exists again" Hug

Takes notes for future reference angel

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Post by king_carlos on Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:15 pm

Reading further into the rules I see that players who are injured for a for an entire season are exempt from the cap. I am uncertain as to when they become exempt however.

Trying to read the regulations gives me a severe headache.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:43 am

Clubs voted against a Saracens proposal to all extra salary cap credits for players at RWC later in the year. Sarries not happy and even some suggestion they may fail to put out a team.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:30 am

king_carlos wrote:Reading further into the rules I see that players who are injured for a for an entire season are exempt from the cap. I am uncertain as to when they become exempt however.

Trying to read the regulations gives me a severe headache.

Presumably if there is an injury before the season starts you can nominate the player for long term injury and exempt them from the cap. The player must then be unavailable all season?

Like injury dispensation where the player has to be out for at least 3 months, so even if they back before then they have to be unavailable until that period has passed otherwise the dispensation comes under the cap. Think it's been the case before where the injured player has been fit but held back so as to avoid cap issues.

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:14 am

If you think of the Saracens culture and how we look after our people as a jigsaw puzzle then co-investments with players and staff are just one piece of the puzzle. The Saracens journey has taught me far more about what really caring for people means and how powerful that can be.

There was much talk last week about Saracens and in particular my co-investment partnerships with players past and present. First and foremost, I am an advocate of entrepreneurialism and independent spirit. Small businesses and young entrepreneurs are the lifeblood of the UK economy and it is why I have personally invested in hundreds of these opportunities over 40 years.

As a Club, we want and actively encourage all of our players to consider their futures beyond playing the sport we all love. A professional rugby career can be short-lived and we have a responsibility to educate, prepare and support all of our players in carving alternative career pathways for their lives after rugby. We are a Club that cares.

Our culture has evolved and will continue to do so but being a family matters to us. How do you look out for your family?

Players are supported in many ways. From arranging business secondments for work experience through to a creche facility at the training ground for their kids. Twelve players have been on work placements with our Club sponsors, Allianz and CME. Former player, Nils Mordt joined CME full time after finishing his rugby career as a direct result of a work placement during his time playing at Saracens. Hayden Smith is enjoying a very successful career at Enstar, where Saracens board director Dominic Silvester is CEO. Peter Harvey, former Corporate & Commercial Banking CEO at Barclays and a huge Saracens supporter, has worked for over 10 years with Saracens players as part of our Player Development Programme. Sadly, Joel Conlon had to retire through injury earlier this season and Peter has been helping Joel with his post rugby career choices by introducing him to board directors and exploring opportunities. We supported and nurtured Alex Sanderson, Kevin Sorrell, Paul Gustard and Andy Farrell as coaches when their playing careers came to an end and look where they are now…

Education is a crucial part of our culture. Those of you who know about the Saracens High School which opened last September will know that. We have had 17+ players who have gone on to further education including, to name but a few, George Kruis who got a first-class degree in Business Management, Jackson Wray who has a BA Hons psychology degree, Ben Earl who is studying Comparative Literature and Rotimi Segun who is studying Chemistry. Mark and the coaching team have always been fully supportive of this. Our strength and conditioning and medical staff will often rearrange sessions or come in on weekends to allow young players to go to university. It’s a Club wide ethos. Approximately, 75 per cent of the squad are involved in either university education, an industry qualification, meaningful work experience or an entrepreneurial venture.

We invest in developing our coaches from the Academy up. For example, Kelly Brown, a former player, who is now an Academy Coach and spent some time with Scotland Rugby to learn. Adam Powell, another former player, is now an Academy Coach and has a hugely bright future. Our staff are just as important to us as our players and we are currently running an internal training and development programme modelled around ‘The Saracens Way’ – an executive and management coaching programme run by Will Fraser, a former player who embodies the culture and ethos of Saracens.

We can’t list all these examples without recognising the incredible work that David Jones, our Personal Development Manager, does. David works tirelessly to develop tailored development programmes for each and every one of our players and is always there to listen. He is dedicated in this role.

It goes without saying that not everyone can be entrepreneurial and obviously investment comes in many forms. The more commercial investments often require significant capital and hence are largely co-investments with our senior squad. We actively support independent business. For example, when our captain Brad Barritt founded Tiki Tonga Coffee, we created an opportunity for them to sell their products at Allianz Park (for which they pay a commercial rights fee to Saracens). Tiki Tonga is 100 per cent funded by Brad and his business partner Justin and has recently opened their first coffee shop in South Africa. When Chris Wyles and Al Hargreaves started Wolfpack Lager, we were happy to help them on their way and I was delighted to have the opportunity to invest. Former player Jim Hamilton has also invested and I have recently increased my investment as the value of Wolfpack Lager grows. Ben Spencer and Henry Taylor have their table business 99 which has supplied various coffee shops. Henry also did work experience in Geneva three weeks ago organised by us, with Louis Dreyfus a commodities company. At Allianz Park we also have Fines Master Gin on site, a business launched by Michael Rhodes, Raw Spirit which is the brain child of Mike Ellery & Tim Streather, and Sanderson’s Puddings run by Alex Sanderson’s mum.

If any of our players have a sound commercial idea, I am interested and I may invest. The least I will do is offer advice. I recognise that in some quarters, these co-investments are perceived as part of the Premiership salary regulations. They are not. Investment is not salary. Investments go up and down. It’s an opportunity and a risk. It might be immodest to say this but between the Board and some hugely generous supporters our players have access to some of the best investment advice available anywhere in the country and we are all happy to share this for everyone’s benefit.

The Club is open and transparent with the salary cap manager and we proactively disclose co-investments when they occur, even though we are under no obligation to do so. We respect the rules and the salary regulations that are in place.

Our success is built on the strength of our Academy and the incredible efforts of the Academy staff are often overlooked. Of our current squad, 57 per cent is home-grown talent, the highest in the league, contributing towards the £1.2 million in credits we receive from PRL which, incidentally, makes our salary cap higher than most.Through significant investment in our academy system we have developed 58 players for the Saracens senior team, 11 internationals and four British & Irish Lions since 2008.

But there is, as always, so much more to do. With that connection, I am pleased to say we have now received full permission for the new West Stand, fully financed and with a strong partnership with Middlesex University. Work begins in the off season.

All the best,

Nigel

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 10:20 am

I recognise that in some quarters, these co-investments are perceived as part of the Premiership salary regulations. They are not. Investment is not salary.

HMRC may disagree

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Post by carpet baboon on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:23 am

Do I get the feeling he's trying to head off any full scale independent investigation?

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:40 am

Comes across as pure PR, it's great that Saracens try to set players up for post playing careers but he completely avoids addressing the investments mentioned in the Fail article and how they operate which is the issue not the culture of helping guys out

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:20 pm

Why don't some geezer make a movie about Nigel? Seems a ripe character for a modern day Dickensian morality tale.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:21 pm

Phil Green could make a cameo appearance

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:14 pm

Same old then. We're doing great things for England the players and the community etc. He s one step away from a reason I read in here 4 years ago ie it wouldn't be fair in the Saracens fans now to dig this up.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon Mar 11, 2019 5:32 pm

From what I understand whether it will fall foul of the cap or not will depend on whether the players are being paid dividends from shares. If no dividends have been paid out then it seems that Sarries are abusing the cap in a legal manner, hence service as normal.

The most common viewpoint coming out of this is that, either the regulations need to be made more black and white or they need doing away with. There's a growing view that if clubs are picking and choosing how the regulations work then there isn't much point of them. Sarries are likely the worst culprits but they are by no means the only ones.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:27 am

From the stories leaked today it would seem that Sarries have not been as open and honest as they claimed. Indeed it seems they did not inform the Salary Cap Manager of these arrangements until after the Mail ran it's story.

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:48 am

Dock them 40 points.
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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:51 am

TightHEAD wrote:Dock them 40 points.

They would sue the league. And win.

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:52 am

LondonTiger wrote:From the stories leaked today it would seem that Sarries have not been as open and honest as they claimed. Indeed it seems they did not inform the Salary Cap Manager of these arrangements until after the Mail ran it's story.

I'm shocked. I can't believe they would do that. Astounded I am

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Post by BamBam on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:58 am

carpet baboon wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:From the stories leaked today it would seem that Sarries have not been as open and honest as they claimed. Indeed it seems they did not inform the Salary Cap Manager of these arrangements until after the Mail ran it's story.

I'm shocked. I can't believe they would do that. Astounded I am

Likewise, I am utterly gobsmacked. Saracens?! Cheating?!!!

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Post by TightHEAD on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:59 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Dock them 40 points.

They would sue the league. And win.

Ban them from the league, bottom team stays up.
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Post by marty2086 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:59 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Dock them 40 points.

They would sue the league. And win.

And on what legal basis would they win?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:02 am

TightHEAD wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Dock them 40 points.

They would sue the league. And win.

Ban them from the league, bottom team stays up.

They would sue the league. And win.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:03 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Dock them 40 points.

They would sue the league. And win.

Ban them from the league, bottom team stays up.

They would sue the league. And win.

I notice you can't explain why, strange that

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:02 pm

Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:25 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

Pretty much. And the fact that a salary cap wouldn't stand up in court - in terms of being used to restrict private businesses grow their productivity.

This is what happenned last time - when Saracens threatened to sue. As anyone with a brain cell knows.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:29 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

Pretty much. And the fact that a salary cap wouldn't stand up in court - in terms of being used to restrict private businesses grow their productivity.

This is what happenned last time - when Saracens threatened to sue. As anyone with a brain cell knows.

I'm not sure that they would win, if they agreed to the salary cap as part of their terms for being members of the league what case would they have - "We signed up to these rules but have decided we're going to break them anyway as we don't like them?". Nothing is stopping Saracens from breaking the salary cap, it's just that they can't do it and stay in the league without sanction at the same time.

(Fails to resist the temptation to compare it to the UK government position on Brexit - "we want the benefits of your league we just don't want the restrictions as well")

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Post by marty2086 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:31 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

Pretty much. And the fact that a salary cap wouldn't stand up in court - in terms of being used to restrict private businesses grow their productivity.

This is what happenned last time - when Saracens threatened to sue. As anyone with a brain cell knows.

Or maybe those with brain cells know how the Lisbon Treaty and that the EU have stated that such rules are legal Rolling Eyes

Or the fact that Saracens have signed contract agreeing to the rules

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:40 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

Pretty much. And the fact that a salary cap wouldn't stand up in court - in terms of being used to restrict private businesses grow their productivity.

This is what happenned last time - when Saracens threatened to sue. As anyone with a brain cell knows.

Last time Sarries went to great length to show that other clubs had not been perfect. The injury dispensation fine print in particular was used to show that clubs had not signed like for like replacements and were therefore over the cap etc. It was eventually (after much negotiation) decided to have a clean slate. That's the stories I heard. Slaps on the wrists and threats over repeats.

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:55 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

Pretty much. And the fact that a salary cap wouldn't stand up in court - in terms of being used to restrict private businesses grow their productivity.

This is what happenned last time - when Saracens threatened to sue. As anyone with a brain cell knows.

Last time Sarries went to great length to show that other clubs had not been perfect. The injury dispensation fine print in particular was used to show that clubs had not signed like for like replacements and were therefore over the cap etc. It was eventually (after much negotiation) decided to have a clean slate. That's the stories I heard. Slaps on the wrists and threats over repeats.

Also they said they would delay in signing the participation agreement with the RFU, thus delaying payments to all the club's, which as we know a lot need the extra from the RFU to survive.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:56 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

Pretty much. And the fact that a salary cap wouldn't stand up in court - in terms of being used to restrict private businesses grow their productivity.

This is what happenned last time - when Saracens threatened to sue. As anyone with a brain cell knows.

I'm not sure that they would win, if they agreed to the salary cap as part of their terms for being members of the league what case would they have - "We signed up to these rules but have decided we're going to break them anyway as we don't like them?". Nothing is stopping Saracens from breaking the salary cap, it's just that they can't do it and stay in the league without sanction at the same time.

(Fails to resist the temptation to compare it to the UK government position on Brexit - "we want the benefits of your league we just don't want the restrictions as well")

All you have to do is look at the last time it happenned, and ask yourself why Bath and Saracens weren't relegated.

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:02 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:Nothing will be done, a few harsh words behind closed doors at most, no fines no points deductions, no sanctions and we can all go back to kidding ourselves that rugby is morally superior to soccer because we don't stoop to their levels.

Pretty much. And the fact that a salary cap wouldn't stand up in court - in terms of being used to restrict private businesses grow their productivity.

This is what happenned last time - when Saracens threatened to sue. As anyone with a brain cell knows.

I'm not sure that they would win, if they agreed to the salary cap as part of their terms for being members of the league what case would they have - "We signed up to these rules but have decided we're going to break them anyway as we don't like them?". Nothing is stopping Saracens from breaking the salary cap, it's just that they can't do it and stay in the league without sanction at the same time.

(Fails to resist the temptation to compare it to the UK government position on Brexit - "we want the benefits of your league we just don't want the restrictions as well")

All you have to do is look at the last time it happenned, and ask yourself why Bath and Saracens weren't relegated.

There were several reasons, but you claimed they could win a court case, and as a few have pointed out, if it is a clear breech of the agreement they signed up to to be allowed to participate, then the PRL could legally sanction them as stated in the rules of the league. And sarries could do nothing about it

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:08 pm

carpet baboon wrote:

There were several reasons, but you claimed they could win a court case, and as a few have pointed out, if it is a clear breech of the agreement they signed up to to be allowed to participate, then the PRL could legally sanction them as stated in the rules of the league. And sarries could do nothing about it

Saracens were prepared to take PRL to court because a salary cap isn't legally binding. The PRL backed down knowing Saracens would likely win. Therefore they "punished" them behind closed doors.They would hire very expensive lawyers to prove that a non legally binding way of prohibiting increased expenditure and therefore stopping productivity is in effect restraint of trade.

You can say its a breach of agreement all you like. But in the eyes of the law, that agreement has no firm footing when it comes to the legalities of trade regarding a UK limited company.

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Post by marty2086 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:40 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

There were several reasons, but you claimed they could win a court case, and as a few have pointed out, if it is a clear breech of the agreement they signed up to to be allowed to participate, then the PRL could legally sanction them as stated in the rules of the league. And sarries could do nothing about it

Saracens were prepared to take PRL to court because a salary cap isn't legally binding. The PRL backed down knowing Saracens would likely win. Therefore they "punished" them behind closed doors.They would hire very expensive lawyers to prove that a non legally binding way of prohibiting increased expenditure and therefore stopping productivity is in effect restraint of trade.

You can say its a breach of agreement all you like. But in the eyes of the law, that agreement has no firm footing when it comes to the legalities of trade regarding a UK limited company.

That's a lie

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:10 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

There were several reasons, but you claimed they could win a court case, and as a few have pointed out, if it is a clear breech of the agreement they signed up to to be allowed to participate, then the PRL could legally sanction them as stated in the rules of the league. And sarries could do nothing about it

Saracens were prepared to take PRL to court because a salary cap isn't legally binding. The PRL backed down knowing Saracens would likely win. Therefore they "punished" them behind closed doors.They would hire very expensive lawyers to prove that a non legally binding way of prohibiting increased expenditure and therefore stopping productivity is in effect restraint of trade.

You can say its a breach of agreement all you like. But in the eyes of the law, that agreement has no firm footing when it comes to the legalities of trade regarding a UK limited company.

If that's the case what is the salary cap for, if it's not a legally binding agreement then why aren't Saracens and Bath in a spending arms race and disregarding it completely. If they were able to to this without sanction why are they trying to hide it in the books, instead of saying, "yes we pay Itoje £1 milion a year, live with it!".

Have you seen "counsels opinion" on this ?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:12 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:

If that's the case what is the salary cap for, if it's not a legally binding agreement then why aren't Saracens and Bath in a spending arms race and disregarding it completely. If they were able to to this without sanction why are they trying to hide it in the books, instead of saying, "yes we pay Itoje £1 milion a year, live with it!".

Well exactly. Saracens and Bath would agree entirely. Newcastle not so much.

Have you seen "counsels opinion" on this ?

No

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Post by marty2086 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:18 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:

There were several reasons, but you claimed they could win a court case, and as a few have pointed out, if it is a clear breech of the agreement they signed up to to be allowed to participate, then the PRL could legally sanction them as stated in the rules of the league. And sarries could do nothing about it

Saracens were prepared to take PRL to court because a salary cap isn't legally binding. The PRL backed down knowing Saracens would likely win. Therefore they "punished" them behind closed doors.They would hire very expensive lawyers to prove that a non legally binding way of prohibiting increased expenditure and therefore stopping productivity is in effect restraint of trade.

You can say its a breach of agreement all you like. But in the eyes of the law, that agreement has no firm footing when it comes to the legalities of trade regarding a UK limited company.

If that's the case what is the salary cap for, if it's not a legally binding agreement then why aren't Saracens and Bath in a spending arms race and disregarding it completely. If they were able to to this without sanction why are they trying to hide it in the books, instead of saying, "yes we pay Itoje £1 milion a year, live with it!".

Have you seen "counsels opinion" on this ?

He hasn't and has made it all up as per usual

When UEFA brought in the FFP rules it was in consultation with the EU who stated that such rules were not against anti-competition laws.

There's also an EC directive on it saying

Good governance in sport is a condition for the autonomy and self-regulation of sport organisations. While it is not possible to define a single model of governance in European sport across different disciplines and in view of various national differences, the Commission considers that there are inter-linked principles that underpin sport governance at European level, such as autonomy within the limits of the law, democracy, transparency and accountability in decision-making, and inclusiveness in the representation of interested stakeholders. Good governance in sport is a condition for addressing challenges regarding sport and the EU legal framework.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1389190399614&uri=CELEX:52011DC0012

Maybe RF can explain to those without brain cells why this is important Whistle

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:36 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

If that's the case what is the salary cap for, if it's not a legally binding agreement then why aren't Saracens and Bath in a spending arms race and disregarding it completely. If they were able to to this without sanction why are they trying to hide it in the books, instead of saying, "yes we pay Itoje £1 milion a year, live with it!".

Well exactly. Saracens and Bath would agree entirely. Newcastle not so much.

Have you seen "counsels opinion" on this ?

No

That still doesn't answer my point which put simply is "if the salary cap has no meaning why are they bothering with it" or more to the point, "if the salary cap has no meaning why are clubs trying to avoid being caught breaking it, rather than doing it in the open, given as you say they can't be sanctioned anyway"?

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Post by Irish Londoner on Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:36 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:

If that's the case what is the salary cap for, if it's not a legally binding agreement then why aren't Saracens and Bath in a spending arms race and disregarding it completely. If they were able to to this without sanction why are they trying to hide it in the books, instead of saying, "yes we pay Itoje £1 milion a year, live with it!".

Well exactly. Saracens and Bath would agree entirely. Newcastle not so much.

Have you seen "counsels opinion" on this ?

No

That still doesn't answer my point which put simply is "if the salary cap has no meaning why are they bothering with it" or more to the point, "if the salary cap has no meaning why are clubs trying to avoid being caught breaking it, rather than doing it in the open, given as you say they can't be sanctioned anyway"?

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Post by carpet baboon on Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:41 pm

The PRL is a private club. It has rules. You break them then they can tell you you can't be a member any more.
As long as the rules are not discriminatory it's all fine in the eyes of the law

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Post by Brendan on Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:26 pm

The Championship in Football in England has rules in relation to financial rules. Clubs have been sanctioned for breaking them. If an English Championship club which is alot richer hasn't found it is against EU rules I doubt Sarries would

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Post by Brendan on Thu Apr 11, 2019 5:36 pm

I know that Sarries are able to compete in Europe because of the squad they have but surely the other teams in league are getting fed up with Sarries being over the cap and then signing another big player.

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Post by king_carlos on Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:48 pm

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/domestic-club-rugby-union/32498/premiership-clubs-in-no-mood-to-show-mercy-to-saracens-over-salary-cap/

Growing whispers that Premiership Clubs are united in wanting Saracens to face sanctions due to revelations that they didn't disclose their business dealings with players to the salary cap manager. Apparently 12 of 13 shareholder clubs want an investigation.

Sounds like the lawyers will be brought in here...

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:01 pm

Brendan wrote:I know that Sarries are able to compete in Europe because of the squad they have but surely the other teams in league are getting fed up with Sarries being over the cap and then signing another big player.

Sarries don't sign that many big players. Liam Williams was the last big name back in 2017. Last summer was a pretty quiet one. They do maintain a pretty enviously large pool of talent. Most other clubs would be struggling to keep the internationals they've signed as well as the homegrown ones.

If they have been found to have played fast and loose with the rules then I suspect several clubs will be keen to put the boot in.

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Post by Brendan on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:10 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Brendan wrote:I know that Sarries are able to compete in Europe because of the squad they have but surely the other teams in league are getting fed up with Sarries being over the cap and then signing another big player.

Sarries don't sign that many big players. Liam Williams was the last big name back in 2017. Last summer was a pretty quiet one. They do maintain a pretty enviously large pool of talent. Most other clubs would be struggling to keep the internationals they've signed as well as the homegrown ones.

If they have been found to have played fast and loose with the rules then I suspect several clubs will be keen to put the boot in.

It's not so much that they are signing loads of top players but who was the last top player they couldn't keep a hold of. If they other clubs do nothing again Sarries will run riot on it.

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Post by BamBam on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:20 pm

Daly is a pretty big signing for them too, although no idea of the cap ramifications. Doubt Saracens care!

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Post by king_carlos on Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:26 pm

I often make the argument that Saracens will manage to offer players smaller contracts than competing clubs through some legitimate means. It's a fantastic set-up, players are clearly happy there, many came through the academy so want to stay, London is a lure for many, etc.

I also point out often that lots of clubs have a large number of high paid players. For instance Tigers with Genge, Cole, T Youngs and Polota-Nau are probably spending similarly large sums on their front row to Sarries with M Vunipola, George, Koch and Figallo. Across the board Tigers also have Ben Youngs, George Ford, May, Toomua, Tuilagi and Veainu who will command big wages.

M Vunipola
George
Koch
Figallo
Itoje
Kruis
Skelton
Burger
B Vunipola
Farrell
Barritt
Bosch
Taylor
Maitland
Williams
Goode

Add together all those internationals and it's impossible not to be skeptical though.

Burger and Bosch are gone for next season but in comes Daly and Itoje has just signed an enormous contract. Farrell and Itoje will be marquee players next season which means everyone else there needs to fit under the cap.

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Post by yappysnap on Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:10 am

By comparison Quins have Int players:

Marler
Sinkler
Horwill
Robshaw
Clifford
Care
Catrikilis
Brown
Saili

No where near Saracens list, and we are apparently right up to the cap (or have been before retirements).

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:56 am

You must missed Wigglesworth, Spencer and Lozowski in the backs, and Isiekwe, Clark and Tolofua in the pack. Except for Wiggy not the biggest earners, but the backs certainly will be on decent salaries.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:17 pm

I just left Wigglesworth, Lozowski and Tolofua off the list after some deliberation, LT. Looking back they will be in a similar pay bracket to Taylor and Barritt though.

Next season Sarries will be able to field a side with 7 Lions test starters. M Vunipola, George, Itoje, Kruis, Farrell, Williams and Daly.

That doesn't include Billy Vunipola either who missed the tour due to injury but would surely be a marquee player at any other club.

There comes a point when it's taking the proverbial.

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Post by miaow on Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:39 pm

Seems common knowledge now but the...'associated benefits', shall we say...of playing for Saracens is significant. The Blues coming out and saying they were offering Rhys Carre significantly more money than Saracens were: you can almost guarantee they weren't.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47900332

And that's for someone who's going to be, what, 3rd choice? Maybe 4th next season? Looks like he could become a serious player and push his was up to 2nd fairly soon, but crazy stuff all round really.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed May 01, 2019 3:56 pm

Here you go LD. More appropriate thread to discuss Saracens ignoring the cap. There was an older one in 2015 but not going looking for that.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed May 01, 2019 4:11 pm

Yes we are discussing it, as we all know they probably are, but none of us have any proof what so ever that they are guilty.

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