England tactics and playing off the hoof

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 07 Mar 2019, 1:44 pm

There's been a fair bit of trying to guess the reasons why England erred against Wales whether it be mentally switching off, losing their heads or simply being drilled not to go off piste etc. Good article on the beeb around Wisemantel and what the players are told. Six Nations 2019: England v Italy - Scott Wisemantel adds attacking edge - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47476967

Get the feeling after reading that the players are being encouraged to play what's in front of them however it seems that's after the initial plan and if it stalls. So far I've been pretty impressed with how Wisemantel has gone about things and to me England look a good deal more potent. Can't help bit feel he'll have been in Jones' ear saying that sometimes the script can be tipped up early doors if you see the chance.

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Post by majesticimperialman on Thu 07 Mar 2019, 2:19 pm

England came in to the 6ns with a game plan, plan (A) Which worked  great against Ireland and France. but did not work so well against Wales. and England had no plan (b) to change too and got out played in the second half by a Welsh team that did not want too lose at home to England.

I also think not bring on the finisher's as EJ likes to call them earlier than he did may also of contributed too England not being able to change direction when plan (A) clearly was not working like it did in the first two games.

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Post by Sharkey06 on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 1:26 pm

I think England's game plan after rounds 1 and 2 was pretty clear - kick deep plus high balls and put pressure on the opponents.  Wales had 2 weeks to prepare for this.  Without being wise after the event, it was obvious that England needed to vary the tactic by chipping over or through the midfield line to take advantage of space there or force the Welsh back 3 to push up.  I don't recall England employing that tactic at any point and that is where England get labelled with the lack of a plan B thing.  However I think it is more ingrained that that.  I do think England players really do lack the 'intelligence' to play a reactive game plan as New Zealand do.  I think France (despite their nature flair and instinct) and Ireland are also very much plan A teams.  When plan A is good enough to win great, but as against England if it isn't then they don't react.

Ireland have beaten New Zealand twice recently so plan A with the players they have can be effective.  Rather than increase the game intelligence of English players, what clubs normally do is bring in a New Zealander/Australian/South African to act as a sticking plaster, as do French clubs.  Scott Wisemantel may be a great coach, but without a change in the English game away from an emphasis on the physical to the mental, it is going to be the 2003 tactics of an outstanding pack, plus a world class goal kicker, plus a winger with a bit of magic that is going to win the 2019 world cup for England (and I don't think we have an outstanding pack).

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 1:39 pm

I think the pack is getting better with Billy and a proper 7. Not really a sxrummaging pack at all though. Happy to see how tomorrow goes there though as I think we are putting out out strongest scrummager to start.
Lack of adaptability is something that's been pointed at new zealand as well but they learned and went through a golden period of most decisions going their way.

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Post by Ricardo74 on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 1:45 pm

I was one of those who defended the "kick behind" tactics as being right for the games against Ireland and France, but that we'd probably have something else up our sleeves for the Wales game.

How wrong I was.

I've read that BBC article too, but I do wonder if - as Sharkey suggests - that the English game has coached a lot of the footballing intelligence out of the current crop, and that they're basically incapable of reacting on the hoof.

I would suggest that of the current squad, only Daly really displays the nous and genuine "top inch" of skill to go off piste and change a game. That's not to say the others aren't all highly skilled badass mofos, but possibly the reason EJ needs to get Daly into the team in whatever position he can.

Excited to see how Genge takes to the game tomorrow. I think he's got that "f*ck it" mentality which might well help. Our front row is proper exciting.

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Post by munkian on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 2:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's been a fair bit of trying to guess the reasons why England erred against Wales whether it be mentally switching off, losing their heads or simply being drilled not to go off piste etc. Good article on the beeb around Wisemantel and what the players are told. Six Nations 2019: England v Italy - Scott Wisemantel adds attacking edge - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47476967

Get the feeling after reading that the players are being encouraged to play what's in front of them however it seems that's after the initial plan and if it stalls. So far I've been pretty impressed with how Wisemantel has gone about things and to me England look a good deal more potent. Can't help bit feel he'll have been in Jones' ear saying that sometimes the script can be tipped up early doors if you see the chance.

You didn't, we just took apart your game plan bit by bit and you had no plan b.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 2:45 pm

munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There's been a fair bit of trying to guess the reasons why England erred against Wales whether it be mentally switching off, losing their heads or simply being drilled not to go off piste etc. Good article on the beeb around Wisemantel and what the players are told. Six Nations 2019: England v Italy - Scott Wisemantel adds attacking edge - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47476967

Get the feeling after reading that the players are being encouraged to play what's in front of them however it seems that's after the initial plan and if it stalls. So far I've been pretty impressed with how Wisemantel has gone about things and to me England look a good deal more potent. Can't help bit feel he'll have been in Jones' ear saying that sometimes the script can be tipped up early doors if you see the chance.

You didn't, we just took apart your game plan bit by bit and you had no plan b.


So, having no plan b was an error? So we did err.

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Post by munkian on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 2:49 pm

robbo277 wrote:
munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There's been a fair bit of trying to guess the reasons why England erred against Wales whether it be mentally switching off, losing their heads or simply being drilled not to go off piste etc. Good article on the beeb around Wisemantel and what the players are told. Six Nations 2019: England v Italy - Scott Wisemantel adds attacking edge - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47476967

Get the feeling after reading that the players are being encouraged to play what's in front of them however it seems that's after the initial plan and if it stalls. So far I've been pretty impressed with how Wisemantel has gone about things and to me England look a good deal more potent. Can't help bit feel he'll have been in Jones' ear saying that sometimes the script can be tipped up early doors if you see the chance.

You didn't, we just took apart your game plan bit by bit and you had no plan b.


So, having no plan b was an error? So we did err.

I was referring to the lads on the pitch - that is a coaching failure.
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Post by Cyril on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 2:51 pm

England had an off day. It happens. Should stand them in good stead. Tactics could do with tweaking sometimes.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 3:22 pm

munkian wrote:
robbo277 wrote:
munkian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:There's been a fair bit of trying to guess the reasons why England erred against Wales whether it be mentally switching off, losing their heads or simply being drilled not to go off piste etc. Good article on the beeb around Wisemantel and what the players are told. Six Nations 2019: England v Italy - Scott Wisemantel adds attacking edge - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47476967

Get the feeling after reading that the players are being encouraged to play what's in front of them however it seems that's after the initial plan and if it stalls. So far I've been pretty impressed with how Wisemantel has gone about things and to me England look a good deal more potent. Can't help bit feel he'll have been in Jones' ear saying that sometimes the script can be tipped up early doors if you see the chance.

You didn't, we just took apart your game plan bit by bit and you had no plan b.


So, having no plan b was an error? So we did err.

I was referring to the lads on the pitch - that is a coaching failure.

The players on the pitch didn't have an answer in that second half, but that's not 100% coaching. Seeing Liam Williams claim every kick would have been demoralising, but seeing Tuilagi round Parkes and beat him for pace should have been a hint that we could have had more joy ball-in-hand. Players like Youngs and Farrell with all their experience could have changed the plan. If - as Wisemantel says - they coach two prescribed phases and then play it as they see it, then they should be prepared to play multiple phases.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri 08 Mar 2019, 4:31 pm

Ford should have come on.

Farrell should have gone off.
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