Wales vs Ireland - Round 5

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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 10 Mar 2019, 6:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

SAT 16 MAR 2019
GUINNESS SIX NATIONS
Kick Off 14:45
Principality Stadium

Teams TBA Thursday the 14th March

Referee Angus Gardner (Australia)
Assistant 1 Ben O'Keeffe (New Zelaand)
Assistant 2 Karl Dickson (England)
TMO Marius Jonker (South Africa)


Wales:

L Williams (Saracens); North (Ospreys), J Davies (Scarlets), Parkes (Scarlets), Adams (Worcester); Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), G Davies (Scarlets); R Evans (Scarlets), Owens (Scarlets), Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Beard (Ospreys), AW Jones (Ospreys, capt), Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Tipuric (Ospreys), Moriarty (Dragons).

Replacements: Dee (Dragons), Smith (Ospreys), D Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Ball (Scarlets), Wainwright (Dragons), A Davies (Ospreys), Biggar (Northampton), Watkin (Ospreys).



Ireland:


Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Aki, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best (capt), Furlong, Beirne, Ryan, O'Mahony, O'Brien, Stander.

Replacements: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Porter, Roux, Conan, Marmion, Carty, Larmour.


Last edited by maestegmafia on Sun 10 Mar 2019, 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:23 am

Schmidt hasn’t a clue. He is a busted flush. The game we play is one dimensional. It gets you so far. We weren’t even at the races today. We will be lucky to beat Samoa and Scotland in the wc. Rassie Erasmus will not only ambush us the boks will win by 20 points

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Post by Goosestepper on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 2:43 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Schmidt hasn’t a clue. He is a busted flush. The game we play is one dimensional. It gets you so far. We weren’t even at the races today. We will be lucky to beat Samoa and Scotland in the wc. Rassie Erasmus will not only ambush us the boks will win by 20 points

You're very vocal on here when Ireland play badly and you seem to have an overwhelming dislike of Schmidt.

Most would say his tenure as Ireland head coach has been a successful one... if you disagree what would success have looked like for you the last 4 years & what changes would have been needed to meet your expectations.

Not trying to get your back up but keen for your perspective. We will beat Scotland and Samoa easily but not spectacularly in the group stages, however agree on both counts that we lack a plan B & that SA will beat us and make it at least to a final (they're my bolter for the RWC)

Cheers


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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 4:41 am

WELL DONE Wales...! Seen more grand slams in the last 20 years than in the rest of my life and I was 62 in 2005. Excellent to see the hard fought championship come to fruition, trophies and another place higher in the world rankings as wales plod towards Tokyo.

Well played Ireland you’ll be a stronger team because of this championship and it might put you a bit more under the radar before the RWC which I think will be a huge benefit to you.

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Post by Pie on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 5:39 am

I think Schmidt bit hard on the roof this week, exactly what Gats expected so he played him. Ireland's best chance was to use their exceptional backs to run in tries not turn it into a mud fest that Wales would surely prevail in. Check mate.

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Post by Scarpia on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 7:24 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Schmidt hasn’t a clue. He is a busted flush. The game we play is one dimensional. It gets you so far. We weren’t even at the races today. We will be lucky to beat Samoa and Scotland in the wc. Rassie Erasmus will not only ambush us the boks will win by 20 points

Well it got you as far as 2 wins against the All Blacks. Many of us Welshmen would like that.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 7:28 am

That was some performance from Wales, and a bit of a no-show from Ireland as a consequence. You can get some lucky breaks along the road to a Grand Slam but you don't win one just by being lucky. You have to be the best team too, and Wales were certainly the best this year.

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Post by carpet baboon on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 7:56 am

According to the stats POM made 2 tackles. 2. How is that possible for a flanker ?

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Post by Yoda on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 8:06 am

Well done Wales slams are never easy clap . As for Ireland hard lines played like I haven't seen in decades, looked insipid. Taylorman does come up with a bit of sense hidden within his own sardonic manner unfortunately. It's a pity people can't be genuine in their praise.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:20 am

Taylorman, you say Ireland should be concerned. They met sides operating from their own season, sides that know them well and sides with their own crowds.... and the inference is they've been found out. Perhaps so. Future will tell all. Then you go on to say SH sides will not be at the same level as last year.... and the inference is they'll be much better. Perhaps so. Future will tell all.

Firstly in response, and I've said this to you more than once, personally speaking I'm not concerned about this presumed SH v NH thing that you keep championing. To me it's Ireland v everyone else. So SH will be better in 2019? I'm prepared to believe you but I don't care in that it's just three or four more sides that you add to the mix of four other NH sides you have to prepare to beat. So why not just look out for and speak for your own Nation rather than adopting the others? It's much handier to debate one Nation verses another.
This Six Nations, well despite what they might say about the few other gears they've held back, I've seen two sides give oodles of emotional and physical energy to this contest. I know energy consumption when I see it and Wales have thrown the kitchen sink at this contest and reaped the rewards. They may say they held back attacking efforts but that still isn't holding back on the energy levels required to win Six Nations. When you're not attacking, you're doing monumental shifts at defending. Less attack is not less gears used.
England too will say they could have been even more lethal. Well yes, every side always says there is more in the tank. But I think both sides showed their World Cup hand both in style and in energy they mean to bring.
You said something about some idea that Ireland considered themselves or were considered team of 2019? I don't know where you read that, the year has just begun. But if I can say anything about Ireland then I'd say we threw energy at 2018 like Wales and England are now doing. We did the hard defending stints - we're renowned for those attritional shifts of defending to win games. Our players know what it feels like. We've also not been too blunt in attack in 2018. We know how to win by scoring tries too.
Ireland had a successful but tough year in 2018. That's a lot of energy to have such a year - for many of the players that means equally hard club year. I don't see the coaching demands on contact and overall energy input being there this Six Nations. They know the levels needed and they haven't been demanding them from players or we would have seen much more ferocious attention to breakdown areas and much more speed in collisions.
So what are Ireland playing at? Well maybe trying to have a break in a year that won't have many. Maybe trying to give their players a breather from the usual physical efforts demanded. You can't go forever. We had to play the Six Nations but the players are humans and I can see elements of player management in the intensity ( or in other words gaping lack of it) of our Six Nations performances.

Time will tell all but Ireland (players and fans) might one day be thankful for such a low energy defence of the Six Nations title



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Post by Yoda on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:43 am

It's been a funny 6 nations for both Ireland and England. The ones quite clearly who have done a really great job in terms of world Cup prep is Wales who now have momentum and belief. Ireland looked lost with a misfiring sexton and Murray and England are lacking nous. Both could cause problems for anyone but knock out Rugby is different it's the 10% mental capability that sees you across the line.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:49 am

But both Ireland and England know that - they've both won Slams recently enough. They know about the mental side.
The distracting thing this year is obviously that WC. Both Ireland and England have gone to WCs highly fancied on the back of some antics in Six Nations. Perhaps it is Wales turn to go in highly fancied this time. But there are still warm ups to play. So depending on what emphasis coaches put on those games, anybody's bubble might bust in advance of that WC.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 10:04 am

Pie wrote:I think Schmidt bit hard on the roof this week, exactly what Gats expected so he played him. Ireland's best chance was to use their exceptional backs to run in tries not turn it into a mud fest that Wales would surely prevail in. Check mate.

I dont think it would have made any difference. Both teams are able to play in all conditions.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 10:05 am

Geen sport voor watjes wrote:Schmidt hasn’t a clue. He is a busted flush. The game we play is one dimensional. It gets you so far. We weren’t even at the races today. We will be lucky to beat Samoa and Scotland in the wc. Rassie Erasmus will not only ambush us the boks will win by 20 points

Snore, bitter Cork gobshite alert.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 10:07 am

It was a bad loss but going from a slam to third in this competition is fine. I still think we are in good enough shape going to the RWC. Still only 3 losses in 2 years. Thats less than most sides.

Wales on grand slam day are always tough.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 10:59 am

Joe Schmidt does have to compromise now on Ireland's style.
You might say that Gatland has always used other side's strengths against them. In Ireland's case it was once dominance in the air, those accurate kick chases. Gats saw and soon enough Wales were much better and hungrier exponents of it. Now robust shifts at defence. Doing it with more fire than us, surging into breakdowns and viciously retaining ball or gaining ball. Where once Ireland ruled the world of choke tackle hold ups, we now see Wales master the art more effectively when they attempt them.
Ireland have to play the style of game that the majority of its players play in the club game. As Scotland play to a Glasgow pattern, Ireland have to ask more questions of the opposition in a Leinster style - and that is a more explosive game that doesn't give defences time to reset so easily phase after phase after phase. We are/have become too tied in to this 'safe' process that can only be effective when players are up for the physical challenge it forces onto them.
We can have the defensive element sure. We can have the 'boring' possession keeping phase stuff - sure. But there is no doubt we have to give the team and players more coached avenues to break out in unison and methodically use a running/offloading game to evade collisions and increase the adrenaline levels that also increase energy.
I do not believe the players enjoy the rugby we play. They've enjoyed the wins, they mostly trust it to give them the opportunities to win, but it's not the brand of Rugby young men become professionals to play. It's maybe too late for Schmidt but Farrell has to have a big revolution now and get players emotions back into the nuts and bolts of playing for their Nation. They have to be given a gameplan they can get enjoyment from whilst holding on to Schmidt's best tactics as Elements not as overall framework.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 11:12 am

Yeah the biggest lesson I reckon is how to deal with the ref better. Gardner wasnt very sympathetic early on but Ireland did not cope well with it and thats just poor really. If it doesnt go your way find another way rather than get frustrated.

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Post by gavstar on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:08 pm

I was there.....as they say. Alyn Wyn was man of the match. We were fortunate that North went off. Biggar was outstanding at 10 , having come on after only 8 minutes , he ran the show with his kicking game, keeping us where we needed to be.
Also Biggars defence was first class.   Anscombe in the 10 channel would not have been as good...his defence has always been hit or miss, letting two tries in over this tournament and was wrong footed with another welsh player in this game for the irish try.
 Halfpenny and Biggar have terrific stats for goal kicking, both have much longer range than anscombe, and apart from one kick the rest were 33,36 metres and infront or only slightly to side of the posts. You expect your kicker to get the points .
Don't get carried away on a wave of euphoria over Anscombe. Apart from 8 minutes, he played at 15 , not 10.....who controlled the game ? Biggar.
Could Biggar or Halfpenny nailed those kicks? Most certainly. They have both done so many times without getting man of the match......and Anscombe has played at 15 for a good part of his career so he should have managed comfortably in the position.
Many around me and throughout the evening have said the same....Alyn Wyn man of the match and the tournament

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:09 pm

Yeah AWJ for me too

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:24 pm

Of course it was AWJ. But he won't mind a kid getting it. His mind is on bigger things.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:29 pm

Congrats Wales, ugliest rugby I have seen since England a long time ago, but it is mighty effective.

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Post by Geen sport voor watjes on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:47 pm

Joe Schmidt has been the best coach ever for Ireland bar none-  the problem is he has reached the end of his shelf life. His teams play a specific style that does not change this has worked well up to now (or rather last November). Outside of beating an out of sorts Scotland we stumbled over the line against Italy and given how bad france are...

Both Wales and England handed us our backsides big time. One thing about Schmidt was that his teams were always hard to beat but both those losses have been comprehensive. Our attacking ability is non existent and we are dependent on a number of players in certain areas and when they all dont perform to a certain level we are goosed. In addition with all the talk of developing depth we dont really have it. Or Schmidt in reality doesnt trust the second string.

We have so much possession of the ball it is a sin what we do with it (or dont do with it) -we probably have had the ball longer than all the other teams combined.

Give the way we are playing at the moment who knows what will happen at the world cup....but its clear that the team and individual confidence is low and teams are beginning to find it easier to beat us.



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Post by No9 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:54 pm

Predicted a Welsh win, but only by 2 points and that came from the heart not the head.

But what a game.... Ok, not the most beautiful, but it was so clinical, taking every (nearly) point offered to us to pull away. Its game management like that we need to maintain for the RWC.

I was thrilled... well done boys.. As Alun Wyn said, Gats contract isnt up yet, he still has a job to finish. But he's now nailed on the title of best Welsh coach ever. I'm sure he's closer to landing the job he wants, but a RWC win I think will nail it for him.

We'll miss him, and Wayne Pivac has some mighty big boots to fill next year.

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 12:59 pm

Gave Taylor the benefit of the doubt but as he never talks about anything else, can we keep this thread on the game? Happy to discuss Ireland and why I think the problems aren't that bad, but let's not make this about NH v SH or any other boring, repetitive chat that's been done over and over?

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 1:02 pm

Darn tootin' analysis there DOD. Spot on.
We need new ingredients but our caution approach won't allow them in before the WC. We still might battle our way into the play off stages but those bodies will be mighty blasted by the time even a sniff at a semi final or final comes onto the radar.

The guy I'm most surprised by is Farrell. Wasn't he the guy that was supposed to put a set of teeth into our work? He seems to be pretty laid back every time I see him standing around with hands in pockets. Is he really the guy putting fire and brimstone into this side?

Hope we picked the right successor.

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 1:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:Joe Schmidt does have to compromise now on Ireland's style.  
You might say that Gatland has always used other side's strengths against them.

This is an interesting point - and from a specific mental and tactical viewpoint as well.

Against England, Wales basically kicked back at England, played the aerial game, and said 'fine, we'll play like you' in the opening 20 minutes. Against Ireland yesterday, one of the first lineouts after the try involved Liam Williams being front man in the lineout and taking the ball on the peel. Basically, similar to the Earls move last game.

There's some kind of psychological 'thing' that happens there, surely? 'Not only do we know what you do, but we can do it as well'.

Obviously your point about using strengths against the opposition is more than just that, but as a specific, set-piece move type thing, I wonder if that was part of it. Early on, just set the tone - "we've done our homework, what have you got?"

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 1:15 pm

gavstar wrote:I was there.....as they say. Alyn Wyn was man of the match. We were fortunate that North went off. Biggar was outstanding at 10 , having come on after only 8 minutes , he ran the show with his kicking game, keeping us where we needed to be.
Also Biggars defence was first class.   Anscombe in the 10 channel would not have been as good...his defence has always been hit or miss, letting two tries in over this tournament and was wrong footed with another welsh player in this game for the irish try.
 Halfpenny and Biggar have terrific stats for goal kicking, both have much longer range than anscombe, and apart from one kick the rest were 33,36 metres and infront or only slightly to side of the posts. You expect your kicker to get the points .
Don't get carried away on a wave of euphoria over Anscombe. Apart from 8 minutes, he played at 15 , not 10.....who controlled the game ? Biggar.
Could Biggar or Halfpenny nailed those kicks? Most certainly. They have both done so many times without getting man of the match......and Anscombe has played at 15 for a good part of his career so he should have managed comfortably in the position.
Many around me and throughout the evening have said the same....Alyn Wyn man of the match and the tournament

Not the time to criticise Anscombe. Anscombe played in the '10' position quite a lot in that game (which is no longer first receiver). It was a hybrid 10-15 game for both Biggar and Anscombe yesterday.

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 1:21 pm

No9 wrote:I was thrilled... well done boys.. As Alun Wyn said, Gats contract isnt up yet, he still has a job to finish. But he's now nailed on the title of best Welsh coach ever. I'm sure he's closer to landing the job he wants, but a RWC win I think will nail it for him.

We'll miss him, and Wayne Pivac has some mighty big boots to fill next year.

Also not the thread to call out all the nonsense - from players, coaches, fans, and the media - that has been levelled at Gatland over the years. Lots of it is because of Wales, rather than just him, and the perception of inferiority that comes with it. Lots to do with the Lions as well and how that works in the British Isles. But taking Gatland as he is, at what he's brought to Wales, and there's no doubt he's an unbelievable coach. One of the best in the world.

Tactically, he's getting better and better. Yes, NZ were complacent in 2017 - and maybe a bit arrogant as well - but to get the result he did with the Lions out there is insane. The SH results could/should have been better, and maybe Wales could/should have had another 6Ns title or two...and maybe even a RWC win as well...but as Gatland himself says, he tends to get it right on the biggest stage.

Wales will miss him. He's done wonders for us as a rugby country and I think there's a complacency - from the WRU down - that doesn't recognise how important he is in bridging the gap between the regions/the organisation of the country, and what it takes to win 6Ns, be competitive against the SH, and contribute massively to successful Lions tours. For all the sentimental back slapping that will occur between nor and the RWC, and afterwards, I'm not sure there's the fire and desire to actually make up what will be lost when Gatland leaves - I'm not sure many people recognise just how good he is and how much work is needed to restructure the game so a less talented coach can have similar success due to 'better' domestic circumstances. But for another day...

I hope Pivac does well but Gatland is a test match animal is ever there was one.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 1:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:Taylorman, you say Ireland should be concerned.  They met sides operating from their own season, sides that know them well and sides with their own crowds.... and the inference is they've been found out.  Perhaps so.  Future will tell all.  Then you go on to say SH sides will not be at the same level as last year.... and the inference is they'll be much better.  Perhaps so.  Future will tell all.

Firstly in response, and I've said this to you more than once, personally speaking I'm not concerned about this presumed SH v NH thing that you keep championing.  To me it's Ireland v everyone else.  So SH will be better in 2019?  I'm prepared to believe you but I don't care in that it's just three or four more sides that you add to the mix of four other NH sides you have to prepare to beat.  So why not just look out for and speak for your own Nation rather than adopting the others?  It's much handier to debate one Nation verses another.
This Six Nations, well despite what they might say about the few other gears they've held back, I've seen two sides give oodles of emotional and physical energy to this contest.  I know energy consumption when I see it and Wales have thrown the kitchen sink at this contest and reaped the rewards.  They may say they held back attacking efforts but that still isn't holding back on the energy levels required to win Six Nations.  When you're not attacking, you're doing monumental shifts at defending.  Less attack is not less gears used.
England too will say they could have been even more lethal.  Well yes, every side always says there is more in the tank.  But I think both sides showed their World Cup hand both in style and in energy they mean to bring.
You said something about some idea that Ireland considered themselves or were considered team of 2019?  I don't know where you read that, the year has just begun.  But if I can say anything about Ireland then I'd say we threw energy at 2018 like Wales and England are now doing.  We did the hard defending stints - we're renowned for those attritional shifts of defending to win games.  Our players know what it feels like.  We've also not been too blunt in attack in 2018.  We know how to win by scoring tries too.
Ireland had a successful but tough year in 2018.  That's a lot of energy to have such a year - for many of the players that means equally hard club year.  I don't see the coaching demands on contact and overall energy input being there this Six Nations.  They know the levels needed and they haven't been demanding them from players or we would have seen much more ferocious attention to breakdown areas and much more speed in collisions.
So what are Ireland playing at?  Well maybe trying to have a break in a year that won't have many.  Maybe trying to give their players a breather from the usual physical efforts demanded.  You can't go forever.  We had to play the Six Nations but the players are humans and I can see elements of player management in the intensity ( or in other words gaping lack of it) of our Six Nations performances.

Time will tell all but Ireland (players and fans) might one day be thankful for such a low energy defence of the Six Nations title



Oh well its all over now and much of what I have been saying has cone to light. There was a genuine mistaken belief of Irelands true standing end of last year and thats come through very clearly.

I get NHers dont see things as NH vs SH and thats because they as fans dont have to put up with the massive exodus we do every year. So if thats gonna happen, people are going to comment. Im not alone on this, its annoyingly accepted these days this way and if I didnt see the proliferation of our players flooding the scene like never before, I would probably be more respectful.

Theyre choice to go, sure, but no thought at any level by the north on the overall impact of the game in the SH, and at the same time, talk of closing the gap, as though the actual quality is improving without that factor.

Watching these sides trip over eachother is quite frankly amusing. And Im just one with a view. Just because it doesnt gel with others is no reason not to have it. Im not overly disrespectful personally to posters and simply offer an alternative view. I also accept People wont agree with me but for me perspective on anything rugby is important. Many hold my view but theres the dont cut off the hand that feeds you argument that contains the hypocrisy in those views. I dont care that thats the case. As a fan, Ill voice my dispproval of the sheer volume of IP being shipped out in different ways.

Anyway, its all over now, the long haul begins and as far as I can see not a lot happening in the north from here in other than how the sides make the bes5 use of that time with at best club and a false test schedule in place.

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 1:46 pm

Have a day off...

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 1:48 pm

"We've done our homework. What have you got"

Em...... well, you see, sir, like it wasn't our fault or nothing but....em....the dog ate it?

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Post by gavstar on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 2:07 pm

I'm not critical of Anscombe...just factual. After so much time previously spent on who should be 10 , I was pointing out he had mom for playing 15 ,went there after just 8 minutes of the match.
Half p and more so liam Williams have also been a threat from 15 . How would Anscombe have played at 10 for that match...who knows. But fact remains that Biggar controlled that game, in a manner which we know he can .
Anscome is different, but would he have been as good as Biggar on the day....no. Seige gun kicking, high balls, immense tackling from Biggar.
I said we d win if Biggar took control at 10 and he came on and did just that . The 10 debate is well and truly still open.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 2:30 pm

carpet baboon wrote:According to the stats POM made 2 tackles. 2. How is that possible for a flanker ?

laughing Whistle

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Post by Pie on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 8:21 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Pie wrote:I think Schmidt bit hard on the roof this week, exactly what Gats expected so he played him. Ireland's best chance was to use their exceptional backs to run in tries not turn it into a mud fest that Wales would surely prevail in. Check mate.

I dont think it would have made any difference. Both teams are able to play in all conditions.

It is patently evident after that 80 minutes that 1 side cannot play in all conditions QED Schmidt made a poor decision.

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 8:23 pm

Yeah, they can. It's just they can't play in Any conditions this 6N season. Wink

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:45 pm

Pie wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Pie wrote:I think Schmidt bit hard on the roof this week, exactly what Gats expected so he played him. Ireland's best chance was to use their exceptional backs to run in tries not turn it into a mud fest that Wales would surely prevail in. Check mate.

I dont think it would have made any difference. Both teams are able to play in all conditions.

It is patently evident after that 80 minutes that 1 side cannot play in all conditions QED Schmidt made a poor decision.

What evidence do you have it was the conditions that resulted in a Wales win? None Id imagine. Maybe Wales won because they are right now a better side?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:47 pm

Wales also didnt play very in Paris in tough conditions earlier in the competition but they may also have been rusty as it was the first game.

Of course Ireland can play rugby in wet conditions. Its a winter sport and it rains here all the time.


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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:48 pm

He gets a lot of flak but for me AWJ is the player of the tournament for his performances v England and Wales.

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Post by Pie on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:49 pm

Dont be obtuse. Ireland couldn't play their game in those conditions. Wales were the better side of course, they won. But Schmidt gave up the one advantage his side might have been able to get by having Sexton run an effective running game in a quality back line. Instead it became an arm wrestle up front which Wales would always win against a bunch of has beens like Healy and SOB.

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Post by Pie on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:50 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Wales also didnt play very in Paris in tough conditions earlier in the competition but they may also have been rusty as it was the first game.

Of course Ireland can play rugby in wet conditions. Its a winter sport and it rains here all the time.


Yes they can, but they didnt did they.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 9:58 pm

Pie wrote:Dont be obtuse. Ireland couldn't play their game in those conditions. Wales were the better side of course, they won. But Schmidt gave up the one advantage his side might have been able to get by having Sexton run an effective running game in a quality back line. Instead it became an arm wrestle up front which Wales would always win against a bunch of has beens like Healy and SOB.

You are claiming Ireland couldnt play because of the conditions. Sorry there is no evidence for that. Id imagine more prominent reasons for the bad performance were pressure from Wales, pressure from a raucous crowd, maybe frustration from an unsympathic ref or perhaps just being outplayed.

Ireland also had less posession than they normally would which their normal game plan relies on. In part because of the amount of penalties they conceded.  Weather has no real impact on penalties.

If anything Irelands game is fairly well suited to bad weather conditions. I doubt a dry day would have made any difference but we will never know so its all conjecture. Sorry I dont buy it.

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 11:21 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:He gets a lot of flak but for me AWJ is the player of the tournament for his performances v England and Wales.

Only on these boards and other niche online rugby communities. And only from a select few idiots.

EDIT: Also, he was clearly playing with a nasty muscle sprain for about 70 minutes. Come on...


Last edited by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 11:46 pm

I read after the game Schimdt came out and spoke about "genuine rugby fans" not losing faith.

This, to me, is a codified way of saying: we threw the tournament lads. Particularly after losing to England. It's all about Japan.

I wouldn't worry if I were Irish. Wales' worst performance came in the 2010/2011 season as Gatland was planning the rebuild. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ireland and Schmidt pull off something similar. SOB's not going to the WC - he's behind VDF and Leavy. Carbery will play a bigger part than he has so far. Jordi Murphy going to Ulster - wouldn't be surprised if that was a view to make him a squad player. But it'll also be tactical.

For all the talk of Schmidt's Ireland being boring, Leinster played some great rugby under him. I don't believe you can go from controlled, disciplined, coached rugby in the AIs/2018 Grand Slam, to what we witnessed this 6Ns without the coaching staff taking their foot off the gas, and putting it...erm...elsewhere.

If anything, although Gatland schooled Schmidt once again yesterday, Schmidt is taking a leaf out of the Gatplan: it's all about the greater good. See the big picture. He's got the GS in 2018; he's even got 2/3 v the ABs. It's all about Japan - might have been a bit different had they not lost to England, but it's all been about Japan after that. He'll have learnt a lot from yesterday/the tournament as a whole in terms of playing personnel, too. Who to trust, who's past it, who rises to the occasion, who goes off script, who leads etc.

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Post by miaow on Sun 17 Mar 2019, 11:51 pm

I'm hoping there's an extra gear or two for Wales. I agree with Fly when he says Wales have been operating with full emotions/intensity for much of the 6Ns - no doubt we saw that v England, and even against Scotland, the defensive effort was intense. The concentration only seemed to waver after the 80 minutes was up yesterday, letting Larmour score. The worry is Wales have 'given away' too much to their opposition - Australia in the groups, and then whoever else beyond - by operating at a level not far from their best. Too much is now 'known' about them, not least in terms of playing personnel, with the 6 and 4 shirts being nailed down this tournament.

The conditions of the Irish and French games didn't allow Wales to play with much width, and England's physicality generally shut that down as well. Italy was a bit of a write off with the reserves, and they defended for 40 v Scotland. In all, Wales haven't done very much attacking work at all, yet they have been more ruthless, more efficient, and more threatening that I've seen them for a long time. Not just scoring good tries by throwing it around dsperately eiher - JD2's v Sco, Hill's v Eng were really good, multi phase tries that cam from holding the ball in the 22 - but also chipping away with kicks against the best 2 opponents they've faced...and without Halfpenny.

There are some good players to come back for Wales who didn't make the starting 23 or play at all this 6Ns: Halfpenny, Scott Williams, Shingler, Ellis Jenkins, Faletau. And then others who add something different - Amos, Steff Evans, Samson, Elias, Wyn Jones. Plus the fallbacks like Jamie Roberts, Charteris, Brad Davies, Lydiate etc.

If Wales have the confidence and belief that they can beat whatever Australia throw at them - and that might be Quade Cooper and Genia again with they way they're performing in Super Rugby - they have more than enough to actually do it. If they top the group, they'll likely face Argentina or France - not easy, but beatable. I think they'd also be avoiding the harder SF draw as well - NZ likely to top their group and play the runner up of Scotland and Ireland. Therefore Ireland likely to face SA in their QF, and Wales would play the winner. Against those teams in this RWC cycle, they've got a 2-1-1 record v Ireland and a 4-0-0 record against SA. Promising stuff.

Much is said about predictions and there's always the 'well, Wales could win a GS...or they be rubbish' every 6Ns. But it felt like it this time - more in terms of they could quietly win the slam without much fanfare. And they did. They look better than they ever have done under Gatland and Edwards and it still feels like there's more to come from a few individuals, particularly in attack. It just feels like Wales are going to make a RWC semi-final, and possibly go beyond. I don't think they'll win it but I do think they can 'easily'/plausibly make the final. Lots of stumbling blocks, not least Fiji who look excellent, but if they beat Australia, a bit like with France this 6Ns, I think they'll make the final. If they don't face NZ they stand an unbelievable chance of winning it outright.

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Post by Pie on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 3:41 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Pie wrote:Dont be obtuse. Ireland couldn't play their game in those conditions. Wales were the better side of course, they won. But Schmidt gave up the one advantage his side might have been able to get by having Sexton run an effective running game in a quality back line. Instead it became an arm wrestle up front which Wales would always win against a bunch of has beens like Healy and SOB.

You are claiming Ireland couldnt play because of the conditions. Sorry there is no evidence for that. Id imagine more prominent reasons for the bad performance were pressure from Wales, pressure from a raucous crowd, maybe frustration from an unsympathic ref or perhaps just being outplayed.

Ireland also had less posession than they normally would which their normal game plan relies on. In part because of the amount of penalties they conceded.  Weather has no real impact on penalties.

If anything Irelands game is fairly well suited to bad weather conditions. I doubt a dry day would have made any difference but we will never know so its all conjecture. Sorry I dont buy it.

You dont have to 'buy it' as you dont understand it. Dry weather would have made all the difference to their game. thumbsup

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Post by Taylorman on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 6:51 am

Well Wales almost made the final in 2011 and only just fell short to the horribly inconsistent French of that year, Warbs card not helping. Thats how easy things can happen so whether one thinks they can win, or are good enough, often its one or two moments that splits the diff. The world cup especially is chokka full of historic final moments...france vs oz and Wales vs Oz in 87, ire and nz vs Oz in 91, oz vz england, SA vs France and SA vs NZ in 95, the final in 03, France vs NZ in 07 etc etc and Ive probably missed a few more...scot vs Oz 2015.

No reasons those moments wont again split any one of Wales, Eng, Ire, SA, oz, NZ...but one things for sure the winner is in that 6.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 8:53 am

Pie wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Pie wrote:Dont be obtuse. Ireland couldn't play their game in those conditions. Wales were the better side of course, they won. But Schmidt gave up the one advantage his side might have been able to get by having Sexton run an effective running game in a quality back line. Instead it became an arm wrestle up front which Wales would always win against a bunch of has beens like Healy and SOB.

You are claiming Ireland couldnt play because of the conditions. Sorry there is no evidence for that. Id imagine more prominent reasons for the bad performance were pressure from Wales, pressure from a raucous crowd, maybe frustration from an unsympathic ref or perhaps just being outplayed.

Ireland also had less posession than they normally would which their normal game plan relies on. In part because of the amount of penalties they conceded.  Weather has no real impact on penalties.

If anything Irelands game is fairly well suited to bad weather conditions. I doubt a dry day would have made any difference but we will never know so its all conjecture. Sorry I dont buy it.

You dont have to 'buy it' as you dont understand it. Dry weather would have made all the difference to their game. thumbsup

We will never know if it would have made a difference. You certainly havent presented much evidence it would have though so not a lot to "understand". The decision to leave it open seems to have gotten under your skin though.

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Post by Goosestepper on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 9:25 am

Some good points there. I was at the Aus tests July with a couple of ex wallabies. They couldn't believe how much territory and possession we had that didn't convert to points (Not unlike the England game last month).

It'll be interesting to see the response.... I know its fanciful but I would love to see RoG come into the RWC camp and the end of the Super Rugby Season. He seems to be well regarded at the Crusaders which must mean he's bringing something positive. Whether it's RoG or not I'd like to see some diversity in thinking/ideas brought into the group.

My main concern is that a lot of those players look mentally shot and its proving infectious, we shipped 7 points in the first 2 mins of the England and Wales games and completely lost our heads trying to chase the game.

Some big calls over the next couple of months perhaps

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 9:43 am

One big thing I'd do, which perhaps seems somewhat unrelated to the overall performance of Ireland in this championship, but without pause, I'd strip Sexton of kicking duties. I don't care what stats anybody hauls up, he's not comfortable enough at it and not consistent enough at it. We see in that Welsh game how much metronomic confident kicking can divide teams on the score line when tries aren't coming.
I never trust Sexton to separate us sufficiently either with penalties or conversions. His entire body language gives off the whiff of "I hope I get this 'cause my confidence might implode if I don't". And his pals always have the same look: "I hope he gets this or it's going to be a much tougher game for us as it'll all have to come from tries rather than points".
Sexton is a great player and I'm sure he'll shrug off his current form - but even when in top form, there has got to be a more reliable place kicker on that team. Like I keep saying, it doesn't have to be the guy with 10 on his shirt. Or....failing the consideration of that...we need a better kicking coach because with virtually all other top sides the techniques seem way more scientific than the 'chance' ones Sexton uses.

Another point. Devon Toner. Said before the Six Nations that he is dangerously becoming an Ireland undroppable. Perhaps this Six Nations proved it. We don't want undroppables. Schmidt has a lot of work to do in that famously analytical brain of his.

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Post by carpet baboon on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 10:31 am

For me, after the first two games, it was clear we weren't going to win the tournament, and sexton and Murray were dreadfully short of there best.
That was the time to start Cooney and Carty. Both were in form, both are excellent kickers, both can run an attacking backline, and both have shown they can manage a game.
Starting them for 3 games in a row would have put pressure on the other 2 to sort there games out, and given them both the reward their form deserved.
Also sticking with Jordan at 15 would have worked.
I see this tournament as a wasted opportunity

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Post by The Great Aukster on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 10:35 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Pie wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Pie wrote:Dont be obtuse. Ireland couldn't play their game in those conditions. Wales were the better side of course, they won. But Schmidt gave up the one advantage his side might have been able to get by having Sexton run an effective running game in a quality back line. Instead it became an arm wrestle up front which Wales would always win against a bunch of has beens like Healy and SOB.

You are claiming Ireland couldnt play because of the conditions. Sorry there is no evidence for that. Id imagine more prominent reasons for the bad performance were pressure from Wales, pressure from a raucous crowd, maybe frustration from an unsympathic ref or perhaps just being outplayed.

Ireland also had less posession than they normally would which their normal game plan relies on. In part because of the amount of penalties they conceded.  Weather has no real impact on penalties.

If anything Irelands game is fairly well suited to bad weather conditions. I doubt a dry day would have made any difference but we will never know so its all conjecture. Sorry I dont buy it.

You dont have to 'buy it' as you dont understand it. Dry weather would have made all the difference to their game. thumbsup

We will never know if it would have made a difference. You certainly havent presented much evidence it would have though so not a lot to "understand". The decision to leave it open seems to have gotten under your skin though.

Didn't Gatland want the roof closed? Both coaches knew the weather forecast, so if Schmidt got it wrong so did Gatland!

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