Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

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Post by dynamark on Tue 26 Feb 2019, 5:16 pm

First topic message reminder :

I think its a done deal -no doubt he will be sat with the owner tonight
Villa should be a big big club remember going to cup semis there but probably need an owner willing to throw in some quick money .
No messing around in football these days from any of the owners.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 11:38 am

Grimsby is a reasonable model for regeneration. Tricky to get to but has gone for wind energy in a big way, with some level of government investment to encourage people to stay, local workers/students  are being trained through the companies so the better jobs aren’t just going to workers moving into the area. It’s had some housing investment and port regeneration to make it a bit more appealing.
The turbines themselves aren’t made locally, but many firms have sprung up producing parts. Obviously tax breaks for these kind of start ups and potentially green industries is a good thing. Note, smart and fair taxation, not just simply high or low as Super views it.
If an area can find some form of niche industry they can make progress, it’s not about rivalling the South East, it’s about not letting your country rot, which leads to resentment and chasing unicorns like Brexit.
Takes a lot though and can’t say I’d want to live in Grimsby myself, but I grew up in a northeastern seaside town and had a great time.


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Post by Diggers on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 11:40 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Amazing stat on the Beeb:
Only four players have scored a goal in each of the last ten Prem seasons. You'll never get them all so I'll tell you:

Sturridge, Walcott, Ramsey and, now, Henderson.

Wouldn't have guessed that foursome in a month of Sundays.

Very surprised Milner isn’t on that list, usually chips in with a few every season.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 12:10 pm

Brighton fan for the day, Mrs Digs is off to Wembley, her mate works for American Express and got a couple of tickets in the draw. Both my girls are Little Seagulls and been to a few games.
That said I love watching City and wouldn’t mind them winning all 4 trophies. Just watching Bernardo Silva on Football Focus, think he might be my favourite player right now, even if he is stopping Foden getting more game time. Speaks perfect English, obviously!

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 1:30 pm

Not going to Rochdale instead of Wembley?

Big games in Div 1 today. Loot'n could be out of sight by this evening.

PS: Milner missed out last year . . . . . . .

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Post by Diggers on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 5:01 pm

Good day for Pompey and Sunderland. Could come down to what happens when you come to the SOL, Kwini.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 5:17 pm

Diggers wrote:Good day for Pompey and Sunderland. Could come down to what happens when you come to the SOL, Kwini.

Honey. Man.

Was looking really good until the last couple of minutes . . . . . Run

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Post by dynamark on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 8:51 pm

Digs Brighton put up a fight always been a fan of Anthony Knockeart since we had him at LCFC but in the end a Mr Mahrez kept him out of the team we couldn't play both but AK was on the pitch today and RM on the bench.
Grimsby is still pretty grim and I'm pretty sure that Siemens make the serious bits of the turbines but all for getting these towns rolling again.Have you been to Blackpool lately its horrid

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Post by NedB-H on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 10:46 pm

Blackpool is great fun for a weekend away. Couldn’t think of anything worse than living there though, and I say that with family who do.

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Post by Diggers on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 11:21 pm

Happy memories of Blackpool as a kid, couple of interesting stag do visits as well. I think the pleasure beach was once the biggest tourist attraction in the U.K., now it’s the Tate Modern, but that is mainly free I guess.

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Post by westisbest on Sat 06 Apr 2019, 11:29 pm

Went to Blackpool for a stag do in 2012 for 2 nights.
Could have done with a third as it was a trek from Bournemouth. Didn’t get up there till early evening.
Good weekend.
Spent a good bit of the Saturday in Blackburn watching Villa.

Went another time to Blackpool with the wife and son and her brother and family. Much different kind of trip, but enjoyable all the same. Apart from Blackpool tower, not a fan of heights.

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Post by dynamark on Sun 07 Apr 2019, 8:12 am

My view is probably a bit skewed as I had to be there a lot for work out of season.We did a lot of work on the peirs,tower bars and arcades.Its grim in winter and it does take an awful lot of cash to maintain buildings in that environment.The lads loved it though they could get bed,meals and a belly full of ale for about £15 a day.Some of those concessions and stalls rent for eye watering sums.There was a kiosk halfway down north peir(I think the fortune teller)and her rent was £25k a year 20 years ago.Talk about fortune !

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Post by Diggers on Sun 07 Apr 2019, 9:47 am

It’s certainly very different to Brighton which is buzzing and has a great shopping and cafe culture to go with the tourism. In theory commuter belt distance to London, having done that for 3 years the reality was a nightmare thanks to Southern Rail. A lot of commuters I know work from home now or have even relocated businesses to Brighton.Chalk and cheese with Blackpool.

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Post by dynamark on Sun 07 Apr 2019, 10:46 am

Yep essentially a lot more money in Brighton than Blackpool.Places a bit further out like Margate,Ramsgate have struggled recent years but there are signs of life.My solicitor moved down to Brighton for the fresh sea air. due to his sons poor health
Inland towns have the same sort of issues I'm thinking Corby,Mansfield,Worksop awful town centre but a lot going on the outskirts.

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Post by Diggers on Sun 07 Apr 2019, 11:29 am

Redcar, my home town as a kid, is another one. Massive heavy industry with steel and chemical works, great apprenticeship schemes. Along comes Thatcher and that’s the beginning of the end. I realise the unions didn’t help and I realise you have to be globally competitive.
What I dont think happens when government decides not to subsidise or support regional industry, is the long term costs for these areas. More people on benefits, less money for support industries and service businesses, massive implications in all areas. The creation of an environment which benefits nobody.
Obviously, very hard choices to make but you do need to look at the bigger picture, how we end up in these situations in the first place.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 07 Apr 2019, 11:51 am

What you also have with migration of people is migration of electoral equity, with concentration of people/voters/MP's (or, here, Congressmen).
Wasn't it John Major who looked around his Cabinet table and realised all members there were all from constituencies no more than 100 miles north of London? Who then vote/legislate for their own, probably unrepresentative interests. Thatcher must be rolling around in her grave, gleefully.
How apparent that is in the UK I can't say, but you can clearly see that in the US. And getting worse.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 8:12 am

NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:You should borrow to generate revenue through investment. That’s what a bank looks for, what they would want alongside that is done firm of mid-long term business plan (I’ve been there on that one).
This is where govt hits a stumbling block, can’t guarantee anything for more than 5 years.
Turning the north into a powerhouse could have been an example of borrowing to regenerate, but the Tories were only willing to spend £7.35...Then there’s HS2, I think that was a Blair initiative, carried forward by the Conservatives. The one big investment plan they agree on is one the rest of the country thinks is pointless!

More flannel. What does "turning the North into a powerhouse" even mean? The only way you can get companies to invest in rubbish areas is to give them incentives such as tax breaks, then the likes of you turn around and hound them out for not paying their fair share of tax.

What do you think the North of England should specialise in?

Northern Powerhouse is/was a Tory policy. Not mine.

It doesn't matter whose idea it was. You reiterated it but didn't explain (just like the  magic Labour 500bn) how it would be achieved. You'd be a good politician Diggers, because like them you don't back it up with any reasoning.
What is a Northern Powerhouse, why would it be a good thing, and more importantly, how would you achieve it.


Mac, plenty posts above show why excessive government borrowing isn't a good thing.
Surprised no one had a bite at this one.

“Northern Powerhouse” is a stupid name, of course it is, because like most names politicians have come up with in ththeir last twenty years it doesn’t actually mean anything beyond being flashy and catchy. My pet hate is Governments appointing head civil servants for particular issues and calling them “tsars”, as if 19th century Russian emperors have anything to do with food bank usage or bullying in schools.

But get beyond the silly name and Northern Powerhouse is clearly borne or good intentions. There’s a massive problem within the UK right now, and particularly England, where the economy has become overly Londoncentric. Which is a problem in the Southeast, where housing is becoming ridiculously expensive and whole areas are being socially cleansed as poor people are shipped out to social housing miles away. And a problem outside the Southeast where employment prospects are down. It’s patently obvious that London is taking up a disproportionate amount of the national economic activity right now and it needs geographically balancing back out.

Name any country in the world where wealth, industry, investment, wealth etc isn't skewed around a small number of regions or particular cities. Paris, London, New York, Oslo, Moscow, Sydney Copenhagen, Munich, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Rome, Zurich, Madrid etc etc etc. Are they after their own equivalent of the "Northern Powerhouse"? I don't think so.
You’re not very good at this are you? I’ll give you Oslo and Stockholm, maybe Moscow, but the issue isn’t as serious there because they’ve not historically had a population spread across the rest of the country like the UK does, as their countries are mostly frozen wastelands. Most of the rest of your answers are countries where the economy is much more spread (Rotterdam and The Hague, Barcelona and Valencia, Melbourne, Perth and Brisbane, LA, Marseille and so on) or more hilariously are patently not even the economic centres of the country (Turin, Geneva, the Ruhr). You’re making my point for me that nations’ economic activity needs to be spread across the main population centres.

A lot of Britain's population and economics are spread across the country like those countries you mention too. The way you talk is as if 100% of economy is generated in London.

Probably the only country I can think for which you can make a good argument for a decent spread of industries would be Germany, Cities like Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Cologne, Frankfurt, Ingolstadt spread things around a bit,  much like Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Birmingham do in the UK, but more so. Germany is also seriously dragged down by the old East Germany which is heavily subsidised much like our Sheffield's and other dead cities similar to how we are with Wales and Northern Ireland.


It's also pretty ignorant to say that Norway, Sweden and Russia are mostly frozen wastelands. You've clearly never been, they have other important cities like Stavanger, Bergen , Gothenburg, St Petersburg like all the other countries they're centered on pretty much one main city and are for the main no more frozen than the UK is. You do also realise that the Hague, Rotterdam and Amsterdam all lie within 60km by road right.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 8:21 am

McLaren wrote:Super

Your example of Sydney couldn't be worse.  Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth are all thriving economies and Canberra is the capital city. (posted simultaneously with Flyweight)

And what were you thinking with New York? LA, San Fran and silicone valley, chicago, Boston/new england, washington etc

Can we add geography and world knowledge to football, politics and economics in the list of things you try but fail to know anything about?

What has the Capital City got to do with it? Canberra isn't a very important city in Australia.

Whilst New York is by far the most important city in America, with the rest being the US equivalent of Manchester and Birmingham. The point is that every country pretty much has one city where most wealth is generated and that the UK is no more unequal in that regard than dozens of other western, developed countries.



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Post by super_realist on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 8:31 am

Diggers wrote:
Because it makes you sound kind of credible, whilst still pretty great, it’s pretty simple psychology and very, very common amongst social media fantasists, like yourself.
And you rarely give any sound argument based on policy. You just say utter rubbish, such as comparing Labour policy to a Venezuelan model, which is utterly absurd on any level.  Wrap that up with a smattering of bigotry and that’s about it.


The saddest thing Diggers is that you have such a low opinion of yourself and your own ability that you think that being off 1 and running a marathon in 3 hours is in any way remarkable, a fantastic claim or some sort of tall tale. Just because you have given up on your life way too early, doesn't mean people can't attain decent standards even in their 40's.

The most surprising thing about golf is that people accept being so bad at it. There's no other sport where being a 16 handicapper (the average handicap) would be acceptable to the participants in general, even a Sunday League footballer is better than that. Yet for some reason, you seem to think it isn't credible to be a 1 handicapper in your 40's. How low are your standards? There's a guy at St.Andrews who is 74, plays off 2. Do you think he's a liar too? How about another guy I know, turned pro off +3, still had a worse handicap THAN HIS DAD. At every club in the land there's people in their 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's who play off 1,2, Scratch, better etc.
How about James Cracknell? Just won the boat race at 46, was that just a Daily Mail story? How about Eddie Izzard running a marathon every day for a month? Another tall tale?


Just because you are terrible at sport, doesn't mean that doesn't mean that other people can't have higher levels and continue to maintain them.
The human body and mind is an amazing thing, and my particular level of achievement in sport is NOTHING compared to what can be done, shame you've given up on being decent at anything but explains a lot about how bitter you are about virtually everything.

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Post by McLaren on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 10:28 am

Super

When you say "I've been playing twice a week for the last 15 years, what would you expect me to play off?" and "The most surprising thing about golf is that people accept being so bad at it" you are either ignorant or being disingenuous.

You know full well that getting to very low single figures will be both time consuming and difficult for most people. There is the odd lucky player who will have enough natural talent to get to that level with little practice or input from a coach but for everyone else you are looking at intense coaching, a lot of practice and a decent level of inherent talent.

Many people on here (I think Jas, Navy, bluecover my fit the bill) have talked about playing a lot for a long time with a fair bit of coaching and none of them are off scratch, but by the sounds of it they are pretty good.  Are you saying players like them are just pish or not trying hard enough?

Will we have to add golf to the list of sports you have a poor grasp of reality on?
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Post by dynamark on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 12:27 pm

That s why we have a handicap system folks or super would be playing with his few low handicap members.
Super Id be amazed if 16 is an average id have thought much higher .Golf isn't easy to the point that most even reasonably fit folk dont even try.But it s a test every round and achievement to reach a good level and credit due.
Digs interested in your post support is fine(enterprise areas?) but subsidy is a definite no.the unions as you alluded were dreadful back in the day I'm thinking scargill and robbo.Working in the light of a hurricane lamp because the power was off -truth. But you always seem to come back to the needing help and intervention from the govt .I know I am the dead opposite look after yourself and your family.Who really wanted to work down the mines we have to accept we have moved on with some pain but we have.

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Post by NedB-H on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 1:38 pm

super_realist wrote:
NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:You should borrow to generate revenue through investment. That’s what a bank looks for, what they would want alongside that is done firm of mid-long term business plan (I’ve been there on that one).
This is where govt hits a stumbling block, can’t guarantee anything for more than 5 years.
Turning the north into a powerhouse could have been an example of borrowing to regenerate, but the Tories were only willing to spend £7.35...Then there’s HS2, I think that was a Blair initiative, carried forward by the Conservatives. The one big investment plan they agree on is one the rest of the country thinks is pointless!

More flannel. What does "turning the North into a powerhouse" even mean? The only way you can get companies to invest in rubbish areas is to give them incentives such as tax breaks, then the likes of you turn around and hound them out for not paying their fair share of tax.

What do you think the North of England should specialise in?

Northern Powerhouse is/was a Tory policy. Not mine.

It doesn't matter whose idea it was. You reiterated it but didn't explain (just like the  magic Labour 500bn) how it would be achieved. You'd be a good politician Diggers, because like them you don't back it up with any reasoning.
What is a Northern Powerhouse, why would it be a good thing, and more importantly, how would you achieve it.


Mac, plenty posts above show why excessive government borrowing isn't a good thing.
Surprised no one had a bite at this one.

“Northern Powerhouse” is a stupid name, of course it is, because like most names politicians have come up with in ththeir last twenty years it doesn’t actually mean anything beyond being flashy and catchy. My pet hate is Governments appointing head civil servants for particular issues and calling them “tsars”, as if 19th century Russian emperors have anything to do with food bank usage or bullying in schools.

But get beyond the silly name and Northern Powerhouse is clearly borne or good intentions. There’s a massive problem within the UK right now, and particularly England, where the economy has become overly Londoncentric. Which is a problem in the Southeast, where housing is becoming ridiculously expensive and whole areas are being socially cleansed as poor people are shipped out to social housing miles away. And a problem outside the Southeast where employment prospects are down. It’s patently obvious that London is taking up a disproportionate amount of the national economic activity right now and it needs geographically balancing back out.

Name any country in the world where wealth, industry, investment, wealth etc isn't skewed around a small number of regions or particular cities. Paris, London, New York, Oslo, Moscow, Sydney Copenhagen, Munich, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Rome, Zurich, Madrid etc etc etc. Are they after their own equivalent of the "Northern Powerhouse"? I don't think so.
You’re not very good at this are you? I’ll give you Oslo and Stockholm, maybe Moscow, but the issue isn’t as serious there because they’ve not historically had a population spread across the rest of the country like the UK does, as their countries are mostly frozen wastelands. Most of the rest of your answers are countries where the economy is much more spread (Rotterdam and The Hague, Barcelona and Valencia, Melbourne, Perth and Brisbane, LA, Marseille and so on) or more hilariously are patently not even the economic centres of the country (Turin, Geneva, the Ruhr). You’re making my point for me that nations’ economic activity needs to be spread across the main population centres.

A lot of Britain's population and economics are spread across the country like those countries you mention too. The way you talk is as if 100% of economy is generated in London.

Probably the only country I can think for which you can make a good argument for a decent  spread of industries would be Germany, Cities like Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Cologne, Frankfurt,  Ingolstadt spread things around a bit,  much like Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Birmingham do in the UK, but more so. Germany is also seriously dragged down by the old East Germany which is heavily subsidised much like our Sheffield's and other dead cities similar to how we are with Wales and Northern Ireland.


It's also pretty ignorant to say that Norway, Sweden and Russia are mostly frozen wastelands. You've clearly never been, they have other important cities like Stavanger, Bergen , Gothenburg, St Petersburg like all the other countries they're centered on pretty much one main city and are for the main no more frozen than the UK is. You do also realise that the Hague, Rotterdam and Amsterdam all lie within 60km by road right.
Geography isn’t your strong point is it. The Dutch cities are close because Holland is a small country. Add in Utrecht and Eindhoven, which are a lot more successful than equivalent British regional cities like Newcastle or Liverpool, and you’ve got most of the country covered. Unlike Russia, Norway or Sweden where the prosperous cities you name are clustered in a small proportion of the overall land area. Although I’m not sure why you mentioned the likes of Stavanger and St Petersburg anyway as the very fact that they’re thriving completely repudiates your original point.
Your first post gave me a list of countries which you claimed as examples where the economy was similarly centralised to a single city as the UK’s is to London. You’ve then replied with explanations of how that isn’t the case for for of your examples (Norway, Sweden, Russia, and Germany). Certainly makes my job easier when you essentially disagree with yourself.
It almost reads as though you’ve accepted defeat on arguing that other countries are as centralised to the UK. So you’ve tried to turn your argument around and say that others countries aren’t, but actually the UK isn’t centralised either after all (even though you agreed with that first time round). But you haven’t actually supplied any evidence to support your theory that the economy isn’t excessively Londoncentric, even though when the point was first raised lots of evidence (house prices, social housing policy, average wages, employment prospects) was produced in support of the theory.

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Post by JAS on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 2:30 pm

McLaren wrote:

Many people on here (I think Jas, Navy, bluecover my fit the bill) have talked about playing a lot for a long time with a fair bit of coaching and none of them are off scratch, but by the sounds of it they are pretty good.  Are you saying players like them are just pish or not trying hard enough?

Pretty much on the verge of erasing myself from that list of pretty good. After a really good winters practice, some early promise in late Feb, my last 3 rounds have gone 90, 88, 84. Genuinely feeling like jacking it in as I’m getting very little enjoyment out of it and it’s making me miserable. I’m supposed to enjoy the game...I’m just not at the moment.

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Post by Diggers on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 3:44 pm

super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
Because it makes you sound kind of credible, whilst still pretty great, it’s pretty simple psychology and very, very common amongst social media fantasists, like yourself.
And you rarely give any sound argument based on policy. You just say utter rubbish, such as comparing Labour policy to a Venezuelan model, which is utterly absurd on any level.  Wrap that up with a smattering of bigotry and that’s about it.


The saddest thing Diggers is that you have such a low opinion of yourself and your own ability that you think that being off 1 and running a marathon in 3 hours is in any way remarkable, a fantastic claim or some sort of tall tale. Just because you have given up on your life way too early, doesn't mean people can't attain decent standards even in their 40's.

The most surprising thing about golf is that people accept being so bad at it. There's no other sport where being a 16 handicapper (the average handicap) would be acceptable to the participants in general, even a Sunday League footballer is better than that.  Yet for some reason, you seem to think it isn't credible to be a 1 handicapper in your 40's. How low are your standards? There's a guy at St.Andrews who is 74, plays off 2. Do you think he's a liar too? How about another guy I know, turned pro off +3, still had a worse handicap THAN HIS DAD. At every club in the land there's people in their 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's who play off 1,2, Scratch, better etc.
How about James Cracknell? Just won the boat race at 46, was that just a Daily Mail story? How about Eddie Izzard running a marathon every day for a month? Another tall tale?


Just because you are terrible at sport, doesn't mean that doesn't mean that other people can't have higher levels and continue to maintain them.
The human body and mind is an amazing thing, and my particular level of achievement in sport is NOTHING compared to what can be done, shame you've given up on being decent at anything but explains a lot about how bitter you are about virtually everything.

I’m sure other people’s bodies and mind are amazing, just not yours. But at least you get to pretend on here.


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Post by Diggers on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 4:02 pm

dynamark wrote:That s why we have a handicap system folks or super would be playing with his few low handicap members.
Super Id be amazed if 16 is an average id have thought much higher .Golf isn't easy to the point that most even reasonably fit folk dont even try.But it s a test every round and achievement to reach a good level and credit due.
Digs interested in your post support is fine(enterprise areas?) but subsidy is a definite no.the unions as you alluded were dreadful back in the day I'm thinking scargill and robbo.Working in the light of a hurricane lamp because the power was off -truth. But you always seem to come back to the needing help and intervention from the govt .I know I am the dead opposite look after yourself and your family.Who really wanted to work down the mines we have to accept we have moved on with some pain but we have.

Lots of industries are subsidised anyway, Dyna. Farming (that’s not just an EU thing by the way, another myth there, we will almost certainly subside more if we do Brexit), green energy, transport, just to name a few. Clearly we were willing to bail out a bank, now it’s profitable we’re going to hand it back!
So govt is always helping, just depends where you choose to help. I’m sure the 4.2 billion so far wasted on Brexit would have helped out a bit.
The unions definitely got out of hand, but no doubt that Thatcher goaded them, she wanted a fight and made some poor judgement calls.

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Post by JAS on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 4:19 pm

Diggers wrote:
dynamark wrote:That s why we have a handicap system folks or super would be playing with his few low handicap members.
Super Id be amazed if 16 is an average id have thought much higher .Golf isn't easy to the point that most even reasonably fit folk dont even try.But it s a test every round and achievement to reach a good level and credit due.
Digs interested in your post support is fine(enterprise areas?) but subsidy is a definite no.the unions as you alluded were dreadful back in the day I'm thinking scargill and robbo.Working in the light of a hurricane lamp because the power was off -truth. But you always seem to come back to the needing help and intervention from the govt .I know I am the dead opposite look after yourself and your family.Who really wanted to work down the mines we have to accept we have moved on with some pain but we have.

Lots of industries are subsidised anyway, Dyna. Farming (that’s not just an EU thing by the way, another myth there, we will almost certainly subside more if we do Brexit), green energy, transport, just to name a few. Clearly we were willing to bail out a bank, now it’s profitable we’re going to hand it back!
So govt is always helping, just depends where you choose to help. I’m sure the 4.2 billion so far wasted on Brexit would have helped out a bit.
The unions definitely got out of hand, but no doubt that Thatcher goaded them, she wanted a fight and made some poor judgement calls.

Whilst I am quite a firm believer in the personally self motivating look after yourself, it’s your own responsibility ethos, The trouble is when neoliberal governments espouse it with the “stand on your own 2 feet” mantra what they’re actually saying is “we don’t give a Poopie about anyone or anything, we want to keep tax rates as low as possible to help the rich” thus abdicating any responsibility for a coherent industrial politics cy and socially cohesive society.

I’d also say that bosses were dreadful back in the day, there are ALWAYS 3 sides to a dispute (the truth being one of them). So the bosses in the 70s were equally responsible. Of course when Thatcher came in all debate went out the window, unions had to be crushed at the altar of free market capitalism so our unions and therefore our workers bargaining power were pretty much destroyed. Elsewhere other more rational/less devisive governments worked with their unions. Germany probably has the strongest unions in Europe yet look at German manufacturing output.
The neoliberal agenda was to weaken workers so they could be ridden roughshod over. Woohoo for free market Capitalism until the banks got so greedy they shat the bed and needed a good dose of state Socialism to save them. How two faced can free market capitalists get???


Last edited by JAS on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added a bit)

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Post by Diggers on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 4:19 pm

Currently having 3 days in Broadstairs, which is basically Thanet. I’m deep in UKIP heartland, very disturbing!

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Post by beninho on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 7:03 pm

super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
Because it makes you sound kind of credible, whilst still pretty great, it’s pretty simple psychology and very, very common amongst social media fantasists, like yourself.
And you rarely give any sound argument based on policy. You just say utter rubbish, such as comparing Labour policy to a Venezuelan model, which is utterly absurd on any level.  Wrap that up with a smattering of bigotry and that’s about it.


The saddest thing Diggers is that you have such a low opinion of yourself and your own ability that you think that being off 1 and running a marathon in 3 hours is in any way remarkable, a fantastic claim or some sort of tall tale. Just because you have given up on your life way too early, doesn't mean people can't attain decent standards even in their 40's.

The most surprising thing about golf is that people accept being so bad at it. There's no other sport where being a 16 handicapper (the average handicap) would be acceptable to the participants in general, even a Sunday League footballer is better than that.  Yet for some reason, you seem to think it isn't credible to be a 1 handicapper in your 40's. How low are your standards? There's a guy at St.Andrews who is 74, plays off 2. Do you think he's a liar too? How about another guy I know, turned pro off +3, still had a worse handicap THAN HIS DAD. At every club in the land there's people in their 40's, 50's, 60's and 70's who play off 1,2, Scratch, better etc.
How about James Cracknell? Just won the boat race at 46, was that just a Daily Mail story? How about Eddie Izzard running a marathon every day for a month? Another tall tale?


Just because you are terrible at sport, doesn't mean that doesn't mean that other people can't have higher levels and continue to maintain them.
The human body and mind is an amazing thing, and my particular level of achievement in sport is NOTHING compared to what can be done, shame you've given up on being decent at anything but explains a lot about how bitter you are about virtually everything.

I fricking love this quote. Its bloody hilarious. Well done sir, well done.

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Post by dynamark on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 10:00 pm

Digs Broadstairs was I think Edward Heath territory.Pre thatcher but similar mindset.
Don't speak to any of the locals and youll be ok.
Farmers drive me mad always moaning about something EU,drought,rain,ramblers, foot and mouth ,set aside where you paid to not produce anything.Turm em all into golf courses oh that wont work.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 8:04 am

McLaren wrote:Super

When you say "I've been playing twice a week for the last 15 years, what would you expect me to play off?" and "The most surprising thing about golf is that people accept being so bad at it" you are either ignorant or being disingenuous.

You know full well that getting to very low single figures will be both time consuming and difficult for most people. There is the odd lucky player who will have enough natural talent to get to that level with little practice or input from a coach but for everyone else you are looking at intense coaching, a lot of practice and a decent level of inherent talent.

Many people on here (I think Jas, Navy, bluecover my fit the bill) have talked about playing a lot for a long time with a fair bit of coaching and none of them are off scratch, but by the sounds of it they are pretty good.  Are you saying players like them are just pish or not trying hard enough?

Will we have to add golf to the list of sports you have a poor grasp of reality on?

Not at all Mac. I reckon I could save a 16 handicapper 6 shots a round by simply employing better course management and giving some tips on the short game. 2/3rds of the golf game is within 150 yards. This is not something that should exclude anyone in regards to strength.
Unless you have a physical or mental condition (i.e. truly appalling hand-eye coordination) there's no reason why any relatively healthy sub 65 year old shouldn't be a single figure player.
I said that 16 was a handicap which people should be ashamed off if you genuinely want to be lower. There's no real excuse.

I grew up in St.Andrews, started playing golf at about 8, gave up around 13 and picked it up again in my 20's and have been playing a lot ever since. Why wouldn't you expect me to be low? That's the point. Golf can technically be a fairly difficult game to grasp, but I've always said I've had lots of lessons and practice a lot (during the summer) at least. Why wouldn't I expect to be a low handicap golfer? Therefore I was referring to myself as what people should "expect" of me in regards to golf ability. I wasn't talking about other people. After all, some might not live near a golf course, might work away, might have families, but the simple fact is that if you've got the time, facilities, access to lessons, a focussed mind and practice in the right way as well as being able to take your progress to the golf course you really should be a Cat 1 golfer. It's a hard game, but people are too frightened of that element.

Another element is people not addressing their weaknesses. I've never been a massively long driver, I probably average 240-245 carry , rolling out to 265, but put in the effort into learning a better short game. How many people do you see down a range just hitting driver after driver? People rarely focus on the actual scoring part of the game.
There are short cuts, but people are either too lazy, or too stupid to see where they can gain shots.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 8:06 am

Diggers wrote:Currently having 3 days in Broadmoor, which is basically Thanet. I’m deep in UKIP heartland, very disturbing!

Fixed it for you Run

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Post by super_realist on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 8:14 am

NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
NedB-H wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:
super_realist wrote:
Diggers wrote:You should borrow to generate revenue through investment. That’s what a bank looks for, what they would want alongside that is done firm of mid-long term business plan (I’ve been there on that one).
This is where govt hits a stumbling block, can’t guarantee anything for more than 5 years.
Turning the north into a powerhouse could have been an example of borrowing to regenerate, but the Tories were only willing to spend £7.35...Then there’s HS2, I think that was a Blair initiative, carried forward by the Conservatives. The one big investment plan they agree on is one the rest of the country thinks is pointless!

More flannel. What does "turning the North into a powerhouse" even mean? The only way you can get companies to invest in rubbish areas is to give them incentives such as tax breaks, then the likes of you turn around and hound them out for not paying their fair share of tax.

What do you think the North of England should specialise in?

Northern Powerhouse is/was a Tory policy. Not mine.

It doesn't matter whose idea it was. You reiterated it but didn't explain (just like the  magic Labour 500bn) how it would be achieved. You'd be a good politician Diggers, because like them you don't back it up with any reasoning.
What is a Northern Powerhouse, why would it be a good thing, and more importantly, how would you achieve it.


Mac, plenty posts above show why excessive government borrowing isn't a good thing.
Surprised no one had a bite at this one.

“Northern Powerhouse” is a stupid name, of course it is, because like most names politicians have come up with in ththeir last twenty years it doesn’t actually mean anything beyond being flashy and catchy. My pet hate is Governments appointing head civil servants for particular issues and calling them “tsars”, as if 19th century Russian emperors have anything to do with food bank usage or bullying in schools.

But get beyond the silly name and Northern Powerhouse is clearly borne or good intentions. There’s a massive problem within the UK right now, and particularly England, where the economy has become overly Londoncentric. Which is a problem in the Southeast, where housing is becoming ridiculously expensive and whole areas are being socially cleansed as poor people are shipped out to social housing miles away. And a problem outside the Southeast where employment prospects are down. It’s patently obvious that London is taking up a disproportionate amount of the national economic activity right now and it needs geographically balancing back out.

Name any country in the world where wealth, industry, investment, wealth etc isn't skewed around a small number of regions or particular cities. Paris, London, New York, Oslo, Moscow, Sydney Copenhagen, Munich, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Rome, Zurich, Madrid etc etc etc. Are they after their own equivalent of the "Northern Powerhouse"? I don't think so.
You’re not very good at this are you? I’ll give you Oslo and Stockholm, maybe Moscow, but the issue isn’t as serious there because they’ve not historically had a population spread across the rest of the country like the UK does, as their countries are mostly frozen wastelands. Most of the rest of your answers are countries where the economy is much more spread (Rotterdam and The Hague, Barcelona and Valencia, Melbourne, Perth and Brisbane, LA, Marseille and so on) or more hilariously are patently not even the economic centres of the country (Turin, Geneva, the Ruhr). You’re making my point for me that nations’ economic activity needs to be spread across the main population centres.

A lot of Britain's population and economics are spread across the country like those countries you mention too. The way you talk is as if 100% of economy is generated in London.

Probably the only country I can think for which you can make a good argument for a decent  spread of industries would be Germany, Cities like Munich, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Cologne, Frankfurt,  Ingolstadt spread things around a bit,  much like Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Birmingham do in the UK, but more so. Germany is also seriously dragged down by the old East Germany which is heavily subsidised much like our Sheffield's and other dead cities similar to how we are with Wales and Northern Ireland.


It's also pretty ignorant to say that Norway, Sweden and Russia are mostly frozen wastelands. You've clearly never been, they have other important cities like Stavanger, Bergen , Gothenburg, St Petersburg like all the other countries they're centered on pretty much one main city and are for the main no more frozen than the UK is. You do also realise that the Hague, Rotterdam and Amsterdam all lie within 60km by road right.
Geography isn’t your strong point is it. The Dutch cities are close because Holland is a small country. Add in Utrecht and Eindhoven, which are a lot more successful than equivalent British regional cities like Newcastle or Liverpool, and you’ve got most of the country covered. Unlike Russia, Norway or Sweden where the prosperous cities you name are clustered in a small proportion of the overall land area. Although I’m not sure why you mentioned the likes of Stavanger and St Petersburg anyway as the very fact that they’re thriving completely repudiates your original point.
Your first post gave me a list of countries which you claimed as examples where the economy was similarly centralised to a single city as the UK’s is to London. You’ve then replied with explanations of how that isn’t the case for for of your examples (Norway, Sweden, Russia, and Germany). Certainly makes my job easier when you essentially disagree with yourself.
It almost reads as though you’ve accepted defeat on arguing that other countries are as centralised to the UK. So you’ve tried to turn your argument around and say that others countries aren’t, but actually the UK isn’t centralised either after all (even though you agreed with that first time round). But you haven’t actually supplied any evidence to support your theory that the economy isn’t excessively Londoncentric, even though when the point was first raised lots of evidence (house prices, social housing policy, average wages, employment prospects) was produced in support of the theory.

The point of the matter is that virtually every country has a dominant city which contributes much of the finance to those countries. Britain is no different to many in that regard
I didn't claim the UK wasn't Londoncentric, I said that virtually every country runs in the same way, with a dominant city and other ones which are less significant. What's the problem with London being the centre for so many industries?

The insinuation was that the UK only gains financial benefit from London and that all other cities simply don't matter. That couldn't be further from the truth, so while Oslo is the main Norwegian example, places like Tromso and Stavanger act very much like the cities of Manchester and Birmingham do for the UK.

Just so you know, the UK is not all that developed either, only something like 6-8% of the land mass is built on, so the overall land mass in the UK is also, like Norway, pretty empty.

How do you know that Utrecht and Eindhoven are more successful than Newcastle or Liverpool? Where have you extracted that from? You can't accuse me of not providing evidence and then pull something like that out of your arse.

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Post by dynamark on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 12:12 pm

I read today that US preparing a range of tariffs against EU produce to effectively retaliate re our subsidy of aircraft production(airbus?).This is what happens when you subsidise as opposed to a free market approach.Global trade has some very interesting effects.
Super I have helped a few folk with their golf over the years and it amazes me how little effort and concentration they have put into the short game,the business end ,and how much goes into crashing the ball as far as possible into the cabbage.I used to practice getting down in 2 from fringes/off the green and people said why don't you practice your putting.The answer being that I can always 2 putt and my level I am not going to surround the flag so the scoring depended on the 20 /25 yard range.

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Post by I'm never wrong on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 2:32 pm

Wonder if the Debenhams falling into the hands of the lenders, will have a knock on effect with Newcastle? Ashley reportedly loses £150 million as he was a shareholder rather than a lender.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 3:40 pm

super_realist wrote:

The point of the matter is that virtually every country has a dominant city which contributes much of the finance to those countries. Britain is no different to many in that regard
I didn't claim the UK wasn't Londoncentric, I said that virtually every country runs in the same way, with a dominant city and other ones which are less significant. What's the problem with London being the centre for so many industries?

It is trivial to point out that every country has a city that is the strongest economically.  What is of more interest is the distribution of wealth across all cities in a country.  In some of the countries you brought up this distribution is much more even than in the UK.
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Post by dynamark on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:01 pm

Ashley is nearly down to his last billion.
He bought up shares in Debenhams at much higher prices than they were before suspended today it was a risk that he took then and not quite worked ,he will be a bit cross no doubt.
Not everyones cup of tea but you have to give the guy a bit of credit.
I would confirm I do not shop at sports direct !

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Post by super_realist on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 7:40 am

McLaren wrote:
super_realist wrote:

The point of the matter is that virtually every country has a dominant city which contributes much of the finance to those countries. Britain is no different to many in that regard
I didn't claim the UK wasn't Londoncentric, I said that virtually every country runs in the same way, with a dominant city and other ones which are less significant. What's the problem with London being the centre for so many industries?

It is trivial to point out that every country has a city that is the strongest economically.  What is of more interest is the distribution of wealth across all cities in a country.  In some of the countries you brought up this distribution is much more even than in the UK.

Got any evidence for that Mac, or like you always do, just pulling it out of your arse? The point that is being made is that virtually every country has a dominant city and that every country has a city which is richer and contributes more to the economy than the others, often combined  Don't you think Copenhagen is more important than Esbjerg or Billund? Of course it is, how about Paris being more important than Marseille or Nice.  What you have to demonstrate is that non London cites in the UK are actually suffering BECAUSE of London, and you haven't done that.

Remember, you're the one who thinks there's a place called Silicone Valley, all that tells me is that you probably watch too much porn. Why would anyone take any notice of what you say?

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Post by JAS on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 9:23 am

dynamark wrote:Ashley is nearly down to his last billion.
He bought up shares in Debenhams at much higher prices than they were before suspended today it was a risk that he took then and not quite worked ,he will be a bit cross no doubt.
Not everyones cup of tea but you have to give the guy a bit of credit.
I would confirm I do not shop at sports direct !

I wouldn’t give him any credit at all, he’s a shark and a zero hours contract champion. Considering the issues he caused trying to tie up the retail side at Rangers for the benefit of himself and to the detriment of the Club and his appetite for dragging the Club to the Courts to get his way I for one am not sorry at all to see his sticky fingers get burnt to to tune of £130m with Debs going into admin.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 11:45 am

Bit harsh JAS on shareholders pension funds staff who have to deal with the pre pack admin.
I did say hes not everyones cup of tea and that's for sure but the guy has been very successful and employs thousands of people through his own efforts primarily.
I rather have a Mike Ashley than a Jeremy Corbyn running the shop.
This is the real world not the idealogical socialist utopia
Picked up a paper this morning in the barbers where they quoted what many of our politicians of all sides said after the referendum and what they are saying now.Talk about U turn its incredible.

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Post by JAS on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 12:27 pm

dynamark wrote:Bit harsh JAS on shareholders pension funds staff who have to deal with the pre pack admin.
I did say hes not everyones cup of tea and that's for sure but the guy has been very successful and employs thousands of people through his own efforts primarily.
I rather have a Mike Ashley than a  Jeremy Corbyn running the shop.
This is the real world not the idealogical socialist utopia
Picked up a paper this morning in the barbers where they quoted what many of our politicians of all sides  said after the referendum and what they are saying now.Talk about U turn its incredible.

Oh don’t get me wrong, it’s Ashley personally I feel no empathy for. I personally think he’s a complete c-bomb. Yes it’s a shame that the side effects of a company going into administration affect direct employment and lots of things beyond in the supply chain and in Pensions funds that have held shares. But that is the way of the world, most savvy fund managers will have exited Debenhams from their portfolios many moons ago.

I’m also not convinced on his crusade to save the High Street. It’s not a Debenhams specific problem (although their management have been less than effective) but High Street retail in general is being ravaged by online.

People in positions of power MUST have seen this coming or have been advised of the rise in online and the effects it would likely have on the High Street and they’ve done nothing, absolutely hee haw but that is the natural way of things in the free market. Amazon and the like are raking in billions whilst the Debenhams, the john Lewis’s And other High Street names go to the wall. Councils so cash starved by austerity can’t give the High Street retailers a bit of a break rate wise. All we can do is stand by and watch our High Streets become a cluster of charity shops, penny arcades, coffee shops and pawnbrokers. Whilst the owners of Amazon and the like accumulate piles of wealth beyond imagination. Whilst some of these new super rich may fritter away the fringes of their wealth on charitable giving (mainly just to assuage their own conscience) others may not. I’ve never really been a fan of excessive taxation of the super rich but actually I’m now warming to the idea.




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Post by Diggers on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 12:28 pm

If Ashley is the real world, I don’t want to live here anymore. Even other businesses actively seek not to be involved with him, his workers rights record is nothing short of disgraceful.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 2:55 pm

Apropos of nothing, was listening to Disturbed's most recent album last night and thought the sentiment behind their track 'Saviour of Nothing' is something worth reflecting on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8DW-3xbjjw&t=1584s

Draiman's take on it:

David Draiman wrote:People love pretending that they know everything about everything, don’t they. We live in a world full of people that are so eager to marry themselves to a cause, one that they believe in so strongly, that they lose sight of it. You preach for tolerance so much that you become intolerant. You’re part of one side or the other, and there’s not grey area in between. And that’s absolute bullsh!t. I’m a big believer in the old Wiccan rede of, ‘Do what you will and harm ye none’. And I think that as long as whatever somebody else is doing in their respective lives doesn’t hurt me or the ones that I love, and doesn’t hurt an innocent, then I’m not one to judge. People are addicted to being offended and angry, and it’s a sickness. Something that the wonderful world of social media is helping to perpetuate, on a level that has never been seen before in the history of humankind. It’s nuts.

As the man himself might say: peace.
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Post by JAS on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 4:13 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Apropos of nothing, was listening to Disturbed's most recent album last night and thought the sentiment behind their track 'Saviour of Nothing' is something worth reflecting on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8DW-3xbjjw&t=1584s

Draiman's take on it:

David Draiman wrote:People love pretending that they know everything about everything, don’t they. We live in a world full of people that are so eager to marry themselves to a cause, one that they believe in so strongly, that they lose sight of it. You preach for tolerance so much that you become intolerant. You’re part of one side or the other, and there’s not grey area in between. And that’s absolute bullsh!t. I’m a big believer in the old Wiccan rede of, ‘Do what you will and harm ye none’. And I think that as long as whatever somebody else is doing in their respective lives doesn’t hurt me or the ones that I love, and doesn’t hurt an innocent, then I’m not one to judge. People are addicted to being offended and angry, and it’s a sickness. Something that the wonderful world of social media is helping to perpetuate, on a level that has never been seen before in the history of humankind. It’s nuts.

As the man himself might say: peace.

Worth reflecting on and yes he is so so right about Social Media, perpetuated is a bit understated, social media has sent being offended and angry stratospheric. I don’t really do being offended myself but hell yes I do recognise that I’m prone to much spleen venting anger when I observe things that I don’t think are right or fair. Yes it’s anger and I accept it can be taken the wrong way but sometimes it’s good to dump a heap of Poopie off your chest. The only thing with Draiman’s statement (or rather with the old Wiccan) is that unfortunately there are many people in the world that would wilfully cause harm to others and that is what gives birth to a lot of anger.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 5:50 pm

Digs Jas I'm not sure how councils/people in power are going to save your high street.
This started a long time ago with out of town shopping centres and correct it is the free market.
There is no reason at all for me to go into the centre of Leicester to visit a shop in fact it must be close on 10 years since that happened.The last time I had a walk around the city was recently when I was in court representing the company and half way in my testimony the judge called lunch meaning I had to disappear for a hour and speak to no one!!!
Bars cafes and eating which have done a good job along with some specialist retail yes but basic shops no.Lack of parking and charging workplaces for staff parking as they are doing in Nottingham wont help matters.Tripping over druggies sleeping in doorways.Ashley seems to be confident he can save(some of) these stores but its a tough ask.

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Post by Diggers on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 6:05 pm

Dyna, you’ve partly answered your own question. They can help by reducing parking costs, by applying sensible rating, by taxing companies like Starbucks as they would tax a UK independent store, by doing more to solve the homeless problem.
There is always much that can be done, whether people want to do it is another matter.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 8:49 pm

Fair point Digs .In my village we have a number of shops post office(which has taken the place of the bank)shoe repair couple of hairdressers,optician,florist,corner shop so what do the local authourity do they start charging 50p to park and put a traffic warden who must be close relative of Ivan the terrible.Absolute stupidty towns and cities can change but no point swimming against the tide.We can all avoid Starbucks which I agree have been taking the mick for years.
Masters tomorrow start of he season - luvly

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Post by super_realist on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 7:52 am

Diggers wrote:If Ashley is the real world, I don’t want to live here anymore. Even other businesses actively seek not to be involved with him, his workers rights record is nothing short of disgraceful.

He's not alone there Diggers, even the holier than thou Church of England have had their fingers burned on that particular issue with not paying people properly and having investments in companies that they actively preach against, but then I'd expect that from them.

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Post by dynamark on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 8:26 am

TV BBC a couple of nights ago(sunday?) we had the excellent Prof Brian Cox on one channel with a super programme about the origins of everything 'everything we are was created in the stars' and then you turn over and songs of praise and we have church full folk enthusiastically praising the creator.Probably put them on at the same time so the church folk couldn't watch the other programme.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 8:38 am

Diggers wrote:Grimsby is a reasonable model for regeneration. Tricky to get to but has gone for wind energy in a big way, with some level of government investment to encourage people to stay, local workers/students  are being trained through the companies so the better jobs aren’t just going to workers moving into the area. It’s had some housing investment and port regeneration to make it a bit more appealing.
The turbines themselves aren’t made locally, but many firms have sprung up producing parts. Obviously tax breaks for these kind of start ups and potentially green industries is a good thing. Note, smart and fair taxation, not just simply high or low as Super views it.
If an area can find some form of niche industry they can make progress, it’s not about rivalling the South East, it’s about not letting your country rot, which leads to resentment and chasing unicorns like Brexit.
Takes a lot though and can’t say I’d want to live in Grimsby myself, but I grew up in a northeastern seaside town and had a great time.

Diggers, Wind companies like Vattenfall and Orsted set up in places where they can harness the most energy from the wind, not to benefit places like Grimbsy.
They also don't employ very many people once they are up and running, at least not locally.

Grimbsy are merely fortunate to be located as they are, they didn't just "decide" to go for a wind farm, they are in an area where it was suitable. Grimbsy council or whatever doesn't even have rights over the sea that surrounds them, that's a central government issue.


Last edited by super_realist on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Be_the_ball on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 8:45 am

Dyna, there are people running your country that think gay people are an abomination and can be "cured", and that the world is 6 thousand years old and humans roamed the planet with dinosaurs.

Some people advocate that creationism should be thought in schools as an alternative to the"theory" of evolution.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2134162-five-things-you-need-to-know-about-dup-politicians-and-science/

I feel sorry for young people in NI.

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 9:11 am

dynamark wrote:TV BBC a couple of nights ago(sunday?) we had the excellent Prof Brian Cox on one channel with a super programme about the origins of everything 'everything  we are was created in the stars' and then you turn over and songs of praise and we have church full folk enthusiastically praising the creator.Probably put them on at the same time so the church folk couldn't watch the other programme.

Super didn't know which one to watch to be pi55ed off about first. Do I hate people who like God more than I hate Brian "not that Alice woman" Cox? Gaaaahk. Very Happy

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