England 6N's Postmortem & Look Ahead

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 18 Mar 2019, 10:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pinched this idea from the Scotland thread as it's so nicely done.

6 Nations results

Ire 20-32 Eng  clap
Eng 44-8 Fra  clap
Wales 21-13 Eng  raspberry
Eng 57-14 Italy  clap
Eng 38-38 Sco    Headscratch Hug

World Cup Warmups

England v Wales
Twickenham Stadium, London
Sunday 11th August 2019
Kick Off: 2:00pm


Wales v England
Principality Stadium, Cardiff
Saturday 17th August 2019
Kick Off: TBC


England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 24th August 2019
Kick Off: 3:00pm


England v Italy
St James' Park, Newcastle
Friday 6th September 2019
Kick Off: 7:45pm

World Cup Fixtures

England v Tonga
Sapporo Dome, Sapporo
Sunday 22nd September 2019
Kick Off: 11:15am

England v USA
Kobe Misaki Stadium, Kobe
Thursday 26th September 2019
Kick Off: 11:45am

England v Argentina
Tokyo Stadium, Tokyo
Saturday 5th October 2019
Kick Off: 9:00am

England v France
International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
Saturday 12th October 2019
Kick Off: 9:15am

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 4:48 am

I'm sure he'll get picked any minute now...


Honestly though Jones has shown that it doesn't matter how Cips plays. He's not getting picked. For what ever reason Jones doesn't rate him, he's not going to get another cap under EJ's watch and that's that unfortunately.

Still there's always Smith at Quins for the future.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 8:22 am

EnglishReign wrote:So, Cips looked very good again for Glos today Run

His performance was a decent summary of his career. Some really eye catching moments, combined with basic errors. Throw in his propensity to go missing from the first receiver position quite often, which is lauded when he creates something yet ignored when his SH has no idea where he has gone, and I understand why Eddie ignores him.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 1:02 pm

Jones isn't the first coach to overlook Cips either. I rate him highly but think that England have better 10s available.

Am I right in saying that Cipriani hasn't won a trophy since the Heineken Cup in 2007?

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 1:13 pm

Him and Quade Cooper seem similar types....

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 1:29 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Am I right in saying that Cipriani hasn't won a trophy since the Heineken Cup in 2007?

Now that was a depressing game to attend. Cipriani at full back was meant to be a weakness we would exploit, but having played so well the previous weekend in the Premiership final we never got out of first gear for this one.

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Post by Gooseberry on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 1:49 pm

king_carlos wrote:Jones isn't the first coach to overlook Cips either. I rate him highly but think that England have better 10s available.

Am I right in saying that Cipriani hasn't won a trophy since the Heineken Cup in 2007?

Aside from the two in the England side who? Theres been the odd player who has shown flashes of brilliance for a season or so but has anyone shown the same level of consistently high performance that he has since he came back to England?
Hes been one of the top performing fly halves in the Jeff every year since he returned even when playing in some pretty mediocre sides.

The "other coaches didnt pick him" is a bit misleading too ...Johnson did pick him, then he got injured and decided to ignore the request to make himself available for the Saxons and had surgery early. This was at the height of his descent into hensonesque idiocy and then the move to Aus which put him out of the picture ( and into Quade Coopers drinking circle...). He was a very different person then and essentially unavailable for a number of years. He played a bunch of tests under Lancaster and has played under Jones too.
All of them could've capped him more yes, but hes always been close even under Jones who seems not to want him.

His past behaviour and poor commitment has definitely cost him in the past. His tendency to play off the cuff and be a bit chaotic you'd think would appeal to an Aussie but that really now seems to be whats keeping him at arms length. He did well enough when given a chance by Jones, I cant imagine it wouldnt happen again.

Personally I think hes been unfortunate after doing everything right to earn a recall that he couldnt hold it down even having played fairly well. But Ford and Farrell do remain wedded to Jones' plans.
If Ford or Farrell were to get injured who else is going to come into the squad for the world cup ahead of him? Or would we just rely on utility backs like Slade to cover it? For the world cup they would surely want 2 proper options and one utility cover. Id be very surprised not to seem him in the warm ups.



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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 2:16 pm

Five starts for England (4 under Johnson, 1 Jones) is certainly poor reward for a very good player.

While Bomber capped him seven times they were all from the bench, and only twice I think did he come on at FH. In those matches Lancaster had started with Burns.

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Post by king_carlos on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 2:45 pm

Cips was fit for the 2010 6 Nations but overlooked by Johnson. He was dropped during the 2008 AIs after poor performances.

Hence overlooked by Johnson, Lancaster and Jones to differing extents.

As said in the my first post I rate him highly but don't view him being overlooked as the injustice some do. He's a good player, capable of brilliance, but also floats out of games. I'd be happy with him coming into the squad were Farrell or Ford injured though.

His nasty leg break early in his career was such a shame. When he burst onto the scene at full back (agreed on that Final LT, Ilbanez's try is burnt into my memory) he was quicker than many wingers. Following injury he was still quick for a 10 but not quite the same running threat.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 2:53 pm

It's a strange one for England as there have been some very good players overlooked in the past and currently; It's never really an injustice though as it's normally just a straight choice between 2 good players with perhaps different styles or even different weaknesses which can be compensated for a little better with the wider team. We've not seen a Martin Johnson being left out for a borthwick.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 2:54 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Five starts for England (4 under Johnson, 1 Jones) is certainly poor reward for a very good player.

While Bomber capped him seven times they were all from the bench, and only twice I think did he come on at FH. In those matches Lancaster had started with Burns.
Tindall had some interesting things to say about Cipriani on the House of Rugby last week. His first impression was poor: he felt Cipriani was all about himself, and not the team. He was often at loggerheads with the coaches, so Tindall could understand why Johnson didn't want to select him. Fast forward to Tindall's experience of Cipriani at Gloucester, and he thinks very highly of him. He's a creative dynamo, who seems to be trying to do best for the team. If I remember correctly, Tindall thinks the set-up at Sale must take a lot of credit for that change.

I don't think Jones is as averse to using Cipriani as Lancaster was. If Ford or Farrell goes down soon, then I genuinely believe Jones would involve Cipriani, rather than rely on Slade or Lozowski to step up. Smith and Simmonds are other options but that would be a bigger leap than going with Cipriani.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 2:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:...We've not seen a Martin Johnson being left out for a Borthwick.
Sinbad was left out for Lesley Vainikolo, which still stuns me even now, especially since the decision was made by Brian Ashton.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 3:18 pm

Less surprising given his injuries. I'm reaching the limits of my memory though as after a short trawl of Google he was called up later in that 6ns. One of those guys I've alluded to recently that but only for a key injury may have cemented himself in the side and never looked back.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Mon 08 Apr 2019, 3:59 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:...I'm reaching the limits of my memory...
2008 Six Nations. We'd made the 2007 World Cup Final, and Ashton had been reappointed. The 2008 squad was his fresh start, with players like Jason Robinson retiring. 2007-8 saw probably the best, most consistent rugby Sinbad ever played. At the end of the season, he was even named Guinness Premiership Player of The Season, which shows what fine form he was in. Still, Ashton didn't think he warranted a place in the Six Nations squad. He did get a late call-up, when Strettle picked up an injury ahead of the Calcutta Cup match, but he didn't make the matchday squad, and Ashton went into it with a back three of Balshaw, Sackey and Vainikolo, with Tait on the bench. The midfield was Wilkinson, Flood and Noon. We lost 15-9, and Sinbad never got another England cap.

Of all the sliding doors moments in the career of James Simpson Daniel, that remains the most baffling.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 1:12 am

Dear god those were dark days.

Tindall and Noon, Balshaw, Vainakolo.

What was happening to English rugby back then?!! Shocked

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:19 am

yappysnap wrote:Dear god those were dark days.

Tindall and Noon, Balshaw, Vainakolo.

What was happening to  English rugby back then?!! Shocked

Actually...
Tindall was the rock in the midfield around the team that won the world.
Noon, whilst derided at times, was actually a very good prem player, just not an international
Balshaw was absolutely class when he burst on the scene. I think it was the lions tour that broke him, and he never recovered.

Vainikolo - yeah lets lock that one away in a cupboard far away.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:26 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Five starts for England (4 under Johnson, 1 Jones) is certainly poor reward for a very good player.

While Bomber capped him seven times they were all from the bench, and only twice I think did he come on at FH. In those matches Lancaster had started with Burns.
Tindall had some interesting things to say about Cipriani on the House of Rugby last week. His first impression was poor: he felt Cipriani was all about himself, and not the team. He was often at loggerheads with the coaches, so Tindall could understand why Johnson didn't want to select him. Fast forward to Tindall's experience of Cipriani at Gloucester, and he thinks very highly of him. He's a creative dynamo, who seems to be trying to do best for the team. If I remember correctly, Tindall thinks the set-up at Sale must take a lot of credit for that change.

I don't think Jones is as averse to using Cipriani as Lancaster was. If Ford or Farrell goes down soon, then I genuinely believe Jones would involve Cipriani, rather than rely on Slade or Lozowski to step up. Smith and Simmonds are other options but that would be a bigger leap than going with Cipriani.

Yeah this is very much what I was driving at.
Hes matured as a human, but theres still an element of frustration that hes somewhat uncoachable. After Ford there isnt another EQ specialist FH who stands out as a potential world cup star, and he has been Jones' third choice. given he can also cover full back you could colour me amazed if he isnt in the wider training squad, and if there is an injury to the first two hes almost certain to be on the plane to Japan.

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Post by BamBam on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 11:18 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Dear god those were dark days.

Tindall and Noon, Balshaw, Vainakolo.

What was happening to  English rugby back then?!! Shocked

Actually...
Tindall was the rock in the midfield around the team that won the world.
Noon, whilst derided at times, was actually a very good prem player, just not an international
Balshaw was absolutely class when he burst on the scene. I think it was the lions tour that broke him, and he never recovered.

Vainikolo - yeah lets lock that one away in a cupboard far away.

Watching Balshaw and Cohen run riot in the 2001 6N is one of my favourite times watching England!

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 11:24 am

Shame about the foot and mouth epidemic moving the game in Ireland back to late October.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 2:10 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:...I'm reaching the limits of my memory...
2008 Six Nations. We'd made the 2007 World Cup Final, and Ashton had been reappointed. The 2008 squad was his fresh start, with players like Jason Robinson retiring. 2007-8 saw probably the best, most consistent rugby Sinbad ever played. At the end of the season, he was even named Guinness Premiership Player of The Season, which shows what fine form he was in. Still, Ashton didn't think he warranted a place in the Six Nations squad. He did get a late call-up, when Strettle picked up an injury ahead of the Calcutta Cup match, but he didn't make the matchday squad, and Ashton went into it with a back three of Balshaw, Sackey and Vainikolo, with Tait on the bench. The midfield was Wilkinson, Flood and Noon. We lost 15-9, and Sinbad never got another England cap.

Of all the sliding doors moments in the career of James Simpson Daniel, that remains the most baffling.

Im gradually now remembering the heyday of the old 606 and ****ing Balshaw
I do think what really did for him was trying to pretend he was a fullback (cough Daly cough) in that era where Ashton wasnt alone in wanting to play 3 wingers there. That he lacked the basic skills of a fullback wasnt a good enough trade for his running in broken play and just exposed him to some horror shows. Maybe if the rest of the team ( I mean that midfield!) had been better then they couldve carried him as a luxury and we wouldve seen the best of him. The same to some extent goes for JSD, he had this remarkable reputation as the classiest looking wing in the Premiership for most of his career but either want fit or was left out for players with greater size and more rounded skillsets. Looking at Englands attacking set up now I can can see more of what Ashton was aiming for, but they just didnt have the midfield and forwards to give the opportunities the wide players needed.

Slight sidestep on the subject of wasted talent wings ... Christian Wade has got a contract to train with the Bufffalo Bills this year, if he gets through that hes eligible to actually play in the NFL the season after. Fair play, hes putting the work in..its still amazes me he went for it though.


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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 2:32 pm

I think the idea of Balshaw was that strike runner from 15 than a Jonathan Webb style.

NZ had Cullen etc...and Balshaw was seen as the way to go. It worked to a degree, but then he seemed to implode.

Woodward used Jason Robinson in much the same way.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:44 pm

Robinson was able to catch, Balshaw like Monye after him (and Daly now) just couldn't catch high balls under pressure! It was almost comical how bad he was.

That midfield was terrible by the way. By the '08 6N's Tindall was a wreck with shovel hands and Noon was like a slower, less skilled version of him. Sackey was a natural talent but could be lazy, Vanikolo was just a bizzarre call.

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Post by Cyril on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 11:01 pm

Balshaw was a brilliant winger, but not a great full back. I think his later problems (out of position) make people forget how well he played before. In that dodgy post-World Cup period.

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Post by miaow on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 1:45 pm

Assume everyone else missed this as well? Jim Mallinder "the next England Head Coach"...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/04/10/englands-next-head-coach-jim-mallinder-learned-shelf-life-everybody/

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Post by king_carlos on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 2:09 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think the idea of Balshaw was that strike runner from 15 than a Jonathan Webb style.

NZ had Cullen etc...and Balshaw was seen as the way to go. It worked to a degree, but then he seemed to implode.

Woodward used Jason Robinson in much the same way.

Robinson would be in my 'all time XV' as a winger but Lewsey wore 15 when both played. Though they'd interchanged between the right wing and full back a fair bit in attack and defence.

Given the number of England greats in the '03 side, Lewsey is often forgotten. The guy was a freak though. Played across the back three at the highest level regardless depending of position and he could slot in at centre well enough. Not to mention being one of the best defenders you could ask for in the backs.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 4:48 pm

miaow wrote:Assume everyone else missed this as well? Jim Mallinder "the next England Head Coach"...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/04/10/englands-next-head-coach-jim-mallinder-learned-shelf-life-everybody/

You realise youve just outed yourself as a Telegraph subscriber

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Post by miaow on Wed 10 Apr 2019, 5:15 pm

Haha, I'm not actually. I was reading a different article - a Maggie Alphonsi article, actually, from earlier in the 6Ns - and that was recommended at the bottom. Had a 'wtf' moment before realising I'd been clickbaited. But, it's still interesting. Baxter, Mallinder...did Cockerill have an interim stint at some point as well?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 8:03 pm

Wasps say Dan Robson & Jack Willis won't be back this season

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