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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 9:36 am

the42.ie wrote:50/22 kicking and yellow card upgrades among possible World Rugby law trials


New law trial suggestions were gathered at the World Rugby Player Welfare and Law Symposium, held over three days this week at the French Rugby Federation’s headquarters in Marcoussis, close to Paris.

Leading coaches like the All Blacks’ Ian Foster and South Africa’s Jacques Nienaber were present, as well as International Rugby Players representatives Jean de Villiers, Thierry Dusautoir and Conrad Smith, and officials from the leading unions and competitions.

The Symposium heard encouraging evidence that the incidence of injuries is not increasing across the world’s elite competitions, while concussion decreased in the 2017/18 season, although injury severity has been on the rise in several nations.

“The injury rates are pretty stable but we need to be ambitious about dropping those injury rates as best we can,” said World Rugby CEO Brett Gosper on Wednesday.

Concussion remains the most common match injury and most pressing issue for rugby, with the tackle producing the majority of concussions. 

World Rugby’s data says the tackle accounts for 76% of all concussions, with 72% of concussions sustained by the tackler.

While the governing body will continue to push a clampdown on illegal high tackles – a simplified framework for sanctioning dangerous tackles is set to be revealed soon – law change suggestions were also welcomed at the Symposium.

One of the biggest on-pitch trends in rugby over the past decade has been the increased prevalence of aggressive ‘linespeed’ in defence, with teams filling their defensive line with up to 14 players and rushing forward into tackles – a situation where poor technique is particularly exposed.

Reducing the number of players in the defensive frontline was discussed at the Symposium, leading to the suggestion of a ’50/22′ law for kicking.

This would be a simple tweak whereby a kick from within your own half [your own 50-metre area] that bounces in the field of play before crossing the touchline in the opposition 22 would result in the kicking team getting the throw into the lineout.

An adaptation of the 40/20 kick in rugby league, the hope would be that the threat of these kicks would see defences keep more players in the backfield in order to prevent the kicking team securing an advantageous attacking lineout in the 22.

That, in turn, could produce more space in the defensive frontline and mean fewer tackle events. 

The 50/22 law amendment suggestion was popular at the Symposium and it would be no surprise to see it brought forward to the trial phase in the next cycle after this year’s World Cup.

Another suggestion that will be presented to World Rugby’s Law Review Group [LRG] is that yellow cards would be followed by in-game reviews by the citing commissioner, who would have the possibility of upgrading the sanction to a red card within the 10-minute sin-bin window.

The intention would be to ensure a greater number of correct red cards for foul play and fewer incidences of teams losing the in-game benefit they may be missing out on when referees erroneously show yellow cards to the opposition instead of reds.

In total, eight law suggestions [the FFR will carry two of their own in amateur rugby] from the Symposium will be presented to World Rugby’s LRG – others focus on the offside line, the number of substitutions, and committing players to rucks – who will meet in May to begin discussing possible law trials to be launched in 2020.

“There will be unintended consequences, unforeseen consequences – good and bad – that we’ll just have to wait to see when we get into a trial situation,” said Gosper.

The recent trials around tackle height were also examined at this week’s Symposium, with the likelihood being that the ‘high tackle warning system’ used at last year’s World Rugby U20 Championship will be trialed in another elite competition.

The U20 Championship in June saw citing commissioners issuing ‘high-tackle warnings’ to any players who were deemed to have been “upright [not bent at the waist]” in tackles. 

Each high tackle warning counted as ‘one strike,’ with two strikes meaning that a player would be suspended for one game.

In total, 11 high tackle warnings were issued at the U20 Championship, with no player receiving two, and the medical data from the tournament shows that the warning system reduced the concussion incidence by 50%.

Encouraged by that reduction but aware of the small study size, World Rugby presented further information at the Symposium and is now hopeful that one of the leading elite senior professional competitions will carry the trial.

Outside of that trial, there is still some sense that high tackles are not being punished severely enough, with statistics showing that players are more likely to receive yellow cards for deliberate knock-ons or ‘not back 10 metres’ offences than they are for dangerous high tackles.

That said, the backlash that first greeted the increased focus on tackle height – some arguing that “rugby is going soft” – has faded in recent times, with fans, players, coaches, and the media now seemingly more surprised when cards aren’t shown after illegal high tackles.

“I think it’s gone well,” said Gosper. “Sometimes there’s been some issues around execution but the intent is there and the understanding of the high tackle danger is much clearer. We’re adding more clarity with the process we’ve been through over the past few days.

“We know cards change behaviour and player welfare is so important you have to be willing to do that. Our role is to give the match officials the confidence to do what they need to do.”

The Symposium involved further presentations, panels, and workshops on injury surveillance, anti-doping, and age grade and community rugby issues.

Player workload was another key focus, with World Rugby now ensuring that every player competing at the World Cup this year must have a ‘‘load passport’ to monitor their training load management between club and country commitments.

All in all, the Symposium was a positive and productive meeting of key figures in the game, with the focus on improving the safety of rugby offering real encouragement.

“What’s unique about this particular symposium was how we could get all of those groups of different stakeholders and experts into the same room,” said Gosper.

“So rather than just look at the laws [to improve the game as a spectacle] and then [look at] whether it has a player welfare impact, try to devise laws that have a direct player welfare impact.

“That’s the first time we’ve looked at it in that sense and we saw the theme of the meeting: spectacle versus player welfare.

“This is really about looking at the shape of the game and working out what can actually have a material effect on some of the outcomes we’re having in the injury rates. 

“Involving the leagues is important as well because these trials need to land in meaningful competitions. If they don’t land in meaningful competitions, they don’t trial as well as they should but I think there’s a collective will to do this in the right way and that was part of the reason for having this here as well.”

The outcome of this 3 day meeting, chaired by ex-Scottish international John Jeffrey, has been reported on by a number of media outlets. All seem to be concentrating on on the 50/22 suggestion and the review of YCs by the citing officer during the 10 minutes. I would like more info on some of the other suggestions.

I notice that in the comments about concussions we have almost 3 times as many tacklers being concussed as we have ball carriers. I would be interested to know how this has moved following the focus on high tackles. Gut feel is that tackling round the legs would cause more concussions to the tackler than round the waist/chest.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 9:43 am

While the governing body will continue to push a clampdown on illegal high tackles – a simplified framework for sanctioning dangerous tackles is set to be revealed soon – law change suggestions were also welcomed at the Symposium. wrote:

This needs to be seriously looked at, what happened to Leigh Halfpenny in the Autumn was a farce, and any shoulder to the opposition should be a yellow to red card.

This would be a simple tweak whereby a kick from within your own half [your own 50-metre area] that bounces in the field of play before crossing the touchline in the opposition 22 would result in the kicking team getting the throw into the lineout. An adaptation of the 40/20 kick in rugby league, the hope would be that the threat of these kicks would see defences keep more players in the backfield in order to prevent the kicking team securing an advantageous attacking lineout in the 22. wrote:

Surely this would just lead to more kicking, right up to the pint where you get a 5mtr line out and a maul.

This is a terrible idea. All they need to do is clamp down on reckless collisions.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 9:54 am

I am not sure on the kicking idea, but a similar law has been in place in RL for a long time and there is no increase in kicking because the defending team drop players back which means there is more space to run. It should be noted that the 8 recommendations will be reviewed by the full Law Committee when it next meets.

As to reckless challenges it should be noted that:

a) Most of the challenges we shout about in forums are never cited - so the enforcers of the law have a very different view on what is wrong to us posters
b) Most concussions occur in the tackle area with the tackler being 3 times more likely to suffer the concussion. Incidents like 1/2p are very much they minority.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 9:57 am

Also a charge down not a tackle. Equally not a consistent are of the game though.

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 10:00 am

In total, eight law suggestions [the FFR will carry two of their own in amateur rugby] from the Symposium will be presented to World Rugby’s LRG – others focus on the offside line, the number of substitutions, and committing players to rucks – who will meet in May to begin discussing possible law trials to be launched in 2020.


Some more info on the bold bit:



Amateur rugby clubs in France will trial law changes which include lowering the height of a tackle and banning tackles by two players next season, the French Rugby Federation's (FFR) technical director Didier Retiere said on Tuesday.

"We're going to work on lowering the height of the tackle down to the waist and we are aiming to prohibit two-man tackles," Retiere said at a Player Welfare and Law Symposium organised by the FFR and World Rugby in Paris.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 10:08 am

That would.maoe things a helluva lot easier for the carrying side would it not. Take 2 men carries vs one guy trying to stop it along with easier offload s or simply use the 2nd man to form the ruck?

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Post by LondonTiger on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 11:11 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:That would.maoe things a helluva lot easier for the carrying side would it not. Take 2 men carries vs one guy trying to stop it along with easier offload s or simply use the 2nd man to form the ruck?


It could well do. I struggle to see the removal of two man tackles actually working at the top level. After all how do you define when a second man (from either team) can join. If a man is being held up when can a maul be created etc. This is of course a trial that the French are trying in amateur rugby in the face of the deaths they have had this season.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 11:31 am

Yes and understandable they'd be looking at all aspects of what could change.

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Post by tigertattie on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 12:30 pm

I can't see how it would work.

You are defending on your line and someone picks and goes from 2 foot out and runs at the two defenders. Do you say to your buddy "I'm tackling him, stand clear"?

I would expect tha if two man tackles are being removed then two man carries would need rmeoved also. How a maul would then work is beyone me. We can't lose the maul, love a good maul I do. Really gets the crowd going!

I'm all for trying new ideas and to make the game more accessible. I'm not one of the "rugby is going soft" brigade but many of these proposed changes are moving us closer to a rugby league version of the game. We couls soon see rugby being played by the 6ft standard player and we'll lose the positions like winger, lock and prop.
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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 12:39 pm

Why don't we just change it to this now and be done with it:-

https://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 12:43 pm

What about a designated combined weight your squad must arrive at match day in? That way you can have your meat grinder players of tremendous mass but then you have to sacrifice weight in other places. It might prevent teams dominating in impact weight rather than skills. After all a rhinoceros at top speed against a man...only one outcome.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Thu 21 Mar 2019, 8:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Why don't we just change it to this now and be done with it:-

https://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game
Alternatively we could return to the rules of Rugby and scrap all these rules that have been inflicted on us in recent years to appease those who prefer League who seem to be in a majority in World Rugby.


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Post by robbo277 on Fri 22 Mar 2019, 6:46 am

People have likened rugby to chess, maybe just play chess? Fewer welfare issues, less refereeing controversy, citings rare.

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Post by rodders on Fri 22 Mar 2019, 9:49 am

Crazy. What we are seeing are just more and more knee jerk reactions to the, with hindsight, obvious consequences of professionalism - i.e. bigger, more powerful, evenly matched athletes leading to bigger collisions and more impact.



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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 22 Mar 2019, 9:53 am

LordDowlais wrote:Why don't we just change it to this now and be done with it:-

https://www.rugby-league.com/the_rfl/rules/laws_of_the_game

What do you think the Australian RFU are trying to do ?

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Post by ebop on Fri 22 Mar 2019, 10:06 am

My initial thought on the 50/22 kick was why the heck are they bringing in a rugby league rule but then I saw a few photos from recent 6Ns games that showed a defensive line of 13/14 players spread out across the field and thought that looks exactly like rugby league. Maybe a 50/22 kick will create more space and make the game more open and less oppressive. Especially given referees are hopeless at policing the offside line.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 22 Mar 2019, 10:13 am

That's generally the push factor isn't it. The refs aren't seeing the laws or breaking of them as I do lets change the law. Ignoring the fact that the new law will bring about unintended consequences and still won't be officiated as some would like! TBF this is a safety thing and given the deaths it's obvious it would be looked at. Can't see it making it into the confirmed set of laws though.

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Post by rodders on Fri 22 Mar 2019, 10:16 am

True but in League you don't have the line out to restart the game, this gives way too much advantage to the attacking team. The game would become like kick tennis.
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Post by yappysnap on Fri 22 Mar 2019, 6:29 pm

Frak it. Leave the rules alone.

Just make all the pitches wider.

Start with tier 1 Int stadia, then Tier 2, then clubs.

More space and more running hopefully.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 24 Mar 2019, 7:04 am

World Rugby’s proposed law changes to produce a more fluid game and reduce the number of head-on tackles include outlawing the work of the modern-day “jackal” and lowering the number of replacements.
The game’s governing body wants to penalise the practice of a defender (referred to as the “jackal”) stopping the flow by getting over the ball, playing it with his hands after the tackle and trying to effect a turnover. The number of replacements — currently eight — would be cut to six or even five.
The banishment of the “jackal” would mean that players arriving at the breakdown could not touch the ball but instead would have to drive over it to leave it behind. This could restore old-fashioned rucking and also bring more players into the contact area, so leaving more space on the field in which to attack.
Reducing the number of replacements would increase levels of fatigue later in the match, lowering the intensity and the number of tackle hits. At present, fresh players are arriving and smashing their way through the last quarter.

Some additional info about other proposed changes not covered earlier. (Taken from the Sunday Times)

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 24 Mar 2019, 7:47 am

Absolutely stupid. The laws have banished old fashioned Frak so they really mean very limited challenge for the ball.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 24 Mar 2019, 7:38 pm

Presented without comment...
BBC News - Euro 2020: Georgia opponent rushes to Swiss player's aid
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47684741

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Post by yappysnap on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 3:36 am

Jeeeeeeez

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 9:15 am

Fewer subs would mean teams like England would really struggle at the end of games :/
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 9:30 am

ebop wrote:Fewer subs would mean teams like England would really struggle at the end of games :/

Bearing in mind Eddie tended not to use his bench this season, why?

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 9:50 am

LondonTiger wrote:
ebop wrote:Fewer subs would mean teams like England would really struggle at the end of games :/

Bearing in mind Eddie tended not to use his bench this season, why?
Because he wanted to give up 31 point leads to ready his players? Get them in a fatigue state and see if they could push through the barrier to build mental toughness?
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 9:54 am

So by that it would benefit us as others wouldn't be able to use as many subs. Get your wums in order ebop. C minus.

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:02 am

Only if England lobby for a 50 minute game. Your players are too big, they get a little bit tired and drop the ball 7.5.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:07 am

Oh right. Cool. So what effect does that have on player safety then. You think that will make players like Billy Vunipola who lasts the whole 80 mins slim down or possibly encourage players to play through the pain? Positive or negative effect?

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:18 am

7.5, it’s difficult to respond to your scatter gun questions. Can you please try ask your questions again in a logical way that makes sense. Not sure what you mean by Billy V and slim and blah blah.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:32 am

Sorry ebop. Do you think reducing subs will make players like Billy Vunipola slim down even though he easily lasts 80 plus mins currently?
If not will any players actually get smaller and do you have examples?
Would reducing subs have any detrimental effect in putting players under more pressure to play on though injuries (though admittedly they do that currently risking their long term health).

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:48 am

Billy V lasts 80? Though he struggles with injury 7.5. Maybe not such a good example. Probably too big. His fat brother Mako would definitely have to shed some kgs. He’s a 40 minute player isn’t he? Not sure what your angle about playing on through injuries and long term health is about as it contradicts your bleeding hearts attitude. It’s common knowledge that having more subs means more injuries. Bringing on fresh players to go as hard as they can for 15 minutes against some players that have been there all game results in injuries.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:54 am

No. Both regularly last or either the whole game or a large proportion of it. Given Mako is a loose head prop he plays long shifts. I understand your initial point in England as you're not aware of this. I'll leave it there as your responses suggest you need a bit of time to think it through.

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 10:59 am

Billy V = injury prone, and Mako, well he’s a lump and not much of an endurance athlete despite you thinking otherwise. Any thoughts on fresh subs and the impact they can have on a game 7.5? You know, the way they can run 100% into fatigued players. Bring on a really big guy and get him to run full-tit for 20 minutes into the opposition first five or halfback because that’s all he’s good for. Any thoughts on that, could it conceivably lead to ‘more’ injuries?
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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:08 am

ebop wrote:Any thoughts on fresh subs and the impact they can have on a game 7.5? You know, the way they can run 100% into fatigued players. Bring on a really big guy and get him to run full-tit for 20 minutes into the opposition first five or halfback because that’s all he’s good for. Any thoughts on that?

You should be aiming that at Eddie seeing as he seems unwilling to do it. Maybe if he speaks to Hansen he would learn of the benefits of bringing big guys on at 60 minutes.


As to Billy - yes he has had injuries, being broken arms recently. However just to demonstrate that his ability to last 80 minutes is perhaps stronger than you are willing to admit to, he played all but 16 minutes in this years tournament, and has twice previously played all 400 minutes.

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Post by BamBam on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:13 am

Mako lasted 77 mins against Ireland, not bad at all for a fat prop in a game with that level of intensity

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:14 am

How’d they go against Scotland?
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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:18 am

Not sure what Eddie is playing at, probably underplaying his hand, like Schmidt. Both teams went out of their way to look average in the 6Ns. You’d have to hope so.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:31 am

Makes you wonder if world rugby are chasing something they'll never achieve simply down to perception. The safety around hia does need improving still but is pretty good now. Still seen as a violent sport that parents don't encourage for their children. Foot ball is miles behind and regularly sees players get knocks to the head which is ignored or worse reported on and health impacts not acknowledged. Rugby could go no contact and still be behind football.

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Post by ebop on Mon 25 Mar 2019, 11:43 am

Comparing with football is apples and oranges. There is no reason why a football player should be concussed. And rugby is a far cry from what it used to be. James Graham the British league star in the NRL has been in the news recently. ‘It’s my life, I’ll do what I want to....’

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/graham-must-wake-up-to-dangers-of-concussion-20190320-p515zw.html

https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/james-graham-hits-back-over-concussion-criticism/news-story/6799136171d7bfc9972dbe05c8f850c7
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World Rugby Player Welfare and Law Symposium - 8 Recommendations Empty Re: World Rugby Player Welfare and Law Symposium - 8 Recommendations

Post by Brendan on Thu 28 Mar 2019, 10:28 am

One suggestion they mentioned on the radio here was allow the scrum half to throw dummies at ruck like the use to. People then can't shoot up as quickly as it's in the back of their minds.

They could change use it to ball out or ruck over instead of use it to keep rucks short.

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World Rugby Player Welfare and Law Symposium - 8 Recommendations Empty Re: World Rugby Player Welfare and Law Symposium - 8 Recommendations

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 28 Mar 2019, 10:42 am

ebop wrote:Comparing with football is apples and oranges. There is no reason why a football player should be concussed. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10666738/Footballer-died-from-heading-a-ball.html

Now Jeff Astle played with leather balls much heavier than current ones but footballers do get concussed on a regular basis. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/04/concussion-loris-karius-liverpool-goalkeeper-champions-league-final-massachusetts

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/feb/04/football-concussion-diagnosis-sport-technology

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/46900052

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World Rugby Player Welfare and Law Symposium - 8 Recommendations Empty Re: World Rugby Player Welfare and Law Symposium - 8 Recommendations

Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 28 Mar 2019, 1:05 pm

Gordon Taylor the outgoing PFA chief exec was side stepping the paltry amount of spending they've done on concussions on radio 4 this morning. It's only perception they're bothered about.

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