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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 14 Mar 2019, 9:02 pm

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:So a good day for the Prime Minister, at last. Motion carried and some pesky amendments defeated.


Yes folks a good day for the PM is telling the Country over 50 times in the Commons the UK is leaving on the 29th March and then winning an extension..

What a low bar..

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Post by Samo on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 4:35 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Samo wrote:Rumours are No. 10 have scheduled a press conference for 5pm. Could May walk?

Not without stepping on a rake.

Ala Sideshow Bob.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 4:43 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Samo wrote:Rumours are No. 10 have scheduled a press conference for 5pm. Could May walk?

Not without stepping on a rake.
Laugh Laugh Laugh Thanks. Weather's been great today, clocks go forward on Saturday night, I'm about to head home for a drink and I nearly just snorted coffee out of my nose onto this keyboard. If I forget Brexit for a sec, I'm actually feeling quite good just now.
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Post by lostinwales on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 4:49 pm

superflyweight wrote:Two grown up and responsible things the government could do which would not (despite what anyone says to the contrary) compromise the result of the original referendum:

(1) They can ask for a longer extension and try to resolve the deadlock with a 2nd referendum or a General Election.  The EU will grant a longer extension.  

(2) They can revoke Article 50 and then start a detailed and collaborative cross-party consultation process to decide what kind of (achievable) Brexit is best for the country, give notice again under Article 50 and negotiate with the EU to try to achieve that.  If they wish, they could have a 2nd referendum to allow the public to decide if that Brexit is the Brexit they want.


Could of started process 2 2 years ago. It was the only sensible path. Currently the only sensible path seems to involve pencils, a handkerchief and the word 'wibble'

Either of the above would be welcome

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 4:53 pm

The European Commission have released a statement:

"A 'no-deal' scenario on 12 April is now a likely scenario. The EU has been preparing for this since December 2017 and is now fully prepared for a 'no-deal' scenario at midnight on 12 April."

There's no way on God's green earth that we're fully prepared. It's fine though, because they need us more than we need them....

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 4:59 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The European Commission have released a statement:

"A 'no-deal' scenario on 12 April is now a likely scenario. The EU has been preparing for this since December 2017 and is now fully prepared for a 'no-deal' scenario at midnight on 12 April."

They know that a longer extension request is unlikely to be tolerated by all of the EU27, particularly as said extension is unlikely to achieve anything.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:07 pm

It would be unlikely to achieve anything if all the government intends to do is keep pushing a withdrawal agreement that's been rejected three times already. If parliament can agree on an alternative proposal on Monday that would be acceptable to the EU, and the government doesn't take it up, then the problem isn't parliament or the EU, it's this government.

We're going to have a general election, aren't we?


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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:19 pm

They can't revoke A50 because that would destroy the Conservative Party.

A No Deal Brexit enforced by EC/EU is on the cards.

A long extension request with MEP elections - looks very much on the cards - but that decision will probably also destroy the Conservative Party.

Both the SNP (wanting to go independent) and Labour are in a very strong position - except a Corbyn led Labour with that shadow cabinet is not palatable to many.

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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:25 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It would be unlikely to achieve anything if all the government intends to do is keep pushing a withdrawal agreement that's been rejected three times already. If parliament can agree on an alternative proposal on Monday that would be acceptable to the EU, and the government doesn't take it up, then the problem isn't parliament or the EU, it's this government.

We're going to have a general election, aren't we?

We can't have a general election - because decisions have to be made as Britain heads into oblivion (uncertainty).   If A50 is revoked - the conservatives will be destroyed in the next general election.  I can only see a long extension request plus MEP elections - but that too will probably destroy the conservatives at the next election.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:28 pm

No name Bertie wrote:They can't revoke A50 because that would destroy the Conservative Party.

A No Deal Brexit enforced by EC/EU is on the cards.

Are you serious? This was all our idea! We wanted to go! 'Enforced by the EU' my @rse!

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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:29 pm

It would be foolish for the EC/EU not to accept a long extension request (at least 18 months) with MEP elections - becuase the fall of the conservative party is on the cards, as well as a new referendum. Britain would still have to pay the EU its normal fees during the extension. It is looking like Britain may not leave the EU at all. But if that is the case British politics is likely to change dramatically.

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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:31 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:They can't revoke A50 because that would destroy the Conservative Party.

A No Deal Brexit enforced by EC/EU is on the cards.

Are you serious? This was all our idea! We wanted to go! 'Enforced by the EU' my @rse!
Don't be obtuse - if Britain can't make a decision then the EC/EU has to make the decision for it.

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Post by No name Bertie on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:33 pm

If everyone is going to start fighting amongst each other - as is being done on most other social platforms - then you are welcome to it.

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:36 pm

But the final decision will still be parliament's. I don't believe enough MPs would watch a No Deal Brexit happen when the power to revoke Article 50 is available. You'd see mass cabinet resignations. Government would collapse.

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Post by Samo on Fri 29 Mar 2019, 5:57 pm

I can see a hefty extension on the horizon, with EU elections and all. At that point you're aswell revoking and going back to the drawing board.

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Post by Pr4wn on Sat 30 Mar 2019, 8:58 am

Compare the two marches in the last two weeks. The remain march was peaceful and a million strong. The leave march was small and thuggish with chants of "Tommy Robinson" being sung and media representatives being targeted.

Just ask yourself. Which version of Britain do you want to be associated with?

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 30 Mar 2019, 9:21 am

‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

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Post by Pr4wn on Sat 30 Mar 2019, 9:49 am

Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 30 Mar 2019, 11:56 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

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Post by lostinwales on Sat 30 Mar 2019, 2:04 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.

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Post by No name Bertie on Sat 30 Mar 2019, 9:14 pm

lostinwales wrote: It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.
Bit in bold - excellent stereotyping - in some social media forums I've looked at there are remainers wishing the death of old and middle-aged white English people - because they blame them for voting leave and claim they are racist scum and leeches on society.   I hope this thread doesn't descend into that.  

Let's focus on what is known, the now and the political process moving forward.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 30 Mar 2019, 9:29 pm

No name Bertie wrote:
lostinwales wrote: It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.
Bit in bold - excellent stereotyping - in some social media forums I've looked at there are remainers wishing the death of old white English people - because they blame them for voting leave and claim they are racist scum.   I hope this thread doesn't descend into that.  

Let's focus on what is known, the now and the political process moving forward.

It's a bizarre thing that a tiny minority of Remain supporters like to cling on to - the deaths of fellow human beings. It's part of the ageism that has sadly spread throughout the UK since the referendum and been largely unchallenged since.

And that somehow these deaths have shifted the balance of opinion in favour of Remain, even though it is reckoned that as many as 2/5ths of the 65+ bracket voted to Remain.

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Post by Pr4wn on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 12:52 am

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

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Post by Samo on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 3:27 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

I particualrly enjoyed seeing effigies of Theresa May and Sadiq Khan being dragged around by a noose round their necks. And seeing the people on Twitter claiming “its what Traitors deserve”. This whole mess has really brought the ugly side of Britain out, but much more worryingly it seems to have emboldened them.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 8:53 am

Duty281 wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
lostinwales wrote: It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.
Bit in bold - excellent stereotyping - in some social media forums I've looked at there are remainers wishing the death of old white English people - because they blame them for voting leave and claim they are racist scum.   I hope this thread doesn't descend into that.  

Let's focus on what is known, the now and the political process moving forward.

It's a bizarre thing that a tiny minority of Remain supporters like to cling on to - the deaths of fellow human beings. It's part of the ageism that has sadly spread throughout the UK since the referendum and been largely unchallenged since.

And that somehow these deaths have shifted the balance of opinion in favour of Remain, even though it is reckoned that as many as 2/5ths of the 65+ bracket voted to Remain.

For the man who tells us not to generalise and say all Brexiteers are thugs, that goes well with suggesting that mentioning old people dying is actually saying some Remainers "cling to the deaths of fellow human beings"

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 8:57 am

No name Bertie wrote:
lostinwales wrote: It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.
Bit in bold - excellent stereotyping - in some social media forums I've looked at there are remainers wishing the death of old and middle-aged white English people - because they blame them for voting leave and claim they are racist scum and leeches on society.   I hope this thread doesn't descend into that.  

Let's focus on what is known, the now and the political process moving forward.
Is claiming plenty of older people will have died actually stereotyping? I'd guess it's probably a lot more likely people die as they get older, in general. Very Happy

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 11:14 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
lostinwales wrote: It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.
Bit in bold - excellent stereotyping - in some social media forums I've looked at there are remainers wishing the death of old white English people - because they blame them for voting leave and claim they are racist scum.   I hope this thread doesn't descend into that.  

Let's focus on what is known, the now and the political process moving forward.

It's a bizarre thing that a tiny minority of Remain supporters like to cling on to - the deaths of fellow human beings. It's part of the ageism that has sadly spread throughout the UK since the referendum and been largely unchallenged since.

And that somehow these deaths have shifted the balance of opinion in favour of Remain, even though it is reckoned that as many as 2/5ths of the 65+ bracket voted to Remain.

For the man who tells us not to generalise and say all Brexiteers are thugs, that goes well with suggesting that mentioning old people dying is actually saying some Remainers "cling to the deaths of fellow human beings"

Yes, a tiny minority of Remain voters do cling to the deaths of fellow human beings to try and argue that the 2016 vote is in some way invalid. They are in no way representative of the majority of Remain voters, of course, but it's still a sad occurrence.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 11:14 am

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

There was no 1m+ march of Remainers - if you need to lie to support your point, it proves that you have little argument to make.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 12:16 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
lostinwales wrote: It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.
Bit in bold - excellent stereotyping - in some social media forums I've looked at there are remainers wishing the death of old white English people - because they blame them for voting leave and claim they are racist scum.   I hope this thread doesn't descend into that.  

Let's focus on what is known, the now and the political process moving forward.

It's a bizarre thing that a tiny minority of Remain supporters like to cling on to - the deaths of fellow human beings. It's part of the ageism that has sadly spread throughout the UK since the referendum and been largely unchallenged since.

And that somehow these deaths have shifted the balance of opinion in favour of Remain, even though it is reckoned that as many as 2/5ths of the 65+ bracket voted to Remain.

For the man who tells us not to generalise and say all Brexiteers are thugs, that goes well with suggesting that mentioning old people dying is actually saying some Remainers "cling to the deaths of fellow human beings"

Yes, a tiny minority of Remain voters do cling to the deaths of fellow human beings to try and argue that the 2016 vote is in some way invalid. They are in no way representative of the majority of Remain voters, of course, but it's still a sad occurrence.

I think that's putting a spin on it, really, in a rather nasty way.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 12:30 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:
lostinwales wrote: It is not 17.4 million people supporting Brexit though, not now. Plenty have died, plenty wanted to give the government a deserved bloody nose, some may have changed their mind. not so many voted for the current Poopie storm. Last I looked the UK covers 66 million too.
Bit in bold - excellent stereotyping - in some social media forums I've looked at there are remainers wishing the death of old white English people - because they blame them for voting leave and claim they are racist scum.   I hope this thread doesn't descend into that.  

Let's focus on what is known, the now and the political process moving forward.

It's a bizarre thing that a tiny minority of Remain supporters like to cling on to - the deaths of fellow human beings. It's part of the ageism that has sadly spread throughout the UK since the referendum and been largely unchallenged since.

And that somehow these deaths have shifted the balance of opinion in favour of Remain, even though it is reckoned that as many as 2/5ths of the 65+ bracket voted to Remain.

For the man who tells us not to generalise and say all Brexiteers are thugs, that goes well with suggesting that mentioning old people dying is actually saying some Remainers "cling to the deaths of fellow human beings"

Yes, a tiny minority of Remain voters do cling to the deaths of fellow human beings to try and argue that the 2016 vote is in some way invalid. They are in no way representative of the majority of Remain voters, of course, but it's still a sad occurrence.

I think that's putting a spin on it, really, in a rather nasty way.

No spin required.

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Post by JuliusHMarx on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 6:53 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

There was no 1m+ march of Remainers - if you need to lie to support your point, it proves that you have little argument to make.

£350m/week for the NHS

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 6:59 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

There was no 1m+ march of Remainers - if you need to lie to support your point, it proves that you have little argument to make.

£350m/week for the NHS

Exactly, Prawn has as much credibility as the dire 'Vote Leave' campaign.

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Post by No name Bertie on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 7:41 pm

A good leader (or good general) has to focus on the here and now and to not wallow in "he said she said bowl lux" or "mine is bigger that yours" crock. Too much juvenile banter - no wonder Plato didn't believe in giving the riffraff a say in his imagined Republic. But Plato was too much of an idealist. O' well nobody is perfect.

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Post by No name Bertie on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 7:53 pm

Ps my own view, which I think is consistent with the Leave result of the 2016 referendum is a brexit with a customs union similar to whatever whatever has (Norwegian or Canadian model?).

This period of uncertainty has at least shown how poor our current leaders and MPs are - political chancers the lot of them.  Maybe I exaggerate but some of these career politicians have no experience of leadership or proper management in the real world.

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Post by Hero on Sun 31 Mar 2019, 8:18 pm

No name Bertie wrote:A good leader (or good general) has to focus on the here and now and to not wallow in "he said she said bowl lux" or "mine is bigger that yours" crock. Too much juvenile banter - no wonder Plato didn't believe in giving the riffraff a say in his imagined Republic.  But Plato was too much of an idealist.  O' well nobody is perfect.

A fair few Brexiteers thought like Plato and thought they would be able to get out of the cave looking at the shadows.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 12:27 am

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

There was no 1m+ march of Remainers - if you need to lie to support your point, it proves that you have little argument to make.

If I change the number, will you engage in the point I was making? Or will you continue to run away from it?

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Post by Luckless Pedestrian on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 10:35 am

No name Bertie wrote:Ps my own view, which I think is consistent with the Leave result of the 2016 referendum is a brexit with a customs union similar to whatever whatever has (Norwegian or Canadian model?).

There would have been support for a customs union Brexit from the start, if the government had deigned to consult Parliament. That's possibly the worst thing about this whole debacle: Parliament wasn't asked. It was barely kept informed. 'We alone will decide what Brexit is, and we're not telling you what that is.'

What a waste of a couple of years, negotiating for a deal that wouldn't pass, when it could have been spent negotiating for a deal that it had already been established would pass.

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Post by No name Bertie on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 12:23 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
No name Bertie wrote:Ps my own view, which I think is consistent with the Leave result of the 2016 referendum is a brexit with a customs union similar to whatever whatever has (Norwegian or Canadian model?).

There would have been support for a customs union Brexit from the start, if the government had deigned to consult Parliament. That's possibly the worst thing about this whole debacle: Parliament wasn't asked. It was barely kept informed. 'We alone will decide what Brexit is, and we're not telling you what that is.'

What a waste of a couple of years, negotiating for a deal that wouldn't pass, when it could have been spent negotiating for a deal that it had already been established would pass.
Clearly the conservatives have made a complete mess of it.  
1) David Cameron and his advisors in putting the EU Referendum on their manifesto for the 2015 GE WITHOUT considering what they would do if the vote was for leave.

2) David Cameron resigning after the Leave Vote - which demonstrated he had NO IDEA what to do if the referendum resulted in a leave vote.  He clearly lied when he said he would lead the country out of the EU if the result was leave - revealing himself to be yet another political chancer.

3) Theresa May has been revealed to be too insular - relying on a set of personal advisers - and not wanting to bring anyone else into the decision making process.   This has been revealed by her a) campaign during the 2017 General Election - which many said was disastrous with her refusing to listen to advise outside of her personal advisers. b) her management of the Brexit process.

As far as I am aware the EC/EU are willing to grant an extension to Britain as long as it is at least 8 to 10 months in length & Britain participate in the May 23rd MEP elections.

I think most people can now see Britain is not prepared for a NO DEAL Brexit - and it is potentially disastrous and too much of a leap into the unknown - especially given it is now clear Britain doesn't have the politcal leadership or political competence for it.

LEAVE and staying in the Customs Union as per the Norway Model or Canadian Model seems to be the best compromise given the present situation.  It may even lessen the drive for an independent Scotland - which is very much on the cards if Britain finds itself outside of the EU with no deal come April 13th.

Clearly May's Deal should be put on the scrapheap and the Government & Parliament should now focus on getting a substantial extension and then sorting out a deal that involves staying in the customs union.


Last edited by No name Bertie on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Various typos.)

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Post by lostinwales on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 1:25 pm

How long do you give someone to make progress on a task when they are not up to it before you start asking questions about the whole process?

If there had been even an inkling of a realistic plan which did not ruin us there would be more support, but right now the best 'compromise' would be to revoke article 50. The already weak mandate for Brexit should have disappeared with Leave.EU ending their appeal in the case about their behaviour during the previous referendum. The result cannot be ignored, and must force a proper investigation and changes, but Brexit itself without a period of introspection was always the dumbest option.

A second referendum would be bad but still potentially better than the alternatives. For all the talk of our global reputation the damage has already been done.For all the crap talk of 'wrecking democracy' it is already in a terrible state. Going through with Brexit in the current circumstances isn't going to help that at all.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 1:47 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

There was no 1m+ march of Remainers - if you need to lie to support your point, it proves that you have little argument to make.

If I change the number, will you engage in the point I was making? Or will you continue to run away from it?

Perhaps, but you're going to have to make a point first.

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Post by No name Bertie on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 2:15 pm

lostinwales wrote:How long do you give someone to make progress on a task when they are not up to it before you start asking questions about the whole process?

If there had been even an inkling of a realistic plan which did not ruin us there would be more support, but right now the best 'compromise' would be to revoke article 50. The already weak mandate for Brexit should have disappeared with Leave.EU ending their appeal in the case about their behaviour during the previous referendum. The result cannot be ignored, and must force a proper investigation and changes, but Brexit itself without a period of introspection was always the dumbest option.

A second referendum would be bad but still potentially better than the alternatives. For all the talk of our global reputation the damage has already been done.For all the crap talk of 'wrecking democracy' it is already in a terrible state.  Going through with Brexit in the current circumstances isn't going to help that at all.
The focus has to be on the next few days - which is going to the EU requesting a long extension with a commitment to holding MEP elections on 23rd May.

A50 is not going to be revoked before 12th April. The Tories are already divided about conceding "a leave with a customs union" (rather than May's Deal) - with some claiming that if they go for a customs union that would shatter the Tory Party. Revoking A50 would obliterate the Tory Party and so that is not going to happen before April 12th.

Personally I realise I need to know more before I can make a judgement - but it seems clear to me leaving April 12th with a NO DEAL is something I would very much not want to happen.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 10:16 pm

All four options rejected this evening. Nick Boles leaves the Tories.

Guy Verhofstadt says a 'hard Brexit' is nearly inevitable, and calls Wednesday the last chance for the UK to break the deadlock.

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 12:45 am

Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:
Duty281 wrote:‘A million strong’ - already debunked. And those who support ‘Leave’ had two separate marches/protests.

Didn't see any of the thugs in the remain march, did you?

It's two separate Britains.

Well, if you want to use the actions of a tiny minority to define 17.4 million people, and fall headfirst into the old guilt-by-association fallacy whilst you're at it, be my guest. thumbsup

I don't. I'm saying that there was no trouble at all in the 1m+ march of remainers and there was trouble in the comparatively tiny leavers march.

But if you want to brush that trouble off as being insignificant, be my guest. thumbsup

There was no 1m+ march of Remainers - if you need to lie to support your point, it proves that you have little argument to make.

If I change the number, will you engage in the point I was making? Or will you continue to run away from it?

Perhaps, but you're going to have to make a point first.

Rolling Eyes

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 9:15 am

Duty281 wrote:All four options rejected this evening. Nick Boles leaves the Tories.

Guy Verhofstadt says a 'hard Brexit' is nearly inevitable, and calls Wednesday the last chance for the UK to break the deadlock.
It's not a good look, is it?

The wet weekends talking about the additional referendum option 'coming out on top' need a good slap. The pipsqueaks talking as if an indicative vote with a single figure majority is somehow a mandate/good thing should also be slapped.
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Post by JuliusHMarx on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 9:20 am

The EU will cave in to avoid a no deal Brexit - everyone knows that, 'cos Bojo and David Davis told us so, and they've got everything else right so far.

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Post by Beer on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 10:13 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Duty281 wrote:All four options rejected this evening. Nick Boles leaves the Tories.

Guy Verhofstadt says a 'hard Brexit' is nearly inevitable, and calls Wednesday the last chance for the UK to break the deadlock.
It's not a good look, is it?

The wet weekends talking about the additional referendum option 'coming out on top' need a good slap. The pipsqueaks talking as if an indicative vote with a single figure majority is somehow a mandate/good thing should also be slapped.

101 people weren't present or abstained, which I think is a shame. If everyone voted, we'd either have a clear majority, or a clearer idea of what the next steps are.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 10:31 am

Ministers were asked to abstain..

Not sure why more don't resign....May and Corbyn will be gone soon.

Melanie Onn resigned from the SC last week and Boles has just quit the Tories..

Staggered there isn't more.

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Post by rodders on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 10:51 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Duty281 wrote:All four options rejected this evening. Nick Boles leaves the Tories.

Guy Verhofstadt says a 'hard Brexit' is nearly inevitable, and calls Wednesday the last chance for the UK to break the deadlock.
It's not a good look, is it?

The wet weekends talking about the additional referendum option 'coming out on top' need a good slap. The pipsqueaks talking as if an indicative vote with a single figure majority is somehow a mandate/good thing should also be slapped.

It looks like a majority will be there for a Customs Union, which the SNP didn't back ysterday but if it is amended to keep Scotland (or the UK) in the single market then they will, so a hybrid of this and Bowles deal looks the way forward and will get a majority on Wednesday. I suspect next week this will be back as a bill that will be amended to include a public vote on it.

In return Labour will back the ability of parliament to revoke article 50 if the EU don't agree to an extension or the proposal.
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Post by Beer on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 11:04 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ministers were asked to abstain..

Not sure why more don't resign....May and Corbyn will be gone soon.

Melanie Onn resigned from the SC last week and Boles has just quit the Tories..

Staggered there isn't more.

I personally don't think they should be allowed to abstain. Not paid or elected by their constituents to sit on the fence.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 11:10 am

Beer wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Duty281 wrote:All four options rejected this evening. Nick Boles leaves the Tories.

Guy Verhofstadt says a 'hard Brexit' is nearly inevitable, and calls Wednesday the last chance for the UK to break the deadlock.
It's not a good look, is it?

The wet weekends talking about the additional referendum option 'coming out on top' need a good slap. The pipsqueaks talking as if an indicative vote with a single figure majority is somehow a mandate/good thing should also be slapped.

101 people weren't present or abstained, which I think is a shame. If everyone voted, we'd either have a clear majority, or a clearer idea of what the next steps are.
It is a shame, I agree, but I don't see that them being present and/or voting would clear things up. Likely just have higher absolute numbers, but the same outcomes/margins.
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Post by Hero on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 11:12 am

Instead of a yes or no vote it should be a ranked vote with those with highest votes then taken into a further vote.


Last edited by Hero on Tue 02 Apr 2019, 11:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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