Scarlets V Edinburgh

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Post by RDW on Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:15 pm

Scarlets

SCARLETS: Leigh Halfpenny; Johnny McNicholl, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Steff Evans; Dan Jones, Gareth Davies; Rob Evans, Ken Owens (capt), Samson Lee, Lewis Rawlins, Steve Cummins, Will Boyde, James Davies, Uzair Cassiem.

Reps: Marc Jones, Wyn Jones, Werner Kruger, Josh Helps, Josh Macleod, Kieran Hardy, Kieron Fonotia, Ioan Nicholas.

Unavailable because of injury

Ryan Elias (shoulder), Jake Ball (foot), Aaron Shingler (knee), Blade Thomson (concussion), Jonathan Evans (ankle), David Bulbring (ankle), Angus O’Brien (knee), Corey Baldwin (ankle), Tom Phillips (shoulder), Dafydd Hughes (shoulder)



Edinburgh


Edinburgh team to face Scarlets at Parc y Scarlets in the Guinness PRO14 on Saturday 6 April (kick-off 6.45pm) – live on Premier Sports



15. Darcy Graham (21)


14. Damien Hoyland (61)
13. Mark Bennett (17)
12. Chris Dean (85)
11. Duhan van der Merwe (38)


10. Jaco van der Walt (37)
9. Henry Pyrgos (21)


1. Pierre Schoeman (20)
2. Stuart McInally (134) CAPTAIN
3. WP Nel (131)
4. Ben Toolis (107)
5. Grant Gilchrist (134)
6. John Barclay (2)
7. Hamish Watson (97)
8. Viliame Mata (57)


Replacements: 16. Ross Ford (196); 17. Rory Sutherland (73); 18. Simon Berghan (64); 19. Callum Hunter-Hill (16) 20. Magnus Bradbury (62); 21. Charlie Shiel (4); 22. Simon Hickey (17); 23. Matt Scott (81)

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Post by RDW on Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:16 pm

Business as usual for Edinburgh with the only change coming from JJ being injured. I'm amazed Watson is fit - he didn't look good when he went off injured.

Strange to see Sutherland in instead of Dell and no mention of injury - I wonder if Dell isn't reacting well to only getting 4 minutes at the end of games?

Crazy that there's no place for Jamie Ritchie in the team!

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Post by BigGee on Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:40 pm

Cockers just does not know or get the concept of rotation and it may well come back to bite him at some stage, if it has not done so already. Some of his players are going to get very feed up with the situation.

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Post by RDW on Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:48 pm

I suspect that is going to be the team he picks for the rest of the season, barring injury, especially with a week's break between Ulster and Glasgow.

The pack will have been pretty beaten up after Munster - I don't think we would have lost much bringing in Ritchie for Watson or starting Dell, and they would have been hell bent on putting in a good performance and brought fresh energy.

Worth pointing out that Schoeman hasn't had a public fallout from his stupid penalty.

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Post by RDW on Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:50 pm

As for the game, Edinburgh's pack is better and full of internationals but Scarlets' backs are better and full of internationals - we know what Edinburgh's tactics are going to be!

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Post by EST on Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:22 pm

BigGee wrote:Cockers just does not know or get the concept of rotation and it may well come back to bite him at some stage, if it has not done so already. Some of his players are going to get very feed up with the situation.

It's a strange one - especially when the reserve options (especially in the pack) are of such a high quality, you would lose very little starting Ritchie and Dell.

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Post by BigGee on Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:25 pm

Its actually a pretty decent Scarlets side, who have not been punching their weight this season.

Their season is pretty much over if they lose this one, as is Edinburgh's, so a lot to play for.

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Post by tigertattie on Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:10 pm

Ritchie not being on the bench isnt surprising given the quality of the backrow. Also if Mata goes off, Maggie comes on, if JB goes off, Maggie comes on, if watson goes off, JB moves to 7 and Maggie comes on.

It will be ver interesting to see what happens with Ritchie or Bradbury after the world cup. I really can see one of them being shuntted along the M8 to give the Weege a bit of qaulity in the backrow.
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Post by BigGee on Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:00 pm

tigertattie wrote:Ritchie not being on the bench isnt surprising given the quality of the backrow. Also if Mata goes off, Maggie comes on, if JB goes off, Maggie comes on, if watson goes off, JB moves to 7 and Maggie comes on.

It will be ver interesting to see what happens with Ritchie or Bradbury after the world cup. I really can see one of them being shuntted along the M8 to give the Weege a bit of qaulity in the backrow.

In a way, when you look at it like that, it has got to happen. Bradbury should be Scotland's number 8 going forward and he is getting 20 minutes off the bench most weeks. Cockers is never going to pick him over Mata. Ritchie, who could/should be going to the WC, not even getting a game. It is bonkers. Surely he needs to trade and get someone else who would strengthen the squad.

Cockers made exactly the same argument when he snaffled HP last season, I wonder if he realises that working for the SRU can be a two way street.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:48 pm

I look at it slightly differently, given after the world cup, Barclay & Mata will be in the final year of their contract, both of whom could therefore leave/retire at the end of next season. Also in theory these lads could all be away at the wc, so we'll need a bit more rotation.

It's entirely possible each player will get a decent amount of gametime next season....assuming cockers learns to rotate.

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:56 pm

Both Mata and Barclay have another year after that.

Barclay signed 3 years, but may morph into coaching at some stage during that.

Mata will surely stay till the death and Cockers will keep playing him! I am sure they will try and persued him to stay longer as well

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:18 pm

Chris Dean drops out due to injury, so the long awaited Scott - Bennett combo finally gets a run out. A chance for the two of them to show they should be in the Scotland conversation.

George Taylor comes on to the bench.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:44 pm

The difference could be the back-row, usually an area of strength for Welsh teams but not on this occasion for the Scarlets. Barclay, Watson, Mata looks like a good unit.

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:48 pm

Scarlets chucking it around like a game of sevens, perfect weather for it

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:50 pm

3 and a half mins for the first attacking set from Scarlets, going to be some tired bodies out there if it carries on at this pace

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:51 pm

Barclay gets his first turnover, much to the disgust of the locals!

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:57 pm

7-0 Scarlets

Great first try from a Halfpenny break

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:13 pm

Bit to easy for Scarlets, Edinburgh, bit like Ulster last night, look like the tank is a bit empty

12-0 Scarlets

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:15 pm

Two tries, two forward passes. I’m not an Edinburgh supporter but they are getting nothing from the officials so far.

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:28 pm

Scarlets get a yellow for killing the ball on the line

For once, Edinburgh decide to kick for goal, the VDW misses!

Maybe it is not their night!

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:30 pm

Odd call that one as their driving lineout is good.

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:31 pm

Should have taken the scrum. Either 7 man or one less in the backs. Some strange calls from the captain.

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:32 pm

Ooft forgot it came from a lineout

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Post by EWT Spoons on Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:33 pm

BigGee wrote:Both Mata and Barclay have another year after that.

Barclay signed 3 years, but may morph into coaching at some stage during that.

Mata will surely stay till the death and Cockers will keep playing him! I am sure  they will try and persued him to stay longer as well

Has barclay signed an extension? He was only signed on a 2 year deal initially.

Fair point on mata though, however if he has a strong wc he could be bought out of his contract.

Either way I can't see either Ritchie or Bradbury going as they should get plenty of games next season.

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Post by tigertattie on Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:20 pm

Can someone explain what on earth is going on!!!

Have scarlets imploded?
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Post by Heuer27 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:37 pm

Not really sure. They decided to play in the second half presumably after a rocket at half time. Whatever happened it worked cause they run out worthy winners in the end.

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Post by BigGee on Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:38 pm

Blimmey, I went to work at HT and did not see that final score comming.

That is some impressive win, bearing in mind that they were not in the game in the first half, especially backing up after the efforts of last weekend.

Looking forward to watching the second half tomorrow

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:45 pm

Duncan Hodge is interesting on tv now. He said they didn’t play barring Mish and Darcy in first half. They were told to go out do the basics and show a bit of heart and desire.

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Post by TJ on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:16 pm

Anyone got a clue why Scarlets didn't bomb Graham all match?  Seems an obvious ploy with a 5'7" tyro FB.

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Post by Heuer27 on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:38 pm

Tbf , every time he got the ball, he terrorised the Scarlets defence. Not seen his stats but I would almost guarantee that he made most metres tonight. He was very dangerous ball in hand. With VDM and Hoyland on the wings too , I don’t see many teams kicking the ball to that back three. They all have the ability to really punish teams given some space.

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Post by tigertattie on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:15 pm

See Leinster not giving a toss about winning again

Bit of a shame. We could had done with them winning
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Post by RDW on Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:22 pm

I was at a wedding yesterday so missed this - sounds like a bit of a smash and grab. Not that I care - it was a huge win! 

Who were the standout performers? Sounds like Darcy is causing carnage at 15 and enjoying the extra space it offers. Maybe it is actually his best position! It also sounds like we continue to kick to corners and not get anywhere with it.

Was very important to get the win as Scarlets are likely to get 10 points from their next to games. Beat Ulster and we should finish ahead of Scarlets, then we'll be playing against Glasgow for 2nd or 3rd place. The Treviso late draw was very frustrating! Our destiny is in our hands though - win the next 2 and we're in the playoffs, maybe even at home.

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Post by jimbopip on Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:04 pm

Flounder Boy, I think Scarlets are pretty much guaranteed two wins, so 53-55 points for them.

Benetton finish at Zebra, so 56-57 points for them. They have Munster next week , possibly even Munster seconds/thirds so might take something from that too.

Luvvies have Ulster then the Once And Future Champions. A win against Ulster puts you on 55-56 points. Of course IF we beat the Ladyboys and Benetton beat Munster then we are conference winners and Scarlets are out of the running BUT Ulster have a trip to the Ladyboys who could be "resting" their first XV in preparation for a European final.

Ladyboys first. Benetton second. Luvvies and The Stuart Hogg Appreciation Society tie for third.

I think Glasgow will win their conference. Munster second and the Craggy Islanders third.

Ulster and Luvvies tie on 59 points. Ulster concede rather than travel to Glasgow again. Luvvies beat Glasgow for the 937 time in succession and beat Ladyboys development XV 6-3 in the final.

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Post by miaow on Sun Apr 07, 2019 3:06 pm

Fully deserved win by Edinburgh.

That said - and not for the first time this season - with Scarlets having scored 2 tries and leading relatively comfortably, they should have kicked on and not only won, but got the 4 try bonus point.

Obviously things aren't going well there, and the lack of power to get over the gainline is creating a knock on effect of poor decisions, poor execution, and dreadful confidence from the 9 to the 10 and then the outside backs as well.

Thought Edinburgh's 10, van der Merwe, and Graham looked decent for them. Watson typically dangerous but, by and large, I thought the Scarlets had the better of the back row battle.

Disappointing end to the Scarlets' season but, ultimately, a deserved finish outside the Champions Cup places. They've lost too many close '8 pointer' games now against Edinburgh, Ulster, Treviso, and then looking across at the Blues and Ospreys in the other division as well. Failure to go for/score 4 tries has also hampered them.

Edinburgh did the basics well, and let the home team fall on their own sword, and won. That's not to criticise them at all, it's just that the players in the Scarlets team - as we saw for much of the first half - are so much better than they've been all season, that that performance should not have been enough to beat them. Yet time and time again that's all teams have to do - and worryingly, it's happening at home now, as we've seen a two year hom record washed away in a matter of weeks in embarrassing fashion. It's particularly worrying when so many Scarlets players also make up key positions for Wales: seeing Ken Owens get a yellow card and yet again raging at the world is not a good sign. Nor is the general lack of leadership, control, and impetus in the team when they're on the back foot.

It's felt like a long, slow goodbye to Pivac. The decision to make him Wales coach - and then announce it so early - has had a big impact on the club this season. He's lost the dressing room and is isolating players like Steff Evans and the 10s: selecting Parkes at 10 against the Ospreys in game the Scarlets could have easily won was insane. I can't help but feel Pivac's back to where he started in the role, which is going back to basics in a hyper-conservative way to try and stop the rot - which means there hasn't been all that much progression whatsoever. It's so easy in sport to 'clam up' and try to protect what you've got or play it safe, and half the time I feel the Scarlets are doing that in an ineffective way, with the other half being running it wide off slow ball, to very mixed success. Sometimes it takes a bit of risk - I look at Jordan Henderson's goal against Southampton, for instance, and that's what sport's about: a 1 goal lead, last 5 minutes, huge pressure, it would be easy to sit back and protect the midfield. But he breaks downfield at pace, exposes the defence, and in doing so is the only player who could have scored a goal. With a good assist he guarantees the win and kills the opposition's fight to put them under pressure late on as they know they're beaten. The exact same thing applies in rugby, yet the Scarlets (and Wales, actually, when at their worst) really do not know how to go for the jugular, and don't understand that sometimes it takes a Steff Evans type player taking risks, using his stepping abilities to get down field, and get that 3rd and then 4th try to not just help the league table, but also kill the game before the final 10 minutes. It's the biggest different between SH and NH rugby in my opinion - the acceptance that every game must be an 80 minute dogfight rather than trying to actually take risks with your talent and field position, or create space with ball in hand more often, accepting that the other team will score a try or two - but if you score 4 or 5, it's a risk worth taking. Only England, really, in the 6Ns seem to be bucking that trend, killing games early against the weaker teams with high scores, and conceding soft tries/having poor tackle stats in doing so. But even they're having very mixed success with it - for every Italy or France game, where it's effectively over as a contest after 20 minutes, there's the odd Scotland game thrown in there. When the Scarlets have been at their best - when they won the league and got to the latter stages in Europe - they got there by playing this brand of rugby. Pivac going into his shell has ultimately not helped - only the Munster game at home stands out as one they've ground out by playing limited rugby. They've certainly lost more than they've won playing this way.

Anyway, for the Scarlets, no doubt some shocking luck with injuries has played its part, as has the recruitment issues - losing Barclay, Beirne at the breakdown and also losing their leadership in the squad. The replacements have nearly all suffered with injuries, not least Blade Thompson, but also you look at Aled Davies and Scott Williams and have to ask whether they should have really fought to hold on to them. It's the worst season I've known for injuries and partly you just say 'oh, bad luck' but it's definitely an indication of the fact the modern game is too...dangerous? Unsustainable? Not sure, but there's something clearly wrong with it that limiting subsitutions/number of games played would help solve. Discussion for another time. But one thing that hasn't really been touched upon to the same extent as injuries and recruitment is the repeatedly poor officiating in the league (and first 2 rounds of Europe) that have cost the Scarlets. Most glaringly with decisions like out in Treviso, where the best angles showing a blatant double movement a week after Mako Vunipola's identical disallowed try v Ireland occurred, are 'withheld' by the TV producer until the try is awarded. There are so many others as well that have helped turn games that the Scarlets were winning, or at least where it's close on the scoreboard - and yesterday was no different with 1/2P's 'neck roll' that wasn't. All that added together and it's a perfect storm for a team underperforming hugely - and they're going to finish 5th in the league, which is sadly what they deserve.

One thing that should have been obvious to both sets of fans was the atrocious officiating. I felt Clancy was unfairly favouring the Scarlets in the first half, and then Edinburgh in the second, but in reality it was just incompetence from decision to decision, and that's just the way the penalties fell. So many offsides missed, strange interpretation of the breakdown, forward passes (then again watching Super Rugby and maybe this is just what we have to accept from now on) - the list was endless really, but he never seems to have any sort of consistency or control over a game.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:44 pm

The trio of Schoeman, Van Der Walt, and Van Der Merwe (previously unbeknownst to me his brother is the hooker who recently fought Schalk Brits) from SA is pretty handy, and are available all year. Some good finds there. I can think of at least 3 Welsh regions who need a good LH and fly-half. Both the back in particular look as if they could go on to step up and play for SA. I hope they're at least considered before looking for caps elsewhere.

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Post by jimbopip on Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:54 pm

miaow wrote:Fully deserved win by Edinburgh.


One thing that should have been obvious to both sets of fans was the atrocious officiating. I felt Clancy was unfairly favouring the Scarlets in the first half, and then Edinburgh in the second, but in reality it was just incompetence from decision to decision, and that's just the way the penalties fell. So many offsides missed, strange interpretation of the breakdown, forward passes (then again watching Super Rugby and maybe this is just what we have to accept from now on) - the list was endless really, but he never seems to have any sort of consistency or control over a game.


His parents knew what they were doing when they named him Clownshoes Clancy.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:56 pm

Scarlets' final season under Pivac isn't a good sign for Wales. Admittedly I can't remember seeing a casualty list for a club team akin to the one Scarlets have/have had this season. Lee (in and out a lot), Ball, Shingler, Thomson, Davies, Boyd, Patchell, Halfpenny. They also lost some other locks during the season, and like miaow alluded to they didn't manage recruitment very well after losing Beirne and Barclay. That's most of a teams ball carriers and breakdown specialists, so I actually think they've done moderately well considering. They can only get better next season.

Edinburgh have been very good all season both in Europe and the domestic league. Cockerill is doing a great job.

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Post by miaow on Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:29 pm

jimbopip wrote:
miaow wrote:Fully deserved win by Edinburgh.

 
One thing that should have been obvious to both sets of fans was the atrocious officiating. I felt Clancy was unfairly favouring the Scarlets in the first half, and then Edinburgh in the second, but in reality it was just incompetence from decision to decision, and that's just the way the penalties fell. So many offsides missed, strange interpretation of the breakdown, forward passes (then again watching Super Rugby and maybe this is just what we have to accept from now on) - the list was endless really, but he never seems to have any sort of consistency or control over a game.


His parents knew what they were doing when they named him Clownshoes Clancy.

I'm always amazed to see that he's still refereeing. He doesn't do international games anymore (does he!?!?!) so it's a nasty shock. The man's velcro, seems to have been around for ages as well, as long as Wayne Barnes it feels like.

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Post by RDW on Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:50 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:The trio of Schoeman, Van Der Walt, and Van Der Merwe (previously unbeknownst to me his brother is the hooker who recently fought Schalk Brits) from SA is pretty handy, and are available all year. Some good finds there. I can think of at least 3 Welsh regions who need a good LH and fly-half. Both the back in particular look as if they could go on to step up and play for SA. I hope they're at least considered before looking for caps elsewhere.

Both backs will qualify for Scotland soon - VDW for next 6N and VDM next summer. To be fair to both, neither were really getting anywhere in their careers before they moved to Edinburgh.

Schoeman is 5 years but has said he wants to play for Scotland - apparently there were murnours in SA when he left as  he was tipped as getting capped by SA.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:43 pm

I didn’t know VDW had been around for that long, but a good career move by him if he’s come on at Edinburgh. Good for Scotland if they pick them up, not so good for SA who continue to haemorrhage players to other nations.

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Post by RDW on Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:57 pm

VDW was brought in out the blue as emergency 10 cover 2 November's ago, and was a huge part of how we qualified for Europe last sesson. Everyone thought this season Simon Hickey - who has great pedigree - would be our first choice but VDW quickly won the battle and has started most of the season.

He'll be a good option for Scotland - has natural attacking instincts but also has a solid all round game.

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Scarlets V Edinburgh Empty Re: Scarlets V Edinburgh

Post by EST on Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:12 am

I'm not quite sure how Edinburgh won that, they were rubbish in the first half and the Scarlet's were playing well and looked in control. In the second, Edinbrugh cut out the mistakes and just ground them down, but in no way did they do anything special - a really strange game.

I still think that Cockerill is going to pay for his lack of rotation, especially in the pack - Schoeman and McInally didn't come off until the 70th odd minute and i'm not sure if Toolis or Gilchrist came off at all? These players are going to be flogged going into the Glasgow game, assuming they get past Ulster.

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Scarlets V Edinburgh Empty Re: Scarlets V Edinburgh

Post by RDW on Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:17 am

I completely agree he needs to rotate more, but to be fair there's a week off after Ulster.

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Scarlets V Edinburgh Empty Re: Scarlets V Edinburgh

Post by EWT Spoons on Mon Apr 08, 2019 9:49 am

I know this might be wishful thinking, but I can see Cockers rotating more next season. He must have realised how exposed his team has been during international windows and how the players coming in have been undercooked.

We just need to make sure we don’t struggle from the start of the season like we did this year. Assuming we get off to a decent start it should be easier to bring players into the side and get into a steady rotation. Also factoring in that with the WC we’ll be without a number of players anyway so our “squad” players are going to need to step up in the first few rounds.

I can’t see Cockers rotating at all for the last few games. Each game now is like a cup final for us and with only two games left (of the regular season) he’ll play the first choice players as much as possible.

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Scarlets V Edinburgh Empty Re: Scarlets V Edinburgh

Post by EST on Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:15 am

RDW wrote:I completely agree he needs to rotate more, but to be fair there's a week off after Ulster.

Oh aye, of course they do! Less of an issue now, hopefully they can back it up against Ulster - another huge game, but Edinburgh go into it with good momentum.

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Scarlets V Edinburgh Empty Re: Scarlets V Edinburgh

Post by RDW on Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:17 am

If Ulster play as badly as they did against Glasgow that would be excellent.

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Scarlets V Edinburgh Empty Re: Scarlets V Edinburgh

Post by Brendan on Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:24 am

EST wrote:
RDW wrote:I completely agree he needs to rotate more, but to be fair there's a week off after Ulster.

Oh aye, of course they do! Less of an issue now, hopefully they can back it up against Ulster - another huge game, but Edinburgh go into it with good momentum.

I can understand last year as they were doing amazing and the players probably wanted to play more because they were actually winning.

This year the squad looks stronger so should have managed to work a play or two in each week.

Saying that Edinburgh have given a win to each of the bottom teams so maybe the squad isn't as strong as e think.

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