Edinburgh vs Ulster Fri 12th April

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 9:11 am

Edinburgh Vs Ulster
Location: BT Murrayfield
KO: 19.35
TV: Premier Sport & Eir Sport (same company, right?)

Another big game as the league comes to a close, two teams playing for a top 3/4 spot.  Ahead of this game, Ulster sit 2nd on 54 points, Edinburgh in 4th on 51.  A win here would guarantee Ulster a top 3 place.

Last time these two teams met in the league there was only 1pt in it, I wouldn't be surprised if the game on fri is equally tight.  Ulster will be wanting to bounce back from the defeat to Glasgow with a win, Edinburgh will be looking to build on the 2nd half performance against Scarlets.

Edinburgh team is generally easy to pick as we only rotate for injuries.  With that in mind here is my predicted team:


Shoe
Rambo
Nel (although Berghan can could himself unlucky not to start)
Toolis
Gilco
Barclay (assuming his injury against Scarlets wasn’t serious)
Watson
Mata
Pyrgos
Jaco
Duhan
Scott
Bennett
Hoyland
Darcy

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Post by EST on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 9:19 am

I imagine that will be the starting line-up, although I think that Berghan deserves a start and I thought Bradbury looked very good when he came on - I might even be tempted to bench Mata and have him come on for the last 30.

I know is probably a bit fanciful, but i'd also really like to see Duhan VDM get involved a bit more - he is such a potent threat and all he does these days is stand out on the wing and chase box-kicks, why don't they get him running off ten every now and again?

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 9:38 am


We seem to be using Duhan in the same way as we used Visser. However, he was looking for work a lot more when we played Leinster a couple of weeks ago. He randomly kept venturing into the middle of the park looking for the ball. Given he’s not done it since, I can only assume it wasn’t regarded as a success.

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Post by EST on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 9:50 am

Yeah, earlier in the season the tactic seemed to be, pass the ball to Duhan. Now, I'm not sure I can remember him actually touching the ball against Ulster.

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Post by carpet baboon on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:09 am

I honestly thought you were having a conversation with yourself.

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:13 am

It depends on the tactics you are looking to follow.

At the moment, the plan is very much to truck it up the middle with the forwards which means you want to try and stretch the defensive line to expose gaps. As Flounder will tell you, a winger standing out on the wing isn't really doing nothing. He is in fact (allegedly) holding his opposite number to be out wide which means the opposition line as a whole stretches out to fill gaps the width of the pitch.

The simple fact that a winger can be contributing to the game simply by standing as far away from everyone else as they possibly can just illustrates how lazy these guys are!
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Post by EST on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:22 am

tigertattie wrote:It depends on the tactics you are looking to follow.

At the moment, the plan is very much to truck it up the middle with the forwards which means you want to try and stretch the defensive line to expose gaps. As Flounder will tell you, a winger standing out on the wing isn't really doing nothing. He is in fact (allegedly) holding his opposite number to be out wide which means the opposition line as a whole stretches out to fill gaps the width of the pitch.

The simple fact that a winger can be contributing to the game simply by standing as far away from everyone else as they possibly can just illustrates how lazy these guys are!

Yeah, Cockers has certainly reverted to just about the most basic game plan you can have - probably cause he knows his team are under the pump and its what he knows best.

Even if you don't want to go wide (literally at all), I still don't understand why they don't use VDM off a first phase move - he'd be effective even if he took a simple short ball off ten and trucked it up - he is 6'4", massive and absolutely rapid.

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Post by EST on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:23 am

carpet baboon wrote:I honestly thought you were having a conversation with yourself.

My modus operandi most of the time.

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Post by RDW on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:35 am

EWT Spoons wrote:
We seem to be using Duhan in the same way as we used Visser.  However, he was looking for work a lot more when we played Leinster a couple of weeks ago.  He randomly kept venturing into the middle of the park looking for the ball.  Given he’s not done it since, I can only assume it wasn’t regarded as a success.

He genuinly didn't touch the ball that game! His stats were

Passes - 0
Metres run - 0
Tackles - 3 (1 missed)

He's certianly been much less effective than the early to middle part of the season.

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Post by RDW on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:41 am

As for the game itself, we say it every week but I think a little bit of rotation would be hugely beneficial. The team was looking flat against Scarlets and we got out of jail there - we can't afford a similarly flat performance on Friday. Some of the players have put in huge shifts lately and will be mentally and physically fatigued.

I don't know what's happened with Dell but he should be chomping at the bit if given a start. Barclay was pretty beaten up so I would give him the week off and bring Ritchie straight in - he is going to be desperate for a game.

There's no secret what our gameplan is going to be - we are going to milk penalties in the scrum and box kick the crap out of the ball. If Glasgow's pack can demolish Ulster what we do to them should be X-rated!

How were Scott and Bennett against Scarlets?

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:44 am

RDW wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:
We seem to be using Duhan in the same way as we used Visser.  However, he was looking for work a lot more when we played Leinster a couple of weeks ago.  He randomly kept venturing into the middle of the park looking for the ball.  Given he’s not done it since, I can only assume it wasn’t regarded as a success.

He genuinly didn't touch the ball that game! His stats were

Passes - 0
Metres run - 0
Tackles - 3 (1 missed)

He's certianly been much less effective than the early to middle part of the season.

So a professional winger did hee haw bar make 2 tackles in a game! How do these boys justify their salaries?

It's high time rugby looked at these workshy show ponies and just got rid of them for all the use they are! Now I'd not want to go to 13 men like they do in league, so I'd say get rid of the two wingers but then have an extra centre to keep the number to 14 men.

#GetWingersOutOfRugby
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Post by RDW on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 10:51 am

I did find it funny seeing him in a picture with Nel after the game – Nel looked absolutely buggered having been in a brutal physical battle, VDM looked like he’d been sitting in the stands all game (might as well have been!)

Thing is, rugby is for all shapes and sizes and wingers are an important part of the game – let’s not forget how many key tries he’s scored this season, a lot were pretty much individual efforts out of nowhere. If we had 15 second rows the game would be incredibly dull.

We have definitely reigned in our tactics since the 6N though – we were playing some great attacking rugby over Christmas and in the key European games, but that has completely disappeared post 6N when the pressure has been on. VDM is paying the price for that as he’s just not getting the opportunities.

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Post by EST on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 11:09 am

RDW wrote:I did find it funny seeing him in a picture with Nel after the game – Nel looked absolutely buggered having been in a brutal physical battle, VDM looked like he’d been sitting in the stands all game (might as well have been!)

Thing is, rugby is for all shapes and sizes and wingers are an important part of the game – let’s not forget how many key tries he’s scored this season, a lot were pretty much individual efforts out of nowhere. If we had 15 second rows the game would be incredibly dull.

We have definitely reigned in our tactics since the 6N though – we were playing some great attacking rugby over Christmas and in the key European games, but that has completely disappeared post 6N when the pressure has been on. VDM is paying the price for that as he’s just not getting the opportunities.

Cockers has properly battened down the hatches, time will tell if its a good tactic I suppose.

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Post by RDW on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 11:19 am

If we beat Ulster we should be guaranteed at least 4th place, which will put us in the Champions Cup playoff, probably against the Blues with total points deciding who is at home (we're pretty close).

Unfortunately I think Glasgow will be needing something from the final 1872 game so that could be a pretty brutal game!

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 12:42 pm

RDW wrote:If we beat Ulster we should be guaranteed at least 4th place, which will put us in the Champions Cup playoff, probably against the Blues with total points deciding who is at home (we're pretty close).

Unfortunately I think Glasgow will be needing something from the final 1872 game so that could be a pretty brutal game!

I do not fear this game. We're on a streak and Glasgow are a mentally fragile team with a god awful pack. Edinburgh to win by strangling the weegies (not in a john Haynes on Ronan O'Gara way, but like a Saracens on Glasgow way)

Bear in mind that this silly notion of Derbies for the last games of the season, we could be in a position where an Edinburgh win with Glasgow picking up either a try or losing BP could be the ideal mutually benefitial outcome which is entirely workable! Hug
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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 09 Apr 2019, 1:26 pm

RDW wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:
We seem to be using Duhan in the same way as we used Visser.  However, he was looking for work a lot more when we played Leinster a couple of weeks ago.  He randomly kept venturing into the middle of the park looking for the ball.  Given he’s not done it since, I can only assume it wasn’t regarded as a success.

He genuinly didn't touch the ball that game! His stats were

Passes - 0
Metres run - 0
Tackles - 3 (1 missed)

He's certianly been much less effective than the early to middle part of the season.

Possibly wasn’t the Leinster game then. Certainly in one game in the last couple of months, he came looking for work, it must have been prior to Leinster as it hasn’t happened since. Either way it wasn’t a hit and it’s not been replicated.

It’s hard to be critical of those type of stats though, as (I think) you have mentioned, our game plan has gone from reasonably expansive to being one dimensional at best. As a result he’s not seeing much, or any, of the ball.

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Post by RDW on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:06 pm

No surprises from Edinburgh in the selection - Barclay was pretty banged up last week so not surprised to see him on the bench. I would have brought in Ritchie but there you go.



Scotland internationalist Magnus Bradbury has been named at blindside flanker for Edinburgh's crucial Guinness PRO14 showdown with Ulster at BT Murrayfield on Friday night (12 April, kick-off 7.35pm).

The back-row replaces John Barclay – who drops to the bench – in the only alteration to the starting XV that claimed a valuable away win against Scarlets last weekend.

Ahead of this weekend’s highly anticipated Conference B encounter, Head Coach Richard Cockerill, said: “We’ve got to win. It’s the same as last week. If we don’t, we’re relying on other results and miracles. We’ve just got to keep winning.

“Although Ulster were beaten by Glasgow, they were extremely good against Leinster the week before and they should have won. They’ve had a tough run in. They played in Dublin, Glasgow and now they come to us.

“We’ll put out our best team and we’ll both go as hard as we can to try and win. They’ve got a lot of quality, but we’ve got some pretty good players too.”

An unchanged back-three sees Darcy Graham make his third consecutive start at fullback, with Duhan van der Merwe and Damien Hoyland named on the wings.

Matt Scott – who grabbed his second try of the season in the win over Scarlets – is partnered by Mark Bennett in midfield, while last weekend’s man of the match, Jaco van der Walt, once again links up with scrum-half Henry Pyrgos at half-back.

An unaltered front-row sees captain Stuart McInally pack down alongside props Pierre Schoeman and WP Nel, with experienced lock pairing Grant Gilchrist and Ben Toolis once again selected in the second-row.

The inclusion of Bradbury is the only alteration to an otherwise unchanged back-row as Hamish Watson and Fijian internationalist Viliame Mata complete the pack.

Elsewhere, club centurion and Scotland’s record cap holder Ross Ford is named among the replacements and if involved will make what could be his last appearance at BT Murrayfield after it was announced this week that the hooker will leave the club at the end of the season.



Edinburgh team to face Ulster at BT Murrayfield in the Guinness PRO14 on Friday 12 April (kick-off 7.35pm) – live on Premier Sports



15. Darcy Graham (22)



14. Damien Hoyland (62)

13. Mark Bennett (18)

12. Matt Scott (82)

11. Duhan van der Merwe (39)



10. Jaco van der Walt (38)

9. Henry Pyrgos (22)



1. Pierre Schoeman (21)

2. Stuart McInally (135) CAPTAIN

3. WP Nel (132)

4. Ben Toolis (108)

5. Grant Gilchrist (135)

6. Magnus Bradbury (63)

7. Hamish Watson (98)

8. Viliame Mata (58)



Replacements; 16. Ross Ford (197); 17. Allan Dell (59); 18. Simon Berghan (65); 19. Callum Hunter-Hill (16); 20. John Barclay (3); 21. Charlie Shiel (4); 22. Simon Hickey (17); 23. George Taylor (3)

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:16 pm

Ulster team to play Edinburgh, Guinness PRO14 Round 20, Friday 12th April 2019 at BT Murrayfield (7.35pm):
(15-9): J Stockdale; R Baloucoune, L Marshall, S McCloskey, R Lyttle; B Burns, J Cooney;
(1-8): E O’Sullivan, R Herring, M Moore, I Henderson (Capt), K Treadwell, N Timoney, J Murphy, M Coetzee;
Replacements: J Andrew, A Warwick, R Kane, A O’Connor, S Reidy, D Shanahan, P Nelson, A Kernohan.

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Post by RDW on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:17 pm

Stockdale at 15??

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Post by jimbopip on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:23 pm

C'mon the Luvvies Hug

Just remember the oath you swore

there is no Mrs Tattie which is why I've no wrinkles on my face and continue to have a happy outlook on life.
from the Luvvies Initiation Ceremony

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:25 pm

RDW wrote:Stockdale at 15??

Ludik, Addison, Lowry and Gilroy all injured

Finished at 15 last week, played a few games there for Ulster but played at U20s there

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Post by EST on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:26 pm

Mata v Coetzee is sure to be a genteel affair.

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Post by clivemcl on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:28 pm

Balacoune and Lyttle have coped well no doubt, but at this point in the season, we could really benefit from the return of Gilroy. Especially in terms of bench strength.

Stockdale at 15 kinda forced. Balacoune and Lyttle better options than Nelson and Kernohan, and he should cope grand at 15.
Ulster missing Addison, Ludik and Gilroy who are all players who would play 15 before Stockdale or any of the other available options.

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Post by RDW on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:30 pm

Given what Glasgow did to Ulster's scrum last week, you wonder what the Ulster front row are thinking about coming up against Schoeman, McInally and Nel....with Dell, Ford and Berghan to come off the bench! Edinburgh vs Ulster Fri 12th April 3933776953

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Post by marty2086 on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:34 pm

RDW wrote:Given what Glasgow did to Ulster's scrum last week, you wonder what the Ulster front row are thinking about coming up against Schoeman, McInally and Nel....with Dell, Ford and Berghan to come off the bench! Edinburgh vs Ulster Fri 12th April 3933776953

Ulster pretty much said they flogged the two props, EOS and Moore were running on empty last week. Could come down to whether they've recovered or not for this week

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Post by RDW on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:37 pm

To be fair there would be no shame in coming off second best against our scrum - they would be added to a long list of scalps taken this season.

The problem is we don't tend to do a massive amount for all of our scrum dominance - it's almost too much of a weapon. We win a scrum penalty, kick to the corner, then don't score!

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Post by clivemcl on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:38 pm

Yea RDW, short term memory. How did our front row get on the week before against Leinster? How well the Edinburgh front row get on against them comes down to the Ulster front row's recovery, not their ability.

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Post by tigertattie on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 12:47 pm

clivemcl wrote:Yea RDW, short term memory. How did our front row get on the week before against Leinster? How well the Edinburgh front row get on against them comes down to the Ulster front row's recovery, not their ability.

Yeah but Leinster's front row struggle against Edinburgh also.

The Edinburgh pack is probably one of the best in the league, in the UK even. Our issue is just that we don't like giving the backs the ball at the moment to score tries. We're also severely impacted by a complete lack of speed in delivery at the base of the ruck.

I can’t give you a score prediction or even who will win this game, but Edinburgh will have most possession and most territory and most likely will have scrum dominance. We'll just also be likely to run into brick wall after brick wall way day long!
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Post by carpet baboon on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 1:04 pm

marty2086 wrote:
RDW wrote:Stockdale at 15??

Ludik, Addison, Lowry and Gilroy all injured

Finished at 15 last week, played a few games there for Ulster but played at U20s there

And he scored some fantastic tries from 15 with the U20s

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Post by Hazel Sapling on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 1:37 pm

Strong Ulster XV that should be able to keep pace with Edinburgh early on. The pack is much better on paper than previous seasons.

I think the bench will likely be where Ulster struggle if Edinburgh actually use it or should injuries occur. Ulster maybe have one player on the bench I would say is an upgrade over the Edinburgh option (Shanahan over Shiel), whereas the front row and Barclay to come on are all seasoned internationals (and could viably be on the bench for Scotland vs Ireland in the RWC).

If Ulster start suffering injuries in the pack or get pulled into an attritional game they will not win. They need pieces of magic from that backline to put them over the top. A slog in the mud and that entire Edinburgh pack will take turns hammering away.

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Post by Standulstermen on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 2:06 pm

It’s just two well matched teams. Ulster stole the win at the start of the season iirc so it will be very interesting to see how they have evolved. You have to give Cockerill huge credit because you look at the Edinburgh team and it’s bloody strong.

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Post by RDW on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 2:10 pm

Standulstermen wrote:It’s just two well matched teams. Ulster stole the win at the start of the season iirc so it will be very interesting to see how they have evolved. You have to give Cockerill huge credit because you look at the Edinburgh team and it’s bloody strong.

Yeah due to an 80th minute homer touch judge offside decision that wasn't offside! Very Happy

Joking aside (although that was a really dodgy call), we really should have won that game - can add it to the list of games this season we really should have won.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 4:16 pm

At home Edinburgh are expected to win this fixture and the question is whether they get a TBP or not. They have all the momentum coming from the surprise comeback in Llanelli, and are a far more experienced squad to cope with the pressure in the run-in.
OTOH Ulster are coming off two deflating and fatiguing defeats with no prospect of fresh legs to inject energy into the team. With the European break next week they will give it everything (again), but anything other than a home win would be unexpected.

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Post by Standulstermen on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 4:56 pm

RDW wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:It’s just two well matched teams. Ulster stole the win at the start of the season iirc so it will be very interesting to see how they have evolved. You have to give Cockerill huge credit because you look at the Edinburgh team and it’s bloody strong.

Yeah due to an 80th minute homer touch judge offside decision that wasn't offside! Very Happy

Joking aside (although that was a really dodgy call), we really should have won that game - can add it to the list of games this season we really should have won.

Nah you’ve that one mixed up. It was the ref pinged someone at the ruck I think for not releasing. In fairness to him he had reffed it that way all night but I don’t agree with how he reffed it either.

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Post by RDW on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 5:01 pm

Ah I think you're right - it was one of those weird ones where we ripped the ball from the attacker but the ref said it was a ruck or something like that.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 5:18 pm

I'm not flushed with optimism for this game, that's usually when Ulster pull off an unexpected performance. I'd best forget that though or the pessimism will begin to disappear.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 9:35 am

RDW wrote:Ah I think you're right - it was one of those weird ones where we ripped the ball from the attacker but the ref said it was a ruck luck or something like that.

Fixed that!

Ulster have had more than their fair share of luck this season. Their European pool has rarely fallen better but eventually that luck ran out in the quarter final. In the League there were games early on they somehow got results that could just as easily have been losses - Scarlets, Edinburgh, Cheetahs, and Blues but that fortune is turning.

The relative lack of bonus points is indicative of a team that isn't close in defeat or dominant in victory. A fine margin win makes up for lost bonus points but hides the truth somewhat.
Some felt that Ulster were owed victory against Edinburgh after the loss at home the previous season, but it has always been the case that luck is at the heart of fine margins. Like their players Ulster's fortune could now be exhausted and a glance at the Tarot might suggest a reverse of last season's scoreline is on the cards.

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Post by RDW on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 9:45 am

As the old saying goes you make your own luck! The thing is we focus on that last minute decision (which was a very frustrating one) but we should have closed out the game better to not be in that position.

Edinburgh have done things the hard way this season - our A team have a reasonble win record but our B team during the international windows has lost to Zebre, Kings (a ridiculous game that we threw away), Dragons, Blues (despite being 17 points up in the 2nd half). The league is so tight that even if we had won the Kings and Blues games which we really should have won we would be sitting pretty in second place just now.

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 9:51 am

Ahhh it just wouldn’t be the same as an Edinburgh fan if we'd won a couple of the bonkers games earlier on.

It all adds to the drama running into the end of the season.

And Eejit will be on shortly to tell us that it all adds to the drama and then subsequent disappointment after abjectly failing to get to the playoffs unlike the once and future champions!
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Post by jimbopip on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 10:10 am

tigertattie wrote:
And Eejit will be on shortly to tell us that it all adds to the drama and then subsequent disappointment after abjectly failing to get to the playoffs unlike the once and future champions!

Can we archive this and bring it out next season? and the next? and the next? and..... Whistle

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Post by The Great Aukster on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 11:08 am

RDW wrote:As the old saying goes you make your own luck! The thing is we focus on that last minute decision (which was a very frustrating one) but we should have closed out the game better to not be in that position.

Edinburgh have done things the hard way this season - our A team have a reasonble win record but our B team during the international windows has lost to Zebre, Kings (a ridiculous game that we threw away), Dragons, Blues (despite being 17 points up in the 2nd half). The league is so tight that even if we had won the Kings and Blues games which we really should have won we would be sitting pretty in second place just now.

There's also a saying that things happen more by luck than judgement!

For example Pierre Schoeman was red carded for an elbow to Dan Leavy, yet some commentators like Jim Hamilton thought it was a legitimate attempt at a fend off. The ref's decision was largely down to the outcome rather than the act and outcomes are unpredictable. Pretty much every act by a player could have a range of outcomes and while the desired ones can be practised, the disastrous ones cannot be eliminated.

Ulster, Edinburgh and Benetton could all in theory either finish as high as 2nd or as low as fifth and that could still be determined by choosing which half to play the wind, or in other words the toss of a coin.

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 11:27 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
RDW wrote:As the old saying goes you make your own luck! The thing is we focus on that last minute decision (which was a very frustrating one) but we should have closed out the game better to not be in that position.

Edinburgh have done things the hard way this season - our A team have a reasonble win record but our B team during the international windows has lost to Zebre, Kings (a ridiculous game that we threw away), Dragons, Blues (despite being 17 points up in the 2nd half). The league is so tight that even if we had won the Kings and Blues games which we really should have won we would be sitting pretty in second place just now.

There's also a saying that things happen more by luck than judgement!

For example Pierre Schoeman was red carded for an elbow to Dan Leavy, yet some commentators like Jim Hamilton thought it was a legitimate attempt at a fend off. The ref's decision was largely down to the outcome rather than the act and outcomes are unpredictable. Pretty much every act by a player could have a range of outcomes and while the desired ones can be practised, the disastrous ones cannot be eliminated.

Ulster, Edinburgh and Benetton could all in theory either finish as high as 2nd or as low as fifth and that could still be determined by choosing which half to play the wind, or in other words the toss of a coin.

This is my biggest bug bear in rugby at the moment. I absolutely hate the outcome based way of dealing with instances.

Two scenes play out.

1. A player not seen as dirty goes up in the air with an opponent to try catch a high ball. The players collide. The opponent catches the ball but is the lighter of the two players and also jumps higher. The opponent ends up above the clean player and completely by accident ends up going over the clean players head resulting in the opponent crashing down to the pitch. If he manages to land on his feet, it’s just a penalty. If he lands on his back its yellow card, if he lands on his head it a red card.

A completely accidental collision ends up with three possible punishments depending on how the opponent lands.

2. A complete loose cannon, let’s call him Kyle, goes to actively forearm smash a scrum half in the face during a match where he's been wound up. When the loose cannon goes to do the smash, the wee scrum half is quicker and ducks below the smash and avoids getting his teeth knocked out and nose broken. Ref may give a penalty but may not give anything as "nothing happened"

The fact that the loose cannon actively attempted foul play but was too incompetent to pull it off he should get a harsher penalty to the clean player who accidentally toppled his opponent.

It's all a bit annoying!
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Post by RDW on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 12:39 pm

tigertattie wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
RDW wrote:As the old saying goes you make your own luck! The thing is we focus on that last minute decision (which was a very frustrating one) but we should have closed out the game better to not be in that position.

Edinburgh have done things the hard way this season - our A team have a reasonble win record but our B team during the international windows has lost to Zebre, Kings (a ridiculous game that we threw away), Dragons, Blues (despite being 17 points up in the 2nd half). The league is so tight that even if we had won the Kings and Blues games which we really should have won we would be sitting pretty in second place just now.

There's also a saying that things happen more by luck than judgement!

For example Pierre Schoeman was red carded for an elbow to Dan Leavy, yet some commentators like Jim Hamilton thought it was a legitimate attempt at a fend off. The ref's decision was largely down to the outcome rather than the act and outcomes are unpredictable. Pretty much every act by a player could have a range of outcomes and while the desired ones can be practised, the disastrous ones cannot be eliminated.

Ulster, Edinburgh and Benetton could all in theory either finish as high as 2nd or as low as fifth and that could still be determined by choosing which half to play the wind, or in other words the toss of a coin.

This is my biggest bug bear in rugby at the moment. I absolutely hate the outcome based way of dealing with instances.

Two scenes play out.

1. A player not seen as dirty goes up in the air with an opponent to try catch a high ball. The players collide. The opponent catches the ball but is the lighter of the two players and also jumps higher. The opponent ends up above the clean player and completely by accident ends up going over the clean players head resulting in the opponent crashing down to the pitch. If he manages to land on his feet, it’s just a penalty. If he lands on his back its yellow card, if he lands on his head it a red card.

A completely accidental collision ends up with three possible punishments depending on how the opponent lands.

2. A complete loose cannon, let’s call him Kyle, goes to actively forearm smash a scrum half in the face during a match where he's been wound up. When the loose cannon goes to do the smash, the wee scrum half is quicker and ducks below the smash and avoids getting his teeth knocked out and nose broken. Ref may give a penalty but may not give anything as "nothing happened"

The fact that the loose cannon actively attempted foul play but was too incompetent to pull it off he should get a harsher penalty to the clean player who accidentally toppled his opponent.

It's all a bit annoying!

Tell you what it would be a complete nightmare to referee things that didn't happen!

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 12:43 pm

like a Henry Pyrgos quick delivery?
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 12:55 pm

tigertattie wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
RDW wrote:As the old saying goes you make your own luck! The thing is we focus on that last minute decision (which was a very frustrating one) but we should have closed out the game better to not be in that position.

Edinburgh have done things the hard way this season - our A team have a reasonble win record but our B team during the international windows has lost to Zebre, Kings (a ridiculous game that we threw away), Dragons, Blues (despite being 17 points up in the 2nd half). The league is so tight that even if we had won the Kings and Blues games which we really should have won we would be sitting pretty in second place just now.

There's also a saying that things happen more by luck than judgement!

For example Pierre Schoeman was red carded for an elbow to Dan Leavy, yet some commentators like Jim Hamilton thought it was a legitimate attempt at a fend off. The ref's decision was largely down to the outcome rather than the act and outcomes are unpredictable. Pretty much every act by a player could have a range of outcomes and while the desired ones can be practised, the disastrous ones cannot be eliminated.

Ulster, Edinburgh and Benetton could all in theory either finish as high as 2nd or as low as fifth and that could still be determined by choosing which half to play the wind, or in other words the toss of a coin.

This is my biggest bug bear in rugby at the moment. I absolutely hate the outcome based way of dealing with instances.

Two scenes play out.

1. A player not seen as dirty goes up in the air with an opponent to try catch a high ball. The players collide. The opponent catches the ball but is the lighter of the two players and also jumps higher. The opponent ends up above the clean player and completely by accident ends up going over the clean players head resulting in the opponent crashing down to the pitch. If he manages to land on his feet, it’s just a penalty. If he lands on his back its yellow card, if he lands on his head it a red card.

A completely accidental collision ends up with three possible punishments depending on how the opponent lands.

2. A complete loose cannon, let’s call him Kyle, goes to actively forearm smash a scrum half in the face during a match where he's been wound up. When the loose cannon goes to do the smash, the wee scrum half is quicker and ducks below the smash and avoids getting his teeth knocked out and nose broken. Ref may give a penalty but may not give anything as "nothing happened"

The fact that the loose cannon actively attempted foul play but was too incompetent to pull it off he should get a harsher penalty to the clean player who accidentally toppled his opponent.

It's all a bit annoying!

Couldn't agree more, if you want to discourage an action you punish it rather than the result

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 12:59 pm

It's like attempted murder.

Why should the incompetent be rewarded with a lesser sentance???
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Post by jimbopip on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 1:01 pm

tigertattie wrote:It's like Glasgow sending players to Luvvietoun

Why should the incompetent be rewarded with chai lattes and designer knitwear???

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Post by The Great Aukster on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 1:02 pm

The Eye for an Eye approach is undoubtedly flawed. Why should a player be penalised at all if he is acting inside the Law?
The problem is that World Rugby are abrogating their responsibility to the game, by hoping that players themselves modify their behaviour to remain safe.
1. - an accident shouldn't be penalised if it happened inside the Law
2. - foul play is punishable whether it happens or is only attempted

The challenge for WR is to modify the Laws to reduce the likelihood of accidents in the first place, and to find a mechanism to penalise guilty players without destroying the spectacle.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 1:14 pm

It's about interpretation of the law, the whole thing about taking a player out in the air comes down to interpretation. If I'm not mistaken the law talks about competing for the ball, nowhere does it mention jumping for the ball. Someone like Devin Toner could compete for the ball without jumping yet Dave Shanahan to compete with him would need to jump, if Shanahan were to fall on his head while competing under the current interpretation would Toner not be due a red card even though realistically he stood no chance of wining the ball?

I'm aware it's an extreme example but points to what an a$$ the law is

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 2:17 pm

Some of the laws certainly need tweaked.

I still think you should not be allowed to jump in the air to catch the ball. You're not allowed to jump over tackles!
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