Israel Folau

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Post by yappysnap on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 7:32 am

First topic message reminder :

You may or may not be aware of his latest Instagram outburst.

Personally I find views like his appalling and no matter what he may believe I do not think he should be allowed to say it in a public space like on social media. Hate speech has no place in the world, certainly not in sports and recreational settings and definitely not from role models to the future generations.

Folau should be dropped by the Wallabies and his SR side, and although I wouldn't believe any apology that came from him he should be told why his words are unacceptable.

If you haven't seen it then then here it is https://www.instagram.com/p/BwEWt2uHcLI/?hl=en

And amongst many responses here is what Gareth Thomas had to say:

Gareth Thomas @gareththomas14
I don’t write this with hate or anger after Israel Folau’s comments.I write with sympathy. To everyone who reads it, don’t be influenced by his words. Be the better person and be YOU. Whoever YOU is..Hell doesn’t await YOU.Happiness awaits YOU.

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 9:43 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Where did you get that fact from? As I understand it, shipping freight around the world has a far lower carbon footprint than flying it!
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Post by BigGee on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 9:46 am

tigertattie wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Where did you get that fact from? As I understand it, shipping freight around the world has a far lower carbon footprint than flying it!

In relative terms maybe but in absolute terms certainly not, the great bulk of international trade still goes by sea

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 9:55 am

BigGee wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Where did you get that fact from? As I understand it, shipping freight around the world has a far lower carbon footprint than flying it!

In relative terms maybe but in absolute terms certainly not, the great bulk of international trade still goes by sea

Yeah, I mean pound for pound.

90% of trade is done by sea. Not only is is cheaper, but it's far far less harmful to the envorinment!

It takes x tonnes of carbon to transport y tonnes of good by ship, it would take 44 times more carbon to shift the same volume by plane!!!

Or put another way, anything you transport by plane can be transported by sea for only 2% of the cost to the environment.
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Post by geoff999rugby on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 2:51 pm

Of course aircraft are less efficient than shipping in terms of transporting a set quantity of produce but overall shipping is responsible for a higher % of carbon emissions.

This was in responsible to the post by Mr Fishpaste about the fact consumers demand goods out of season from all around the world.
If we are to tackle carbon emissions we need to tackle shipping as well as aircraft.
Of course technology will help but we are not in the fortunate position of being able to wait, we need to be more proactive now.
That means eating more local produce and going without certain things for some of the year.
For my part I only buy produce produced in Europe - a small step which really doesn't deny you anything of substance.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 2:55 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Mr Fishpaste your making the same mistake I highlighted.

Unsubstantiated generalizations of how individuals conduct themselves
Governments encourage the very consumerism you talk about
Of course Governments can do something - and have, just not enough

As to holidays - all holidays are unnecessary by their very nature.
Flying is a problem but two little facts - shipping is far far worse; if concrete were a country it would be responsible for 6% of the world pollution, more than flying and the 4th worst polluter in the World

Behind grass eating farm animals such as cows in particular and sheep

Cows yes, sheep no.
Also your talking a different pollutant - methane as opposed to carbon.
Methane is far more harmful - 23 times more I believe but it has a 1/2 life of 7 years where Carbon is 5730 + or - 30 years.

I do agree to no longer eat beef would be a very useful step in the right direction.

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Post by tigertattie on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 3:00 pm

I still cannot for the life of me understand how it can possibly be "cheaper" to import beef into the UK from Argentina rather than eating UK reared beef.

Cows eat grass! Grass grows for free on hills!

I know theres far more to it than that, but come one, surely it's more cost effective to eat meat from the UK than it is to ship it from half way around the world?
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Post by miaow on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 4:59 pm

Not a fan of the slightly dystopian shock-jock style presentation, but mildly relevant to get an Oz perspective (albeit it on Sky).


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Post by Pie on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 6:58 pm

Cyril wrote:Double post can’t delete!

Whereas your banter has been positively Dickensian in quality Laugh

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Post by Pie on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 7:00 pm

So what we're saying is that Big Macs have caused polar meltdown?? No wonder they keep the same recipe secret. Shocked

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 01 May 2019, 9:29 am

Thread reopened, with the hearing due on Saturday and a variety of "things" cropping up in the last 24 hours.

Please try to avoid anything libellous or defamatory.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 01 May 2019, 9:49 am

What cropped up?


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Post by SecretFly on Wed 01 May 2019, 9:55 am

Tar and feather him! Send him to a deserted island with no trees, no fresh water...and only a bag of salt, for comfort!!!!

That'll learn'im to only say what folks want him to say on social media...like maybe photographing every meal he eats or showing us his latest fashion buy!

Oops! Did I go too far? Run

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Post by BamBam on Wed 01 May 2019, 9:56 am

Collapse2005 wrote:What cropped up?


Assume its this - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/might-as-well-sack-me-tongan-thor-leaps-samu-kerevis-defence-as-reds-and-wallabies-star-apologises-for-instagram-post/

Completely different imo, nothing wrong with what Kerevi posted

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 01 May 2019, 10:18 am

Rugby players pontificating and preaching isn't something I would put much stock in much whether it is Folau's medieval posts or David Pocock's equally annoying "look at me" social justice virtue bombs or even stitching poppies/Notre Dame into your shirt. I just want to watch the rugby so I wish they would keep the side show to themselves and that's how I would feel if I was Folau's coach.

Personally I really appreciate the IRFUs policy to keep Irish rugby completely non-political.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 01 May 2019, 10:40 am

I agree with Guns. I don't mind discussions on the things players might say on their social media accounts...after all, that's why they post their thoughts in public. They know the deal.

I can dislike what they say but the only right I need is to say so in the same public forums as them. Tet a tet - an equal voice. ..that's all it should ever be unless someone specifically and seriously threatens an individual or a group of individuals.

But Irish rugby and the lack of politics? I'm not sure about that at all. "Nucifora has an agenda and it ain't in our best interest". "We get that player and get to keep him". "Why does he only sing one anthem?" "Why should there be two anthems?" "What colour scrum cap is that lad wearing?"

Now all those questions might have reasonable answers. But all of them have been asked and it's all politics.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 01 May 2019, 11:05 am

The anthems are more a rugby tradition than an IRFU tradition. They make it as non-political as possible by introducing Ireland's call which I endorse. Scrum cap colours aren't an IRFU policy. They do however, have a policy to avoid political statements and have turned down lots of requests.

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Post by tigertattie on Wed 01 May 2019, 12:28 pm

Cant we go back to talking about beef imports instead?
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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 01 May 2019, 12:40 pm

Its a free world. Throw out whatever chat interests you.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 01 May 2019, 12:45 pm

tigertattie wrote:Cant we go back to talking about beef imports instead?

Beef!?

Have you no shame? Don't you know beef is the single biggest threat to the welfare of the human species since the Big Bang...and we were damn lucky to survive that!

Gotta say it, tiger...think you deserve a lifetime ban for that.

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed 01 May 2019, 1:06 pm

Interesting article here on the subject:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48092219

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Post by miaow on Wed 01 May 2019, 1:15 pm

tigertattie wrote:Cant we go back to talking about beef imports instead?

Israel Folau - Page 8 515EactC3iL._SX343_BO1,204,203,200_

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 01 May 2019, 1:53 pm

Never realised he lost a ball during his career. What game did that happen in? Was it when he tackled the post illegally?

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Post by miaow on Wed 01 May 2019, 2:04 pm

Yes, think that's exactly what happened.

Funny anecdote about these calendars:


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Post by Taylorman on Thu 02 May 2019, 2:45 am

BamBam wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:What cropped up?


Assume its this - https://www.rugbypass.com/news/might-as-well-sack-me-tongan-thor-leaps-samu-kerevis-defence-as-reds-and-wallabies-star-apologises-for-instagram-post/

Completely different imo, nothing wrong with what Kerevi posted

Yes saw that, posted this elsewhere....

I’m starting to think this is really more of a cultural issue than a religious one, or at least, one of fusion between the two. I think what theyre really saying is ‘as a whole everything GOD says its true’ and everyone needs to follow what HE says to be ‘a better person’.

But theyre also saying, naively…’hey, but I didnt mean you …(specific name) ‘.

None of these guys have come out and said hey you…name…you will go to…wherever. I think they honestly believe the two can co-exist, where the moderrn, European, commercialised, PC based interpretation of that is the two most certainly are contradictory.

Both the Folau’s have reflected that on a specific level, Israel in his supporting the Oz gay rugby side, and Maria whole heartedly supporting a gay marriage of one of her team mates, ‘genuinely’ happy of the two friends, while supporting her husband 100%.

The ‘detail’ is irrelevant in the context of the overall ‘belief’ system, which is the higher authority in the hierarchy of things.

The facts suggest they don't 'practice what they preach' but rather the opposite.

So I now think we have a cultural rather than religious disconnect in terms of how things are perceived. There is naievity and misinterpretation 'on both sides' of the equation. The more intensely one analyses and argues at an intellectual level for the connection between whats in the scriptures and its impact on day to day life, the less relevant that is for the other side. Its about Faith at the highest level, not the uncrossed t's and undotted i's at the bottom.

The Folau's, Vunipola, Kerevi and the Torpedo are all wonderful people. People like Michael Jones and Sonny Bill have whats being described as a more inclusive 'spiritually mature' take on all this, and this is about the merging of Pacific Islanders in greater numbers into communities that have a far more complex and conflicting idealogies about what religion is. Folau's naivety is more about a lack of that understanding than about 'actually wishing x's and y's to go to the burning place.

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Post by Pie on Thu 02 May 2019, 5:46 am

Apparently God has fixed it for him to have his job backer the people who sacked him will go to hell. Useful being so well connected.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 02 May 2019, 3:29 pm

One disappointing aspect of this affair is the way it has sometimes been described as a confrontation between PC western culture and the traditional christianity of islanders, which was introduced/imposed on them by westerners in the first place.

Pacific Islanders are not the only Christians in rugby. It's a strong current in South Africa and not insignificant in Italy and Ireland. One of the best rugby schools in my part of England- known for past and current international players - was Catholic.

I mentioned Ruan Pienaar and  Euan Murray before. We know about them, because Pienaar said how important the church was to him during his time in Ulster, and Murray didn't play on Sunday.



Ugo Monye wrote a piece recently where he highlighted his own Christian background, and wondered whether the furore over Folau and Vunipola was creating a hostile environment for christians. He noted that Qantas has a relationships with Emirates, while the UAE is hostile to homosexuality, which he thinks seems like double standards.

Monye has Nigerian ancestry, just like Maro Itoje. Christianity is probably important in the families of both men but neither has got themselves in the jam Folau finds himself in.

Folau is by no means the first rugby player to hold his religious views on homosexuality during an era when homosexuality is not only not criminalized, but same sex partnerships are permitted.

If Monye does feel gay people are going to hell - and I don't know if he does - then he has had the good sense not to say so publicly. I don't think he keeps his counsel just so he can retain his media contracts; I think Monye knows he would offend people he counts as his friends, and does not wish to do so.



For all the "PC gone mad" claims about opposition to Folau, it's been eye-opening to see how wide that constituency is. Brexit-supporting Andy Goode is no-one's idea of a woolly liberal, and he opposes Folau.

I've been struck by how many Irish pundits have been as much concerned about Vunipola as Folau. There are many dyed-in-the-wool rugby men among them, so this also isn't a knee-jerk LGBT response. Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, give that the major premise of Irish international rugby is not letting religious differences divide the team.

The US is a an interesting test case. America is more overtly religious than most major rugby nations, so they have been dealing with these issues in more depth than we have.

Take the case of American Football high school coach Joe Kennedy. For years, he held prayer services in his coaching sessions, until word got out he was doing it. His bosses told him to stop, but he didn't. He then lost his job but appealed on the grounds his first amendent rights were being infringed. The US has much stronger free speech protection than Australia or the UK but he lost his case.

https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/local/2018/06/26/bremerton-school-prayer-case-coach-joe-kennedy-supreme-court/734402002/

No-one was stopping Kennedy holding his beliefs. He just couldn't express them in that way, while employed by a Board of Education.

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Post by LordDowlais on Thu 02 May 2019, 4:19 pm

Interesting point of view RF.

I find it very alarming that we now live in a world where expressing your beliefs can be taken as offence.

That case in America is a point of fact, if people did not want to pray during the coaching sessions, then I guess they should not have to, I have not read the link, but were they forced to pray ?

We really need to distinguish here what we find offensive, and what we look to find offensive.

If Israel Folau had come out and said that the world needs to be cleansed of gays or lesbians, or drunks or thieves then fine, he should be sent to answer for the hate, but he did not say anything like that.

You see, now this is the thing we are missing, Israel Folau is not passing judgement on anybody with what he has said, to me, he is sending a message of warning, of what he believes God will do to these people. I believe his message is wrong. But its OK to agree to disagree on it, as it is down to the individual and what you chose to believe.

Also, if people are so offended by what he has said about gays, then why aren't they equally offended by what he has said about everyone else who fits the bill on his list ?

I have read some really sensationalist headlines regarding this, making out he is preaching hate, I challenge anybody to point out the hate in his message, I really do.

He is not radicalising people over the internet in the name of religion to go to war and cause harm on innocent people, he is not preaching hate on a street corner, I see a very deluded Christian trying to give people salvation before it's too late and you are being judged by the almighty. Now that you could take offence to. Who is he to say what is right and what is wrong ?

Not once has he said that he hates any of the people that fall into the categories on his list, he is saying that God will send you to Hell, and he wants you all to end up in Heaven like himself, so you need to repent.

I am of a religious background, but I would never dream of trying to force my beliefs on anybody, as I think it would offend people, and that is all Israel Folau is guilty of, trying to force his beliefs on others.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 02 May 2019, 4:40 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:One disappointing aspect of this affair is the way it has sometimes been described as a confrontation between PC western culture and the traditional christianity of islanders, which was introduced/imposed on them by westerners in the first place.

Pacific Islanders are not the only Christians in rugby. It's a strong current in South Africa and not insignificant in Italy and Ireland. One of the best rugby schools in my part of England- known for past and current international players - was Catholic.

I mentioned Ruan Pienaar and  Euan Murray before. We know about them, because Pienaar said how important the church was to him during his time in Ulster, and Murray didn't play on Sunday.



Ugo Monye wrote a piece recently where he highlighted his own Christian background, and wondered whether the furore over Folau and Vunipola was creating a hostile environment for christians. He noted that Qantas has a relationships with Emirates, while the UAE is hostile to homosexuality, which he thinks seems like double standards.

Monye has Nigerian ancestry, just like Maro Itoje. Christianity is probably important in the families of both men but neither has got themselves in the jam Folau finds himself in.

Folau is by no means the first rugby player to hold his religious views on homosexuality during an era when homosexuality is not only not criminalized, but same sex partnerships are permitted.

If Monye does feel gay people are going to hell - and I don't know if he does - then he has had the good sense not to say so publicly. I don't think he keeps his counsel just so he can retain his media contracts; I think Monye knows he would offend people he counts as his friends, and does not wish to do so.



For all the "PC gone mad" claims about opposition to Folau, it's been eye-opening to see how wide that constituency is. Brexit-supporting Andy Goode is no-one's idea of a woolly liberal, and he opposes Folau.

I've been struck by how many Irish pundits have been as much concerned about Vunipola as Folau. There are many dyed-in-the-wool rugby men among them, so this also isn't a knee-jerk LGBT response. Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, give that the major premise of Irish international rugby is not letting religious differences divide the team.

The US is a an interesting test case. America is more overtly religious than most major rugby nations, so they have been dealing with these issues in more depth than we have.

Take the case of American Football high school coach Joe Kennedy. For years, he held prayer services in his coaching sessions, until word got out he was doing it. His bosses told him to stop, but he didn't. He then lost his job but appealed on the grounds his first amendent rights were being infringed. The US has much stronger free speech protection than Australia or the UK but he lost his case.

https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/local/2018/06/26/bremerton-school-prayer-case-coach-joe-kennedy-supreme-court/734402002/

No-one was stopping Kennedy holding his beliefs. He just couldn't express them in that way, while employed by a Board of Education.

I wouldn't be too worried about what Irish pundits have said given there wasn't much noise around Aki liking the post too but you are right Irish rugby tries to be as secular as possible.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 03 May 2019, 1:25 am

Rugby Fan wrote:One disappointing aspect of this affair is the way it has sometimes been described as a confrontation between PC western culture and the traditional christianity of islanders, which was introduced/imposed on them by westerners in the first place.

Pacific Islanders are not the only Christians in rugby. It's a strong current in South Africa and not insignificant in Italy and Ireland. One of the best rugby schools in my part of England- known for past and current international players - was Catholic.

I mentioned Ruan Pienaar and  Euan Murray before. We know about them, because Pienaar said how important the church was to him during his time in Ulster, and Murray didn't play on Sunday.



Ugo Monye wrote a piece recently where he highlighted his own Christian background, and wondered whether the furore over Folau and Vunipola was creating a hostile environment for christians. He noted that Qantas has a relationships with Emirates, while the UAE is hostile to homosexuality, which he thinks seems like double standards.

Monye has Nigerian ancestry, just like Maro Itoje. Christianity is probably important in the families of both men but neither has got themselves in the jam Folau finds himself in.

Folau is by no means the first rugby player to hold his religious views on homosexuality during an era when homosexuality is not only not criminalized, but same sex partnerships are permitted.

If Monye does feel gay people are going to hell - and I don't know if he does - then he has had the good sense not to say so publicly. I don't think he keeps his counsel just so he can retain his media contracts; I think Monye knows he would offend people he counts as his friends, and does not wish to do so.



For all the "PC gone mad" claims about opposition to Folau, it's been eye-opening to see how wide that constituency is. Brexit-supporting Andy Goode is no-one's idea of a woolly liberal, and he opposes Folau.

I've been struck by how many Irish pundits have been as much concerned about Vunipola as Folau. There are many dyed-in-the-wool rugby men among them, so this also isn't a knee-jerk LGBT response. Perhaps it shouldn't be surprising, give that the major premise of Irish international rugby is not letting religious differences divide the team.

The US is a an interesting test case. America is more overtly religious than most major rugby nations, so they have been dealing with these issues in more depth than we have.

Take the case of American Football high school coach Joe Kennedy. For years, he held prayer services in his coaching sessions, until word got out he was doing it. His bosses told him to stop, but he didn't. He then lost his job but appealed on the grounds his first amendent rights were being infringed. The US has much stronger free speech protection than Australia or the UK but he lost his case.

https://www.kitsapsun.com/story/news/local/2018/06/26/bremerton-school-prayer-case-coach-joe-kennedy-supreme-court/734402002/

No-one was stopping Kennedy holding his beliefs. He just couldn't express them in that way, while employed by a Board of Education.

It’s not so much that he’s religious RF it’s that he’s a PI, and PI religion is central to PI life, and in large areas of concentration of PI people, South Auckland for example. There is a general naivety about religion as a concept rather than simply a way of life. I know Folau has ‘been around’ western culture for a while but church is usually a tight knit affair within the family, extended family, and friends.

What Folau is lacking is a spiritual maturity in that ‘his way’ is not the only way. That’s why you get Vunipola, Kerevi, thopedo etc supporting them backtracking. It’s a common thread amongst islanders. Questioning the lords word is not done. If he’s going to hold down a position in rugby that is based on strong western values of profit, commercialism, being pc, then he needs to mature.

Sonny bill forego a Blues match to go down and support the Muslim community. So there is a level of maturity and compromise available to both sides, maturity and respect being the key.Pacific Islanders are learning that at varying degrees of success as their population from the islands only in the 70’s and prior, to ‘everywhere’ since.

As recently as fifty years ago PI’s all spoke the same language, went to the same church and believed the same things. The cultural move to the west is in some cases an absolute shock to some.

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Post by Pie on Fri 03 May 2019, 4:10 am

Ugo Money is a buffoon, who else listens to the Pod and thinks Chris Jones wants to tell him to shut his hyperbolic pie hole?

spellcheck did the work on Monye's name for me, even my 8 year old Mac knows he is a cash grabbing Christian....HELL AWAITS!!

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Post by TJ on Fri 03 May 2019, 9:48 am

Folau can follow whatever religion he wants. what he cannot do is make homophobic public sttements. the two are not mutually exclusive.

Religion is like a Winkle. Its fine to own one and be proud of it but please do not wave it around in public and try to stuff it down others throats

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 03 May 2019, 10:00 am

TJ wrote:Folau can follow whatever religion he wants.  what he cannot do is make homophobic public sttements.  the two are not mutually exclusive.

Religion is like a Winkle.  Its fine to own one and be proud of it but please do not wave it around in public and try to stuff it down others throats

Sounds like you are saying they are mutually exclusive (or not mutually inclusive) or that you think they should be. Does mutually exclusive not describe two things that cannot happen at the same time?

In any case I disagree, I think you should be entitled to hold whatever warped view you want mainly because its inevitable. I dislike how the media insist on jumping on every tweet to attempt to shoehorn a story out of it. His tweets, outside of work as daft as they are have nothing to with his performance in work and I expect that will reflect in the outcome of his employment case. Twitter is a cesspit of both rancid views and equally distasteful reciprocation.

Your "winkle" analogy is just odd and seems to be underpinned by another agenda.

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Post by TJ on Fri 03 May 2019, 10:20 am

sorry that post is not clear. What I meant is he is perfectly entitled to hold whatever views he wants. what he is not entitled to do is to make statements that are prejudiced in public.

Its not his religion thats the issue. Its his making homophobic and bigoted statements in public.

The winkle one is simply an analogy and a famous and well used one.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 03 May 2019, 10:34 am

Yeah to be fair the essence of your opinion was clear alright.

I don't agree with homophobia but I don't think firing people is the best way to deal with their odd views.

It is a distasteful analogy in my view but you are entitled to put it out there.

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 03 May 2019, 10:35 am

I'm afraid that society is determined on the numbers.

20 years ago the vegetarians were running around saying they were the being all ethical and not eating meat. Society in large labelled these guys as "hippes" and scoffed.

Now though they are starting to be seen as pioneers and we could be looking at a shift to eating far less meat.

These matters are opionions. Sometimes opinions change. Sometimes the masses take a while to catch on. Sometimes the minorites take a while to catch on.

Look at the puritons in the states 100s of years ago. Could you imagine such things like divorce in those days? But now it's widely accepted with more than half of couples getting a divorce these days.

Now, where is my capfire and Ukelele. Its time to sing coombyah
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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 03 May 2019, 10:37 am

tigertattie wrote:I'm afraid that society is determined on the numbers.

20 years ago the vegetarians were running around saying they were the being all ethical and not eating meat. Society in large labelled these guys as "hippes" and scoffed.

Now though they are starting to be seen as pioneers and we could be looking at a shift to eating far less meat.

These matters are opionions. Sometimes opinions change. Sometimes the masses take a while to catch on. Sometimes the minorites take a while to catch on.

Look at the puritons in the states 100s of years ago. Could you imagine such things like divorce in those days? But now it's widely accepted with more than half of couples getting a divorce these days.

Now, where is my capfire and Ukelele. Its time to sing coombyah

I think you are right Tiger. Most people seem to go with the crowd and accept popular opinion. Sticking your head above the parapet is not exactly the path of least resistance.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 03 May 2019, 11:35 am

TJ wrote:Its not his religion thats the issue. Its his making homophobic and bigoted statements in public.

No he isn't. That is not how I see it. He is not been homophobic or bigoted. He is saying what he believes somebody else will do, God.


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Post by SecretFly on Fri 03 May 2019, 11:36 am

TJ wrote:sorry that post is not clear.  What I meant is he is perfectly entitled to hold whatever views he wants.  what he is not entitled to do is to make statements that are prejudiced in public.

Its not his religion thats the issue.  Its his making homophobic and bigoted statements in public.

The winkle one is simply an analogy and a famous and well used one.

He said gays are going to hell. He believes in his religion and he believes gays will go to hell if they don't change their ways. In certain brands of Christianity you are FREE to make your own decisions in life... it's not about enforcing doctrine but warning 'sinners' that they'll pay a price AFTER they die.
'Whew' says most modern secularist people in Western society, 'that's okay coz we don't believe in neither Heaven nor Hell anyway.'
But that IS Folau's religion in his eyes. The speaking out publically bit about his Christian ideals is part of his religious conviction. That's why Christians were fed to the lions. They're considered martyrs because they did not renounce their belief under pain of death - they held firm and continued PREACHING 'the word of God'. That's part of the deal of being a Christian - to preach your faith bravely when being warned that you might pay a high price for doing so. Indeed, gay people should know that deal, shouldn't they. They too faced the challenge of speaking up for themselves when warned that they might pay a high price.

Or should we now introduce the word Christianophobia? Seems to me Christians could now justifiably assert that such a movement of people exists (just like in old Rome) and are quite animated throughout much of western media/social media in denigrating and ridiculing its followers. If Islamophobia exists and Homophobia exists then so too does Christianophobia. Or maybe Religophobia?

Anyway, gays/LGBT, and those who keep their agenda front and centre, should also try to be less selfish about media time - in that it is certain other 'sinners' were also outlined in Folau's post. Didn't he also mention adulterers and drunks? Does he 'hate' the other individual types he mentions? I'm sue he's certain that through his career he's played with many characters in those other catagories and enjoyed the company of many of them. And what do all those other people in the world who were on his Hell list think? Well, I'd say most of them laugh.

Drunkophobia? I actually am in all honesty a bit of a Drunkphobia type of person. Well, there are two types of drunk - nice cuddly friendly Shyte-talking ones (don't mind them) - and the other; vicious, aggressive, trouble-seeking - those guys I hate. Maybe I should now be doxed and stoned to death.....

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 03 May 2019, 11:40 am

Well I do not often agree with him, but well said SF. OK

That is a very well structured and informative bit of writing there.

Sadly, I just think there are far too many people in this world, who go out of their way to find an offence.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 May 2019, 11:43 am

As you admitted yourself LD you wouldn't make a statement like he did as you'd expect offence to be caused. As a Christian shouldn't he be trying to avoid that himself, avoid forcing those beliefs? All separate to the issue with rugby but he's already seen how his previous post was received.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri 03 May 2019, 11:47 am

The difference is that someone's sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. I can choose to get drunk, commit adultery, fornicate, steal, lie, etc.

You do not have a choice about your sexuality - if you are gay, straight or anything inbetween that's how and who you are.

"If God doesn't like gay people why does she make so many of them?"

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 03 May 2019, 11:51 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:As you admitted yourself LD you wouldn't make a statement like he did as you'd expect offence to be caused. As a Christian shouldn't he be trying to avoid that himself, avoid forcing those beliefs? All separate to the issue with rugby but he's already seen how his previous post was received.

Just because I wouldn't, it does not mean everybody shouldn't either.

At the end of the day, it's what he believes, who are we to question a person's beliefs ? He should not force his beliefs on people though, but that does not make him a bigot or a homophobic person.

If he was bigoted or homophobic, he would not be offering people salvation, he would be demanding they all be cast out of society, like a lot of other people have done over the years, Abu Hamza, kluklux clans e.c.t.....

People need to stop being so horrified over headlines and power groups, and perhaps peel the layers back and understand and truly realise what people are saying at times.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 03 May 2019, 11:53 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:As you admitted yourself LD you wouldn't make a statement like he did as you'd expect offence to be caused. As a Christian shouldn't he be trying to avoid that himself, avoid forcing those beliefs? All separate to the issue with rugby but he's already seen how his previous post was received.

Is he really forcing his beliefs on anyone? That's not really how I see it.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:01 pm

BTW:

With all this 'Phobia' related media content on the airwaves in the last ten or so years - I think it's important that all commentators should know the definition of the word as I do believe the definition of it has been hijacked by the political wings of all 'ISMS' and 'ISTS'.

The meaning of the word is Fear - not hate.
If I have Arachnophobia I fear spiders...I don't hate them.
If I have Agoraphobia then I fear physical spaces that make me uncomfortable.

Should people who run out of a room that they see a spider in lose their job?

But at least it's now clear that I don't have Drunkophobia after all, thank God.  I don't fear belligerent drunks.  I just hate them Wink

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:16 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:The difference is that someone's sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. I can choose to get drunk, commit adultery, fornicate, steal, lie, etc.

You do not have a choice about your sexuality - if you are gay, straight or anything inbetween that's how and who you are.

"If God doesn't like gay people why does she make so many of them?"

Neither is someone's genetic construction a matter of choice. Yet choice is the new heading on that too, isn't it. I 'choose' to be female.
You are free to choose to call yourself female, but if you are genetically male then I am not obligated to identify you as such.
"Oh yes you are! It's legal!"

Oh so 'Legal' is the new Religion that preaches and commands conformity to a set of Belief Based ideals?

It's his Religion, Irish. You say he shouldn't be allowed or given a platform to preach it. I say that dangerously close or slap bang right on target mirroring the thoughts of Islamophobes.
I say he has the right as an individual born onto this Earth with no less meaning than you, to give a picture of the world from his perspective, no matter how offensive other groups might find it. The equalising of that is in me saying you too should have the equal right to question, challenge and ridicule, if must be, his world view.

But when someone says to me that they choose to be the arbiters of what World view is presented to that World..... nope, that's when I draw a line, as we're entering the world where the ideal is authoritarianism...one world approved view.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:26 pm

He's not offering them salvation though LD. Nothing you can do about God making you gay.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's not offering them salvation though LD. Nothing you can do about God making you gay.

Well maybe God doesn't like what Folau's said? Maybe Folau will go on the elevator ride down to Hell for his pronouncements?

It's the Certainty you all have that Christ or God is somehow in cahoots with Folau that has me puzzled. Non believers should laugh as they obviously believe there is no Hell to go to anyway. Believers in Christianity (gays very much amongst them) should simply go with their concepts of their faith. And surely, if they are Christians, they believe that God/Jesus loves them for who they are. They don't need Folau's approval rating. I.e., their concept of their faith challenging Folau's.

Religion is Belief...never proof. Let Folau have his and let gays, religious or not, have theirs.
Sour Drunks? - they should go to Hell of course.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:53 pm

It's certainly a point of view fly. Some press very hard for complete freedom of speech with no consequence. Some think there should be limits and more for certain people etc. It will be interesting going forward what views players put forward and how they stand by them ie what is considered too controversial and what's in those contracts that the unions will have then signing.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:57 pm

I think there are two issues here, the right to believe what you want and say it and the right to broadcast it over social media knowing that in doing so you will be in breech of your contract of employment which forbids it.

Folau, signed a contract that prohibited him from expressing views on social media that could be viewed as racist or homophobic or any other socially unacceptable view. He was warned last year about it and precisely one year later repeats the action. That is the issue, not that he holds his beliefs as he is fully entitled to do. If he didn't like the contract, he should not have signed it, then he would heve been free to say what he wanted in whatever way he saw fit (subject to the law anyway).

I work with a quite strict practicing Muslim guy (who is currently away from his desk at prayer), he understands that the old testament which forms part of the Quran was written thousands of years ago and the "books" have been put together by scholars that were trying to find writings that suited their particular ideology i.e. the Catholic Church. Islam has deviated from this over the last 1200 years. The Vatican in particular holds numerous writings from the era and refuses to let them be seen as they contradict the established testaments. The Bible or other teaching s of that age need to be read and understood for what they are and not taken literally but as more of a guide on how to live your life.

Beliefs are obviously very personal things, but why are people that profess to be doing the work of God always shouting out about the fire and brimstone elements, what happened to the love of fellow man, forgiveness, acceptance of people as they are, that the bible and the Quran preach. Are they trying to create a new phobia as they seem to be trying to spread fear of what will happen if you behave as you were made by the very God they believe will send you to hell. Can they not see the irony of it?

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Post by tigertattie on Fri 03 May 2019, 1:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:BTW:

With all this 'Phobia' related media content on the airwaves in the last ten or so years - I think it's important that all commentators should know the definition of the word as I do believe the definition of it has been hijacked by the political wings of all 'ISMS' and 'ISTS'.

The meaning of the word is Fear - not hate.
If I have Arachnophobia I fear spiders...I don't hate them.
If I have Agoraphobia then I fear physical spaces that make me uncomfortable.

Should people who run out of a room that they see a spider in lose their job?

But at least it's now clear that I don't have Drunkophobia after all, thank God.  I don't fear belligerent drunks.  I just hate them Wink

Now there is a debate we can all get behind.

You are an arachnaphobic Agrophobe. You live in a ground floor one room studio flat (nice and cosy), but then you see a spider.

Do you stay inside with the spider or run outside away from it!!! Headscratch
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