England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Page 10 of 14 Previous  1 ... 6 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by miaow on Thu 11 Apr 2019, 8:52 pm

First topic message reminder :

Mirroring the thread I did for Wales, England have had huge strength in depth for the last 9 years or so. Under Lancaster it seemed to be a hindrance as much as a strength, with no-one really leaping out to claim key positions, cycling through the likes of Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt etc. in the centre.

Now, it feels like England do have some real test quality players who have grabbed shirts with both hands and are nailed on: the Vunipolas, Tuilagi, Lawes, and latterly players like May, Curry, and Underhill.

With that in mind...who makes England's 31 man squad based on who's fit and available (as well as who's out injured)? If you want to include who you'd personally pick as well that'd be interesting, but who do England fans think will be in that squad in Japan?

Also, who is in the starting 23 and who are the 6-7 reserve players who stand a good chance of a call up?

I've done it for Wales in the Wales thread - think it's looking very settled, with a few first 15 positions up for debate depending on opposition. From the outside England's squad looks a lot less settled or certain.

Squads ten to be:

17-18 forwards
5 Props
2 or 3 Hookers
5 Second rows
5 or 6 Back rowers

13-14 Backs
3 Scrum-halves
2-3 Fly-halves
3 Centres
5 Back 3

So who/what is the current England squad?

miaow

Posts : 2670
Join date : 2011-03-31

Back to top Go down


England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 May 2019, 10:28 am

Bit underwhelmed by the England team which is a Saxons side in all but name. I did used to enjoy watching the Saxons in the Churchill Cup, so even if they had called it England Saxons vs Barbarians I probably still would have tuned in (in theory, although I'm actually going on holiday on Sunday so will miss the games), it just feels like a bit deceptive.

Should still be a solid day of rugby for those who are going with both games offering something. Just not one we can really draw any conclusions from going forward.

If we can take anything from this (squad selection), could it be about Cipriani? The Barbarians have Gloucester players and were rumoured to be interested in having him play, while England have Northampton players, so both factored in the semi-final results. The fact that he's not playing at all could potentially be an indication he was told to sit this one out ahead of a summer camp? If England didn't want to take him to camp, they could have picked him here. If they left him out, the Barbarians could have snapped him up for this one.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Tue 28 May 2019, 11:28 am

The England squad is clearly only considering players who aren't in contention for the RWC - which is sensible, as the last thing England need is for a squad member to get injured in an end of season exhibition match of no real consequence. It's not part of Eddie's preparations, and it's basically just a moneyspinner for the RFU.

The squad that's been picked is an interesting one - light on experience but high on potential. I'm looking forward to it as a chance to see some future talent turning out for a senior England XV, in most cases for the first time.

That's good news for Cipriani, as it probably implies that he's in contention for the training camp squad.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 28 May 2019, 1:01 pm


The best rumour doing the rounds during this end of season pre world cup window of speculation is that Greg Bateman, the Leicester prop, is the solution for England.

Bateman is 29 and in his seventh year in the Premiership. He is best known on YouTube for a try against Harlequins early last season when he took a line off a flat pass from George Ford, made an outside break to skip round Mike Brown’s tackle and went in beside the uprights. In an interview later, he claimed it was a 75-metre run-in, which showed that he has not only a decent turn of pace but a sense of humour to match. Both qualities are always welcome and the rumour is rather splendid; however, it is some way wide of the mark. Nevertheless, you can see where it originated.

It is not Bateman’s tryscoring that might have interested Eddie Jones, the England head coach. It is his versatility. Bateman has started only at loose-head for Leicester this season. Two years ago, though, he started only at tight-head. This ability to switch from one side of the scrum to the other has become so rare, it is almost extinct. Every four years when the World Cup comes around, though, it becomes rather valuable.

In 2015, Kieran Brookes was in the England squad as the fifth prop — the one who could work both sides if required. Of the five props who went in 2011, Alex Corbisiero, a loose-head by trade, could also do a job on the other side if required.


With Jones set to reject the Bateman solution, however, it seems likely that he will have to take three props on either side. With three hookers, that makes nine front-rowers; with a squad limited to 31, Jones would therefore be obliged to gamble on numbers somewhere else.

In England four years ago, Wales’s Warren Gatland cut back by taking two hookers. This was deemed controversial at the time but it was a gamble that he could just about get away with, then, given that back-up was so close at hand.

Actually, Bateman used to play hooker, too. With the Bateman solution, Jones could therefore have had his Leicester man as an all-round super-sub, taken only seven front-rowers and saved two spots. But let’s move on to reality.

A squad of 31 is tight. With nine front-rowers, it probably leaves Jones room for nine more in the second and back rows. If you go through the names, Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Billy Vunipola and the two No 7s, Sam Underhill and Tom Curry, will surely all go. There is a pinch point at No 6 and No 8; the odds are on Mark Wilson and Nathan Hughes going, which would leave no place for Brad Shields or Chris Robshaw.

Even to accommodate nine, Jones has to be frugal elsewhere. The most likely solution, then, is that he will take only two scrum halves. England have taken three to every World Cup since 1999, but cutting No 9s became commonplace four years ago; as the Japan head coach in 2015, Jones took two No 9s. Expect him to follow suit with England this time round.

This is where versatility becomes a quality. Ford will go to the World Cup as the second-choice No 10 but there has been talk within the management that he could also be pressed to do an emergency job at scrum half.

Alex Goode would hope that versatility might fuel his case too, as Ben Kay argued in these pages on Saturday. His ability to switch from full back, where he usually plays for Saracens, to No 10 would provide a third fly-half option. However, nowhere is competition tighter than where Goode really sits, in the back three.

Jones will probably have room for five wings and full backs. Now try perming five from Jonny May, Elliot Daly, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell, Anthony Watson and Chris Ashton. Then add into the contest Ruaridh McConnochie, the Bath man in whom Jones has taken a late interest, Mike Brown and Goode, the people’s choice. I suspect that the first five listed will go, Ashton will miss out and Goode will remain an unanswered argument.

Four years ago, the series of warm-up matches that England played in the build-up to the World Cup were considered by Stuart Lancaster, the head coach, as not only a tune-up for the big event but a series of trials games too.

Jones’s approach is different. He doesn’t need more time to make up his mind. He has known his mind for long enough already and anyone who believes he is likely to change it so close to the World Cup hasn’t been paying attention.

Obviously, there are form and fitness to be taken into consideration. For instance, Jones wants to take Dylan Hartley and he needs evidence that the hooker will be ready to go.

However, it may be that the only place in his party that is still undecided is his second-choice No 9. Ben Youngs and then who? That is a long story, one we have told here enough times, and we still don’t know how it ends.

That aside, there is little genuine narrative left in our endless chatter about who will be in the England World Cup squad. Goode and Danny Cipriani look like red herrings. Cipriani will surely be named in the World Cup training squad because Jones needs him on standby in case of injury, but he is unlikely to make the squad. When we are in Japan and the high balls start raining down on Daly, we may be wondering whether Goode might have been the man to catch them. Yet he is likely to remain the great what-if.
Jones’s 31-man travelling party
If all are fit and well, then, I would be surprised if the England World Cup squad looks very different from this:

Prop Mako Vunipola, Ellis Genge, Ben Moon, Kyle Sinckler, Harry Williams, Dan Cole. Hooker Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Dylan Hartley. Lock Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes. Back row Billy Vunipola, Sam Underhill, Tom Curry, Mark Wilson, Nathan Hughes. Scrum half Ben Youngs, Ben Spencer. Fly half Owen Farrell, George Ford. Centre Manu Tuilagi, Ben Te’o, Henry Slade, Jonathan Joseph. Back three Jonny May, Elliot Daly, Jack Nowell, Joe Cokanasiga, Anthony Watson.

Owen Slot in The Times today largely agrees with the squad make-up I have been suggesting earlier in the thread. By agreeing with me, he is obviously wrong

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 20137
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 May 2019, 4:16 pm

LondonTiger wrote:The best rumour doing the rounds during this end of season pre world cup window of speculation is that Greg Bateman, the Leicester prop, is the solution for England.

The Bateman thing is interesting and as I were a top level prop I'd probably ensure I could play both sides for the same reason if I were an England international not picked for the Lions I'd be booking a holiday that coincidentally happened to be in South Africa in summer 2021. Tom Court's 2013 Lions appearance being the template for this. Sometimes circumstance can trump ability and then once you get a call-up to a World Cup squad or a Lions tour who knows what could happen. However I think it would definitely raise an eyebrow if Bateman went.

I wouldn't take 9 front row and I don't think Eddie would either. He did this World Cup in reverse last time out and took 7 front row from Japan to England, I can see a similar number going the other way, or perhaps more likely 8. The article mentioning Gatland only I think is an omission of some key details, because although Gatland only took 2 hookers, Eddie only took 4 props in his original squad, would have had to call his replacements in from halfway across the world and perhaps most importantly also got away with it, so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to repeat the trick. (I also wouldn't be surprised if Gatland did the same either).

I think Eddie will have a plan by the time the squad is announced of what to do and he may even spend the first week of camp checking out Cowan-Dickie at loosehead or his props the wrong way round to help finalise that plan. I doubt it's something he's looked at yet, but he'll try a couple of things in training, see who feels comfortable playing out of position.

Depending on Mako's fitness we may either see him miss out, or if he's okay to travel then the main beneficiaries may be Moon and Genge. We could see 3 on the loosehead, 3 hookers and 2 on the tighthead side with a bit of extra cover on Mako's side.

If you have 2 looseheads, 2 tightheads and 1 "versatile prop" (who may be naff on his weaker side, but will act as a sacrificial lamb if needed) then the chances are your versatile prop would be on the bench anyway if he were covering the wrong side. Eddie sometimes has his props go far into games even when he does have dedicated cover, so even if you picked the spilt above and Sinckler gets a tight calf against USA that will keep him out for 2 weeks, you will have Ben Moon coming on at tighthead against France for 15 minutes and possibly 3 scrums. The rest of his game is essentially unchanged. I don't see that as such a horrendous prospect you need to severely limit your choices elsewhere in the squad.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Tue 28 May 2019, 4:24 pm

The cap count in that back row is
Vunipola 41
Hughes 22
Wilson 13
Curry 10
Underhill 7

I just can't see that group having the experience to manage a tough schedule.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by BamBam on Tue 28 May 2019, 4:47 pm

Billy and the two 7s are certainties imo. I wouldn't want to go without cover for Billy so Hughes is in too. Its only really Robshaw for Wilson that could add any experience, at this time Wilson is the incumbent 6 and I'd be starting him

Billy is definitely a senior player now, I think we'd be ok for experience

BamBam

Posts : 15229
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 May 2019, 5:23 pm

BamBam wrote:Billy and the two 7s are certainties imo. I wouldn't want to go without cover for Billy so Hughes is in too. Its only really Robshaw for Wilson that could add any experience, at this time Wilson is the incumbent 6 and I'd be starting him

Billy is definitely a senior player now, I think we'd be ok for experience

Wilson covers for Vunipola as well though. He did it for an entire autumn series. So you could have Robshaw instead of Hughes. I think that makes us marginally stronger. I could see Hughes if we were missing a lock as a 6th back row option, but I'm not sure he makes my strongest 5, and we don't need cover going in if we're going 4 locks and 5 back row.

With New Zealand doing the double in 2015 and 2011 (with Read and McCaw at the heart of it), South Africa's 2007 vintage of Burger, Smith and Roussow and England's vaunted Hill, Back and Dallaglio in 2003, the last 4 winners all have strong, experienced back rows (possibly further back, but my knowledge isn't as great).

It may be pointing out though that Warburton had 15 caps going into the 2011 World Cup as captain, Lydiate wasn't a regular until the 2010 Autumn internationals and Faletau didn't make his debut until the 2011 game against the Barbarians. The 3 of them went quite well in tandem until 3 became 2 against France. You could argue that Warburton's inexperience led to the sending off against France, and potentially a more experienced player wouldn't have attempted that tackle, but I'm not sure I'd buy that. But regardless of what happened in the semi-final, Gatland picked 3 talented guys who worked well together, despite their lack of experience. They all went on to have good tournaments and indeed careers.

If Billy brings his late season Sarries form (now he's got more rugby under his belt), Curry and Underhill come in playing like they have for England over the last 10 months and Wilson and Robshaw provide that work rate and that ability to be in the right place at the right time to allow the other two playing a bit more freedom, then we've got a good unit however we quite structure it. Robshaw and Billy both have quite a bit of international experience while Wilson is an experienced Premiership player who seems to understand his role and his game quite well from what I've seen of him in an England shirt.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by BamBam on Tue 28 May 2019, 5:27 pm

Wilson replacing Vunipola means a change of styles in the back row, I wouldn't want to rely on him at 8 in a knockout game if Billy picks up a knock. Think we'd lose a lot of ball carrying ability, Hughes isn't as good as Billy but he can be effective and will continue to tie in defenders.

I think Wilson and Robshaw are competing for one spot, and Wilson is ahead for me

BamBam

Posts : 15229
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by yappysnap on Tue 28 May 2019, 8:46 pm

Yea Wilson and Billy are two very differenr players, but Hughes has generally been underwhelming for England. Although hes had a very good club season(?). So I guess its take a similar but worse player, or a more effective but different style of player as cover.

Id like Robshaw to go, just so he hopefully has some better memories then that '15 RWC.

yappysnap

Posts : 11533
Join date : 2011-06-01
Age : 31
Location : Christchurch, NZ

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Tue 28 May 2019, 8:57 pm

Wilson had a really good series at 8 when he played there and was quite an effective carrier. We won 3 games and got closer to beating the All Blacks than we have in years - the length of Courtney Lawes' big toe away from a win.

I'm not convinced Hughes offers that much more than Wilson at 8, is a much worse flanking option and his ability to cover second row is less relevant with 4 locks already in the squad.

I'd possibly be looking for 8 front row to add an extra back row or back, so we could see Robshaw, Wilson and Hughes all going.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Wed 29 May 2019, 9:04 am

Other England news:

Marcus Smith is out of the U20 JWC. He was selected in the squad, then selected for the Barbarians game and removed from the squad.

Correct call?

There's often an argument for certain players "outgrowing" the Under 20s, and possibly a longer pre-season and 7 weeks running the show in the Premiership with the World Cup stars absent he could push on for potentially a Six Nations squad place. Maybe this England game is the start of that. But it's a shame for the U20s, as the JWC is a good tournament in its own right and it's always good to see our strongest go.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 29 May 2019, 9:45 am

I felt that last year Smith was trying too hard to be superman at the JWC, and England usually looked better with Hardwick or Grayson at 10 who maybe had less talent but were not forcing things. There can be a lot of pressure on guys like Smith to overperform - as you say they have maybe outgrown the U20s.

As with Ford way back when a summer of S&C (following a good rest could do him the world of good). 


PS I thought the Premiership season did not start until 20th October (WC 1/4 finals weekend).

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 20137
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Wed 29 May 2019, 11:51 am

LondonTiger wrote:I felt that last year Smith was trying too hard to be superman at the JWC, and England usually looked better with Hardwick or Grayson at 10 who maybe had less talent but were not forcing things. There can be a lot of pressure on guys like Smith to overperform - as you say they have maybe outgrown the U20s.

As with Ford way back when a summer of S&C (following a good rest could do him the world of good). 


PS I thought the Premiership season did not start until 20th October (WC 1/4 finals weekend).

That does sound right actually, but it just slipped my mind. Still, more likely to hit the ground running when the season does start. There are also restrictions on who can go on the 2020 tour, so maybe that is seen as a target for him, and missing the JWC is the best way to get him there.

There's arguments for him missing it, it just then becomes odd that he was picked in the first place.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by BamBam on Wed 29 May 2019, 4:49 pm

Couple of interesting lines from Haskell in this, will have to listen to the whole podcast 


https://www.joe.co.uk/sport/house-of-rugby-dan-leo-red-bib-233358

BamBam

Posts : 15229
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 29 May 2019, 5:06 pm

"And Eddie (Jones) was like, 'Hask, you're not competing for the ball much at training, mate'. And I'd say that's because you've got Sinks and (Ellis) Genge, who are completely insane. I'd rather not, if you don't mind. I'll wait for a game."

Classic.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 20137
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed 29 May 2019, 6:00 pm

Ha, brilliant.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18093
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 30 May 2019, 6:33 am

Joe Marler would be prepared to end his retirement from international rugby if an injury crisis hits England during the World Cup. “If they were desperate I would give them a hand,” the Harlequins prop said. “But they’re not, so I’m happy where I’m at.”

From the Times

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 20137
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Thu 30 May 2019, 9:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Joe Marler would be prepared to end his retirement from international rugby if an injury crisis hits England during the World Cup. “If they were desperate I would give them a hand,” the Harlequins prop said. “But they’re not, so I’m happy where I’m at.”

From the Times

So if Mako goes down during the campaign, we've got cover. That'll do.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 30 May 2019, 10:00 am

robbo277 wrote:Wilson had a really good series at 8 when he played there and was quite an effective carrier. We won 3 games and got closer to beating the All Blacks than we have in years - the length of Courtney Lawes' big toe away from a win.

I'm not convinced Hughes offers that much more than Wilson at 8, is a much worse flanking option and his ability to cover second row is less relevant with 4 locks already in the squad.

I'd possibly be looking for 8 front row to add an extra back row or back, so we could see Robshaw, Wilson and Hughes all going.

Mark is a very effective second row player at prem level aswell, so could possibly be a lock cover for England aswell in essential times.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21141
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Thu 30 May 2019, 11:53 am

England could have some serious back row options post world cup...

Curry twins
Underhill
Willis (and his younger brother at 8)
Mercer
Dombrandt
Hill
Earl

Billy V
Simmonds - who i prefer to Hughes
Hughes

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21141
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Cumbrian on Thu 30 May 2019, 12:55 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:England could have some serious back row options post world cup...

Curry twins
Underhill
Willis (and his younger brother at 8)
Mercer
Dombrandt
Hill
Earl

Billy V
Simmonds - who i prefer to Hughes
Hughes

Who do you think is most likely to make the biggest impact?

I hope Dombrant spends a good amount of time at no.8, he is well built and powerful in the Picamoles mould. The other options Earl/ Willis and Mercer are all exciting talents but built in the lighter more Kieran Reid/Parisse mould.

I feel at times we have been over reliant on Billy an his carrying ability. I also have a nagging worry that Billy may not have the longest of international career (seems to get injured a lot).

I like the options of Ted Hill and Jack Willis for blindside. Hill seems rangy, but strong. Willis reminds me a little of Richard Hill, perhaps because he is a similar size and has that turnover ability.

A long term back-row of Willis, Curry and Dombrandt could be a nightmare to play against on the deck.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4177
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 35
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Thu 30 May 2019, 2:46 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
robbo277 wrote:Wilson had a really good series at 8 when he played there and was quite an effective carrier. We won 3 games and got closer to beating the All Blacks than we have in years - the length of Courtney Lawes' big toe away from a win.

I'm not convinced Hughes offers that much more than Wilson at 8, is a much worse flanking option and his ability to cover second row is less relevant with 4 locks already in the squad.

I'd possibly be looking for 8 front row to add an extra back row or back, so we could see Robshaw, Wilson and Hughes all going.

Mark is a very effective second row player at prem level aswell, so could possibly be a lock cover for England aswell in essential times.

Wilson may be able to cover lock, but in a 4+5 it's not necessary for 1 of your back rows to cover in and in a 3+6 I think he gets in as a dedicated backrow option (e.g. pick your 4 matchday back row and add 2 guys, including 1 versatile player).

I think 4+5 is more likely because Eddie won't want to leave any of his locks at home and we also have Lawes and Itoje able to cover out in an emergency (or in Eddie's opinion, over an entire season). If one of the locks got injured however, I think we'd switch to 3+6 (especially if it was Lawes or Itoje injured) and then the choice would be between Shields and Wilson.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Thu 30 May 2019, 3:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:England could have some serious back row options post world cup...

Curry twins
Underhill
Willis (and his younger brother at 8)
Mercer
Dombrandt
Hill
Earl

Billy V
Simmonds - who i prefer to Hughes
Hughes

The summer tour in 2020 is going to be interesting. I can't remember the exact rules, but we'll see a lot of World Cup players missing. I think it's along the lines of if you're in the World Cup squad and start 20 games across the season, but don't quote me.

A lot of these guys named will get their go, along with players like Obano, Singleton and Isiekwe who have been talked about for a while and on the verge of squads.

Backs too, Youngs, Farrell, Tuilagi et al will probably miss the tour, so we'll see some new faces here as well.

It will be interesting to see who the new coach of England is and how they set us up to play, and that will probably determine who from this group comes through. I really liked Simmonds when he played for england and it would be good to see him get a good run for England.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Thu 30 May 2019, 3:54 pm

Dombrandt has been playing 6 and 8 for Quins, but mostly 8 - and keeping two very decent 8s in Clifford and Chisholm in the 6 or 7 shirt (depending on where Robshaw's playing).

He's got a lot of the skill set that Nick Easter had but with more pace, which makes him a really difficult player to contain. I think 8 is his natural position, and if they can get his conditioning right he could be a very handy alternative to Billy.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by bluestonevedder on Thu 30 May 2019, 4:17 pm

I'm really hoping we get to see Underhill on a consistent basis next season in a England shirt. He's had some thundering performances in white so far, but with consecutive games under his belt as well as added confidence, he's a player than is extremely exciting

bluestonevedder

Posts : 3772
Join date : 2011-08-22

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 30 May 2019, 4:36 pm

Beauden Barrett still wakes up in a cold sweat thinking about him

Collapse2005

Posts : 3403
Join date : 2017-08-24

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 30 May 2019, 5:12 pm

I always want to take a step back when I see eulogies towards our player depth. Regardless of how many people are in contention, we still have to select a match 23, and settle on a gameplan to do the job.

In 2003, as we were heading towards the World Cup, I seem to remember Woodward saying an England third XV would be competitive. As it turned out, a second XV was beaten by France in a cup warm-up, so we didn't go as deep as he thought (although it was close).

He may have been right that a late call up to a third or fourth choice player could still have seen us home, provided the core squad was still in place. NZ were in that position when they ended up with Stephen Donald at 10. However, that's a long way from thinking all your third choices could make a decent team.

The problem with having so many contenders is that it's impossible to give them all an extended run at Test level. And yet we know that all players feel there is a gap between test match intensity, and regular match intensity, so only a few will get to experience that, and a smaller number still will build up consecutive caps.

Yes, we have a lot of good young back rowers but many will see no time in an England shirt, or will have one bad game, and be shunted off for the next cab on the rank. If England win, then these lost players will be largely forgotten. If we lose, then they will always be held up as examples of what might have been.

Rugby Fan

Posts : 5536
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Thu 30 May 2019, 5:52 pm

RF, that's not what has happened, though, is it? Eddie has tended to be very consistent in his selections when allowed to by injury - but (like Lancaster before him) he's spent four years with selection effectively dictated by who's on the treatment table.

Off the top of my head, Mako, Genge, Obano, Hartley, all four locks, Underhill, Billy, Robshaw, Tuilagi, Joseph and Watson have all missed at least a series through injury, and there are probably more. A lot of the players who have come through have got their chance because of it.

Some of the uncertainty in the squad is because of that, though I think that there is also an element that it has allowed Eddie to develop at least two players (in most positions) who we would be happy to see starting, which our RWC schedule means we will need.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Thu 30 May 2019, 8:52 pm

Youngs missed the 2018 Six Nations.

I think the next World Cup cycle we'll have development tours in 2020 and 2021. Other than that we can just pick our strongest team throughout and there's plenty of natural rotation due to injuries and sometimes suspensions, and then you just have to back a player if their performances demand it.

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Rugby Fan on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:11 am

Poorfour wrote:RF, that's not what has happened, though, is it? Eddie has tended to be very consistent in his selections when allowed to by injury - but (like Lancaster before him) he's spent four years with selection effectively dictated by who's on the treatment table.
I was thinking more about the future England team rather than Jones' tenure so far. In several season wrap-ups, I've seen our depth being talked up. Particularly, back row, back three and midfield. Someone is still going to have to figure out how the best combinations, and point everyone in the right direction. Of course, it's a much better problem to have than being short on talent

Rugby Fan

Posts : 5536
Join date : 2012-09-14

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Fri 31 May 2019, 8:54 am

The Guardian reporting this morning that Cipriani was refused permission to play for the BaaBaas, suggesting that he’s in the frame for the RWC training squad. Speculates that he’s being asked to train to cover as an emergency scrum half (along with Ford) so that Eddie can utilise the squad slots more efficiently.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 31 May 2019, 9:14 am

Poorfour wrote:The Guardian reporting this morning that Cipriani was refused permission to play for the BaaBaas, suggesting that he’s in the frame for the RWC training squad. Speculates that he’s being asked to train to cover as an emergency scrum half (along with Ford) so that Eddie can utilise the squad slots more efficiently.

In all the papers now, based on comments from Pat Lam initially.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 20137
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:09 am

England team for Sunday out:

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 D74xsJ_X4AEZhZY?format=jpg&name=medium

Perhaps this needs its own match thread now to stop it getting mixed up in wider discussions about England, depth and the World Cup?

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:28 am

It probably does need its own thread - but that's an exciting team. We can expect to see quite a few of these guys winning full caps in the next RWC cycle.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by BamBam on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:31 am

Back row and midfield looks great

BamBam

Posts : 15229
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by BamBam on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:40 am

The oh so unbiased Simon Thomas has pointed out that there are 4 or 5 Welsh qualified players in that team. Does this game lock them in for England before they try and get their grubby mitts on any of our players?

BamBam

Posts : 15229
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Cumbrian on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:56 am

BamBam wrote:The oh so unbiased Simon Thomas has pointed out that there are 4 or 5 Welsh qualified players in that team. Does this game lock them in for England before they try and get their grubby mitts on any of our players?

Who are they? Sheedy is a given. Johnny Williams qualifies for about 1000 countries from what I remember. They aren't still pining after Dombrandt are they? Can't think of any others.

Game will be a non capped one, so won't tie anybody down.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4177
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 35
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:57 am

BamBam wrote:The oh so unbiased Simon Thomas has pointed out that there are 4 or 5 Welsh qualified players in that team. Does this game lock them in for England before they try and get their grubby mitts on any of our players?

As its a non cap "England XV" rather than the designated senior national or next senior national side side I'd assume not.

Gooseberry

Posts : 4717
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:57 am

Dombrandt only qualified on residency... and Alex doesn't live there any more.

I'll get me coat.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 31 May 2019, 11:59 am

This might also explain why Wales insist on capping their BS exhibition games.

Gooseberry

Posts : 4717
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by BamBam on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:03 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
BamBam wrote:The oh so unbiased Simon Thomas has pointed out that there are 4 or 5 Welsh qualified players in that team. Does this game lock them in for England before they try and get their grubby mitts on any of our players?

Who are they?  Sheedy is a given. Johnny Williams qualifies for about 1000 countries from what I remember.  They aren't still pining after Dombrandt are they?  Can't think of any others.

Game will be a non capped one, so won't tie anybody down.

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/1134404957367672833?s=2

Marchant, Williams, Sheedy, Dombrandt

BamBam

Posts : 15229
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Cumbrian on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:10 pm

Sheedy fair enough, but the others are seem a bit tenuous.

I didn't realise going to university in Wales meant you are Welsh, I better start learning 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau'. Rolling Eyes

Hasn't Marchant already been capped? I know he has been included in previous squads, but I don't know if he actually got on the pitch. Seems like he made his decision to me. Same with Johnny Williams.
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4177
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 35
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by BamBam on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:15 pm

I asked him if we'd get the same reporting of how many English qualified players are in the next Wales line up but he didn't reply funnily enough

BamBam

Posts : 15229
Join date : 2011-03-17
Age : 29

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by lostinwales on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:16 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Sheedy fair enough, but the others are seem a bit tenuous.

I didn't realise going to university in Wales meant you are Welsh, I better start learning 'Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau'. Rolling Eyes

Hasn't Marchant already been capped?  I know he has been included in previous squads, but I don't know if he actually got on the pitch.  Seems like he made his decision to me.  Same with Johnny Williams.

I see Sheedy is Irish by birth, brought up in Wales and qualifies for England through residency.

One thing I don't understand with the residency thing is if it runs out? As far as I can see the claim that Wales have for Sheedy is the same as for England, and surely we don't both have a claim on the same basis at the same time?.

Dombrandt is just a non-starter, like Underhill before hand.

lostinwales

Posts : 8279
Join date : 2011-06-09
Location : Out of Wales :)

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:26 pm

Residency qualification does run out if you leave. I see he is now pointing out that Dombrandt is not Welsh qualified.

LondonTiger
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 20137
Join date : 2011-02-10

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:37 pm

And sheedy was born in Cardiff.

No 7&1/2

Posts : 18093
Join date : 2012-10-20

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Poorfour on Fri 31 May 2019, 12:39 pm

Marchant hasn't been capped and has ancestry qualification. England should be careful not to lose him, because he's a seriously classy player.

The 2011-12 Quins squad featured a number of players I thought we would struggle to replace when they retired or left - most notably Nick Evans, Nick Easter and George Lowe - but remarkably Quins have turned up more-or-less direct replacements in Marcus Smith, Alex Dombrandt and Joe Marchant. I'm really interested to see how they step up.

Poorfour

Posts : 4024
Join date : 2011-10-01

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by robbo277 on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:06 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
BamBam wrote:The oh so unbiased Simon Thomas has pointed out that there are 4 or 5 Welsh qualified players in that team. Does this game lock them in for England before they try and get their grubby mitts on any of our players?

As its a non cap "England XV" rather than the designated  senior national or next senior national side side I'd assume not.

I think the rules go one further than that, and it would have to be one designated senior national side against another. For instance, all this stuff with Mike Haley playing for the Saxons but not against a designated second side. Whatever England called their side going out there on Sunday and regardless of whether they give out caps, the Barbarians are a club side and as such it wouldn't be a capture game.

I guess it would theoretically be possible for England to cap this game and Marchant, for instance, to end up with an England cap and a Wales cap?

robbo277

Posts : 3998
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by GeordieFalcon on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:18 pm

So im assuming this is a side where few will even remotely come in to contenton for the WC squad.

GeordieFalcon

Posts : 21141
Join date : 2011-03-31
Location : Newcastle

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Cumbrian on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:49 pm

I wouldn't have thought so, especially if they take a shellacking.

You need to run a few hypothetical situations to see where we are weakest.

Front-row seem unlikely to challenge for world cup spots. Maybe Dunn or Taylor if Harley or George get injured? Possibly Obano if there is a loose-head injury crisis?

Can't see any second-rowers challenging.

Maybe Smith? If Ford or Farrell get injured? Cipriani still ahead of him, but who knows?
Cumbrian
Cumbrian

Posts : 4177
Join date : 2011-01-28
Age : 35
Location : Bath

Back to top Go down

England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad? - Page 10 Empty Re: England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 10 of 14 Previous  1 ... 6 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum