England's strength in depth...and who makes their RWC squad?

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Post by miaow on Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:52 pm

First topic message reminder :

Mirroring the thread I did for Wales, England have had huge strength in depth for the last 9 years or so. Under Lancaster it seemed to be a hindrance as much as a strength, with no-one really leaping out to claim key positions, cycling through the likes of Twelvetrees, Burrell, Barritt etc. in the centre.

Now, it feels like England do have some real test quality players who have grabbed shirts with both hands and are nailed on: the Vunipolas, Tuilagi, Lawes, and latterly players like May, Curry, and Underhill.

With that in mind...who makes England's 31 man squad based on who's fit and available (as well as who's out injured)? If you want to include who you'd personally pick as well that'd be interesting, but who do England fans think will be in that squad in Japan?

Also, who is in the starting 23 and who are the 6-7 reserve players who stand a good chance of a call up?

I've done it for Wales in the Wales thread - think it's looking very settled, with a few first 15 positions up for debate depending on opposition. From the outside England's squad looks a lot less settled or certain.

Squads ten to be:

17-18 forwards
5 Props
2 or 3 Hookers
5 Second rows
5 or 6 Back rowers

13-14 Backs
3 Scrum-halves
2-3 Fly-halves
3 Centres
5 Back 3

So who/what is the current England squad?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:46 am

Do you reckon the warns ups are going to be from the expected squad or a few peripheral guys given a chance to make.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you reckon the warns ups are going to be from the expected squad or a few peripheral guys given a chance to make.

I've been thinking about this too. For the sake of preventing unnecessary injuries, I hope we use the extended squad, but I am not sure we will.

It's pretty ridiculous when you think about it. Our 'warm up' games are one short of a full Six Nations competition, against 2 teams in particular who always play hard against us. Injuries are inevitable and it just seems reckless to me, from both teams.

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Post by Rinsure on Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:50 am

I expect the first two games to feature a wider group of participants, being sharpened up as we move towards the latter two games to feature a predominantly "first choice" twenty-three.

I agree with bluestonevedder though, the potential for injury in what are never "friendly" games does pose something of a risk which EJ will have to manage. That said, we need to go into the tournament match fit and ready to go, so it's something of a balancing act.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:41 am

The convention in warm ups has been to alternate between a near first XV and a squad XV. I dont see any reason that would change much this year.

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you reckon the warns ups are going to be from the expected squad or a few peripheral guys given a chance to make.

The games against Wales will probably be one full strength side against a hopefuls team - with teams wanting to win at home I assume it will be the away team that is "weakened".

Against Ireland and Italy I suspect one game to be close to full strength with some experimentation of differing permutations, the other at full strength. Not sure which way round it will be.

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Post by robbo277 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you reckon the warns ups are going to be from the expected squad or a few peripheral guys given a chance to make.

The games against Wales will probably be one full strength side against a hopefuls team - with teams wanting to win at home I assume it will be the away team that is "weakened".

Against Ireland and Italy I suspect one game to be close to full strength with some experimentation of differing permutations, the other at full strength. Not sure which way round it will be.

I'd assume Wales and Ireland at Twickenham would see the stronger squads.

Jones also went on record of saying he'll decide his squad the day after the first Wales game and that only 3 spots are up for grabs. See: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/eddie-jones-decision-just-made-16538107

With this in mind, will he be giving chances against Wales at Twickenham? Or will he play 12 first choicers with 3 wildcards trying to force their way in?

Looking at Carlos's squad on the previous page, I'd guess the 3 spots up for grab are:

1. Jones will know how he wants to balance his front row options, but if he is to take 9 front row, one question he'll still have to answer is at loosehead. Genge or Moon as the third choice will probably be the question. With Mako out injured, could we see those two share the game and Marler return a week later? Could we also see a lot of Cole, Williams and Singleton as Eddie tries to rule front row players in or out?

2. With the second choice scrum-half question not yet settled, could we see Youngs left out so Jones can look at more of Spencer and Heinz?

3. The final question must be over a back 3 spot? Brown maybe? But again, he probably doesn't need to see much Brown, maybe just have a look at one of the alternatives?

Potential 23 for Wales:

Moon, Cowan-Dickie, Williams, Itoje, Kruis, Wilson, Underhill, Vunipola
Spencer, Farrell, May, Tuilagi, Slade, Daly, Watson
Singleton, Genge, Cole, Lawes, Curry, Heinz, Ford, McConnohie

Then a week 2 team of:

Marler, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Lawes, Shields, Curry, Wilson
Youngs, Ford, Nowell, Te'o, Joseph, Cokanasiga, Daly

Would be two strong line-ups and give everyone a run-out over the first two weeks.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:57 pm

England's fixtures will be officiated by: Paul Williams - (NZR) (England v Tonga), Nic Berry - (RA) (England v USA), Nigel Owens - (WRU) (England v Argentina), Jaco Peyper - (SARU) (England v France). From the rfu site.

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Post by Sharkey06 on Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:08 am

I think there are big questions marks around Mako - someone who is 19st+ who has had his number of ankle/knee/etc injuries has to be an issue. And would Marler come back if there were not serious doubts around Mako?

In the same way Billy hasn't looked the same since his broken arms. It has to be a worry for England that our best two ball carriers are both nursing injuries.

After George and LCD (who is pretty inexperienced), we have little to no experience at hooker. I therefore think EJ will go with just 2 hookers and fiddle a prop there if needs be.

I have to say I am not feeling confident about England. We had a disappointing 6 Nations, we don't have a settled team and I couldn't tell you what our game plan is. 2007 wasn't much better, but we had the characters to drag us into the final and all but win it. I don't see those same characters in this squad (unfortunately).


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Post by Rugby Fan on Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:21 am

Sharkey06 wrote:..I have to say I am not feeling confident about England.  We had a disappointing 6 Nations, we don't have a settled team and I couldn't tell you what our game plan is.  2007 wasn't much better, but we had the characters to drag us into the final and all but win it.  I don't see those same characters in this squad (unfortunately).
We are in a better place than 2007, which ended up coming down to the muscle memory of a team with players more used to winning than losing. Perhaps a more interesting question, is whether we are in a better place than Lancaster's squad. Our failure four years ago means we ended up a different perspective on that team but we had high hopes before the tournament.

Looking at the team below, which lost to Wales in 2015, a number will be starters in Japan but they are mostly improved players now - Farrell, May and Vunipola in particular.

Mike Brown; Anthony Watson, Brad Barritt, Sam Burgess, Jonny May, Owen Farrell, Ben Youngs; Joe Marler, Tom Youngs, Dan Cole, Geoff Parling, Courtney Lawes, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Billy Vunipola.

Lancaster got England playing well as a team, who nevertheless fell short in decisive matches even before the last World Cup. Jones managed to get England winning those same encounters in his first season but decided the team needed to evolve, and it hasn't been smooth. Consequently, we are going into this tournament with a similar patchy record as four years ago. One difference is, we probably have a greater number of players who would make a World XV, or at least would be regarded as world top 3 in their position, than in 2015.

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Post by robbo277 on Sat Jul 20, 2019 7:55 pm

Billy looked fine for Saracens in the finals games, I think we’ll see him back to his best.

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Post by king_carlos on Sun Jul 21, 2019 9:13 am

In the 6 Nations I honestly felt that Billy being quieter was a case of teams defending against him fantastically.

I thought Tom Curry had his best game in an England shirt in that game in Cardiff but for the final 30 minutes that decided the game Navidi and Tipuric were simply outstanding in defence. It was a comeback in terms of personal performance from the Wales flankers compared to the first half where Tipuric was out of position for the Curry try and Navidi made a couple of handling errors. They led a defensive onslaught in the second half though.

England responded by dropping Billy V back to return kicks but the Wales kick chase game, largely from Liam Williams, shut that plan down as well.

Billy V was outstanding in the Sarries run-in against very good sides so he certainly hasn't lost any physicality after the arm breaks.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:53 pm

England have announced a 38 man squad for a 12 day training camp in Treviso. Flying off to a heat camp at this stage does seem a bit counter-intuitive with the impending heatwave, but they leave today and will return around 3rd August - giving them a week before the first Wales game.

I'd therefore suggest that anyone not in this camp would be unlikely to play against Wales and, if Jones is going to name his World Cup squad the day after the Wales game, then he's basically picking 31 from the guys at this camp.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-mens-squad-for-training-camp-in-italy

Headlines -
- No Moon as Jones trims his loosehead options to 3. Mako and Marler will travel
- Still no Hartley
- Ewels continues in the squad - potentially covering Kruis' injury
- Still only 6 back row including Ludlam and no specialist cover at 8
- Spencer and Heinz continue as deputy 9s
- No Cipriani
- Marchant gets a first call-up this summer, potentially covering an injury in the centres?
- Brown is retained and will go to the camp as one of 7 back 3 options (including McConnochie)

Vunipola, Marler, Genge
George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton
Sinckler, Cole, Williams
Itoje, Launchbury, Kruis, Lawes, Ewels
Wilson, Shields, Underhill, Curry, Ludlam
Vunipola
Youngs, Spencer, Heinz
Farrell, Ford
Tuilagi, Te'o, Francis
Joseph, Slade, Marchant
May, Nowell, McConnochie, Watson, Cokanasiga, Daly, Brown

If I were cutting 7 names now, I'd go with: Ewels, Ludlam, Heinz, Francis, Marchant and McConnochie without losing too much sleep. I'm not sure if we need 9 front row, but with question marks over Mako's injury I'd be reluctant to cut more than one. Potentially Singleton, Cole or Williams to miss out as the 7th. Depends which of them have any versatility.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:59 pm

I like him going with Genge over moon.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:06 pm

robbo277 wrote:England have announced a 38 man squad for a 12 day training camp in Treviso. Flying off to a heat camp at this stage does seem a bit counter-intuitive with the impending heatwave, but they leave today and will return around 3rd August - giving them a week before the first Wales game.

I'd therefore suggest that anyone not in this camp would be unlikely to play against Wales and, if Jones is going to name his World Cup squad the day after the Wales game, then he's basically picking 31 from the guys at this camp.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-mens-squad-for-training-camp-in-italy

Headlines -
- No Moon as Jones trims his loosehead options to 3. Mako and Marler will travel
- Still no Hartley
- Ewels continues in the squad - potentially covering Kruis' injury
- Still only 6 back row including Ludlam and no specialist cover at 8
- Spencer and Heinz continue as deputy 9s
- No Cipriani
- Marchant gets a first call-up this summer, potentially covering an injury in the centres?
- Brown is retained and will go to the camp as one of 7 back 3 options (including McConnochie)

Vunipola, Marler, Genge
George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton
Sinckler, Cole, Williams
Itoje, Launchbury, Kruis, Lawes, Ewels
Wilson, Shields, Underhill, Curry, Ludlam
Vunipola
Youngs, Spencer, Heinz
Farrell, Ford
Tuilagi, Te'o, Francis
Joseph, Slade, Marchant
May, Nowell, McConnochie, Watson, Cokanasiga, Daly, Brown

If I were cutting 7 names now, I'd go with: Ewels, Ludlam, Heinz, Francis, Marchant and McConnochie without losing too much sleep. I'm not sure if we need 9 front row, but with question marks over Mako's injury I'd be reluctant to cut more than one. Potentially Singleton, Cole or Williams to miss out as the 7th. Depends which of them have any versatility.

I really appreciate you doing the 'headlines' bit Robbo. It stops me quickly reading through the squad and missing key observations. Can you please get hired by the BBC?

I also agree with the bit in bold. I'm feeling more sure of back 3 options that Brown is back in contention. I really hope he travels.

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Post by robbo277 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:13 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
robbo277 wrote:England have announced a 38 man squad for a 12 day training camp in Treviso. Flying off to a heat camp at this stage does seem a bit counter-intuitive with the impending heatwave, but they leave today and will return around 3rd August - giving them a week before the first Wales game.

I'd therefore suggest that anyone not in this camp would be unlikely to play against Wales and, if Jones is going to name his World Cup squad the day after the Wales game, then he's basically picking 31 from the guys at this camp.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/england-mens-squad-for-training-camp-in-italy

Headlines -
- No Moon as Jones trims his loosehead options to 3. Mako and Marler will travel
- Still no Hartley
- Ewels continues in the squad - potentially covering Kruis' injury
- Still only 6 back row including Ludlam and no specialist cover at 8
- Spencer and Heinz continue as deputy 9s
- No Cipriani
- Marchant gets a first call-up this summer, potentially covering an injury in the centres?
- Brown is retained and will go to the camp as one of 7 back 3 options (including McConnochie)

Vunipola, Marler, Genge
George, Cowan-Dickie, Singleton
Sinckler, Cole, Williams
Itoje, Launchbury, Kruis, Lawes, Ewels
Wilson, Shields, Underhill, Curry, Ludlam
Vunipola
Youngs, Spencer, Heinz
Farrell, Ford
Tuilagi, Te'o, Francis
Joseph, Slade, Marchant
May, Nowell, McConnochie, Watson, Cokanasiga, Daly, Brown

If I were cutting 7 names now, I'd go with: Ewels, Ludlam, Heinz, Francis, Marchant and McConnochie without losing too much sleep. I'm not sure if we need 9 front row, but with question marks over Mako's injury I'd be reluctant to cut more than one. Potentially Singleton, Cole or Williams to miss out as the 7th. Depends which of them have any versatility.

I really appreciate you doing the 'headlines' bit Robbo. It stops me quickly reading through the squad and missing key observations. Can you please get hired by the BBC?

I also agree with the bit in bold. I'm feeling more sure of back 3 options that Brown is back in contention. I really hope he travels.

My biggest gripe with these squads are that they are in alphabetical order and then I always have to shuffle them about to get them into positional order so I can actually understand who is in and who is out. Thought it'd then be handy to share that once I'd gone through the effort of doing it!

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Post by BamBam on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:05 pm

Think we're screwed lads. Ford and Cipriani apparently aren't good enough for international level, so we've only got the decent but pretty underwhelming Farrell as a 10 option.

I'm waving the white flag

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:09 pm

BamBam wrote:Think we're screwed lads. Ford and Cipriani apparently aren't good enough for international level, so we've only got the decent but pretty underwhelming Farrell as a 10 option.

I'm waving the white flag


warning

You have now put Dido in my head. That earworm will last all day Sad

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Post by BamBam on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:10 pm

I can only profoundly apologise to your eardrums

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:12 pm

robbo277 wrote:
If I were cutting 7 names now, I'd go with: Ewels, Ludlam, Heinz, Francis, Marchant and McConnochie without losing too much sleep. I'm not sure if we need 9 front row, but with question marks over Mako's injury I'd be reluctant to cut more than one. Potentially Singleton, Cole or Williams to miss out as the 7th. Depends which of them have any versatility.

I agree with the six you choose to drop. The seventh would probably be between the front row and the back 3.

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Post by LordDowlais on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:25 pm

BamBam wrote:Think we're screwed lads. Ford and Cipriani apparently aren't good enough for international level, so we've only got the decent but pretty underwhelming Farrell as a 10 option.

I'm waving the white flag

It would seem that Eddie Jones agrees as well, BamBam and Uncle Eddie must be on the same wave length. Laugh

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/49071208

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon Jul 22, 2019 4:32 pm

That doesn't make sense ld. You do know theres a limit on world cup squads?

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Post by Pie on Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:09 pm

Watson and Joseph are back from nowhere, as is Brown. Makes no sense. He's doing a Sir Clive in 05. Its all well and good having this infinite strength in depth but it doesn't aid in selecting a team to back and if he is going to rotate guys back in who haven't figured for at least a year then you're effectively starting from scratch come RWC warm ups.

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Post by Cyril on Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:26 pm

How does it not make any sense? This is a training camp. The three players you mention have all performed well for England, have a good number of caps and some or all of them could slot in quickly if required. How is that starting from scratch. Odd comment.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:39 pm

Who misses out now that Watson and Joseph are back? Difficult to leave both those guys out. Brown would definitely miss out for me though with all the other options available.

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Post by BamBam on Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:48 pm

Joseph would always have been in the squad at least if fit, and I think Lozowski had his spot in the 6N while he was injured. JJ definitely my preference there

Watson or Brown is probably the big decision in the back 3, assuming May, Daly, Nowell and Cokanasiga are nailed

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Post by Pie on Tue Jul 23, 2019 2:24 am

Cyril wrote:How does it not make any sense? This is a training camp. The three players you mention have all performed well for England, have a good number of caps and some or all of them could slot in quickly if required. How is that starting from scratch. Odd comment.

Not as strange as saying you're going to leave and then not doing so

Anyway, its strange because it suggests he isn't picking form players, Cipriani excision and their inclusion proves that. Thats what is odd.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:35 am

Was Marler’s retirement all hot air from him and Jones? He was keeping Mako out of the team at one point, could have toured with the Lions if available - I don’t remember if he was.

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Post by Pie on Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:42 am

Uncle Eddies panicking having a guy back in who openly admits he would play up to get binned off selection. Rising Sons? More like Setting Sun.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue Jul 23, 2019 9:23 am

Pie wrote:... its strange because it suggests he isn't picking form players...
Jones evidently is picking on form, though. Mako was in rare form before his injury, and all the leading Saracens players who usually start for England had good seasons. In particular, Kruis is probably ahead of Launcbury and Lawes through a return to his 2016 form. Meanwhile, May is a leading contender for wing through consistent form, even as Leicester struggled. Arguably, Tigers only managed to stay up because George Ford had such a strong season. In the back row, Wilson, Curry & Underhill have all established themselves through their performances.

Whether Jones is using that criteria for every position is a matter of opinion but it wouldn't be a surprise if he wasn't. No coach ever selects his team purely on form. If Steve Hansen was doing that, he'd have shut the door on SBW a while ago, rather than watching to see if he can get fit.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:38 am

Pie wrote:Watson and Joseph are back from nowhere, as is Brown. Makes no sense. He's doing a Sir Clive in 05. Its all well and good having this infinite strength in depth but it doesn't aid in selecting a team to back and if he is going to rotate guys back in who haven't figured for at least a year then you're effectively starting from scratch come RWC warm ups.

Joseph and Brown both featured in training squads during the 6Ns - so not coming back from nowhere. Watson missed a year with an achilles injury but returned for Bath at the end of last season. why would you not feature a guy who was prominent for the Lions in your training squad to at least see if they are back to their best? Were Wales wrong to have Faletau in their squad despite not having been fit to play for his country for over a year? Of course not. The whole point of big(ish) squads is to look at all players.

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:00 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Pie wrote:Watson and Joseph are back from nowhere, as is Brown. Makes no sense. He's doing a Sir Clive in 05. Its all well and good having this infinite strength in depth but it doesn't aid in selecting a team to back and if he is going to rotate guys back in who haven't figured for at least a year then you're effectively starting from scratch come RWC warm ups.

Joseph and Brown both featured in training squads during the 6Ns - so not coming back from nowhere. Watson missed a year with an achilles injury but returned for Bath at the end of last season. why would you not feature a guy who was prominent for the Lions in your training squad to at least see if they are back to their best? Were Wales wrong to have Faletau in their squad despite not having been fit to play for his country for over a year? Of course not. The whole point of big(ish) squads is to look at all players.

Sounds sensible to me. Watson is certainly someone I would worry about as an opposition fan.

Likewise Cipriani, maybe that’s where those of us who are not England fans get a bit confused in the England coaching teams logic on selection. Cipriani is so often voted best player, whether for the season or mom...!

That said, in Eddie jones and his selectors defence, I hear Cipriani is not great at communicating with his team mates when he sees things that they don’t and can be quite critical of their mistakes. This is something I heard from a friend who is a wasps man through and through.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:13 am

maestegmafia wrote:That said, in Eddie jones and his selectors defence, I hear Cipriani is not great at communicating with his team mates when he sees things that they don’t and can be quite critical of their mistakes. This is something I heard from a friend who is a wasps man through and through.



The other thing I suspect they may have an issue with is that he will drift around in the back line in attack, both changing position when at first receiver and also moving further out. This can cause serious problems when playing with people who do not see you daily as the scrum half is always having to search for who to pass to, while other players have to fill in. With England playing their second receiver, Slade, at 13 last season should Cips drift out in the line we either end up with a lump at first receiver or Slade has to rush inwards.

Cipriani is a mighty fine player - but the attack has to always be built fully around him. Eddie will select Farrell at 10 for the big games (and to be honest most international coaches would select Farrell ahead of Cipriani).

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:36 am

LondonTiger wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:That said, in Eddie jones and his selectors defence, I hear Cipriani is not great at communicating with his team mates when he sees things that they don’t and can be quite critical of their mistakes. This is something I heard from a friend who is a wasps man through and through.



The other thing I suspect they may have an issue with is that he will drift around in the back line in attack, both changing position when at first receiver and also moving further out. This can cause serious problems when playing with people who do not see you daily as the scrum half is always having to search for who to pass to, while other players have to fill in. With England playing their second receiver, Slade, at 13 last season should Cips drift out in the line we either end up with a lump at first receiver or Slade has to rush inwards.

Cipriani is a mighty fine player - but the attack has to always be built fully around him. Eddie will select Farrell at 10 for the big games (and to be honest most international coaches would select Farrell ahead of Cipriani).

I don’t disagree with your points at all.

Though I think I would still have kept him in the squad as an impact player for the bench.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:43 am

I am surprised he was not kept around teh Squad, instead of Francis, to enable him to at least have practice with teh guys in case there is a major injury to Farrell or Ford. Eddie has decided Ford is his second choice - critics say because he is a yes man - and it should be remembered that he rescued a draw for England last game out after we had completely imploded. (I know that Scotland came back well, but no team should give up a 31 point lead).

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:26 pm

It is possible, as Phil on the Eggchasers podcast suggested, that Cipriani doesn't meet fitness targets, and Jones wants him to work on those, so he's at the standard he wants, should injury mean he's needed.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:31 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:It is possible, as Phil on the Eggchasers podcast suggested, that Cipriani doesn't meet fitness targets, and Jones wants him to work on those, so he's at the standard he wants, should injury mean he's needed.

If true, perhaps a damning indictment of his professionalism?

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Post by Rugby Fan on Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:45 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:It is possible, as Phil on the Eggchasers podcast suggested, that Cipriani doesn't meet fitness targets, and Jones wants him to work on those, so he's at the standard he wants, should injury mean he's needed.

If true, perhaps a damning indictment of his professionalism?
I don't think it's necessarily a question of him slacking in training at Gloucester. It may be that Jones wants him to have a fitness string to his bow which he currently lacks.

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Post by GeordieFalcon on Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:02 pm

It doesnt matter....Ford and Farrell will be the 10's. Slade can cover in emergency.

Post WC, Cipriani would be gone anyway as Marcus Smith will be leading a host of fantastic young 10's coming through. Mallins etc are sensational.

Cipriani is gone, bored of hearing about him...move on...next.


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Post by robbo277 on Tue Jul 23, 2019 3:58 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:It is possible, as Phil on the Eggchasers podcast suggested, that Cipriani doesn't meet fitness targets, and Jones wants him to work on those, so he's at the standard he wants, should injury mean he's needed.

If true, perhaps a damning indictment of his professionalism?
I don't think it's necessarily a question of him slacking in training at Gloucester. It may be that Jones wants him to have a fitness string to his bow which he currently lacks.

I'd agree with LT if this does turn out to be true.

In the Rising Sons video, Jones praises the fitness and condition of his players coming into camp. I assume they have all had a message of the levels they need to maintain in their off season so they can hit the ground running. If (and it is unsubstantiated) Cipriani has been given a fitness level to reach and hasn't reached it, then it says more about him than it does about Eddie for not picking him.

Ultimately, we just don't know enough until one of them speaks publicly to fully judge.

Cipriani was never making it into my World Cup squad without some contoritioning and leaving us short elsewhere. However as LT I would have had him in this training squad over Piers Francis or Joe Marchant to keep him in touch as a potential injury replacement.

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Post by Exiledinborders on Tue Jul 23, 2019 4:51 pm

robbo277 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:It is possible, as Phil on the Eggchasers podcast suggested, that Cipriani doesn't meet fitness targets, and Jones wants him to work on those, so he's at the standard he wants, should injury mean he's needed.

If true, perhaps a damning indictment of his professionalism?
I don't think it's necessarily a question of him slacking in training at Gloucester. It may be that Jones wants him to have a fitness string to his bow which he currently lacks.

I'd agree with LT if this does turn out to be true.

In the Rising Sons video, Jones praises the fitness and condition of his players coming into camp. I assume they have all had a message of the levels they need to maintain in their off season so they can hit the ground running. If (and it is unsubstantiated) Cipriani has been given a fitness level to reach and hasn't reached it, then it says more about him than it does about Eddie for not picking him.

Ultimately, we just don't know enough until one of them speaks publicly to fully judge.

Cipriani was never making it into my World Cup squad without some contoritioning and leaving us short elsewhere. However as LT I would have had him in this training squad over Piers Francis or Joe Marchant to keep him in touch as a potential injury replacement.
It is fine being superbly fit but that does not give a player talent. Over the years England have suffered from picking players who
1) work hard
2) never disagree with the manager mainly because they have no ideas of their own
3) lack talent

When it comes the big games these players fail because they cannot make decisions or have the ability to do something special or even different. Farrell’s inability to change tactics in SA and 6N is a case in point.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Jul 23, 2019 5:00 pm

Farrell works hard. I find it hard to even give a 2nd thought to the fact he'd be a yes man or lacks talent.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:53 pm

BamBam wrote:I can only profoundly apologise to your eardrums

Imo 'I Think We're Screwed Lads' is one of Dido's top songs.

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue Jul 23, 2019 10:39 pm

LondonTiger wrote: no team should give up a 31 point lead).

It’s happened a number of times with Farrell at ten. He is a very talented player but I do feel he sometimes feels the pressure and it falls apart for him.

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Post by Cyril on Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:16 pm

It happened once. Please give other examples.

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Post by Rugby Fan on Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:17 am

robbo277 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:It is possible, as Phil on the Eggchasers podcast suggested, that Cipriani doesn't meet fitness targets, and Jones wants him to work on those, so he's at the standard he wants, should injury mean he's needed.

If true, perhaps a damning indictment of his professionalism?
I don't think it's necessarily a question of him slacking in training at Gloucester. It may be that Jones wants him to have a fitness string to his bow which he currently lacks.

I'd agree with LT if this does turn out to be true.
I suppose I'm trying to square why some people - including Dave Flatman - still expect to see Cipriani play in August. You'd think it makes more sense to have a potential squad player actually training with the squad, getting to know other players. It may be that Jones is considering replicating the conditions of a mid-tournament call-up by sending him back to his club for S&C, then calling him up a short notice in a few weeks.

If he was just being cut, then it's hard to understand what was happening when he was named along with Watson and Underhill as a player working on fitness with his club.

I'm not as concerned as Geordie over the fuss being made about Cipriani. It's understandable, since the announcements about him have been different to the non-selection of, say Robshaw.

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Post by Pie on Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:51 am

Cyril wrote:It happened once. Please give other examples.

Come on Cyril you know all about feeling the pressure and having a little tantrum now and then

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Post by Cyril on Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:52 am

Pie, please just concentrate on the topic and add to the discussion or ignore my posts.

Maestegmafia, please reply to my post above and, as a mod, keep this thread on track. Pie seems hell-bent on derailing it. Thanks.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:26 am

Cipriani was made famous as he followed Wilkinson played great screwed up then had some run in with buses. Flamboyant players will always get more column inches than (better) players like robshaw.

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Post by Cyril on Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:38 am

True enough. It’s no shame to be lower on the pecking order than Farrell and Ford who ate both top class (and provide different options). Jones, like most coaches, will probably opt for cover at Fly half to come from another position eg rather than having another dedicated player in that position. Cipriani’s best hope has always been related to whether he can also cover full back. With Watson fit that chance looks minimal now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:49 am

I think it's a real positive that players I this squad do offer good cover in other positions. Laws itoje at 6. Shields lock. Wilson 8. Underhill 6. Farrell 12. Tuilagi 12 13. Daly wing full back centre. Watson as you say possibly Nowell at 15. Even joseph at wing.
When you start to look at the combos and cover cipriani looks to be considered only at 10 and then with Ford its first choice injury cover.

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