Pro14 is dead...

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Post by No9 on Sat 13 Apr 2019, 1:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well we are nearing the end of the normal season and going into the knock out stages, and thanks to Premier Sports I can know say with confidence that my earlier prediction has materialised and the day has killed the Pro14.

They promised 1 game on FreeSports every week. Well unless you follow Zebre or the Kings you’ve not had that game. The Ospreys have not had one game shown on FreeSports. As for free to air coverage on S4C that has also been hit or miss, with them banning the red button English cometary, and again covering games with little interest.

So , since the conception of the league, this is the first season I’ve not been able to follow with interest. No (little) live coverage of games, no magazine show I’ve been able to watch to keep up with the league. I’ve managed to get to minimum Ospreys home games this season, due to family commitments. Basically, only rugby I’ve been able to follow has been the 6 Nations.

Thanks, Pro14, you played a stormer selling out. Enjoy the cash injection it brought, as it won’t last...

furious

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:05 am

I don't know, that's why I'm saying, I wonder why ?

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Post by profitius on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:08 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Constantly running down the league could be seen as offensive I guess. To those who follow it and have invested time, money, energy into it.  Perhaps that’s why nearly every poster (but not all) seems at odds with you, LD.

Please tell me how I am running the league down ? In fact I can show you where I have said I like the Pro14. All I am doing is telling the truth, it is not going well in Wales, and putting it on pay per view TV has contributed to it not doing well.

That is not me running the league down. I am sorry if the truth offends you. OK

So saying the league is dying yet providing nothing to back it up is truth?

It's very Trumpesque


I posted a link and an article from the national media source in Wales agreeing with what I am saying, yet you think that journalist is lying, so I do not know how much more proof I can provide without you saying it's somebody telling lies. Rolling Eyes

Someone telling a story isn't proof it's dying, it's just proof of what Oracle is saying about you running the league down

You don't know what proof you can provide of the league dying? I wonder what would prove it? I mean it's not like there are numerous metrics that would show that less people are watching games in different forms or anything like that Rolling Eyes

Premier Sports do not show their viewing figures for the Pro14, I have looked. I wonder why ?


Information = money. They don't want competitors knowing their business.
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:08 am

No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:21 am

marty2086 wrote:No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

Have a look for yourself if you do not want to believe me. I tried to look to compare the viewing figures with BBC Wales when they had the Pro14.

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:23 am

LordDowlais wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Constantly running down the league could be seen as offensive I guess. To those who follow it and have invested time, money, energy into it.  Perhaps that’s why nearly every poster (but not all) seems at odds with you, LD.

Please tell me how I am running the league down ? In fact I can show you where I have said I like the Pro14. All I am doing is telling the truth, it is not going well in Wales, and putting it on pay per view TV has contributed to it not doing well.

That is not me running the league down. I am sorry if the truth offends you. OK

Every topic you start is some WOL hit job on the league, with some spurious anecdotal evidence, that is rebuffed by other Welsh supporters on this forum.
It's not the truth your telling LD, it's your own opinion that you believe to be truth, and when others disagree your very quick to whip out the victim card, and play all offended.
It's a little tiresome after all these years.

You are talking as if I am alone in my views......

Just because it does not fit your narrative it does not mean I am wrong either, very strange it's my opinion of the truth, when I am also being agreed with the national media here in Wales.

I get called all sorts of names and insults on this forum, yet that is OK, I need to stop playing the victim, oh well.

No, a man who is a journalist is agreeing with you. That’s an individual. If I got a job as a WOL journalist tomorrow and posted an article in the WOL stating that the league is fine and attendances are up on the pre-regional figures (which they are by the way) would you then change your stance completely and say ‘the national media outlet says he league is fine so it is fine’? I’d hope not as you would be basing it in just on one journalist’s view which is inherently biased. It’s like believing everything Katie Hopkins says in the Daily Mail.
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:23 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

Have a look for yourself if you do not want to believe me. I tried to look to compare the viewing figures with BBC Wales when they had the Pro14.

And why didn't you check S4Cs viewing figures?

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Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:26 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I found it offensive, as you were obviously trying to score points on my behalf. You were taking the mickey out of me.


Found what offensive Headscratch

Neither of these guys posted anything that a reasonable persons could find offensive.
If you are such a sensitive soul maybe this forum is not for you

He was taking the mickey out of me.

Anyway, if that is the case, how is me saying that somebody is talking "nonsense" offensive ? Is the word nonsense an offensive word now ? Because that is what I have been red penned for.

Anyway, I will say no more on this, as it is derailing the topic.

Trouble is you used the word prat not nonsense.
Unless you quote the exact post that you found offensive you are avoiding the issue

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Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:29 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Constantly running down the league could be seen as offensive I guess. To those who follow it and have invested time, money, energy into it.  Perhaps that’s why nearly every poster (but not all) seems at odds with you, LD.

Please tell me how I am running the league down ? In fact I can show you where I have said I like the Pro14. All I am doing is telling the truth, it is not going well in Wales, and putting it on pay per view TV has contributed to it not doing well.

That is not me running the league down. I am sorry if the truth offends you. OK

So saying the league is dying yet providing nothing to back it up is truth?

It's very Trumpesque


I posted a link and an article from the national media source in Wales agreeing with what I am saying, yet you think that journalist is lying, so I do not know how much more proof I can provide without you saying it's somebody telling lies. Rolling Eyes

Someone telling a story isn't proof it's dying, it's just proof of what Oracle is saying about you running the league down

You don't know what proof you can provide of the league dying? I wonder what would prove it? I mean it's not like there are numerous metrics that would show that less people are watching games in different forms or anything like that Rolling Eyes

Premier Sports do not show their viewing figures for the Pro14, I have looked. I wonder why ?

The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:38 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

Have a look for yourself if you do not want to believe me. I tried to look to compare the viewing figures with BBC Wales when they had the Pro14.

And why didn't you check S4Cs viewing figures?

I do. Last time I checked Paw Patrol was more popular than the Pro14 on S4C. probably because the red button option for the English language has been taken away from the Pro14 games.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:39 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:I found it offensive, as you were obviously trying to score points on my behalf. You were taking the mickey out of me.


Found what offensive Headscratch

Neither of these guys posted anything that a reasonable persons could find offensive.
If you are such a sensitive soul maybe this forum is not for you

He was taking the mickey out of me.

Anyway, if that is the case, how is me saying that somebody is talking "nonsense" offensive ? Is the word nonsense an offensive word now ? Because that is what I have been red penned for.

Anyway, I will say no more on this, as it is derailing the topic.

Trouble is you used the word prat not nonsense.
Unless you quote the exact post that you found offensive  you are avoiding the issue

Nope, you need to check, Rodders was definitely punishing me for saying Oracle is speaking nonsense. Please check again.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:44 am

geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:45 am

The Oracle wrote:No, a man who is a journalist is agreeing with you. That’s an individual. If I got a job as a WOL journalist tomorrow and posted an article in the WOL stating that the league is fine and attendances are up on the pre-regional figures (which they are by the way) would you then change your stance completely and say ‘the national media outlet says he league is fine so it is fine’? I’d hope not as you would be basing it in just on one journalist’s view which is inherently biased. It’s like believing everything Katie Hopkins says in the Daily Mail.

So you are saying Delme Parfitt is lying then ?

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Post by Stone Motif on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:47 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

Have a look for yourself if you do not want to believe me. I tried to look to compare the viewing figures with BBC Wales when they had the Pro14.

And why didn't you check S4Cs viewing figures?

I do. Last time I checked Paw Patrol was more popular than the Pro14 on S4C. probably because the red button option for the English language has been taken away from the Pro14 games.

There is not a single child under the age of six who does not love Ryder et al. Hardly a valid comparitor to a niche sport with a largely adult audience.
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Post by Stone Motif on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:48 am

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:No, a man who is a journalist is agreeing with you. That’s an individual. If I got a job as a WOL journalist tomorrow and posted an article in the WOL stating that the league is fine and attendances are up on the pre-regional figures (which they are by the way) would you then change your stance completely and say ‘the national media outlet says he league is fine so it is fine’? I’d hope not as you would be basing it in just on one journalist’s view which is inherently biased. It’s like believing everything Katie Hopkins says in the Daily Mail.

So you are saying Delme Parfitt is lying then ?

Why don't you shout across the office and ask him, Andy?
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:49 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

Have a look for yourself if you do not want to believe me. I tried to look to compare the viewing figures with BBC Wales when they had the Pro14.

And why didn't you check S4Cs viewing figures?

I do. Last time I checked Paw Patrol was more popular than the Pro14 on S4C. probably because the red button option for the English language has been taken away from the Pro14 games.

And how do they compare to the Pro14 on BBC Wales?

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Post by Stone Motif on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

Righto. Funny how the crowds at these prem games look about three strong isn't it? A third of whom are canines.
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:52 am

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

Principality Premiership games are usually only attended by a few hundred fans

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-6280911/BBC-blunder-Website-forced-remove-Welsh-rugby-highlights-adding-FAKE-crowd-noise.html

It's in a national newspaper so must be true

So pay up!!

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:55 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

Have a look for yourself if you do not want to believe me. I tried to look to compare the viewing figures with BBC Wales when they had the Pro14.

And why didn't you check S4Cs viewing figures?

I do. Last time I checked Paw Patrol was more popular than the Pro14 on S4C. probably because the red button option for the English language has been taken away from the Pro14 games.

And how do they compare to the Pro14 on BBC Wales?

I don't know.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:56 am

Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

Righto. Funny how the crowds at these prem games look about three strong isn't it? A third of whom are canines.


Yeh righto. Your knowledge on the Welsh prem is the same as it is with anything you type on here. Zilch. Go and find mikey he likes to argue with you. Rolling Eyes

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:56 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:No the clear implication is they are trying to hide something, who said they don't anyway?

Have a look for yourself if you do not want to believe me. I tried to look to compare the viewing figures with BBC Wales when they had the Pro14.

And why didn't you check S4Cs viewing figures?

I do. Last time I checked Paw Patrol was more popular than the Pro14 on S4C. probably because the red button option for the English language has been taken away from the Pro14 games.

And how do they compare to the Pro14 on BBC Wales?

I don't know.

You said you were going to compare the Premier Sports figures to BBC Wales, you said you check the S4C viewing figures so how exactly do you not know how the two compare? How were you going to compare Premier to BBC Wales figures without the figures?

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 10:58 am

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

Principality Premiership games are usually only attended by a few hundred fans

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-6280911/BBC-blunder-Website-forced-remove-Welsh-rugby-highlights-adding-FAKE-crowd-noise.html


It's in a national newspaper so must be true

So pay up!!


You keep on about me for posting the same links over and over again. Rolling Eyes

that was for a highlights reel on Scrum V.

I said if you add up ALL the fans who both go to the games, and watch on tele mind.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:00 am

marty2086 wrote:You said you were going to compare the Premier Sports figures to BBC Wales, you said you check the S4C viewing figures so how exactly do you not know how the two compare? How were you going to compare Premier to BBC Wales figures without the figures?

I cannot check the S4C viewing figures for the Pro14 with the BBC, because the BBC does not show the Pro14 anymore. I wanted to compare, but I couldn't.

The S4C openly showed their viewing figures, nobody else does for the Pro14 for whatever reason. I did read somewhere that there was hundreds of thousands of people watching on BBC a few years ago though. I will try and find the article.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:04 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

Principality Premiership games are usually only attended by a few hundred fans

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-6280911/BBC-blunder-Website-forced-remove-Welsh-rugby-highlights-adding-FAKE-crowd-noise.html


It's in a national newspaper so must be true

So pay up!!


You keep on about me for posting the same links over and over again. Rolling Eyes  

that was for a highlights reel on Scrum V.

I said if you add up ALL the fans who both go to the games, and watch on tele mind.

How many fans watch on BBC Wales?

I posted that article once before to highlight the crowd noise issue, I posted it again this time to highlight the numbers because if I didn't post it you'd say I was lying and it also throws your logic back in your face raspberry

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Post by EWT Spoons on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:08 am

Does the Gallagher prem release their viewing numbers?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:16 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Does the Gallagher prem release their viewing numbers?

They are available via BARB, but now you need a subscription. I would be interested as to how many viewers the FTA highlights show gets.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:17 am

EWT Spoons wrote:Does the Gallagher prem release their viewing numbers?

It would be BT who are responsible for that and pretty sure they have to release some to shareholders to show how they are doing

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:18 am

LondonTiger wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:Does the Gallagher prem release their viewing numbers?

They are available via BARB, but now you need a subscription. I would be interested as to how many viewers the FTA highlights show gets.

Is BARB not a sampling system though?

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Post by Stone Motif on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:20 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

Righto. Funny how the crowds at these prem games look about three strong isn't it? A third of whom are canines.


Yeh righto. Your knowledge on the Welsh prem is the same as it is with anything you type on here. Zilch. Go and find mikey he likes to argue with you. Rolling Eyes

Except I'm demonstrably right on everything I post, including the above.

I can practically see Pandy Park from the end of my garden, are you telling me they get more than a few hundred for home fixtures?
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:39 am

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:You said you were going to compare the Premier Sports figures to BBC Wales, you said you check the S4C viewing figures so how exactly do you not know how the two compare? How were you going to compare Premier to BBC Wales figures without the figures?

I cannot check the S4C viewing figures for the Pro14 with the BBC, because the BBC does not show the Pro14 anymore. I wanted to compare, but I couldn't.

The S4C openly showed their viewing figures, nobody else does for the Pro14 for whatever reason. I did read somewhere that there was hundreds of thousands of people watching on BBC a few years ago though. I will try and find the article.

So you were going to compare the Premier Sports figure to one in your head? Erm

FYI In the first three weeks of the season there were more people at Pro14 games in Wales that at WP games over the course of the season

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 11:46 am

marty2086 wrote:So you were going to compare the Premier Sports figure to one in your head? Erm

No, I was going to compare them, but I couldn't, because I could not get any access to them.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 12:09 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
marty2086 wrote:So you were going to compare the Premier Sports figure to one in your head? Erm

No, I was going to compare them, but I couldn't, because I could not get any access to them.

Yet your issue was with not being able to access the Premier Sports figures and implying an issue yet raised no issue with not being able to access BBC Wales? But you definitely aren't negative about the Pro14 or anything Rolling Eyes

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Post by The Oracle on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 12:25 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:No, a man who is a journalist is agreeing with you. That’s an individual. If I got a job as a WOL journalist tomorrow and posted an article in the WOL stating that the league is fine and attendances are up on the pre-regional figures (which they are by the way) would you then change your stance completely and say ‘the national media outlet says he league is fine so it is fine’? I’d hope not as you would be basing it in just on one journalist’s view which is inherently biased. It’s like believing everything Katie Hopkins says in the Daily Mail.

So you are saying Delme Parfitt is lying then ?

Where did I say that? I’m saying you’re taking one man’s experience and perspective and then trying to pass that off as the feeling across the whole nation. Painting everyone with Delme’s brush. If my dad woke up tomorrow and said that the football Premier League was drying because he can no longer watch it as much as he can’t keep up with the subscriptions, that would be his perspective and experience but it would not necessarily be a true reflection of the whole nation.


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Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 12:33 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:The Principality Premiership do not release their attendance figures I wonder why ?
Maybe just maybe it would show how low the crowds are, and horror of horrors highlight more people go to watch the Regions than that tournament

I would wager that between people attending all the Welsh Prem fixtures, and watching on BBC2 Wales, it would not be far off, all the people attending the Pro14 Welsh regions at home, and people watching on Prem Sports in Wales.

But until we can get the info, we would not know. I would be quite happy to be proven wrong though. OK

You are changing the issue and just guessing.
Also you need to add in those watching the Pro14 on S4C to have a complete picture.

Back to the matter in hand do you deny more people watch Pro14 rugby in Wales than watch all Principality Premiership matches?

Simple Yes or No


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Post by geoff999rugby on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 12:51 pm

Quick bit of maths tells you how much more the Pro14 is attended than the Principality Premiership


Taking the average gate of the two worst supported regions this season you get a figure of 12000 spectators

If you assume Merthyr get something like 1500 and the other 7 home games on that weekend average 700
you get a figure of 6400
That figure of 700 is way too high and it is clear that the attendance on a normal weekend at all Principality Premiership games is less than half of that at two regional games.

To somehow claim the Welsh premiership is more popular, than the regional game, is a out and out lie

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Post by miaow on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 1:37 pm

marty2086 wrote:
miaow wrote:The Pro14 may well be dead: https://twitter.com/owenslot/status/1118918387751514112

I can't see CVC buying up a stake in the Pro14 simply to leave it as it is. A merger in the pipeline at some point down the road?

You mean like all the changes they introduced to Formula 1? Or the changes they made to the Premiership?

""Plan for Premiership and Pro14 clubs to compete in grand final after CVC deal

The sale of the major competitions in world rugby to CVC Capital Partners is set to complete its second phase in the next few weeks with the Guinness Pro14 near to settlement of a deal. It will sell just under a third of its commercial shareholding to the private equity firm for about £120 million.

The Pro14 deal will follow the sale of 27 per cent of the Gallagher Premiership, last December, for about £220 million. CVC is also in negotiations to land potentially its biggest asset, which would be a shareholding in the Six Nations.

The deal with the Pro14 has reached exclusivity stage. The Pro14, which is the league structure of the professional clubs of Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy plus two from South Africa, has ceased any negotiations with rival firms. The price, structure and the terms of conditions of the sale have all already been agreed with CVC.

Once CVC has the Pro14 under its wing, alongside the Premiership, it will look to see if the opportunity exists to stage an annual grand final between the champions of the two competitions. This has already been discussed with both the Premiership and its Celtic cousins.

Other possibilities that are being considered include the combining of the two leagues at the end-of-season play-off stages whereby the knockout rounds would see a competition where the top four of each league are pitted against each other."


Seems pretty radical to me, and also somewhat inevitable that, eventually, the two leagues will 'merge' somehow, even if just with the end of season play-offs

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Post by miaow on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 1:40 pm

Also of interest re: broadcasters.

For Pro14 games last season, BBC (I think this is a cross-country thing, not just Wales) used 17 cameras per home televised game. Think it relates to Scotland and NI as well as Wales.

Premier Sports uses 8.

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Post by miaow on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 2:11 pm

Also interesting: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-could-still-two-teams-16131141

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Post by rodders on Sun 21 Apr 2019, 10:10 am

carpet baboon wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
The Oracle wrote:Constantly running down the league could be seen as offensive I guess. To those who follow it and have invested time, money, energy into it.  Perhaps that’s why nearly every poster (but not all) seems at odds with you, LD.

Please tell me how I am running the league down ? In fact I can show you where I have said I like the Pro14. All I am doing is telling the truth, it is not going well in Wales, and putting it on pay per view TV has contributed to it not doing well.

That is not me running the league down. I am sorry if the truth offends you. OK

Every topic you start is some WOL hit job on the league, with some spurious anecdotal evidence, that is rebuffed by other Welsh supporters on this forum.
It's not the truth your telling LD, it's your own opinion that you believe to be truth, and when others disagree your very quick to whip out the victim card, and play all offended.
It's a little tiresome after all these years.

guys for the last time can we cut the bickering and personal attacks. Please keep to the topic otherwise will have to lock this thread...
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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 21 Apr 2019, 10:46 am

miaow wrote:Also interesting: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-could-still-two-teams-16131141
So reading that the best way for Welsh teams to make the champions cup is either:

1) To rely on Zebre beating Treviso, and Glasgow beating Edinburgh

Or 

2) Leinster to beat Toulouse and Saracens, with Sale (and Harlequins) making the top 6 in the GP.

Or 

3) Winner of Ospreys/Cardiff winning their playoff game.


Hmmmmmmm.  angel

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Post by miaow on Sun 21 Apr 2019, 2:05 pm

1. Think Glasgow will beate Edinburgh as they look shattered, but you never know. Zebre winning a tall order, but is almost the inverse of the Scottish game: you never know!

2. Not out of the question. Munster were outmuscled yesterday but they're some way behind a fully firing Leinster, in my opinion. 3 excellent teams, but, again, not impossible. Think the fixture list is quite kind to the other 2, no?

3. Could be an all-Welsh play-off, but for argument's sake, if it's Benetton, I'd make the Blues strong favourites, and the Ospreys marginal favourites. Nothing really to fear from them, per se - they're good but they're beatable.

There should be 1 Welsh club in the ECC next year. Seems the most likely outcome, rather than 2 or 0.

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 21 Apr 2019, 3:12 pm

miaow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
miaow wrote:The Pro14 may well be dead: https://twitter.com/owenslot/status/1118918387751514112

I can't see CVC buying up a stake in the Pro14 simply to leave it as it is. A merger in the pipeline at some point down the road?

You mean like all the changes they introduced to Formula 1? Or the changes they made to the Premiership?

""Plan for Premiership and Pro14 clubs to compete in grand final after CVC deal

The sale of the major competitions in world rugby to CVC Capital Partners is set to complete its second phase in the next few weeks with the Guinness Pro14 near to settlement of a deal. It will sell just under a third of its commercial shareholding to the private equity firm for about £120 million.

The Pro14 deal will follow the sale of 27 per cent of the Gallagher Premiership, last December, for about £220 million. CVC is also in negotiations to land potentially its biggest asset, which would be a shareholding in the Six Nations.

The deal with the Pro14 has reached exclusivity stage. The Pro14, which is the league structure of the professional clubs of Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy plus two from South Africa, has ceased any negotiations with rival firms. The price, structure and the terms of conditions of the sale have all already been agreed with CVC.

Once CVC has the Pro14 under its wing, alongside the Premiership, it will look to see if the opportunity exists to stage an annual grand final between the champions of the two competitions. This has already been discussed with both the Premiership and its Celtic cousins.

Other possibilities that are being considered include the combining of the two leagues at the end-of-season play-off stages whereby the knockout rounds would see a competition where the top four of each league are pitted against each other."


Seems  pretty radical to me, and also somewhat inevitable that, eventually, the two leagues will 'merge' somehow, even if just with the end of season play-offs

MicK Mccafferty (The welshlanders favourite panto villain) has gone even further and suggested that a global club competition is inevitable and something he would "love to see happen".

Really it does seem that everything is on the table and its hard to know how it will shake down. That the french and then English generate so much more tv audience per game than other nations currently will always be a stumbling block but it does appear enough people sniff profit and potential in pushing a wider and wider club game rather than focusing on smaller local teams and leagues.
Its almost like international rugby wasnt a thing, or more wasnt a thing that the media execs have total ownership over.

The way things are going in Wales if they can sustain a couple of viable teams at that level and a wider local pro league below it could pan out OK. For the likes of Scotland though it could see them become marginalised again. Who knows. The conflict with the needs of international rugby and the desire of the unions to keep growing that is a thing too. It does feel a bit like everyone knows somethings got give but noone is willing to make it happen.

Im equal parts concerned and optimistic about the future. Its not just the pro14 thats kinda missed the boat and shat the bed as a result, the premiership is creaking too. Its well past sell by date for franchising and going back to a model that guarantees Tigers at least one cup a year Whistle

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Post by miaow on Sun 21 Apr 2019, 4:45 pm

If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

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Post by marty2086 on Sun 21 Apr 2019, 5:51 pm

miaow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
miaow wrote:The Pro14 may well be dead: https://twitter.com/owenslot/status/1118918387751514112

I can't see CVC buying up a stake in the Pro14 simply to leave it as it is. A merger in the pipeline at some point down the road?

You mean like all the changes they introduced to Formula 1? Or the changes they made to the Premiership?

""Plan for Premiership and Pro14 clubs to compete in grand final after CVC deal

The sale of the major competitions in world rugby to CVC Capital Partners is set to complete its second phase in the next few weeks with the Guinness Pro14 near to settlement of a deal. It will sell just under a third of its commercial shareholding to the private equity firm for about £120 million.

The Pro14 deal will follow the sale of 27 per cent of the Gallagher Premiership, last December, for about £220 million. CVC is also in negotiations to land potentially its biggest asset, which would be a shareholding in the Six Nations.

The deal with the Pro14 has reached exclusivity stage. The Pro14, which is the league structure of the professional clubs of Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy plus two from South Africa, has ceased any negotiations with rival firms. The price, structure and the terms of conditions of the sale have all already been agreed with CVC.

Once CVC has the Pro14 under its wing, alongside the Premiership, it will look to see if the opportunity exists to stage an annual grand final between the champions of the two competitions. This has already been discussed with both the Premiership and its Celtic cousins.

Other possibilities that are being considered include the combining of the two leagues at the end-of-season play-off stages whereby the knockout rounds would see a competition where the top four of each league are pitted against each other."


Seems  pretty radical to me, and also somewhat inevitable that, eventually, the two leagues will 'merge' somehow, even if just with the end of season play-offs

So holding talks about a game that there's no space in the calendar for and requires the sign off from 7 different governing bodies and doesn't change the structure or purpose of either league which would meet the definition of radical is a radical change Shocked

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Post by miaow on Mon 22 Apr 2019, 12:17 pm

Good God you're boring...

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Post by Irish Londoner on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 9:34 am

miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I've often posted on here that the obvious solution to the problems of the PRO14 would be a GB and I league but that there's no way the English clubs would want it, the lower end clubs would lose out and the top end clubs might not want the competition, so what would be in it for them?

CVC are as we agree are purely money driven,  they're not about sport or competition except insofar as it drives their return on investment. Therefore they might be in a position to move this forward, they'll have looked at the attendances for the ERC Cup games and how fast the final sells out and will be thinking "if we can get more of those sort of games, we can make more money from this".

We won't have a "world league" for a while, however I would not be surprised if CVC didn't start moving the clubs towards a GB and I league as a first step.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 9:41 am

miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

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Post by Eejit on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 10:24 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I was the same, I watched it as a lad and it absolutely was the best club competition out there, but its just not the case now.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 11:19 am

Eejit wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I was the same, I watched it as a lad and it absolutely was the best club competition out there, but its just not the case now.

Take home message being people like to watch competitions where their sides do well.

TV companies might be best placed showing different footage and results in different countries form the global league to ensure everyone is happy.

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Post by Eejit on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 11:25 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Eejit wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I was the same, I watched it as a lad and it absolutely was the best club competition out there, but its just not the case now.

Take home message being people like to watch competitions where their sides do well.

TV companies might be best placed showing different footage and results in different countries form the global league to ensure everyone is happy.

Wouldn't work as no-one will believe that the Dragons won a game of rugby.

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Post by miaow on Tue 23 Apr 2019, 11:40 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
miaow wrote:If I were England, I'd do everything to resist merging. They have the best club competition in the world, I believe. Better than the TOP14, which is hampered by apathy, inconsistency, and often really poor standards. The Premiership's a bit boring as well, but as a competition, it benefits from the fact that it has a genuine 'link' to the lower leagues, relegation and promotion is a viable thing: just look at Exeter's rise. That alone is worthy holding on to, but I sense it'll be out of their hands/there are too many competing interests that won't allow them to avoid a global season. The TOP14 might eventually just outprice it so it becomes like the English Premier League compared to something like, say, Serie A, but I can't see it. The world's still very Anglocentric, as is rugby. That plays a big part of the Premiership's appeal.

I think a global league competition is implausible as it stands. But it won't be like football, where huge hubs of talent in South America have to move to north to play 'good' club football. There's too much quality in NZ in particular to ensure that never happens.

Wales is effectively at the behest of more powerful, and more viable, unions and club games. Survival is all that matters, really, and that looks like it's far from guaranteed.

I didn't think there were people out there outside of England that liked the premiership. I used to watch a bit of it in the amateur days but the Pro 14 has since eclipsed it for me.

That said I can understand why a Welsh fan might not like it when their sides cant get out of first gear.

I like it because it's rugby. If you're missing out on enjoying rugby - and, by extension, life - because of some tired allegiance to a sense of nationalism defined by its opposition to anything English, that's just sad.

As for the actual rugby, things changed around 2013-14. Suddenly it went from fairly laboured, 10-man rugby for the most part to something quite enjoyable to watch: two big packs really going for it, but with the ball being moved wide and high scoring games being played out as a result. An influx of SH players - Willie Le Roux, JP Peterson stick out in my mind as being symbolic of the change - who were genuinely really good, rather than journeymen played a big part in that, but it wasn't the only reason, for sure.

It's gone back to being a bit more boring now as teams are tightening up - particularly with the jeopardy over relegation this year, the rise of clubs like Bristol upsetting the order that was being established etc. But it's still often a decent standard to watch.

Disagree entirely that the Pro14 has surpassed it: Leinster and Munster literally play like English Premiership teams. Leinster play like Exeter in my opinion, it's really not that different in terms of tactics and style. Only Glasgow - and sometimes the Scarlets - can really lay claim to the notion that they play more exciting/creative rugby than anything in the Premiership.

But all rugby has its place. Glasgow got hammered by Saracens' power; it's now up to Leinster to see what they can do.

Anyway, maybe watch some Premiership highlights once in a while. There are some good players and team out there - although I've found that the editing on those videos is often shocking. 20 seconds of watching a player lining up a kick, only the last 2 phases of a multi phase try etc. But anyway, it's free to watch on the internet, so...

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