New Zealand Out Half Crisis

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:20 pm

Damian McKenzie, who has not been ruled out of the rugby world cup, was seemingly Steve Hansen's back up 10 for the All Blacks. Bearing in mind that no New Zealand based back up 10 has much in the way of international experience has Hansen been guilty of putting all his eggs in one basket at 10?

Possible back up players.

Richie Mo'unga - 10 caps, mostly as sub
Brett Cameron - 1 cap
Otere Black - 0 caps, Blues 10

or

Stephen Donald - 24 caps

I think its fair to say that NZ's hopes revolve a bit around Beauden Barrett.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:39 pm

Where did your blood gate thread go?

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Post by miaow on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:40 pm

Interesting. There's an absolute shed load of 'drugs' (not that I could tell you about them, names etc.) in the pro game these days, and I know many younger people who were on growth...hormones, or something similar, when in their late teens/early 20s. Some of those are playing pro and even test rugby today. It's why there was absolutely no way I'd stand a chance at being a professional rugby player as I'm just a touch shy of 6' which is now deemed to small for just about every single position bar 9.

I'm not sure whether blood doping plays a part - it seems a very intrusive system for very little gain in something like rugby, where explosive power is key rather than longevity to 'explode' for. But perhaps in certain positions. It does feel like the 'standard' required - in terms of pace and power - at the top level is going up and up all the time. Someone like Steff Evans, for instance, would now deemed slow as a test winger.

I'd also say football/soccer is definitely jacked up big time. But then you can't discount the importance of sports science in the last 20 years either. Something as simple as 'don't get drunk regularly' can have a massive, positive impact on the body...

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Post by miaow on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:40 pm

Wait, what?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:Where did your blood gate thread go?

Don't know. It was based on an article in the public domain. Overly cautious moderation perhaps.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:55 pm

Yep, a real RUGBY issue get's shafted...yet again. Every time an uneasy drugs plus rugby article turns up you can sense the unease and downright determination to make the discussion as blunt and brief as possible. People are so scared of the topic, which in my opinion only means that it is a big unspoken issue within our sport. In my mind, we have a cycling issue problem and mindframe in rugby. Nobody wants to discuss it and often use the same language is used to suppress the talk of it.... "it damages rugby to make accusations without evidence".
No, it damages rugby to create a aura of omertà around the topic and so scare off possible whistleblowers from coming out with evidential truth.
I for one consistently believe that not just cheating but downright doping is informing some results around the globe.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 4:59 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Damian McKenzie, who has not been ruled out of the rugby world cup, was seemingly Steve Hansen's back up 10 for the All Blacks. Bearing in mind that no New Zealand based back up 10 has much in the way of international experience has Hansen been guilty of putting all his eggs in one basket at 10?

Possible back up players.

Richie Mo'unga - 10 caps, mostly as sub
Brett Cameron - 1 cap
Otere Black - 0 caps, Blues 10

or

Stephen Donald - 24 caps

I think its fair to say that NZ's hopes revolve a bit around Beauden Barrett.
From my watching of the ABs it seems Mo'unga had emerged as second choice 10 with Sopoaga going abroad. Mackenzie got game time at 10 against France, first covering off the bench when Barrett was injured and then starting the next test. Other than that though, it seemed to me that Mackenzie was being viewed as a starting 15, with Mo'unga able to replace him from the bench and push Beauden Barrett to fullback. Hence getting both Mo'unga and Barrett on the pitch at the same time.

Dagg retiring due to injury is unfortunate for NZ if Mackenzie is ruled out. Dagg has been a winger for a few seasons with Ben Smith playing full back, so his retirement doesn't directly effect fullback, but it does mean a lot of experience is lost from the back three. It also means that Ben Smith is more likely to be needed at right wing but with Naholo available and Jordie Barrett an excellent fullback there is still impressive depth.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 5:03 pm

From memory McKenzie was given more game time at 10 than Mo'unga over the last few years even if he covers 15 as well. I don't think Mo'unga started many games at 10 whereas McKenzie did?

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Post by miaow on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 5:08 pm

First big name player out of the RWC? Unfortunate for him, looked really good in the AIs against England and no doubt was a key part of their attacking game at both 15 and/or 10.

Someone tag 7.5 in and try and explain why depth is important...

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 5:32 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:From memory McKenzie was given more game time at 10 than Mo'unga over the last few years even if he covers 15 as well. I don't think Mo'unga started many games at 10 whereas McKenzie did?
Just the one start at 10 against France for Mackenzie. Mackenzie also played 70 minutes at 10 the week before, also against France, when Barrett got injured so he came off the bench to replace him.

Mo'unga has been on the bench for most his appearances and often replaced Mackenzie who was playing 15. On pretty much all those occasion Mo'unga has come on at 10 and Barrett moved to fullback though. It seemed a tactic that Hansen was favouring as Mo'unga offers a different tactical option to BB but you still have the ludicrous attacking ability of BB on the pitch.

Mo'unga has 2 starts at 10 and 7 replacement appearances where he often replaced Mackenzie who was playing 15. Those were the occasions when Barrett moved to fullback though. So Mackenzie has more test experience but Mo'unga more minutes at 10 as a test player.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 5:45 pm

Why the snide remarks miaow? You're a bit obsessed. Strength in depth doesn't just come from caps. It depends on how good the replacements are and if they're ready.

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Post by miaow on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:11 pm

Not obsessed at all. Just a clear reality of what RWC rugby is about - squad mangement. Hansen's trying to play it down in his comments, but no doubt he's gutted about losing DMac. Key player for their team and in many ways irreplacable - might like to someone like George Bridge from the Crusaders to bring in as a pacey back 3 player, but doesn't have the same jinking ability etc.

Test ready depth comes from caps though, yes. Otherwise it's just potential depth.

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Post by miaow on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:16 pm

As for the snide remarks, it's probably something to do with repeatedly being 'correct' - about the Lions, England and EJ, even Wales this year (although loads of people predicted a Welsh Grand Slam tbh, including Gatland). Sure there's plenty more. Until last night you just kind of blunder on - but you couldn't sit through 2 mins of a video developing the point about depth to far greater...depth...than I could. That's called cognitive dissonance.

As for NZ, I think there are big weaknesses in their team. Barrett's good but he's not Carter. Bottled it against SA etc. Read on the decline, not sure they have the star quality of yesteryear. 9 is very strong, but the reserves are all a bit...hmmm. Hooker very strong, props look a bit average. Centres undecided but they have good players there - just not very settled. Ben Smith a quality player and probably slots back in at 15. Ioane the best winger in the world on his day, not sure they've nailed down the other wing though either. Flankers likewise.

So a few issues for Hansen to sort out here. I don't see a core team that's ready to win a RWC based on experience and leadership - playing quality, yes, but they threw the Lions tour away and they're lacking a bit of 'something'. Two losses to Ireland in the RWC cycle - come up against a fired up Irish team in wet conditions and I could easily see Schmidt doing a job on them again. England likewise.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:22 pm

Lol. In your own head maybe miaow. You claim it's about caps but equally claim a guy like Underhill with fewer caps than his rivals is test proven and ready. It really has to be judged on a case by case basis. As I pointed out robshaw and Haskell have far more caps than than curry and Underhill. I doubt many England fans are calling for them to start. Which is all an aside from this particular case.i can't say I'd be able to say when or if the players listed above should have played. My knowledge on a couple of them would be up there with yours on England.

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Post by miaow on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:31 pm

Not really, you can't get much more correct than explicitly predicting things and then they LITERALLY come true New Zealand Out Half Crisis 3933776953

Anyway, I'm done. Peace.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:36 pm

There was me enjoying a discussion about the differing merits of several extremely talented and exciting to watch playmakers.

Tumbleweed

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:37 pm

Sorry. Fallen for miaow s troll again.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:47 pm

Retirement for Dagg and potential absence of DMac opens up a couple of spots in the back three for the AB squad. In particular it might re-open the door for Nehe Milner-Skudder whose Toulon contract doesn't start until December. Ngani Laumape is a talent on the wing as well though.

The rest of the back line is fairly settled and impressive with depth and experience at scrum-half to go with some impressive very centres. Nonu is even showing good form which gives even more options for NZ on top of Goodhue, SBW, Crotty, Lienert-Brown and Proctor.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 6:48 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:From memory McKenzie was given more game time at 10 than Mo'unga over the last few years even if he covers 15 as well. I don't think Mo'unga started many games at 10 whereas McKenzie did?
Just the one start at 10 against France for Mackenzie. Mackenzie also played 70 minutes at 10 the week before, also against France, when Barrett got injured so he came off the bench to replace him.

Mo'unga has been on the bench for most his appearances and often replaced Mackenzie who was playing 15. On pretty much all those occasion Mo'unga has come on at 10 and Barrett moved to fullback though. It seemed a tactic that Hansen was favouring as Mo'unga offers a different tactical option to BB but you still have the ludicrous attacking ability of BB on the pitch.

Mo'unga has 2 starts at 10 and 7 replacement appearances where he often replaced Mackenzie who was playing 15. Those were the occasions when Barrett moved to fullback though. So Mackenzie has more test experience but Mo'unga more minutes at 10 as a test player.

Fair enough. Mo'unga is for me the best back up 10 anyway but its odd he has had so few starts to date. I sense Hansen may have though he wasnt quite ready.

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 7:07 pm

Mo'unga has been around the AB squads a while but Sopoaga was ahead of him. Sopoaga leaving so young probably blindsided the coaches a bit but since he left Mo'unga has been brought through. Not an ideal situation but Mo'unga is a fantastic player so also not the worst place for Hansen to be.

I wouldn't be surprised if the injury to Mackenzie sees Mo'unga start at 10 and BB at 15 for a game or two in the Rugby Championship. Added bonus of that combo would be Mo'unga goal kicking, which is undoubtedly the biggest weakness to Barrett's game.

11.Ioane 14.Naholo 15.Smith

11.Laumape 14.Milner-Skudder 15.Jordie Barrett

There's some scary talent around the ABs squad as always.

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Post by yappysnap on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 8:02 pm

I wonder if Sopoaga regrets giving up on chasing an AB's shirt so soon now? He could theoretically be going to the RWC if he hadn't moved abroad.

I really rate Mo'Unga, his attacking game isn't quite as insane as Barrett's but his all round control and his kicking is so much better. For me he's the complete fly half and if given more starts I think he'll end up taking the NZ 10 jersey. Barrett is great but over this past year or so we've begun to see his weaknesses exposed internationally.

Black is a big step down, looked good at age grade but doesn't look close to Int standard atm.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 8:55 pm

Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 9:52 pm

king_carlos wrote:Mo'unga has been around the AB squads a while but Sopoaga was ahead of him. Sopoaga leaving so young probably blindsided the coaches a bit but since he left Mo'unga has been brought through. Not an ideal situation but Mo'unga is a fantastic player so also not the worst place for Hansen to be.

I wouldn't be surprised if the injury to Mackenzie sees Mo'unga start at 10 and BB at 15 for a game or two in the Rugby Championship. Added bonus of that combo would be Mo'unga goal kicking, which is undoubtedly the biggest weakness to Barrett's game.

11.Ioane 14.Naholo 15.Smith

11.Laumape 14.Milner-Skudder 15.Jordie Barrett

There's some scary talent around the ABs squad as always.

Maybe they werent interested in him after NZ lost to Australia and he started at 10. Any time Ive seen him play for Wasps he has been crap.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 16 Apr 2019, 9:53 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

He is no Dan Biggar

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:46 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

He is no Dan Biggar

Whatever that means. Anscombe was never good enough. Couldnt even retain his Blues spot and is still a poor mans 10. Dmac and barrett are easily the most creative playmakers around but Dmac is no 10 at the top level. Id have had him at FB withbSmith, who has played far more tests at wing, and Reiko at wing.

Now Smith is certain to go to FB, no other option there. Mo’unga has been back up 10 for a while so I think lose a fullback, not a 10. Other than that we’re looking good. Ardie has improved out of sight from last year and theres a lot of competition at 6 and in the midfield, with Nonus return keeping them all honest.

Use last years matches as a guide and youll be very disappointed. This is the main event and the comparison between the NZ derbies and the recent 6N was ridiculously contrasting in pace and skill levels.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:47 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 1:50 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Damian McKenzie, who has not been ruled out of the rugby world cup, was seemingly Steve Hansen's back up 10 for the All Blacks. Bearing in mind that no New Zealand based back up 10 has much in the way of international experience has Hansen been guilty of putting all his eggs in one basket at 10?

Possible back up players.

Richie Mo'unga - 10 caps, mostly as sub
Brett Cameron - 1 cap
Otere Black - 0 caps, Blues 10

or

Stephen Donald - 24 caps

I think its fair to say that NZ's hopes revolve a bit around Beauden Barrett.

Yes, as do Irelands around Sexton, englands around Farrell etc etc. nothing new there.

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:42 am

Taylorman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

He was a very good 10, can't be that old either atm. Perhaps he could be tempted back? By all accounts his time in France at Mont has been pretty rubbish and generally the culture seems poor there so I cant see much other then money keeping him there

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Post by miaow on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:44 am

Taylorman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

Cruden's absolute dunk and has been for a while. Seen him play live twice since his move and I was amazed he was a test player, let alone an All Black. But he's also been generally pretty average for his club in general. Not the best gauge being out in France but there is no way he would get anywhere near any of the 4 Home Nations' 10 shirt, maybe a place with Scotland behind Russell, so suggesting he comes back is either ignorant of how he's actually playing, harking back to 2011, or a mix of the two.

Anscombe would be in the reckoning for NZ for sure. Don't let the fact he chose Wales and the easy way out blind you to that. He'd have been a decent 5-15 cap All Black, probably a utility back.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:52 am

miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

Cruden's absolute dunk and has been for a while. Seen him play live twice since his move and I was amazed he was a test player, let alone an All Black. But he's also been generally pretty average for his club in general. Not the best gauge being out in France but there is no way he would get anywhere near any of the 4 Home Nations' 10 shirt, maybe a place with Scotland behind Russell, so suggesting he comes back is either ignorant of how he's actually playing, harking back to 2011, or a mix of the two.

Anscombe would be in the reckoning for NZ for sure. Don't let the fact he chose Wales and the easy way out blind you to that. He'd have been a decent 5-15 cap All Black, probably a utility back.

Yes, so is and was Anscombe, and expecting every single ex AB to perform at lower grade rugby when they probably cant be bothered is something you dont get to have Im afraid.

Anscombe was let go by Kirwan at the Blues, picked up by the Chiefs and saw the writing on the wall. He was never going to be an All Black. We know our players Miaow, even if you dont, and like you, the number that continue to underestimate AB rugby would fill a few graveyards, and have.

Cruden is at his best better than any 6N 10 and proved it by outplaying every one he went up against. He's just not enjoying his rugby at the moment, time to come back where things are more important I say. Another lost to the backdrop of NH rugby.


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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 2:55 am

yappysnap wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

He was a very good 10, can't be that old either atm. Perhaps he could be tempted back? By all accounts his time in France at Mont has been pretty rubbish and generally the culture seems poor there so I cant see much other then money keeping him there

Yes thats what we've heard here. Its a bit of hit and miss in terms of rugby 'culture' in the north. They have it in small pools where here the players all 'get it'.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:25 am

Taylorman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

Another bite from captain one-eye thumbsup

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:31 am

Taylorman wrote:
miaow wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

Cruden's absolute dunk and has been for a while. Seen him play live twice since his move and I was amazed he was a test player, let alone an All Black. But he's also been generally pretty average for his club in general. Not the best gauge being out in France but there is no way he would get anywhere near any of the 4 Home Nations' 10 shirt, maybe a place with Scotland behind Russell, so suggesting he comes back is either ignorant of how he's actually playing, harking back to 2011, or a mix of the two.

Anscombe would be in the reckoning for NZ for sure. Don't let the fact he chose Wales and the easy way out blind you to that. He'd have been a decent 5-15 cap All Black, probably a utility back.

Yes, so is and was Anscombe, and expecting every single ex AB to perform at lower grade rugby when they probably cant be bothered is something you dont get to have Im afraid.

Anscombe was let go by Kirwan at the Blues, picked up by the Chiefs and saw the writing on the wall. He was never going to be an All Black. We know our players Miaow, even if you dont, and like you, the number that continue to underestimate AB rugby would fill a few graveyards, and have.

Cruden is at his best better than any 6N 10 and proved it by outplaying every one he went up against. He's just not enjoying his rugby at the moment, time to come back where things are more important I say. Another lost to the backdrop of NH rugby.

Anscombe would have got as many caps as Slade; he wouldn’t be good enough to be a main-stay in the ABs with the likes of Barrett and D-Mac around - so at that point he would have headed to France to command a large wage and would probably look like Cruden is right now. Anscombe has had bad luck with injuries at times but on the whole Cardiff was a good move for him.

And don’t forget Stephen donald, what a world class player...

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 3:52 am

Were you watching Anscombes progress prior to going to Wales. He started off promising at the Blues, then flatlined to a point where he wasnt retained. Went to the Chiefs and with Carter, Cruden was never in the All Black mould. he wouldnt have got any is my point. While here he was never in that category. Had he not gone Barrett came along as did Sapoaga, both better than Anscombe.

If anyone had bad luck with injuries Slade takes the cake on that score. Very good player but suffered with a poor and over vigorous tackling technique.

Anscombe has never even secured his place in the Welsh team and only lately the slightly preferred selection. Not a great improvement rate since he left NZ so not likely to have improved his chances had he stayed.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 4:21 am

What I dont get is why theres a crisis? We have Barrett and Mo'unga. Which country has two significantly better than that?

If thats a crisis then can we have some more of that please.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 4:29 am

SecretFly wrote:Yep, a real RUGBY issue get's shafted...yet again.  Every time an uneasy drugs plus rugby article turns up you can sense the unease and downright determination to make the discussion as blunt and brief as possible.  People are so scared of the topic, which in my opinion only means that it is a big unspoken issue within our sport.  In my mind, we have a cycling issue problem and mindframe in rugby.  Nobody wants to discuss it and often use the same language is used to suppress the talk of it.... "it damages rugby to make accusations without evidence".  
No, it damages rugby to create a aura of omertà around the topic and so scare off possible whistleblowers from coming out with evidential truth.
I for one consistently believe that not just cheating but downright doping is informing some results around the globe.  

NZ rugby in crisis because a 10 who's really a 15 can't play in the world cup is not a real rugby issue? My my, things have changed.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:18 am

Taylorman wrote:Were you watching Anscombes progress prior to going to Wales. He started off promising at the Blues, then flatlined to a point where he wasnt retained. Went to the Chiefs and with Carter, Cruden was never in the All Black mould. he wouldnt have got any is my point. While here he was never in that category. Had he not gone Barrett came along as did Sapoaga, both better than Anscombe.

If anyone had bad luck with injuries Slade takes the cake on that score. Very good player but suffered with a poor and over vigorous tackling technique.

Anscombe has never even secured his place in the Welsh team and only lately the slightly preferred selection. Not a great improvement rate since he left NZ so not likely to have improved his chances had he stayed.

I think you’re confused again, let me help you out. We were hypothetically speaking because Anscombe left NZ and your adamance that he wouldn’t have got a NZ test cap despite proving he can step up is more guess work. I didn’t say Anscombe could challenge Carter and Cruden, and I even went on to say that he wouldn’t have been a main-stay with the likes of Barrett and D-Mac emerging. My point is that if super-average players like Slade and Donald can get a load of test caps each then Anscombe surely could have.

My guess is given injuries since before he moved here and up to now, he would have got called upon. If Anscombe played for NZ I guess he would look pretty good too, just like Nonu looked good; he was one of a few ABs that moved north and looked average. South African players are better value for money, which is why everyone is pillaging them. Anscombe is a little hit or miss for sure, but he did step up at the highest level when needed, and put in some great performances. I’m glad he’s around but is he the best? Probably not, but what a great choice to fall back on.

On the average AB point; there are Kiwis that come here who don’t get a cap and do very well, sometimes getting poached. It seems some of the lads relax a little too much in the black jersey.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:19 am

Taylorman wrote:What I dont get is why theres a crisis? We have Barrett and Mo'unga. Which country has two significantly better than that?

If thats a crisis then can we have some more of that please.

Wales, England, Ireland, Scotland and Australia would all argue. Some of them might not be right, but if you think Barrett and Mo’unga are lightyears ahead of the rest then you’re truly deluded.

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Post by Pie on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:20 am

Give it to the Beaver

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Post by Pie on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:21 am

And its only a matter of time before we discover that NZ has been jacked up on roids for the last 20 years

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:27 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Taylorman wrote:What I dont get is why theres a crisis? We have Barrett and Mo'unga. Which country has two significantly better than that?

If thats a crisis then can we have some more of that please.

Wales, England, Ireland, Scotland and Australia would all argue. Some of them might not be right, but if you think Barrett and Mo’unga are lightyears ahead of the rest then you’re truly deluded.

Didnt say they were but if our situation is a ‘crisis’ surely others must have significantly better tens to ‘not be in a crisis’ surely. And i dont think that is the case. Though barrett is far better than any NH 10. By a street.

Though I get your point re Anscombe, he may have got tests assuming he retained his super rugby position and back then, that wasnt guaranteed. Other kiwis would disagree with me though. He started out full of promise then just went flat, many games with no impact. If anything, his northern move was the best thing for him, though as in NZ, struggled to make a huge impact, something we expect of our players, 10s especially.

One big difference I think is we make our players sink or swim. They either succeed, or go north because regardless of succeeding with the ABs, theyll always be good enough in NH sides with a bit of application.

Your players hang around forever waiting to get selected or not, and you often see the same names drift in and out of the side over the years.

Ours dont. Youre in, you play for a while, then youre out. there are a few exceptions, Matt Todd probably the best one, totally committed to NZ rugby and happy to take whatever tests he can get. Not many like him though. Failured or aged? Go north.


Last edited by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:29 am

Pie wrote:Give it to the Beaver

Hes playing for the Chiefs, and is available, and, has won a world cup with direct input to the winning scoreline. Not many 10s in that boat. Whistle

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 5:35 am

Pie wrote:And its only a matter of time before we discover that NZ has been jacked up on roids for the last 20 years

Possibly, either that or northern coaches have mandatory weed sessions before every session. Id say Im probably more likely to be correct. laughing

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Post by yappysnap on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 7:48 am

Taylorman wrote:
yappysnap wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Do you reckon they regret not capping Anscombe now... Whistle

Aah, an emphatic no. If anything calls are for Cruden to return.

He was a very good 10, can't be that old either atm. Perhaps he could be tempted back? By all accounts his time in France at Mont has been pretty rubbish and generally the culture seems poor there so I cant see much other then money keeping him there

Yes thats what we've heard here. Its a bit of hit and miss in terms of rugby 'culture' in the north. They have it in small pools   where here the players all 'get it'.

Aside from one or two clubs in France I think the only culture is money im afraid.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 10:30 am

Taylorman wrote:What I dont get is why theres a crisis? We have Barrett and Mo'unga. Which country has two significantly better than that?

If thats a crisis then can we have some more of that please.

Because Mo'unga isnt very experienced at international level and nor are any of the other available alternatives. You talk about depth all the time. 10 caps from the bench in a RWC year is not depth.

Mo'unga looks very assured when playing for the Crusaiders but in my view looks much less comanding when playing for the ABs. I think the two sides have fairly different styles and Im not convinced Mo'unga is a 100% reliable back up to Barrett yet.

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Post by Taylorman on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 10:37 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:What I dont get is why theres a crisis? We have Barrett and Mo'unga. Which country has two significantly better than that?

If thats a crisis then can we have some more of that please.

Because Mo'unga isnt very experienced at international level and nor are any of the other available alternatives. You talk about depth all the time. 10 caps from the bench in a RWC year is not depth.

Mo'unga looks very assured when playing for the Crusaiders but in my view looks much less comanding when playing for the ABs. I think the two sides have fairly different styles and Im not convinced Mo'unga is a 100% reliable back up to Barrett yet.

True, and which seconds do the 6N have at 10 with a wealth of experience in tests?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 10:50 am

Taylorman wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Taylorman wrote:What I dont get is why theres a crisis? We have Barrett and Mo'unga. Which country has two significantly better than that?

If thats a crisis then can we have some more of that please.

Because Mo'unga isnt very experienced at international level and nor are any of the other available alternatives. You talk about depth all the time. 10 caps from the bench in a RWC year is not depth.

Mo'unga looks very assured when playing for the Crusaiders but in my view looks much less comanding when playing for the ABs. I think the two sides have fairly different styles and Im not convinced Mo'unga is a 100% reliable back up to Barrett yet.

True, and which seconds do the 6N have at 10 with a wealth of experience in tests?

Is it always 6N v New Zealand for you? Odd.

England - George Ford - 50 caps
Ireland - Joey Carbery - 18 caps
Wales - Anscome 27 caps
Scotland - Hastings 11 caps
SA - Elton Jantjies 32 caps
Australia - Matt To'omua 40 caps
Argentina - Joaquín Díaz Bonilla 1 cap

Only Argentina has a less experienced back up 10 to NZ right now. Crisis confirmed? Back row looks to be creaking a bit too.

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Post by miaow on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 11:26 am

Taylorman wrote:Yes, so is and was Anscombe

Na

Taylorman wrote:Cruden is at his best better than any 6N 10 and proved it by outplaying every one he went up against. He's just not enjoying his rugby at the moment, time to come back where things are more important I say. Another lost to the backdrop of NH rugby.

Thiis completely guesswork, and because you don't actually know what he looks like over in France, your go-to response is predictable as ever. Had Carter not been injured Cruden would have been a 5-15 cap All Black himself, with Slade probably getting a longer run in the shirt after 2011. Circumstance, as much as planning, handed Cruden the caps he did. Get over it.


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Post by miaow on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 11:27 am

Out of interest, Taylor, what level did you play rugby to? Are you an ex All Black?

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Post by miaow on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 11:32 am

Taylorman wrote:Were you watching Anscombes progress prior to going to Wales. He started off promising at the Blues, then flatlined to a point where he wasnt retained.

Have to ask yourself why the failures of a once so-successful Super Rugby franchise/NZ club failed to bring forward and develop than man who kept Beauden Barrett out of the 10 shirt for the Baby Blacks. Or does player performance fall solely on the hands of the player when it goes badly in NZ, and the clubs when they're in the NH...? Whistle

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