The Future for the PRO14 - Part 10 - Who runs it now and what next?

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Post by Pot Hale on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 9:17 pm

Far back in distant time, when the Irish provinces were playing each other and the Welsh and Scottish clubs were occasionally playing each other, someone had the bright idea of creating a competition between the three unions with the clubs playing each other in some kind of competition or cup during the season in preparation for the Six Nations.    Initially, the IRFU weren’t hot on the idea and thought it better that the annual interpros were sufficient for the task, but eventually they were persuaded to join forces and so the three unions came together as equal shareholders in what was then called Celtic Rugby Limited.   They decided to base it in Dublin to avail of the low corporation tax base and also because it allowed them to use the same back room people who worked on the newly formed 6 Nations comp and the British & Irish Lions.   The original International Rugby Football Board was also founded in Dublin with the same three foundation unions, which eventually became the IRB, and then the current World Rugby.   The European Rugby comps were also set up in Dublin, before the newly created EPCR moved lock, stock and barrel to Neufchâtel.

All very Irish, and Irish-centric, one would be entitled to think.

But who actually runs the organizations, and where do they hail from?

The PRO14 comp is owned by Celtic Rugby DAC (Designated Activity Company) and currently has the same three shareholders.   Subject to outstanding financial obligations being met by the FIR, they will become shareholders next season, and most likely so will SARU as it completes its decision-making on where it is going with its 8 franchise teams in Super Rugby and PRO 14.  Presumably, the intent would be to make each shareholder an equal ownership partner with a 20% allocation to each party, although an argument may be made that the new shareholding should be linked to the number of teams provided under the PRO14 Participation Agreement, in which case the Irish, Welsh and South Africans may come out on top. With the likely involvement of CVC taking a stake, the shareholding may be revised drastically.

Currently, the PRO14 via Celtic Rugby has a board comprising equal number of directors from each of the five nations.   Welsh-born, Gareth Davies chairs the board.  

An executive headed up by Martin Anayi, born and raised in England and Wales, leads the management team, which includes:
David Jordan, Scottish-born and ex-Glasgow Warriors CEO, tournament director of the PRO14,
Amy Monaghan, Irish-born is the tournament manager,
Dermot Rigley, the Irish-born Chief Commercial Officer of the organisation
Tom Lister, English-born Marketing Director
Greg Garner, the English-born, ex-RFU referees manager,
Charl Crous, ex-Southern Kings COO, and SA-born is the Head of Operations.

So is the PRO14 Irish-centric or Irish-biased?

There’s no denying that it’s based in Dublin, and a number of middle-management and admin staff are recruited in Ireland, but at the top, decision-making level, the diversity of countries and spread of nationalities would point to it being a lot more evenly spread.

The last three key headline sponsors of the competition have all derived from Ireland - Magners (Bulmers in Ireland), RaboDirect, a Dutch bank with ambitions to invest sand grow in the Irish market, and currently, Guinness, owned by the UK-listed global drinks company, Diageo, but with evident strong roots in Ireland.

The current TV deals with EirSport in Ireland and Premier Sports in the UK have Irish roots in their founders and creators from Setanta Sports.    

It’s current partners and suppliers include Guinness, Opta, SportPesa, The UK Times/Sunday Times, Macron, Ronseal, and ROS Nutrition.  Eir, the parent company of EirSport, are the sponsors of the referees.

Will the increase of SA involvement change things somewhat as SuperSport and associated sponsors get more involved?  

With growing success of Scottish teams, will there be greater interest from business and advertisers?

What do the Italians intended to bring to the party as part of their increased involvement and new shareholding in 2019/20?


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Post by Brendan on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 9:57 pm

With all the English people it's obviously the PRL

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Post by The Oracle on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 10:43 pm

Who is this thread aimed at exactly? It seems that posters on here get their knickers in a twist about maybe 3 posters who claim Irish bias and Irish-centric ‘stuff’. 3 posters! Ignore them. Don’t waste your energy.
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Post by miaow on Wed 17 Apr 2019, 11:30 pm

Who runs it? Not sure really but they're not doing a great job either way. It was better when these lads did, for sure...


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Post by tigertattie on Thu 18 Apr 2019, 9:09 am

Accoridng to Beyonce, Girls run it!
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Post by SecretFly on Thu 18 Apr 2019, 9:25 am

What do the Italians plan on bringing to the party?

Ooh sir! Loaded fun filled question. Oh yes sir, let's guess. Hopefully something along the lines of beach volley ball bikini Pom Pom girls doing the punditry?
Now where's the camera director's microphone? Me gonna need control of that baby!

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Post by miaow on Thu 18 Apr 2019, 10:07 am

The Italians bring French-style TV directors refusing to show replays from all angles until the decision has gone for the home side...

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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 2:55 pm

So the CVC offer is now in exclusivity stage.    30% shareholding potentially on commercials which would leave 70% to be split between the 5 unions.    

Interesting.

And a possible play-off at season end between the PRO14 Championship and the English Premiership League could happen - wonder how this will impact on the revised Heineken Cup when it comes up for discussion?


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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 3:49 pm

Extract from the Times article on the PRO14 deal:

"The Pro14 and the Premiership are also set to collaborate off the field. CVC sees its greatest opportunity as the ability to sell the broadcasting rights for the two competitions together, but the finance and legal teams from each league are likely to work together too.

When CVC has acquired a share of both competitions it is likely that it will look to take greater control of the Heineken Champions Cup and the Challenge Cup as well. Europe’s two leading competitions feature teams from the three big leagues in Europe: the Premiership, the Pro14 and the Top 14 in France.

CVC does not need to buy a stake in the Champions Cup because its potential control over two of the three main stakeholders means that it should be able to bring its influence to bear on the competition.

Although CVC is set to hold a share of the Premiership and the Pro14, the two will remain as separate commercial structures. There will be potential for collaborations and partnerships but Darren Childs, the incoming chief executive of the Gallagher Premiership, will have no role with the Pro 14. Martin Anayi is set to remain in his post as chief executive of the Pro14."

One might argue that the inevitable (long-term) consequence of CVC's involvement and driving of collaboration and financial/commercial deals collectively, is the creation of a British & Irish League, or assuming Italy and SA continue, a multi-country league with two divisions.
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Post by Kingshu on Fri 19 Apr 2019, 4:05 pm

I wouldnt think any Union would ever agree to two divisions, they wouldnt want any of their teams in a 2nd division.

More likily would be the Pro 14 adds the 2 super rugby sides being discussed, and the Prem ring fences at 16 teams, making a total of 32 teams.
Means 4 divisions of 8 (tiered draw), play home and away 14 games, then cup, shield and plate playoffs.

Each union then has its own domestic cup/championship to keep derbies.

Less games per season, top players seen more often, higher quality for everyone.1

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Post by The Oracle on Sun 21 Apr 2019, 6:44 pm

Sounds like a European league to me.....
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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 1:16 pm

PRO14 Rugby and Premier Sports are delighted to announce that the first season of their partnership has been highly-successful with subscriber figures ahead of projected targets.

As the Guinness PRO14 enters into the final round of the regular season Premier Sports have delivered on their promise to screen every minute of the action while also providing Free-To-Air access on FreeSports.

With the end stages of Guinness PRO14 season approaching ahead of the Final on May 25 in Glasgow, Premier Sports have reported unprecedented interest throughout the campaign with subscribers joining at a record pace setting an overall figure which has exceeded all expectations and forecasts.

Since kicking off their coverage of the Championship in August, Premier Sports have also added Autumn internationals and Under 18s Six Nations rugby to their package while they have also picked up top-tier football rights with Serie A, LaLiga, Scottish Cup, MLS and Eredivisie all available to customers.
Richard Sweeney, CEO of Premier Sports said: “We’ve been blown away about the partnership we’ve built with Guinness PRO14 in our first season both in terms of our coverage and by the growth of our customer base, with subscriptions ahead of target. We are pleased to be working closely with a world-class production team at Sunset+Vine with the expertise and know-how required to deliver high quality live coverage of seven games every weekend throughout the Championship.

“We’ve brought together great rugby talent across Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland for our coverage, believing that if you invest in the right people, you show you’re really serious about providing rugby coverage that customers enjoy.

“We’ve had great feedback from the clubs, PRO14 Rugby and supporters this season, particularly around the opportunity to access so much rugby action, all in one place. Never before has the Guinness PRO14 had such comprehensive coverage and a platform to show every game live.”

Premier Sports is available for £9.99 per month, but every weekend its sister channel FreeSports broadcasts a live game FREE from the Guinness PRO14 with audiences of more than 35,000 tuning to Free Sports for key games.

The “on-the-go” Premier Player has also been a hit with subscribers who can see all of the action from Premier Sports live or on-demand via their iOS and Android apps or by simply logging onto premierplayer.tv directly on their Smart TV’s or Chromecasting.

Premier Sports is available in 16 million UK homes across Sky and Virgin platforms and to everyone via the Premier Player https://www.premierplayer.tv/ while FreeSports is available to 22 million UK homes across seven different platforms.

Premier Sports 1 is on Sky channel 412 and Virgin channel 551. Premier Sports 2 is on Sky channel 435 and Virgin Channel 552. FreeSports is available free on Sky Channel 422, Virgin Media Channel 553, on Channel 95 on Freeview and BT and on Freesat Channel 252.

Both Premier Sports channels are available on a subscription basis for just £9.99 per month on Sky, Virgin and on the Premier Sports player. The channels are also available to pubs, clubs and other commercial premises throughout the UK. Visit http://www.premiersports.com to find out more.
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Post by miaow on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 2:06 pm

Argh, why are press releases being repeatedly posted on this website ffs?!?!

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Post by Pot Hale on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 6:13 pm

miaow wrote:Argh, why are press releases being repeatedly posted on this website ffs?!?!

To counteract the inept, inaccurate and blithering dribble that we have to tolerate.
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Post by miaow on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 7:09 pm

Bit harsh on mikey and 7.5. They're not always inaccurate. Mostly, but not always...

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 7:18 pm

I'm never inaccurate. You're a little obsessed though. From thread to thread you're getting owned.

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Post by miaow on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 7:26 pm

Eurgh. Creepy lurker.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sat 27 Apr 2019, 7:33 pm

Try to focus on rugby and less on personal insults after numerous warnings from the mods you must be on thin ice by now. It'll also help you in actual discussions as well. Still time to turn it around.

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Post by geoff999rugby on Sun 28 Apr 2019, 10:27 am

I know - another troll who will drive more posters away

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Post by The Oracle on Sun 28 Apr 2019, 9:45 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I know - another troll who will drive more posters away

Miaow or 7.5? Genuinely, I can’t tell for your post.
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Post by maestegmafia on Sun 28 Apr 2019, 10:09 pm

A few of you have been warned about your choice of constantly berating and attempting to defame other posters on another thread and you chose to carry this on here.

Take this as an official warning to desist from derailing threads and petty name calling or face the consequences and some enforced time reflecting on your actions.

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Post by Pot Hale on Mon 29 Apr 2019, 10:14 pm

Was just having a look at attendances for the regular season in PRO14.

It breaks down by country like this:

Ita - 67,252 - 5.8% of total PRO14 attendance
SA - 78,154 - 6.8%
Sco - 151,123 - 13.1%
Wal - 331,458 - 28.8%
Irl - 523,089 - 45.4%

Total so far is 1,151,076 which is down 58,000 on last season.

Even allowing for approx further 100-110k from various playoffs and the final, numbers will be down overall compared to last season’s total attendance of 1,301,331 incl finals series.


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Post by SecretFly on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 10:19 am

What do the percentages refer to? Full house capacity?

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Post by marty2086 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 11:07 am

Did you include the final in your totals Pot?

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 11:15 am

SecretFly wrote:What do the percentages refer to?  Full house capacity?

Sorry Fly - didn't make that clear - % of total attendance for the regular season.

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 11:16 am

marty2086 wrote:Did you include the final in your totals Pot?

"Was just having a look at attendances for the regular season in PRO14"
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Post by marty2086 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 11:22 am

Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Did you include the final in your totals Pot?

"Was just having a look at attendances for the regular season in PRO14"

The estimate for the play offs etc threw me, I wasn't sure if that was like for like then

I'm guessing you included Judgement Day though as home fixtures for both 'home sides' though

Figures I had for the Regions were

Total Attendance
             Cardiff    Dragons      Ospreys       Scarlets
2017/18 63154    51615            69937      91880
2018/19 66237   46111             74936      92877

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 11:24 am

marty2086 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Did you include the final in your totals Pot?

"Was just having a look at attendances for the regular season in PRO14"

The estimate for the play offs etc threw me, I wasn't sure if that was like for like then

I'm guessing you included Judgement Day though as home fixtures for both 'home sides' though

Figures I had for the Regions were

Total Attendance
             Cardiff    Dragons      Ospreys       Scarlets
2017/18 63154    51615            69937      91880
2018/19 66237   46111             74936      92877

I only count Judgement Day attendance once - and split it 50/50 between Cardiff and Dragons.
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Post by marty2086 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 11:37 am

I had counted it separately as it can skewed some of the things I was looking at but it's a shame that the attendance fell but as I mentioned elsewhere, play off places weren't really on offer so that would impact attendance as there was an element of dead rubber in terms of silverware

Ulsters drop was to be expected given the events of last year

Given the difference in home games for teams between seasons though it's hard to tell where the differences really are

On average though you're talking a few hundred per game

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Post by Kingshu on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 1:22 pm

Connacht gave 7 players debuts this season, Ulster gave 10, anyone know hiw many debuts were made by Leinster and Munster?

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Post by marty2086 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 1:26 pm

Kingshu wrote:Connacht gave 7 players debuts this season, Ulster gave 10, anyone know hiw many debuts were made by Leinster and Munster?

I take it you mean from the academy?

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Post by wayne on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 2:02 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What do the percentages refer to?  Full house capacity?

Sorry Fly - didn't make that clear - % of total attendance for the regular season.

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Something that has sadly been missing from this thread and the other one that has been rightly blocked is the fact that this seasons Judgement Day has seen an increase in ticket prices.

I might have some of this slightly wrong but basically it is correct that up until Dec 4th 2018 tickets for Lower and Upper tiers were set at £10, Middle Tier was £25 and from what I could see the Upper Tier was not opened up. So to see a drop of what was it 10 to 15 thousand was to be expected. There were other price differences compared to other years, if anybody wants to put up a link from Google Judgement Day Prices, the second item on that page will give anybody the facts to which I referred, it's from the WRU.

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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 2:08 pm

On the attendances point; last season two of the Edinburgh vs Glasgow matches were at Murrayfield, this season two have been at Scotstoun. The capacity of these stadiums is massively different, the 3 games are down 17.2k overall from last year. Next year when there are two games back at Murrayfield I’d expect the attendance figures to increase again, unless Edinburgh move to their new stadium and the games aren’t moved to the international stadium.

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Post by marty2086 on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 2:10 pm

wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What do the percentages refer to?  Full house capacity?

Sorry Fly - didn't make that clear - % of total attendance for the regular season.

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Something that has sadly been missing from this thread and the other one that has been rightly blocked is the fact that this seasons Judgement Day has seen an increase in ticket prices.

I might have some of this slightly wrong but basically it is correct that up until Dec 4th 2018 tickets for Lower and Upper tiers were set at £10, Middle Tier was £25 and from what I could see the Upper Tier was not opened up. So to see a drop of what was it 10 to 15 thousand was to be expected. There were other price differences compared to other years, if anybody wants to put up a link from Google Judgement Day Prices, the second item on that page will give anybody the facts to which I referred, it's from the WRU.  

Given that it looked like two of the regions were going to be playing another game that isn't part of the season ticket in the Euro play off that's a lot to ask of fans

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Post by tigertattie on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 3:11 pm

EWT Spoons wrote:On the attendances point; last season two of the Edinburgh vs Glasgow matches were at Murrayfield, this season two have been at Scotstoun.  The capacity of these stadiums is massively different, the 3 games are down 17.2k  overall from last year.  Next year when there are two games back at Murrayfield I’d expect the attendance figures to increase again, unless Edinburgh move to their new stadium and the games aren’t moved to the international stadium.

Big IF on that one.

besides, IF we are in the new stadium (highly unlikely) when the unwashed come visiting we'll move the game into HQ for the additional ticket sales. It'll probably form part of "super Satuarday" again.
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Post by EWT Spoons on Tue 30 Apr 2019, 3:20 pm

tigertattie wrote:
EWT Spoons wrote:On the attendances point; last season two of the Edinburgh vs Glasgow matches were at Murrayfield, this season two have been at Scotstoun.  The capacity of these stadiums is massively different, the 3 games are down 17.2k  overall from last year.  Next year when there are two games back at Murrayfield I’d expect the attendance figures to increase again, unless Edinburgh move to their new stadium and the games aren’t moved to the international stadium.

Big IF on that one.

besides, IF we are in the new stadium (highly unlikely) when the unwashed come visiting we'll move the game into HQ for the additional ticket sales. It'll probably form part of "super Satuarday" again.

Aye, totally agree, I would expect the "big" games will move to the main stadium to increase revenue.

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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:48 pm

This article ran today in the Irish Independent about the struggles of the PRO14 on the back of Munster and Ulster finding QF tickets hard to sell for this weekend:

“If the Guinness PRO14 functioned as a normal competition, the upcoming weekend would be one of the biggest of the rugby season. In reality, the quarter-finals are proving to be a tough sell from a public that still struggles to engage with the tournament.

Munster are so concerned about the slow uptake of tickets for their clash with Benetton that they've had to innovate to offer a 'kids-go-free' option at Thomond Park.

In Belfast, Ulster are hoping the prospect of Rory Best's last home game and the attraction of taking on a rival province can shift tickets but again, sales have been slow.

That's despite the stakes being high for the teams involved; Connacht may have won the tournament in 2016 but Munster have not lifted a trophy since 2011 and Ulster's wait goes back to 2006.

As well as a tangible reward for their season, the clubs are also on the first step of their 2019/'20 European journey. PRO14 performance establishes Champions Cup seeding in the next season and all the provinces could do with embellishing their prospects of succeeding in a post-World Cup tournament by avoiding their fellow big-guns.

The fans will tune in when that competition gets going in October, but for now they are less than fully engaged. The season is a long and expensive one for people who attend weekly and fork out for television subscriptions.

The bank holiday weekend is an issue, as is the fact that these games are not covered by season tickets. In Munster's case, they've had less than a week to promote the fixture.

They're all valid reasons, but empty seats in May are not a good look for an ambitious, but flawed league.

With chief executive Martin Anayi leading the charge, the PRO14 has worked hard to grow its revenue streams and has succeeded in bringing in more money since expanding into South Africa and in selling the broadcast rights.

But, like Super Rugby, the geographical spread and convoluted format have weakened the competition.

As it stands, we still don't officially know how many teams will be in the PRO14 next year. Nor do we know the format or the make-up of the conferences.

Reports in South Africa last month suggested that another expansion is on the cards, but those have been played down by the organisers.

Even if the same 14 sides line up at the outset, the conferences will be re-jigged just as fans were getting used to them.

Splitting the league in two was necessary, but the games between teams in different conferences have been reduced in importance. Conversely, the inter-conference games gave the potential for cross-border rivalries. After two seasons, the goal-posts will change yet again.

The move into the Southern Hemisphere has brought in new money, but has hardly been a success.

The Cheetahs did well in year one but then had their best assets stripped, while the Southern Kings have added nothing.

Springboks are hard to find across the two squads, but that is in keeping with a league in which the best players feature little.

Essentially, the PRO14 is a league run by the unions whose best interests are served by keeping front-line internationals on ice.

All four Irish provinces have used 50 or more players this season and for long stretches the PRO14 goes on without its leading lights.

From a player welfare standpoint, this is the correct model. In contrast, the longer-established and more prestigious English Premiership and Top 14 flog their players relentlessly.

Few complain when Ireland do well or when the provinces arrive into Europe fresh and ready, but the season suffers on a whole.

There has been well-informed speculation about the private equity firm CVC taking a stake in the PRO14. They have already secured the Premiership and could look to package the sale of broadcast rights together and merge the tournaments at the knock-out stage.

Private ownership could change the complexion of the competition, but at some stage broadcasters will demand a return on their investment, which would mean the best players playing.

In some form or another, the PRO14 has been around for 18 seasons and yet it seems like it is still searching for its place in the world.

With Benetton the first Italian team to make the play-offs and Connacht back in the knock-outs, there are good stories to be told. Celtic Park will make for an exciting final venue, particularly if Glasgow make it.

But the success of a league cannot be defined by one day in May. It has to hold fans' attention from week one and right now it's struggling.”
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Post by marty2086 on Fri 03 May 2019, 12:56 pm

Ulster had maybe one sell out all season. Seems some season ticket holders didn't quite grasp, despite it being explained what the ticket covered, that their season ticket didn't cover the play offs. Id expect there to be over 16k there tomorrow though

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 03 May 2019, 1:02 pm

It's nothing to do with Pro14.... it's just the world in the present.

Bad cool weather. Ireland's relatively poor showing in 6N. People fed up with endless political crap about Brexit and other endless dreary political news. Much needed summer holidays to save for with the addition of maybe another holiday to Japan later in the year for fans with deeper pockets.

I just think the overall mood through Northern Europe just happens to be gloomy and people are also planning ahead about where their spending is going to go this year.

Pro14 has been caught in the gloom, that's all. There'll come more upbeat times and enthusiasm for going to these games will return.

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Post by miaow on Fri 03 May 2019, 1:21 pm

It is to do with Pro14 as well, though, Fly. Let's be honest. Some clear structural issues with the league - QFs are ridiculous, for instance. SFs and a Final is the more reasonable way to do it but the major issues come with the conference system and the addition of 'revenue streams' from the south.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 03 May 2019, 1:43 pm

miaow wrote:It is to do with Pro14 as well, though, Fly. Let's be honest. Some clear structural issues with the league - QFs are ridiculous, for instance. SFs and a Final is the more reasonable way to do it but the major issues come with the conference system and the addition of 'revenue streams' from the south.

Yet the Top 14 don't seem to have an issue with it

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Post by miaow on Fri 03 May 2019, 2:37 pm

That's great. Thanks marty.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 03 May 2019, 3:26 pm

Im merely pointing out that the setup works well elsewhere, you're saying there are clear structural issues, it can't be that clear when those structures work elsewhere

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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 03 May 2019, 4:07 pm

The only comparitor is last season with the new finals stage. The quarterfinals got Munster (10k v Edinburgh) and Scarlets (7k v Cheetahs).
Leinster had a full house 19k vs Munster and Glasgow an expanded full house 10k v Scarlets in the semis.
Going by the doom-laden tone of the article, the forecast figures must be a lot lower.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 03 May 2019, 4:17 pm

Doom is what the Irish Independent does best. It's always a scandal followed by a salacious trial, followed by a political tribunal, followed by mortgages going up, followed by bank loans going down, followed by Bono seen on the town dancing with his misses in a fine Dublin eatery with some celeb pals before going back into a private section where all got privately leggless and retreated for drinks to Killiney hill before a beer and wine breakfast the next morning before going on the holiers to The French chateau.....

Oh sorry, that last bit was the Sunday edition, where everything becomes sunny again - well, for the super rich - before descending again to the gloom of the Dail and hospital waiting lists on Monday.

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Post by miaow on Fri 03 May 2019, 4:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:Im merely pointing out that the setup works well elsewhere, you're saying there are clear structural issues, it can't be that clear when those structures work elsewhere

The Top 14 structure isn't close to the Pro14's structure. It's a league with promotion and relegation, Pro is a conference system with 5 different nations with no relegation/promotion.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 03 May 2019, 4:54 pm

miaow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Im merely pointing out that the setup works well elsewhere, you're saying there are clear structural issues, it can't be that clear when those structures work elsewhere

The Top 14 structure isn't close to the Pro14's structure. It's a league with promotion and relegation, Pro is a conference system with 5 different nations with no relegation/promotion.

Really who knew

Yet none of that is relevant to any of it

You claimed the QFs are a clear structural issue...it ain't that clear when it works elsewhere especially as promotion and relegation don't impact on said play offs Rolling Eyes

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Post by Pot Hale on Fri 03 May 2019, 5:37 pm

miaow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Im merely pointing out that the setup works well elsewhere, you're saying there are clear structural issues, it can't be that clear when those structures work elsewhere

The Top 14 structure isn't close to the Pro14's structure. It's a league with promotion and relegation, Pro is a conference system with 5 different nations with no relegation/promotion.

As Marty correctly points out, promotion/relegation has nothing to do with what kind of playoff system is used. You said in your original response: "Some clear structural issues with the league - QFs are ridiculous, for instance. SFs and a Final is the more reasonable way to do it."

Why are QFs ridiculous? With the increase in the number of teams in the Championship, and the move to a two-conference structure, the organisers decided to expand the finals stage to include 6 teams - similar to what occurs in the Top 14 and in Super Rugby.
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Post by Pot Hale on Sun 05 May 2019, 6:54 pm

Despite Ruaidhri O’Connor’s dire predictions, from the reported attendances for both the QFs, Munster had just over 10k and Ulster had 15k+.    Which is actually an improvement of 8,000 or so on last season.

That puts the total Irish province attendance in PRO14 ahead of where it was last last season after QF stage:

Connacht -  58,329 ___ 66,142 - Up 7,813
Leinster   - 165,793___187,928 - Up 22,135
Munster   - 159,461___142,094 - Down 17,367
Ulster...... - 161,292___152,182 - Down 9,110

Totals.......- 544,875___548,346 Up 3,471

However, attendances are down overall with the regular season from the PRO12 league format when the provinces had 11 regular season games each and got 564,000 (excl semi playoffs) through their gates in 2016/17.  And had over 570,000 approx in the previous regular season.  Leinster are bucking the trend somewhat with overall attendances increasing and playoffs adding to that.

CVC’s investment may become even more compelling and unavoidable.
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Post by miaow on Mon 06 May 2019, 12:04 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
miaow wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Im merely pointing out that the setup works well elsewhere, you're saying there are clear structural issues, it can't be that clear when those structures work elsewhere

The Top 14 structure isn't close to the Pro14's structure. It's a league with promotion and relegation, Pro is a conference system with 5 different nations with no relegation/promotion.

As Marty correctly points out, promotion/relegation has nothing to do with what kind of playoff system is used.   You said in your original response: "Some clear structural issues with the league - QFs are ridiculous, for instance. SFs and a Final is the more reasonable way to do it."

Why are QFs ridiculous?     With the increase in the number of teams in the Championship, and the move to a two-conference structure, the organisers decided to expand the finals stage to include 6 teams - similar to what occurs in the Top 14 and in Super Rugby.

Interesting, but no. These two QFs exist in very different contexts. They're not equal and barely comparable. In any case, the TOP 14 is hardly a model to want to replicate in MANY ways.

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