EPCR Champions Cup Final

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri 10 May 2019, 12:27 pm

Leinster Rugby  v  Saracens

Date: Sat 11 May 2019  17:00 (BST)
Venue: St James' Park



Leinster
15. Rob Kearney, 14. Jordan Larmour, 13. Garry Ringrose, 12. Robbie Henshaw, 11. James Lowe, 10. Johnny Sexton (c), 9. Luke McGrath, 1. Cian Healy, 2. Sean Cronin, 3. Tadhg Furlong, 4. Devin Toner, 5. James Ryan, 6. Scott Fardy, 7. Sean O'Brien, 8. Jack Conan.

Replacements: 16. James Tracy, 17. Jack McGrath, 18. Michael Bent, 19. Rhys Ruddock, 20. Max Deegan, 21. Hugh O'Sullivan, 22. Ross Byrne, 23. Rory O'Loughlin,


Saracens

15. Alex Goode, 14. Liam Williams, 13. Alex Lozowski, 12. Brad Barritt (c), 11. Sean Maitland, 10. Owen Farrell, 9. Ben Spencer, 1. Mako Vunipola, 2. Jamie George, 3. Titi Lamositele, 4. Will Skelton, 5. George Kruis, 6. Maro Itoje, 7. Jackson Wray, 8. Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: 16. Joe Gray, 17. Richard Barrington, 18. Vincent Koch, 19. Nick Isiekwe, 20. Schalk Burger, 21. Richard Wigglesworth, 22. Nick Tompkins, 23. David Strettle,


Referee: Jérome Garcès (France)
AR1: Romain Poite (France)
AR2: Pascal Gauzère (France)
TMO: Philippe Bonhoure (France)

Broadcasters: BT Sport 2 / beIN SPORTS / FR2 / Channel 4 / Virgin Media

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:00 pm

Looking forward to this should be a great game. I'm favouring Saracens though for the win. Skelton has been looking pretty much unplayable and that pack is immense.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:05 pm

Rooting for Saracens in this one. But I think the resources that Leinster have will be too much for them.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:10 pm

Dont know. Tight 5s look very well matched but back row I'd give to Saracens. Again I'd say the back lines are pretty well matched. I think lowe and Ringrose are great points of difference. Never really been sold on lozowski that much though he's had purple patches. Will be interesting to see how Goode plays. Lots of pressure on him as he may feel that a motm may turn Eddie's head with the world cup coming up.

I'm in the camp of couldn't care less who wins and just hoping for a great game.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:11 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
I'm in the camp of couldn't care less who wins and just hoping for a great game.

What nationality are you?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:21 pm

English.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:23 pm

Fair enough. Surprised you don't want a few of your boys to carry the winning feeling and a bit of momentum into the World cup in that case.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:25 pm

Quite a bit of unspoken baggage on this one.  Chance for some Saracens players to smirk: "we told you it weren't no fluke" concerning that game in the 6N.
And some Leinster players get a chance to say: "that's what happens when we're allowed play the game we want to play".

There will undoubtedly be an 'International' flavour to the event.  Worthy final on paper...but now the players on both sides have to prove it was worthy in practice.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:28 pm

It's a club game. I don't support anyone in the league. Where do you feel Leinster have the advantage then rugby fan? I imagine you've seen more than me.

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Post by rodders on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:35 pm

Two great sides but I have to say that Sarries bench looks a lot stronger.

I'd like to see Leinster do it but something tells me Sarries will have a bit too much fire power on Saturday.

James Lowe is the one guy on the Leinster side I see causing problems but I think it needs to stay close on teh scoreboard for Leinster to be in with a chance.
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Post by Rinsure on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:46 pm

Juicy match-ups all the way through. Mako v Furlong? Tasty. Toner v Skelton? Big! Liam Williams v James Lowe? Scorching.

All over the park. Love it. Going to be a tight game - hoping it's an entertaining one!

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:49 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a club game. I don't support anyone in the league. Where do you feel Leinster have the advantage then rugby fan?  I imagine you've seen more than me.

Well firstly they've been able to rest players much more because the English Premiership is a far stronger league than the Pro14.

On average, each Saracens player has played 325 mins more than their Leinster counterpart since the start of the season.

Leinster don't concede many penalties. They score alot of tries through phases off lineouts. They are almost the perfect side, and are fresher. Saracens have a good kicking game but I expect Garces to penalise them heavily at the breakdown and for Leinster to capitalise big time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:55 pm

Saracens have been able to rest a few recently so not sure they can rely on that excuse.

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 10 May 2019, 1:57 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's a club game. I don't support anyone in the league. Where do you feel Leinster have the advantage then rugby fan?  I imagine you've seen more than me.

Well firstly they've been able to rest players much more because the English Premiership is a far stronger league than the Pro14.

On average, each Saracens player has played 325 mins more than their Leinster counterpart since the start of the season.

Leinster don't concede many penalties. They score alot of tries through phases off lineouts. They are almost the perfect side, and are fresher. Saracens have a good kicking game but I expect Garces to penalise them heavily at the breakdown and for Leinster to capitalise big time.

No, the semi final 23s had those averages which included the likes of Hugh O'Sullivan who has completed 40 mins 3 times in his career Rolling Eyes

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saracens have been able to rest a few recently so not sure they can rely on that excuse.

A few.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:02 pm

Happy for Maitland. He has missed out on so many finals over his career so good for him he recovered in time.

I suspect Sarries will shade it given its in England and the Sarries England players will be confident after England's win over Ireland in the 6 nations. It will be tough though because in three outings they have never won v Leinster and Leinster have never lost a final.


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Post by sensisball on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:02 pm

Also with Garces on the whistle, if either scrum can get dominance then they will probably get the benefit through penalties. This is stark contrast to the laissez fair attitude displayed by British and Irish refs who normally seem loathe to let a better scrummaging unit get just reward for their effort and skill.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:04 pm

Well actually rugby fan lets rephrase. They've chosen to rest a few.they could have rested more of they'd have liked. Still won't impact this game. You may well be right that Leinster are the perfect side but Saracens are a class outfit too.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:05 pm

Or refs who ref on a scrum a by scrum basis you mean sensiball?!

He's a good ref though.players should know what to expect.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:07 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well actually rugby fan lets rephrase. They've chosen to rest a few.they could have rested more of they'd have liked. Still won't impact this game. You may well be right that Leinster are the perfect side but Saracens are a class outfit too.

They're both class. But I think the ability of Leinster to have a squad that can compete on 2 fronts - and still rest so many throughout the season is key. English teams can't do that.

325 minutes per man is huge, and will have taken it's toll.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:10 pm

They can rest them through the year. Completely up to them. Comment above though suggest that 325 min is a bit misleading as well. Also depends on injuries etc. Let's face it Saracens have only themselves to blame if their huge squad isn't big enough. Not as if they have any wage restrictions.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:11 pm

Where does that stat come from? 325 minutes is just 4 more games spread out over a season of 30 or 40 games isn't that much. Anyway its up to Sarries to rotate their squad.

Also does the number include international minutes as Leinster does have more international players than Sarries?


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:13 pm

Marty has said it was from the squads in the semi. Yes absolutely agree it's up to Saracens to manage their players.

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:16 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Where does that stat come from? 325 minutes is just 4 more games spread out over a season of 30 or 40 games isn't that much. Anyway its up to Sarries to rotate their squad.

Also does the number include international minutes as Leinster does have more international players than Sarries?

https://twitter.com/EsportifIntel/status/1126456814915260419

Of course Sarries could play their entire Academy side every other game if they wanted. But they wouldn't do very well because their league is harder than Leinster's league.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:18 pm

Really? Saracens and Exeter have been comfortable all year with more pro 14 progressing to the latter stages of Europe?
There's some class players and sides with lots of potential in the jeff but coaching this year and the last couple is ropey.


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Post by rodders on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:19 pm

If you are counting minutes played you need to consider a number of Leinsters first team have been out with lengthy injuries this season - Toner, O'Brien, Henshaw, Sexton, McGrath, Cronin, Ruddock to name a few.

I don't think freshness will be an advantage for Leinster.
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Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:20 pm

I think English teams, whether club or International, are honest.  I think what you see is always what you get.  If they have a certain high mark standard, they want to always play close to that standard - seldom bluffing through a season.  That's why I was a little shocked that Ireland seemed shocked by the standards England hit in that opening game of the 6N.  They were never going to bluff a cold start and we had ample proof that they were in pretty good form during the AI season.
Irish teams - I don't think they're always so honest with performance levels.  They can often play lame duck antics in one contest to gain a bit of a shock level pump in another contest.
So Saracens are Saracens, and will be.  A tough nut to crack for anyone.  Leinster haven't always been so slick this season - perhaps down to that 'evil' rotation gig they do but also some of it is potentially bluff.  They have a gear or two to get to to challenge Saracens for a win.., some will wonder do they actually have it this year, and others will think they might have been hiding it all along.

Getting nervy now wondering just what kind of encounter it will be

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Post by marty2086 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:31 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Well actually rugby fan lets rephrase. They've chosen to rest a few.they could have rested more of they'd have liked. Still won't impact this game. You may well be right that Leinster are the perfect side but Saracens are a class outfit too.

They're both class. But I think the ability of Leinster to have a squad that can compete on 2 fronts - and still rest so many throughout the season is key. English teams can't do that.

325 minutes per man is huge, and will have taken it's toll.

By rest you mean the likes of Sexton and Toner missing large chunks of the season through injury?

You also left out Leinster secured their spot ages ago, meaning they could rotate since they had nothing to compete for in the league not to mention its the semi final teams you are referring too. Should really provide context to that instead of doing your usual of twist facts or flat out lying


Edit by LT:

- please check this
http://www.606v2.com/t68373p100-the-future-of-the-rugby-forum


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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:38 pm

Leinster boast 622 starting Test caps (average - 41)
compared to 462 from Saracens (average - 31)

So Leinster a more experienced side

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:39 pm

There is always the balance to be struck between freshness and being 'battlehardened'.

One has fresh enthusiasm for the fight but risks being well off the pace for the quality and punch of such a top rated fight.
The other might be clinging on to any energy they have left but one more hard battle is just another week's work...let's just do this.

I always feel both sides of the coin balance if all out.  Fair fight.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:51 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Leinster boast 622 starting Test caps (average -  41)
compared to 462 from Saracens (average - 31)

So Leinster a more experienced side

Did you include those test minutes in the Leinster players overall game time this year?

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Post by RugbyFan100 on Fri 10 May 2019, 2:57 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Leinster boast 622 starting Test caps (average -  41)
compared to 462 from Saracens (average - 31)

So Leinster a more experienced side

Did you include those test minutes in the Leinster players overall game time this year?

I didn't include them in anything. These are stats produced by World Rugby Magazine and ESportif professional rugby stat providers. You'll have to ask them.

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Post by SecretFly on Fri 10 May 2019, 3:04 pm

Going by the caps numbers, seems a good few Leinster boys are simply knackered just by longtoothism and long hours in the saddle of both club and International rugby Run

Once more onto the breach....

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Fri 10 May 2019, 3:12 pm

Always the issue when you include stats. You have to know the definitions and thus limitations.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 10 May 2019, 3:29 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Leinster boast 622 starting Test caps (average -  41)
compared to 462 from Saracens (average - 31)

So Leinster a more experienced side

Did you include those test minutes in the Leinster players overall game time this year?

I didn't include them in anything. These are stats produced by World Rugby Magazine and ESportif professional rugby stat providers. You'll have to ask them.

Can you not ask them?

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Post by Brendan on Fri 10 May 2019, 5:22 pm

I'm not sure who will win. I think whoever dominates the first 20 will win. Neither can rely solely on dominating the other (which is generally how they play against other teams).

On who is fresher, both have strong squads and can rotate as much as they want. It's not like teams were sending top teams to London to play Sarries in the league

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Post by Eejit on Fri 10 May 2019, 8:20 pm

Watching the Challenge Cup final. Both these teams are far too good for the diddy cup (combined with moments of madness)

Very entertaining despite the low score so far.

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Post by RDW on Fri 10 May 2019, 8:59 pm

I'm amazed it's such a big crowd too - near sellout on a Friday night with two french teams

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Post by RDW on Fri 10 May 2019, 9:08 pm

Absolutely brutal from Clermont. They'd give both teams tomorrow a good run for their money.

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Post by Eejit on Fri 10 May 2019, 9:24 pm

This game has been really really good.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri 10 May 2019, 10:03 pm

15 Isaia Toeava, 14 Damian Penaud, 13 George Moala, 12 Wesley Fofana, 11 Alivereti Raka

The firepower there...

Pack is pretty good as well. They're going to be a contender next year in the Champions Cup.

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri 10 May 2019, 10:05 pm

That driving maul try I saw was insane. Ridiculous speed. Glad they’ve won a European trophy again, that will now hopefully push them on to win the big one. I really would love them to do that.

Regardless, they’re too good for this comp.

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Post by Brendan on Fri 10 May 2019, 11:44 pm

Hopefully it helps them get over their mental frailties in the big games. In the Quinn's game they struggled when things weren't going their way

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Post by Lagon on Sat 11 May 2019, 1:05 am

Come on Leinster!!!!!


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Post by yappysnap on Sat 11 May 2019, 4:56 am

Cant believe Quins nearly beat that Clermont side. They are so changeable. They just dont have the professionalism od Leinster or Sarries, but they have some amazing players.

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Post by formerly known as Sam on Sat 11 May 2019, 8:02 am

yappysnap wrote:Cant believe Quins nearly beat that Clermont side. They are so changeable. They just dont have the professionalism od Leinster or Sarries, but they have some amazing players.

I'm not sure how well the halfback pairing works. Lopez doesn't take control of the game from 10 and Parra is flakey. Laidlaw isn't one to set the world alight either. If they can get their hands on a quality 10 then they'd be transformed. Can you imagine what Ford or Cipriani would do with that backline and pack.

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Post by VinceWLB on Sat 11 May 2019, 9:53 am

Clermont would be even more impressive with a 9 that speed things up!!

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat 11 May 2019, 9:55 am

Fantastic news that the final is on channel 4

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat 11 May 2019, 10:23 am

Cant figure out why this game is in Newcastle. Organisers of the old Heineken cup had scheduled for it to be played in Italy before the French and English leagues had a strop. Why do relegated Newcastle get to host it and Italy still dont? Why are most finals in England or France?

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Post by The Great Aukster on Sat 11 May 2019, 10:51 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Cant figure out why this game is in Newcastle. Organisers of the old Heineken cup had scheduled for it to be played in Italy before the French and English leagues had a strop. Why do relegated Newcastle get to host it and Italy still dont? Why are most finals in England or France?

Can't imagine that it's because the PRL and the LNR think it gives them a better chance to win it. It's probably because the takings are guaranteed to be big if the Irish are involved?

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