PGA Tour: PGA Championship @ Bethpage: Notes from the Ballwasher

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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 15 May 2019, 2:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

1).Still not a fan of the compressed PGA Tour season, with Majors coming one after the other, rat-a-tat-tat, in indecent haste. And the weather will certainly not be conducive to seeing Long Island's Bethpage Black at its best.
May has been as much a disappointment in the New York area as it has been on Downing Street, with temps below normal, and rainfall above.
So much so that Doncaster's very own Kerry Haigh, the highly regarded PGA course set-up man, was questioning, "Are the trees going to bud, is the grass going to grow?". Apparently both have happened (there, not here), but not in time for the rough to grow in properly, and two inches of rain early this week will leave the course "soft", possibly a euphemism for muddy.

2).Fortunately, the PGA has caught a break in the weather and a threat of rain has diminished (somewhat), and temps approaching 20C are threatened for Thursday. Shangri-La, but the fact remains that spring weather in the North-East is notoriously fickle and one hopes that won't discourage the PGA from holding its great Championship on the great courses here in the future. Venues to come include:
2020: Harding Park, San Francisco
2021: Kiawah Island, South Carolina
2022: Drumpf National, NJ
2023: Oak Hill, Rochester, NY - All PGA Committee members have fingers crossed that there's a warm spring beside Lake Ontario for that one.
2024: Valhalla, Louisville
2026: Aronimink, Shotrockville, Philadelphia
2028: Olympic Club, San Francisco
2029: Baltusrol, NJ
2031: Congressional, Maryland
2025, 2027, still TBA, but Southern Hills in Tulsa has been promised a date.

3).The US Open came to Bethpage for the first time in 2002 (won by Woods), revisited in 2009 (Glover) and the PGA Tour's "Barclays" arrived in 2012 (Watney) and 2016 (Reed). And, as part of the PGA's customary "package deal" for course venues, the 2024 Ryder Cup will be here - imagine any candidate to be appointed the US Captain will already have stipulated the pre-condition that all rough will be mowed to fairway length.

4).Bethpage Black is famously posted as "An extremely difficult course which we recommend only for highly skilled golfers".
Formerly best known as "Plunky's" home course, the "Black" is an AW Tillinghast gem, rated in Golf Digest as his third best design, behind Winged Foot (West), site of the 2020 US Open and San Francisco Golf Club.
"Tillie" is also responsible for Baltusrol (Lower and Upper), Winged Foot (East), Somerset Hills in NJ, Quaker Ridge (NY), Ridgewood CC (NJ), and Philadelphia Cricket Club, plus San Antonio's Breckenridge Park & Oak Hill CC. He had a hand in Inverness and Sleepy Hollow and is probably comparable only to Donald Ross in terms of influence and prolific productivity of great courses in the US.    

5).2002 US Open: Was this better known for Tiger's win, Phil's customary runner-up, the barracking of Sergio's "regripping" epidemic (on his way to a 4th place finish), or Nick Price being unable to reach a fairway or two (on his way to an 8th place finish)?
Harrington finished 8th alongside Charlie Howell, while players who might fancy their chances this week such as Kuchar, Cink, Walker, Scott and Perez all missed the cut.

6).Back again in 2009 and Bethpage was a quagmire with monsoon following monsoon. Lucas Glover took the honours on the Monday, with Phil (you know where he finished), Ross Fisher (5th), Woods (6th), Stenson (9th) and Sergio & Rory (T10th) close behind.
Others with decent finishes included McDowell, Bubba, Westwood, Poults, Holmes, Molinari, Scott and DJ.
Kaymer, Fowler, Sneds, Zach, Kuchar again, Casey, Harrington and Rose missed the cut.  

7).In 2012 the Tour brought the Barclays to Bethpage and all-we-want-is Watney led the way. Too many of this week's field played to mention in detail, but "notables" include:
2nd: Snedeker
T3: DJ, Sergio (great record here, played 3, top ten finishes 3)
T5: Westwood, Harman, Louis
10: Bubba
T19: Harrington, Holmes
T24: Rory & Day
T38: Tiger, Phil, Kooch

8).And in 2016 Patrick Reed won the Barclays. Others:
T4: Day, Woodland and Scott.
T7: Fowler
T10: Spieth
T13: Phil, Bubba
T18: DJ, Louis

Difficult to tell without a ton of research how course set-ups compare, between the USGA and PGA Tour - and now the PGA Of America. But, given wet/drying conditions (where's Derek Underwood when you need him?), one imagines that the winner will be a longer-than-average driver who can keep it straight and possibly hits a higher than average ball.
No doubt that could fit the likes of DJ & Koepka, Rory and Rosey, Scott & Sergio, Casey, Stenson & Louis Oosthuizen. Lucas Glover must be a decent e.w. pick and Tiger can't be ruled out if he's actually fit and undeterred by being sued for wrongful death. That seems like half the field,  Doh

9).The value of a good caddie is often debated on this Board, but there's no doubt that last week's Byron Nelson winner, Sung Kang, had a significant upturn in fortunes in early 2016 when Jim Furyk was sidelined and Kang hired Fluff Cowan on a tournament-by-tournament basis. After struggling through his first few events, Kang hired Cowan and immediately went on a T18, T8, T10, T22 run, including a 60 at Monterey Peninsula CC.
Disappointing weekend from Stenson and Seamus Power, Knox & Laird, but a renaissance round on Sunday from Padraig Harrington - you never know with him, and can quite imagine him plodding round Bethpage for a good result this week.

10).And, just remember, if you blink and miss this Major, there's only four weeks before we cross the country to Pebble Beach for another one, the 2019 US Open.

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Post by Shotrock on Mon 20 May 2019, 2:24 pm

Kwin, why not Koepka at Pebble Beach. Too Narrow for him?

That was a great article about the pompous and inept (bad combination) blue jackets in power for the US Open set ups. A full field "walk off" would be great and may be the only thing to keep these whack jobs in check.

Peter Kostis and Nick Faldo both said the very gusty wind made play late in the afternoon very difficult. So while Brooks didn't look his usual dominant self coming in, he did enough to finish the job.

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Post by wiretapper on Mon 20 May 2019, 2:40 pm

dynamark wrote:Not sure how long your memories go but JD winning the PGA way back was just epic 4th reserve or something driving all night to get there and the moment I remember was the caddie on 18 going 'rip it john' fairy tale stuff and I just loved it at that time .
I know he can be a bit divisive but went on to win the open in a gale in his reebok sweatshirt so can look back on that with pride.
Just chucked a load of cash on steroid injection to avoid the scooter.

Yes unfortunately I am old enough to remember both.

I was working in America when he won at St. Andrews and quite rightly took a slagging off my US golf fan colleagues for stating there was no way he would win. Feherty has a lot to answer for Laugh

I did get my own back with the Ryder cup later that year..

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Post by pedro on Mon 20 May 2019, 2:45 pm

Roller_Coaster wrote:
pedro wrote:
Roller_Coaster wrote:
dynamark wrote:Appreciate the general comments re buggies but I was forced to rent a buggy last Friday to play otherwise no way to play and  I would be giving the game up.
I'm sure JD would play without if he could.  

I'm not sure he would to be honest, but I'm 100% behind buggy use if required or even if desired. Gives you somewhere comfy to sit while the inevitable snooty tw@ts peer down their nose at you!
I have aboslutely no problem with buggies on amateur level, on the contrary. If it can anyway help people getting out playing, that's just fine.
But if you're playing pro golf, no way.

Sorry, my post wasn't clear. I meant us plebs in our day to day hacking can use buggies with impunity.

In principal pros shouldn't but I wouldn't want to fall foul of any disability legislation which would have to apply to professionals in all walks (no pun intended) of life, even if in this instance JD wouldn't have a hope in he11 of winning.

What’s next?
Bigger gloves for short sighted goalkeepers?
That’s why we have the paraolympics.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 20 May 2019, 2:46 pm

Shotrock wrote:Kwin, why not Koepka at Pebble Beach. Too Narrow for him?

That was a great article about the pompous and inept (bad combination) blue jackets in power for the US Open set ups. A full field "walk off" would be great and may be the only thing to keep these whack jobs in check.

Partly trying (not difficult) to be provocative about Koepka, but he avoids the California swing for a reason, one of the biggest reasons being that he doesn't like putting on poa annua (although it sounded as if there was some poa in the Bethpage greens). Plus, he'll be playing against a field where length is not anywhere near as much of an issue, and also because he'll presumably be at a prohibitively short price.
One book I saw suggests:
5/1 Koepka
8/1 DJ
12/1 Woods
14/1 Rory
16/1 Rose
20/1 Thomas, Day, Spieth, Rahm, Fowler
25/1 Schauffele, Molinari, Fleetwood
30/1 Phil and bar them

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Post by GPB on Mon 20 May 2019, 3:34 pm

When Casey Martin first started the "Cart" controversy back in 1998. I supported his position. and I still do.

Anyone that is disabled with a congenital disease ought to be compensated.

But my position goes a little bit further. Casey and Daly either gets a golf cart or a caddie. Not both.

Daly's got an arthritic knee. I think that is more of an injury exacerbated by carrying an extra 120 lbs, step after step. If Daly is granted a cart, then they should not allow him a caddie.

I would not object if every player had the option of either a Caddie or a Cart, not both

I have never subscribed to the USGA, and PGATour and R&A stance that "Walking is an integral part of the Game" 98% of the golf played in the USA is played with a cart. PGATour Q-school used to allow Golf Carts which IMO, totally nullifies the PGATour stance of "Walking is an integral part of the game"

Shotrock (or Kwini): What article about the USGA being Pompous are you talking about?

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Post by Shotrock on Mon 20 May 2019, 3:41 pm

Recent issue of Golf Digest. Here are some of the anonymous quotes: (lifted from another website)

1. "They're amateurs who think they know it all--a dangerous combination."
2. "The USGA is an organization built on egos. It's full of successful people who are not used to being told what to do. And they're very rich, typically. They don't listen when it comes to golf."
3. "I don't understand why we can't have a US Open where the greens actually have living grass on them. Why do they turn up at venues insisting they know how to take care of a course when they don't? Last year at Shinnecock, they had a meeting early in the week with the top superintendents from other Open venues. The USGA was told the course needed water. They just don't listen to people who know what they are doing."
4. "I saw 11 guys out on the greens at Shinnecock last year selecting pin positions. None of them were from the tours, guys who do that every week."
5. "It takes a special sort of arrogance."

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 20 May 2019, 3:48 pm

Don't agree that "98% of the golf played in the USA is played with a cart".

Certainly not at the dozens of courses I've played except the few where walking is not allowed.
I hate using a cart, what's the point?

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Post by Shotrock on Mon 20 May 2019, 3:52 pm

GPB - I use a cart maybe 10% of the time. I'll leave it to others to confirm it's "part of the game" or not, but I much prefer walking.

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Post by NedB-H on Mon 20 May 2019, 4:40 pm

I can’t see why anyone would care in the slightest whether Daly or anyone else uses a buggy or not, I can’t think of anything more trivial. From a TV viewer perspective we were none the wiser apart from a couple of clips of the novelty value; I don’t see that it would have any more impact if he’d been contending either. From a paying spectator perspective, I was at the British Masters last week and there were buggies zooming around all over the place, ferrying referees, markers, marshals, local dignitaries, disqualified players and who knows who else. A couple of players using one would have made not the slightest difference.

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Post by GPB on Mon 20 May 2019, 4:43 pm

IME, 98% of golf is played with a golf cart. It is certainly more than 90%.

At my old course, I would say it is 99.5%.

My problem is the word "integral" part of game.

I would say a putter and ball and cup and driver and lawn mowers are integral parts of the game. Not walking.

Because it is proven over and over again that walking is not necessary to play the game.


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Post by BlueCoverman on Mon 20 May 2019, 5:27 pm

dynamark wrote:Not sure how long your memories go but JD winning the PGA way back was just epic 4th reserve or something driving all night to get there and the moment I remember was the caddie on 18 going 'rip it john' fairy tale stuff and I just loved it at that time .
I know he can be a bit divisive but went on to win the open in a gale in his reebok sweatshirt so can look back on that with pride.
Just chucked a load of cash on steroid injection to avoid the scooter.

I'm getting by on steroid injections and weekly physio at the moment. Good luck Dyna

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 20 May 2019, 6:10 pm

NedB-H wrote:I can’t see why anyone would care in the slightest whether Daly or anyone else uses a buggy or not, I can’t think of anything more trivial. From a TV viewer perspective we were none the wiser apart from a couple of clips of the novelty value; I don’t see that it would have any more impact if he’d been contending either. From a paying spectator perspective, I was at the British Masters last week and there were buggies zooming around all over the place, ferrying referees, markers, marshals, local dignitaries, disqualified players and who knows who else. A couple of players using one would have made not the slightest difference.


I think there should be a "handicapped" tournament - send John Daly off to that and he can ride all he wants, probably win one or two also.
Trouble is, Daly is fortunate in that his health issues, whether self-inflicted or not, still enable him to play - but what about other handicapped individuals? Does Daly get a free ride just because of bad knees and a big gut? Plenty of more deserving cases.

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Post by pedro on Mon 20 May 2019, 6:23 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
NedB-H wrote:I can’t see why anyone would care in the slightest whether Daly or anyone else uses a buggy or not, I can’t think of anything more trivial. From a TV viewer perspective we were none the wiser apart from a couple of clips of the novelty value; I don’t see that it would have any more impact if he’d been contending either. From a paying spectator perspective, I was at the British Masters last week and there were buggies zooming around all over the place, ferrying referees, markers, marshals, local dignitaries, disqualified players and who knows who else. A couple of players using one would have made not the slightest difference.


I think there should be a "handicapped" tournament - send John Daly off to that and he can ride all he wants, probably win one or two also.
Trouble is, Daly is fortunate in that his health issues, whether self-inflicted or not, still enable him to play - but what about other handicapped individuals? Does Daly get a free ride just because of bad knees and a big gut? Plenty of more deserving cases.
Tiger two years ago.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 20 May 2019, 7:08 pm

GPB wrote:IME, 98% of golf is played with a golf cart. It is certainly more than 90%.

At my old course, I would say it is 99.5%.

My problem is the word "integral" part of game.

I would say a putter and ball and cup and driver and lawn mowers are integral parts of the game.  Not walking.

Because it is proven over and over again that walking is not necessary to play the game.


Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh Where has that ever been proven?

Buggy use is probably the complete reverse in the UK and in Europe.

How can you say walking is not part of the game? You can't drive your buggy up on to the tee, or onto the green, or into the ditch, bunker or woods to get/play your ball.  Walking is integral to the game, and if you can't walk, you can't play golf.

Walking is certainly more integral to the game than a driver. I've played plenty rounds of golf without a driver, I've never ever played a single game without walking, I haven't even played a single hole without walking. You can't even get to a driving range without walking, so it's absolutely part of the game to walk.
Some people might walk less than others, but nonetheless, you can't play a round of golf without walking, buggy or not and that's a fact.

The question is, why would anyone want to use a buggy? Isn't it the worst form of laziness unless you've got an injury like one leg or serious medical condition like one lung? (and yes, I have walked around in 40c hear with maximum humidity before anyone asks)


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Post by pedro on Mon 20 May 2019, 7:17 pm

I’d say a buggy makes the game a bit faster and can thus appeal to more people. Or you can feel it easier to sneak 9 holes in.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 20 May 2019, 7:26 pm

pedro wrote:I’d say a buggy makes the game a bit faster and can thus appeal to more people. Or you can feel it easier to sneak 9 holes in.

From what I see buggies don't make any difference to improving the pace of play, unless you're the only one in it. The amount of ground they have to cover for two players who are all over the place is ridiculous.  
Like pulling a three wheel trolley, iron covers and squatting down to put your tee in the ground, they are usually the hallmark of a chopper or the Pub outing.

I can see a case for individual trikes etc being quicker, but I haven't seen that to be the case for buggies with2-3 sets of clubs.
I played a medal on foot the other week in 2hr 20 minutes, never rushing. Can't imagine a buggy being that quick. Surely getting a walk is something that your average fat knacker golfer would actually benefit from?

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 20 May 2019, 8:23 pm

Agree with all that super,
Senior PGA Championship this week, at Oak Hill in Rochester - Daly in the field, but so is Ken Green, and he has a prosthetic leg. Assume carts for the two of them, pity they're not playing together, possibly with Montgomerie; they could do wheelies and donuts around Monty until he combusts.

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Post by NedB-H on Mon 20 May 2019, 8:31 pm

pedro wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:
NedB-H wrote:I can’t see why anyone would care in the slightest whether Daly or anyone else uses a buggy or not, I can’t think of anything more trivial. From a TV viewer perspective we were none the wiser apart from a couple of clips of the novelty value; I don’t see that it would have any more impact if he’d been contending either. From a paying spectator perspective, I was at the British Masters last week and there were buggies zooming around all over the place, ferrying referees, markers, marshals, local dignitaries, disqualified players and who knows who else. A couple of players using one would have made not the slightest difference.


I think there should be a "handicapped" tournament - send John Daly off to that and he can ride all he wants, probably win one or two also.
Trouble is, Daly is fortunate in that his health issues, whether self-inflicted or not, still enable him to play - but what about other handicapped individuals? Does Daly get a free ride just because of bad knees and a big gut? Plenty of more deserving cases.
Tiger two years ago.
I did think about other cases while I was writing the first post. Tony Johnstone carried on playing the seniors in Europe after an MS diagnosis. Morgan Hoffmann is still trying to get by on the PGA Tour with muscular dystrophy. They both clearly have more of a case than Daly, and I think Casey Martin in the original case was a congenital condition.
But we’re all making the assumption that Daly’s health or lack of is purely due to all his drinking, smoking and fast food; which is probably a correct assumption but he’s managed to go out and find a doctor to sign him off for it, while we’re iust making diagnoses from our sofas. And where would you draw the line for self-inflicted? You could argue Tiger’s back troubles are entirely self inflicted from all those years of trying to swing his shoulders out of their sockets.
Seems to me the sensible answer is either not allow them at all, or allow them for any medical problem you can get your doctor to sign you off for, regardless of lifestyle. If you can manage 70-80 swings of a golf club a day but aren’t up to the walk, on you go.

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Post by Shotrock on Mon 20 May 2019, 8:45 pm

As with many things, the cart/walk usage on a golf course gets complicated by a number of factors. If, say, you own an 18 hole course near the beaches in North Carolina and the weather regularly gets to 90F+ (with near equal humidity) during your summer season (when a lot of families obviously go on vacation) then you would be wise to invest in a fleet of carts. And, once you invest in the carts, you build that as a profit center in your pricing (and even artificially reduce your greens fees). You quickly become cart only during the season. Further, private clubs make a huge cart investment and then force revenue streams from those carts during peak hours.  

From a personal standpoint, I ONLY use carts when I am forced to. My back doesn't get as tight when I walk, I play just as quickly (especially when there are cart path only routes on a course), and I am convinced I actually play better golf.

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Post by dynamark on Mon 20 May 2019, 8:58 pm

Good debate folks .I was firmly in the golf includes walking camp until recent reality set in.Last week on the buggy I tried to stay in touch with the other lads at a walking pace to keep a conversation going.
Back to Bethpage I thought the course looked just fantastic a scruffy looking but excellent test.Brooks is not a popular guy but nice to see him helping look for a ball when his partner lost one in the woods.As soon as he(Varner) held the club down the shaft I thought he would struggle to move it.

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Post by NedB-H on Mon 20 May 2019, 9:17 pm

I would have thought pace of play with a buggy would be very course-dependent. I’ve played at courses with long hilly treks from green to tee where a buggy would be very welcome. And other courses where there’s a path for walkers and a wildly circuitous alternative route for four wheels.

Back to the professionals, the first US Open qualifying site is in Texas today, Brian Davis and Martin Laird in contention into the second 18. Kwini’s favourite Matt Jones also. Scores:

https://www.txga.org/2019-US-Open-Sectional-Leaderboard.html

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Post by kwinigolfer on Mon 20 May 2019, 10:18 pm

Hey Ned,
Thanks for that reminder, I hadn't spotted such an uncharacteristically early qualie!

I like Matt Jones for two reasons, lovely golf swing (when not under pressure anyway) and plays at super's 2 hour 20 minutes pace. Shame his putter gets the heebie jeebies when in contention. (Not the only one, of course.)

Surprised to see some signs of life from Brendon Todd recently, and today. He's been to the abyss.
And: A reminder of how Brian Harman's game has crumbled over the past year - haven't seen any reason why.

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Post by GPB on Mon 20 May 2019, 11:14 pm

super_realist wrote:
GPB wrote:

Because it is proven over and over again that walking is not necessary to play the game.


Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh Where has that ever been proven?


And you accuse me of being pedantic.

Of course you have to walk a few steps to the green and to the tee. Maybe a grand total of 150 yds. Obtuse as always.

I haven't walked a course in 30+ years of playing golf. I don't play much anymore, but when I 'quit' playing golf, I hadn't walk a round of golf since the 1980's. Everyone in my club owned their carts (and I did too). That proves to me that walking is not integral. I have found that people that complain about carts are kind of like the USGA and R&A. Pompous, Arrogant, Sanctimonious and Supercilious.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 21 May 2019, 1:25 am

That's pretty effing arrogant, GPB, feel sorry for all the habituees of your club. And their doctors.


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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 21 May 2019, 1:30 am

Not a good second 18 for Laird, or Harman.
But good for Jones and Sweeney . . . . . . . and Davis.

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Post by super_realist on Tue 21 May 2019, 8:03 am

GPB wrote:
super_realist wrote:
GPB wrote:

Because it is proven over and over again that walking is not necessary to play the game.


Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh  Laugh Where has that ever been proven?


And you accuse me of being pedantic.

Of course you have to walk a few steps to the green and to the tee.  Maybe a grand total of 150 yds.  Obtuse as always.

I haven't walked a course in 30+ years of playing golf.  I don't play much anymore, but when I 'quit' playing golf, I hadn't walk a round of golf since the 1980's.  Everyone in my club owned their carts (and I did too).  That proves to me that walking is not integral.  I have found that people that complain about carts are kind of like the USGA and R&A.  Pompous, Arrogant, Sanctimonious and Supercilious.

150 yards? Ha ha. Good one, 8 yards per hole? Ha ha ha ha.  Sure.

A lot of courses have tracks which the buggy cannot leave, so you're walking all over the bloody place, and you probably walk 8 yards just getting out of the buggy to play each shot even if you are allowed on the fairway with your cart and then you have to go to the back of the buggy, pick a club then get back to your ball. You must walk at least 30 yards per green, and probably the same getting from a buggy to the tee. 150 yards over 18 holes?  Laugh I would suspect it's at least 4 or 5 times that amount.

I'm fine if you want to use a buggy. I simply think it makes you incredibly idle and lazy in my opinion, but then again being idle is an American institution and they will  drive absolutely everywhere if they can. I don't really see why anyone who was capable of walking would take a cart.

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Post by beninho on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:04 am

Walk or take a cart. Who cares.

Either way, I find it hard to have an extreme view one way or another, I also find it hard to accept anyone does have an extreme view.

Its golf, play it however you want and however you enjoy it.


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Post by Roller_Coaster on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:09 am

pedro wrote:
Roller_Coaster wrote:
pedro wrote:
Roller_Coaster wrote:
dynamark wrote:Appreciate the general comments re buggies but I was forced to rent a buggy last Friday to play otherwise no way to play and  I would be giving the game up.
I'm sure JD would play without if he could.  

I'm not sure he would to be honest, but I'm 100% behind buggy use if required or even if desired. Gives you somewhere comfy to sit while the inevitable snooty tw@ts peer down their nose at you!
I have aboslutely no problem with buggies on amateur level, on the contrary. If it can anyway help people getting out playing, that's just fine.
But if you're playing pro golf, no way.

Sorry, my post wasn't clear. I meant us plebs in our day to day hacking can use buggies with impunity.

In principal pros shouldn't but I wouldn't want to fall foul of any disability legislation which would have to apply to professionals in all walks (no pun intended) of life, even if in this instance JD wouldn't have a hope in he11 of winning.

What’s next?
Bigger gloves for short sighted goalkeepers?
That’s why we have the paraolympics.

No, but unsmashable glasses or contacts would be a better parallel for a short sighted goalkeeper.

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Post by NedB-H on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:16 am

beninho wrote:Walk or take a cart. Who cares.

Either way, I find it hard to have an extreme view one way or another, I also find it hard to accept anyone does have an extreme view.

Its golf, play it however you want and however you enjoy it.  

clap clap clap

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:34 am

NedB-H wrote:
beninho wrote:Walk or take a cart. Who cares.

Either way, I find it hard to have an extreme view one way or another, I also find it hard to accept anyone does have an extreme view.

Its golf, play it however you want and however you enjoy it.  

clap clap clap
Nice sentiment, but I think there's more nuance than that. I'm fine if a real disability justifies it, and as long as that is appropriately policed, but outside of that during serious competition, either all should have the option, or no-one does.
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Post by beninho on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:47 am

I guess the line is at a professional competition. Any hobby golfers should play However they want.

Personally, it doesn't bother me if someone was to use one at any big or small event.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 21 May 2019, 1:10 pm

Super

Please explain the details of how you played a medal in 2hrs 20? Group size, course, position in draw, player quality etc?
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Post by super_realist on Tue 21 May 2019, 5:43 pm

2 ball, no one in front, both low handicappers, par 70 course (Eden)

Why does it matter? Do you think 2 hours 20 is not realistic? If you don't faff, don't have anyone holding you up then it's perfectly possible. I was as surprised as you when I looked at my watch to see how quickly we'd got round as we hadn't been rushing. Just goes to show that who is in proximity has a big bearing on how quick you are.

Played a local clubs medal on Sunday in 3.10 on Sunday. Do you think that is unreasonable?

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Post by beninho on Tue 21 May 2019, 7:00 pm

Isn't the fun of golf the social element aswell. Playing and chatting with people?

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Post by super_realist on Tue 21 May 2019, 7:11 pm

Of course, we didn't even realise we were getting around quickly it was simply a natural pace. Fair enough it's a pretty short course, but never felt like we were rushing.

I'm not one of these people desperate to get off the golf course and if it takes 4 hours, it takes 4 hours what I don't like is waiting on every single shot.

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Post by GPB on Tue 21 May 2019, 7:22 pm

150 yards? Ha ha. Good one, 8 yards per hole? Ha ha ha ha.  Sure.

didn't i say something about being pedantic?

============

kwinigolfer wrote:That's pretty effing arrogant, GPB, feel sorry for all the habituees of your club. And their doctors.


Talk about arrogant.

=============

BTW, I can believe Super and a playing companion would play in 2 hr 20 minutes. Who wants to be out there with him? I might go into an all out sprint!


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Post by beninho on Tue 21 May 2019, 8:35 pm

Wesley Bryan went round on his own on 1hr30. The fastest recorded time is 30minutes. Both these were single players sprinting.

A 2ball at 2.20 is pretty bloody quick then.

Ill put in the didn't happen box.

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Post by NedB-H on Tue 21 May 2019, 8:45 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
NedB-H wrote:
beninho wrote:Walk or take a cart. Who cares.

Either way, I find it hard to have an extreme view one way or another, I also find it hard to accept anyone does have an extreme view.

Its golf, play it however you want and however you enjoy it.  

clap clap clap
Nice sentiment, but I think there's more nuance than that. I'm fine if a real disability justifies it, and as long as that is appropriately policed, but outside of that during serious competition, either all should have the option, or no-one does.
You’re describing exactly the scenario we currently have navy. So I can only assume that you’re inferring Daly’s case isn’t a “real disability”. You’re entitled to that opinion, but if that’s the rule there needs to be a definition of what counts, and the standard definition is to be signed off by a medical professional. Which Daly has been. I can’t think of any better way of policing it.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:11 pm

Talking about handicapped golfers, it seems Justin Thomas's wrist is healing sufficiently for him to have committed for next week's Memorial Tournament.
And an interesting story on pgatour.com about Boo Weekley having a cancerous cyst/lump gouged out of his shoulder. He plays this week as a Past Champion at Colonial having played well last month for a T25 at Harbour Town

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Post by ralphjohn69 on Wed 22 May 2019, 12:24 am

beninho wrote:Wesley Bryan went round on his own on 1hr30. The fastest recorded time is 30minutes. Both these were single players sprinting.

A 2ball at 2.20 is pretty bloody quick then.

Ill put in the didn't happen box.

Far be it from me to stick up for Super but a 2 hr 20 round in a 2-ball in a medal is perfectly plausible; I've done it a few times with no-one in front of us, in fact 2hrs 15 is about the quickest. My regular 3-ball, if out first, are usually round in about 2 hrs 45; admittedly 3 cat. 1 players on a par 69 5600-yard course, but we don't have to rush to get round in that time. Usually those who don't believe that such rounds are possible are the ones who think 4-hour+ rounds are perfectly reasonable, which they're not.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 22 May 2019, 7:49 am

ralphjohn69 wrote:
beninho wrote:Wesley Bryan went round on his own on 1hr30. The fastest recorded time is 30minutes. Both these were single players sprinting.

A 2ball at 2.20 is pretty bloody quick then.

Ill put in the didn't happen box.

Far be it from me to stick up for Super but a 2 hr 20 round in a 2-ball in a medal is perfectly plausible; I've done it a few times with no-one in front of us, in fact 2hrs 15 is about the quickest.  My regular 3-ball, if out first, are usually round in about 2 hrs 45; admittedly 3 cat. 1 players on a par 69 5600-yard course, but we don't have to rush to get round in that time.  Usually those who don't believe that such rounds are possible are the ones who think 4-hour+ rounds are perfectly reasonable, which they're not.

They're probably also taking about 90 shots and not actually looking where their ball goes, stand at the green looking back up the fairway to count shots of their partner, aren't playing ready golf, are taking practice swings, using trolleys, walking like they're going to the gallows etc.

I walk quick, play quick, don't take many shots and the Eden is only 6250 yards long with hardly any distance between green and the next tee. It's funny to think that just because some fat knacker isn't capable of 2.20, then that must mean that no one else is.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 22 May 2019, 9:38 am

NedB-H wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
NedB-H wrote:
beninho wrote:Walk or take a cart. Who cares.

Either way, I find it hard to have an extreme view one way or another, I also find it hard to accept anyone does have an extreme view.

Its golf, play it however you want and however you enjoy it.  

clap clap clap
Nice sentiment, but I think there's more nuance than that. I'm fine if a real disability justifies it, and as long as that is appropriately policed, but outside of that during serious competition, either all should have the option, or no-one does.
You’re describing exactly the scenario we currently have navy. So I can only assume that you’re inferring Daly’s case isn’t a “real disability”. You’re entitled to that opinion, but if that’s the rule there needs to be a definition of what counts, and the standard definition is to be signed off by a medical professional. Which Daly has been. I can’t think of any better way of policing it.
I'm not trying to infer anything re. Daly. I didn't know the Tours allowed cart use for situations like Daly's, as standard and if supported by medical evidence. Has that changed since the issue with whomever the guy was (mentioned earlier; can't remember his name) with the congenital disability?
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Post by pedro on Wed 22 May 2019, 11:12 am

Casey Martin or somthing like that. As far as I recall he was denied the use of a cart. But he was not a crowd pleaser - and as we know there are different sets of rules for different people.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 22 May 2019, 11:18 am

Not a crowd pleaser but a FOT's and that helped him I would think. Now has a high reputation as a College coach.

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Post by GPB on Wed 22 May 2019, 4:32 pm

I saw Casey Martin play in a Hooters Tour event back before the 1998 US Open. He was using a cart but even watching him walk to green was almost like watching a side show at a the county carnival.

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Post by pedro on Wed 22 May 2019, 8:22 pm

For those who’s interested:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PGA_Tour,_Inc._v._Martin

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Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 23 May 2019, 4:00 pm

GPB wrote:I saw Casey Martin play in a Hooters Tour event back before the 1998 US Open.  He was using a cart but even watching him walk to green was almost like watching a side show at a the county carnival.  


GPB,
Are you steering clear of the tornados? Good luck with that.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 23 May 2019, 5:20 pm

super_realist wrote:2 ball, no one in front, both low handicappers, par 70 course (Eden)

Just make sure you are not one of those arse holes who plays thinking about the clock, worrying about where they will get to play through and generally failing to grasp what golf is actually about.

I have played many rounds on my own at about that pace and to be honest it felt rushed, hard to imagine how rushed getting 2 players round in 2.20 (<5mins/hole) must feel.
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Post by beninho on Thu 23 May 2019, 7:21 pm

Just under 8mins a hole for a 2 ball. Thats pretty quick

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Post by ralphjohn69 on Fri 24 May 2019, 1:44 am

beninho wrote:Just under 8mins a hole for a 2 ball. Thats pretty quick

Eh, sorry, it really isn't.

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