Club vs Country? NH vs SH? Seismic change?

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Post by quinsforever on Tue 21 May 2019, 9:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Big meeting in the next 24 hours

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/48348250

Personally, i hope this initiative never gets off the ground.

Grassroots support and participation are the genesis of quality rugby players. Australia are lacking so should the rest of the world bail them out financially so they can recruit from Aus League? Hell no IMO.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:22 pm

ebop wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
ebop wrote:Maybe some of these players want to play for the ABs?
Yes that's the point, it secures their rugby future simple as. Yet more island players lost.
Sevu for example made a decision to move to NZ to attend high school. Who knows what he wants to do? He may play for Fiji he may not. Point is, in NZ, we’re not ‘importing’ or ‘buying’ rugby players, they come here of their own accord and if they’re good enough they rise up and make a name for themselves and some decide to play for their adopted country if they’re lucky. There’s not that many over history. More Pacific Islanders in NZ play for their homeland or parents’ homeland than do for the ABs. The NH clubs are the ones ‘buying’ up pre-packaged professionals and then the unions cap them which is pretty darned cynical.

Hahahahahaha Yahoo

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:34 pm

He's a comedy genius.

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Post by The Great Aukster on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:34 pm

It was certainly magnanimous for the Chiefs to give up home advantage to play in Fiji, and the heat undoubtedly contributed to the bucketload of handling errors and 34 turnovers in the game. A massive quarter (27%) of the tackles attempted were missed, could that have contributed to a high 'metres ran' figure? It's also interesting that there were 67 kicks from hand which was around 11% of the kick/pass/run opportunities - definitely something not seen in the NH.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:37 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:It was certainly magnanimous for the Chiefs to give up home advantage to play in Fiji, and the heat undoubtedly contributed to the bucketload of handling errors and 34 turnovers in the game. A massive quarter (27%) of the tackles attempted were missed, could that have contributed to a high 'metres ran' figure? It's also interesting that there were 67 kicks from hand which was around 11% of the kick/pass/run opportunities - definitely something not seen in the NH.

Lol, all you had to do was watch the match to know that the defending was poor. Heat may have contributed alright.

ABs kicking stats also tend to be above average in frequency for international sides.

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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:48 pm

So all of a sudden the best club team in the world can’t defend?
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:49 pm

ebop wrote:So all of a sudden the best club team in the world can’t defend?

Yeah it was unexpected as their defence has been good up to that game. It wasn't good in that game though, Mo'unga in particular was like a turnstyle. Just saying what I saw, stats and reality back it up too.


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Post by Rugby Fan on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:49 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:It was certainly magnanimous for the Chiefs to give up home advantage to play in Fiji, and the heat undoubtedly contributed to the bucketload of handling errors and 34 turnovers in the game. A massive quarter (27%) of the tackles attempted were missed, could that have contributed to a high 'metres ran' figure? It's also interesting that there were 67 kicks from hand which was around 11% of the kick/pass/run opportunities - definitely something not seen in the NH.
Scotty 'Sumo' Stevenson asked Scott Robinson if he'd be happy to play in Fiji again. Robinson didn't say "no", but did suggest that it really needed to be in a sweet spot for the team (either after a bye, or before a bye).

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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 2:54 pm

Fiji is a tropical climate and it’s freaking hot and humid all day every day and you just sweat buckets standing still. These guys spend less than a week there after flying from NZ winter. It takes a while to adjust. The games in Fiji are always entertaining as the crowd is sensational and amp it up. NZ rugby teams aren’t dour shrinking violets that think ‘I know what, let’s defend defend defend and bore these rugby loving Fijians to tears’. No, they rise up to the occasion and put on a show. Because they can Guns. Ireland may struggle to win games after going behind on the scoreboard but this is not a NZ mindset and you saw it with the Chiefs in Suva.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:18 pm

ebop wrote:Fiji is a tropical climate and it’s freaking hot and humid all day every day and you just sweat buckets standing still. These guys spend less than a week there after flying from NZ winter. It takes a while to adjust. The games in Fiji are always entertaining as the crowd is sensational and amp it up. NZ rugby teams aren’t dour shrinking violets that think ‘I know what, let’s defend defend defend and bore these rugby loving Fijians to tears’. No, they rise up to the occasion and put on a show. Because they can Guns. Ireland may struggle to win games after going behind on the scoreboard but this is not a NZ mindset and you saw it with the Chiefs in Suva.

Well it might have been the heat but lets not pretend the defending was "good".

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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:20 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:It was certainly magnanimous for the Chiefs to give up home advantage to play in Fiji, and the heat undoubtedly contributed to the bucketload of handling errors and 34 turnovers in the game. A massive quarter (27%) of the tackles attempted were missed, could that have contributed to a high 'metres ran' figure? It's also interesting that there were 67 kicks from hand which was around 11% of the kick/pass/run opportunities - definitely something not seen in the NH.
That’s a fair summary. The running metres were in the 700 m range from memory. A lot of kicking (not to touch) and a lot of running it back with interest and rinse / repeat. It’s hard work and tackles are missed. NZ teams and the ABs play this way because they back themselves to keep going. Eventually a team will kick it out if they need a breather but the aim is to keep it live and look for opportunities in defence and attack.
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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:23 pm

Guns, didn’t say the defending was good, but the attack was fantastic. I doubt many teams would have been able to keep up and make ‘all’ tackles when the game was played in that fashion. Both teams could have reigned it in and gone all conservative and played kick-clap rugby, but the occasion didn’t deserve it, and neither team considered dour defence orientated rugby the best option to win the game.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:28 pm

ebop wrote:Guns, didn’t say the defending was good, but the attack was fantastic. I doubt many teams would have been able to keep up and make ‘all’ tackles when the game was played in that fashion. Both teams could have reigned it in and gone all conservative and played kick-clap rugby, but the occasion didn’t deserve it, and neither team considered dour defence orientated rugby the best option to win the game.

The Crusaders usually play a much tighter more organised brand of rugby whereas the Chiefs tend to prefer the more open game. I think on this occasion the Crusaders were dragged into a game that didn't really play to their strengths. Maybe the occasion got to them? Maybe the incidents in SA were too much of a distraction?

Like I said in my original post, like it or not defending is key to the ABs chances of winning another RWC as Mark Reason pointed out in his article the ABs have conceded significantly less points per game in the 3 RWCs they won.

Don't you think that this sort of game was out of character for the Crusaders?

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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:39 pm

I don’t think so. The Crusaders open it up when the opportunity arises. Maybe you haven’t watched enough of their games. They have a maul and get the forwards involved when they’re in the attacking zone but they’ve got very good backs (ABs) that carve up. They were on to win the game but Cane got two critical turnovers late in the game. The SA incidents are fish wrap paper and the two knob head locals got their 5 seconds of social media fame. What happened with that? Nothing. The NZ players should sue them for defamation.
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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:47 pm

Lol Guns, you’re referencing Mark Reason, that’s nOOb stuff
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:51 pm

According to "science" Mo'unga is tied with Peter O'Mahoney as the worlds most influential player.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/112160813/the-data-is-in-all-black-richie-mounga-is-the-worlds-most-influential-player

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:51 pm

ebop wrote:Lol Guns, you’re referencing Mark Reason, that’s nOOb stuff

He is the voice of Reason. Anyway it doesn't matter who said it the stats don't change, there is a correlation with low points conceded and winning RWCs.

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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:55 pm

True, there’s also a correlation between Ireland not being able to score many points and not getting past the semifinal stage. Stats don’t lie.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:58 pm

ebop wrote:True, there’s also a correlation between Ireland not being able to score many points and not getting past the semifinal stage. Stats don’t lie.

Its not a stat if you just made it up but yes Ireland haven't made a semi yet but for lots of reasons. Not sure what the Crusaders v Chiefs game has got to do with Ireland anyway.


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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:59 pm

Guns, is there a correlation between Sexton’s sulkiness and Ireland losses? I bet there is if we looked into it. Is he singlehandedly to blame for Ireland’s fall from grace this year? He was very average in the 6Ns. Couldn’t do anything right.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 4:01 pm

Again you seem to be getting side tracked. Is there a correlation with Sexton's 3 wins v NZ and the amount of time you want to talk about him on unrelated threads? You know that no current international out half has as good a hit rate v NZ than Sexton. Want to keep it on topic?

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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 4:05 pm

Ireland would collapse without Sexton, who’s the backup again? A couple of guys playing in England was it? Shame those terrible English clubs have poached your amazing back up first fives because if tragedy struck and Sexton went down who would take the reins and lead Ireland to actually score some points?!! It’s an alarming thought Guns.
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Post by ebop on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 4:07 pm

Keep it on topic Guns? You mean discussing a NZ SR team’s defence? Ummm, you need to get your logic right, check the topic.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 4:12 pm

Well the last 2 pages of this chat have been about that match.

Ireland do have good back up 10s. Carbery is a very good player as is Ross Byrne at Leinster. Id be happy for either of those guys to step up and take the reigns.

Some good players at under 20s level. Ireland's replacement 10 Ben Healy looks a decent prospect. He played well in Ireland's win 40 points plus win over England a few days ago.


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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 4:14 pm

ebop wrote:Ireland would collapse without Sexton, who’s the backup again? A couple of guys playing in England was it? Shame those terrible English clubs have poached your amazing back up first fives because if tragedy struck and Sexton went down who would take the reins and lead Ireland to actually score some points?!! It’s an alarming thought Guns.

Ireland have a very decent points average at international level. I remember them putting 40 points on NZ a few years ago. That must have hurt. Ouch.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 7:18 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
ebop wrote:Ireland would collapse without Sexton, who’s the backup again? A couple of guys playing in England was it? Shame those terrible English clubs have poached your amazing back up first fives because if tragedy struck and Sexton went down who would take the reins and lead Ireland to actually score some points?!! It’s an alarming thought Guns.

Ireland have a very decent points average at international level. I remember them putting 40 points on NZ a few years ago. That must have hurt. Ouch.

After thirty odd win-less? Naah, its the least we could do. Entire Irish generations have come and gone without seeing a result like that. May as well make the most of it. Though, not sure how many were in Chicago to see it.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 8:10 pm

I was meant to go, had a ticket for the game. A load of school friends went. Regretted not going although was there in Lansdowne in November when we won so all good.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 1:14 am

Yep, now time to win one that means something. thumbsup

This year really needs to see a much heavier NH presence in the last 4 onwards if theyre to be to be considered as true world leaders in this sport.

With 3 out of four with now seasoned SH coaches, all three having won a grand slam each minimum, as well as having extensive knowledge of SH rugby, an all time record SH presence in both club and International sides and the demise of the SH sides in terms of the rankings over the last three seasons, a non semi final presence would probably be unnacceptable.

And theres again a distinct possibility of that with one of the more likely outcomes a NH vs SH match up in each quarter final, a non finals presence not much better.

Are the north going to lead this sport by the $$ and crowds as opposed to winning on the big stage or is Home unions rugby going to be like an England 66, all the gold and glitter at club level, nothing above it. Presently, its certainly the former, WCup time is when that needs to change... BIG time.

...no pressure thumbsup

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Post by The Great Aukster on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 11:30 am

ebop wrote:Fiji is a tropical climate and it’s freaking hot and humid all day every day and you just sweat buckets standing still. These guys spend less than a week there after flying from NZ winter. It takes a while to adjust. The games in Fiji are always entertaining as the crowd is sensational and amp it up. NZ rugby teams aren’t dour shrinking violets that think ‘I know what, let’s defend defend defend and bore these rugby loving Fijians to tears’. No, they rise up to the occasion and put on a show. Because they can Guns. Ireland may struggle to win games after going behind on the scoreboard but this is not a NZ mindset and you saw it with the Chiefs in Suva.

Since both teams were away from home, and playing in a climate they were neither accustomed nor acclimatised to in front of a crowd that they didn't want to bore to tears, how can that particular match be representative of SH rugby either in defence or attack?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 11:52 am

Taylorman wrote:Yep, now time to win one that means something. thumbsup

This year really needs to see a much heavier NH presence in the last 4 onwards if theyre to be to be considered as true world leaders in this sport.

With 3 out of four with now seasoned SH coaches, all three having won a grand slam each minimum, as well as having extensive knowledge of SH rugby, an all time record SH presence in both club and International sides and the demise of the SH sides in terms of the rankings over the last three seasons, a non semi final presence would probably be unnacceptable.

And theres again a distinct possibility of that with one of the more likely outcomes a NH vs SH match up in each quarter final, a non finals presence not much better.

Are the north going to lead this sport by the $$ and crowds as opposed to winning on the big stage or is Home unions rugby going to be like an England 66, all the gold and glitter at club level, nothing above it. Presently, its certainly the former, WCup time is when that needs to change... BIG time.

...no pressure thumbsup

Yes I somewhat agree, it would be great to see Ireland get to a semi and it is really the line separates success and failure for them this year. I would like to see the other NH sides do well but I do also support Argentina as I spend a lot of time there as my wife is Argentinian and I also support Australia as I am half Australian. As such I'm not that bothered by SH v NH outcomes Ireland doing well by far trumps anything else.

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 10:09 am

Having faced a number of player exoduses over recent years, SA Rugby has announced a new model of contracting that will help the Springboks retain players and align themselves more successfully with the provincial unions.

Whether through the weakness of the Rand in comparison to European and Japanese currencies or through a number of high-profile mismanagement incidents at the provincial unions, South Africa has seen plenty of their players head overseas, as well as several off-field controversies at the administration level.

SA Rugby has contracted centrally since the advent of professionalism, although a new deal has been struck between the South African Rugby Employers’ Organisation (SAREO) and MyPlayers, the players’ association in the country that will see that change.

Under this new agreement, there will be squad size and budget caps implemented per union, whilst there will also be defined categories for payment, including professional, semi-professional and development, with the latter for players under the age of 21 and not yet offered a professional contract.

Professional players will be eligible to play in Super Rugby, the Guinness PRO14 and the Currie Cup Premier Division, whilst semi-professional players will be limited to the Currie Cup First Division and SuperSport Rugby Challenge. Development players will generally be limited to under-21 and under-20 competition, although they may also be used as temporary replacements for professional and semi-professional players in their respective competitions.

More at:
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/sa-rugby-reveals-its-new-model-to-keep-players-and-salary-cap-for-pro-teams
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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 10:23 am

Are the free to play for any Pro14 team or just the two South African ones I wonder?

Interesting article. I think Rassie pulled a master stroke by insisting that he was appointed as director of rugby as well as coach. He seems to have been able to make a lot of changes to the benefit of the team as a result.

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Post by Pot Hale on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 12:21 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:Are the free to play for any Pro14 team or just the two South African ones I wonder?

Interesting article. I think Rassie pulled a master stroke by insisting that he was appointed as director of rugby as well as coach. He seems to have been able to make a lot of changes to the benefit of the team as a result.

On your first question, I don't know but you'd think they'd want them playing for SA teams since they're talking about paying them.

Agreed on Erasmus - himself and Roux waited until they had formally ousted Coetzee as coach, before they announced him becoming DOR, and then two days later, announced he'd signed his B10 to become a director of PRO14/Celtic Rugby DAC.

What remains to be seen is if this first part of their cull and divide plan to spread talent more evenly across their 8 franchise teams.  Griquas and Pumas are being given Connacht-style budgets so it remains to be seen where these development teams will be placed - SR or PRO14? One in each?
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 12 Jun 2019, 11:47 am

Brodie Retallick  signs a new deal with NZRFU taking him through to RWC 2023. However he will skip the next two NZ seasons to play in Japan and an extended family break.


Steve Hansen wrote:"While there's a playing sabbatical during that time - and Brodie will no doubt be missed - it also gives the future All Blacks coaches the opportunity to build even more depth in that position.

"I congratulate NZR on being inventive in their contracting process, as there would have been many offers for him to leave permanently."


Rumours that Beauden Barrett will do something similar - with a single year in Japan and then possibly a move to Auckland. While players on the fringes of the All Blacks may continue to come to Europe, this kind of deal makes much more sense for the stars. Much reduced intensity and a nice pay check.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 12 Jun 2019, 11:54 am

Yeah it makes a lot of sense for Kiwis. Retallick seems to be in need of a break too. He was excellent in 2017 but was injured or off form for much of 2018.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 13 Jun 2019, 6:06 am

That's a massive impact on how good this New Zealand team is. Rettalick makes a huge difference. Head and shoulders the best and most influential player in the world.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu 13 Jun 2019, 9:04 am

You reckon? I agree he can be a great player and definitely has been at times but he wasn't that good last year. Injuries and lack of form to blame, I suspect though if he is taking two years out he will come back with his best years behind him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Thu 13 Jun 2019, 10:48 am

Easily still the best.

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Post by ebop on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 10:38 am

French clubs are cancer

“Steve Jackson, who'll coach Samoa at the World Cup, says he's already had players at French clubs tell him they've had to make themselves unavailable.”

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/rwc-2019-japan/113489285/samoa-tonga-players-pressured-by-french-clubs-to-miss-rugby-world-cup
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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 3:00 pm

ebop wrote:French clubs are cancer

“Steve Jackson, who'll coach Samoa at the World Cup, says he's already had players at French clubs tell him they've had to make themselves unavailable.”

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/rwc-2019-japan/113489285/samoa-tonga-players-pressured-by-french-clubs-to-miss-rugby-world-cup
They really are in an awful situation, with SH clubs pressuring players to not play for their national teams for fear of terminating their contracts and French clubs not releasing players, it's amazing how well the PIs still do. It would be nice to see world rugby take action and punish clubs.

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Post by ebop on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 4:12 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
ebop wrote:French clubs are cancer

“Steve Jackson, who'll coach Samoa at the World Cup, says he's already had players at French clubs tell him they've had to make themselves unavailable.”

http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup/rwc-2019-japan/113489285/samoa-tonga-players-pressured-by-french-clubs-to-miss-rugby-world-cup
They really are in an awful situation, with SH clubs pressuring players to not play for their national teams for fear of terminating their contracts and French clubs not releasing players, it's amazing how well the PIs still do. It would be nice to see world rugby take action and punish clubs.
Yeah, those NH clubs are a disgrace, not just France. Did you ever produce a source that says SH clubs are pressuring players to not play in the RWC? Still waiting.....tick tock
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Post by LondonTiger on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 4:20 pm

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/six-players-on-fiji-radar-yet-to-make-themselves-available-for-rugby-world-cup/

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 5:05 pm

Have the Saders said they won’t release Reece? He should have plenty of time to join them in any case as they wrap up soon. I thought he was trying for the ABs?

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 7:59 pm

People still don't get it that clubs think of themselves as competitors to International in the Union game. They don't want sharing the audience, they want to control it. They're trying to buy out International, trying to assume ownership (middle to long term goal I'd reckon)

And this player release stuff is designed to create tension, create lines of friction and division with the Unions so that the club organisations can whisper through with their ideas on making things better, smoother, more lucrative, more acceptable to all.......... but club controlling fingers in International will be the demand.




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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:03 pm

Taylorman wrote:Have the Saders said they won’t release Reece? He should have plenty of time to join them in any case as they wrap up soon. I thought he was trying for the ABs?
Why would the saders say that they won't release him? That would look incredibly bad on the club. He is trying for the ABs because his move to Europe fell through and this is a way of securing his rugby future. There's very little job security for foreign players in the SH.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:07 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Have the Saders said they won’t release Reece? He should have plenty of time to join them in any case as they wrap up soon. I thought he was trying for the ABs?
Why would the saders say that they won't release him? That would look incredibly bad on the club. He is trying for the ABs because his move to Europe fell through and this is a way of securing his rugby future. There's very little job security for foreign players in the SH.

Because thats what LTs article link inferred. Havent heard anything about Reece indicating he wanted to play for Fiji, though havent followed it closely.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:16 pm

Taylorman wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Have the Saders said they won’t release Reece? He should have plenty of time to join them in any case as they wrap up soon. I thought he was trying for the ABs?
Why would the saders say that they won't release him? That would look incredibly bad on the club. He is trying for the ABs because his move to Europe fell through and this is a way of securing his rugby future. There's very little job security for foreign players in the SH.

Because thats what LTs article link inferred. Havent heard anything about Reece indicating he wanted to play for Fiji, though havent followed it closely.
Who doesn't want to represent their country? Headscratch

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Post by SecretFly on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:27 pm

Stephen Ireland?

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Post by Gooseberry on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:30 pm

Shingler?

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Post by LeinsterFan4life on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:42 pm

SecretFly wrote:Stephen Ireland?
Laugh To be fair he has a few caps for us.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun 16 Jun 2019, 8:54 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Taylorman wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Have the Saders said they won’t release Reece? He should have plenty of time to join them in any case as they wrap up soon. I thought he was trying for the ABs?
Why would the saders say that they won't release him? That would look incredibly bad on the club. He is trying for the ABs because his move to Europe fell through and this is a way of securing his rugby future. There's very little job security for foreign players in the SH.

Because thats what LTs article link inferred. Havent heard anything about Reece indicating he wanted to play for Fiji, though havent followed it closely.
Who doesn't want to represent their country? Headscratch

Perhaps ask the plethora of players that go north every year, either to prematurely end their test careers or before they start. You can probably find one by just walking down the street, there’s that many.

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