Argentina to Win the Rugby Championship?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri May 31 2019, 10:22

First topic message reminder :

Something seems to be brewing in Argentina. The Jaguares are currently top of their conference in Super Rugby with 8 wins from 13 games including some good wins away in SA, NZ and Aus. They are 2nd in the overall standings with a real chance of hosting a quarter final in Argentina for the first time ever. Their form is definitely peaking given that most of their five losses came at the start of the season and they have won 6 of their last 7 games, a narrow loss away to the highlanders being their one recent loss.

Given that New Zealand have a recent habit of not winning the Rugby Championship held in a world cup year (Australia won the last two) is it Argentina's chance to shine being the form super rugby side? The form guide would probably suggest that this years championship is more than likely going to be one of the more hotly contested championships in recent memory so why not Argentina? I suspect their super rugby form will give them renewed belief that they can challenge the other SANZAAR sides and away wins might help them achieve some consistency on the road.

You also know you are good when people like Phil Kearns start to complain about the Jaguares basically being an international side. Kearns also fears that this gives them a huge advantage at the RWC, does it? Probably.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/113139439/jaguares-coach-gonzalo-quesada-hits-back-at-phil-kearns-comments-on-super-rugby-inclusion

SA who claimed a good away win in NZ and who are probably moving in the right direction despite a desperate win loss ratio for 2018 will probably be contenders too albeit more than likely without captain Kolisi who has picked up a fairly serious injury. New Zealand of course are almost always favorites have picked up a few losses in recent years and have some selection quandaries. Who to pick in the back row, is Aaron Smith still their number one guy at 9 and who is Barrett's back up? This particular debate may have gained another dimension as the talented but still relatively inexperienced Mo'unga is subject to some controversy following a recent tour to SA. As usual Australia appear to be a sinking ship which probably means they will be contenders for everything.

Anyway long story short, I knows its still a couple of months out but I would like to call on our resident Kiwis to provide their expert opinions and anyone else why enjoys the rugby championship to chime in and declare who do you think will come 1st to last in this years championship and why? Will it be Los Pumas time to shine?

Go raibh mile maith agaibh.
Is mise le meas,
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Post by Taylorman on Thu Jul 18 2019, 02:42

mikey_dragon wrote:8 Crusaders to miss the trip to Argentina.

Missing are Crotty and Barrett (injured), Sam W, the front row of Owen Franks, Taylor, Moody...Read, Mo'unga, Goodhue. Todds not going either. So its really 10.

Coles is more than reasonable for Taylor and Savea will probably start at 8, if only to see how he and Cane go for a full 80.

So its really the starting props/ front row that will feel it most and luckily the Jags werent strong there, but will be boosted by the returning Herrera and Figallo.

The Saders only have Goodhue as a starter in the backs so ABs are ok there. Its just really about the tight five, and how they start the season, which is usually very slowly. We usually have our first test of the season at home so maybe an away match might put a bit of spring into them.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Thu Jul 18 2019, 11:45

NZ team for Argentina has been named:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/114331744/rugby-championship-who-are-the-five-uncapped-all-blacks-picked-for-argentina

As expected quite a few residency qualified islanders in the match day squad (4)

Sevu Reece
Ofa Tu'ungafasi
Vaea Fifita
Nepo Eti Laulala

All Blacks team to play Argentina:

Ben Smith, Sevu Reece, Anton Lienert-Brown, Ngani Laumape, Jordie Barrett, Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith; Ardie Savea, Sam Cane (c), Vaea Fifita, Patrick Tuipulotu, Brodie Retallick, Angus Ta'avao, Dane Coles, Ofa Tu'ungafasi. Reserves: Liam Coltman, Atu Moli, Nepo Laulala, Jackson Hemopo, Luke Jacobson, Brad Weber, Josh Ioane, Braydon Ennor.

Good team despite some key players missing. Still Argentina should be good enough to give them a good rattle.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu Jul 18 2019, 20:16

Yes I’d expect the Vunipolas and Manu to turn out for England as usual as well, an equally lame point.
Ireland will need to step up their intake of PIs or theyll get left back in the pack as well.

This is a very inexperienced side, something Hansens done over the years, a la Chicago etc to see how players might measure up.

All Blacks team to play Argentina: Ben Smith, Sevu Reece, Anton Lienert-Brown, Ngani Laumape, Jordie Barrett, Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith; Ardie Savea, Sam Cane (c), Vaea Fifita, Patrick Tuipulotu, Brodie Retallick, Angus Ta'avao, Dane Coles, Ofa Tu'ungafasi. Reserves: Liam Coltman, Atu Moli, Nepo Laulala, Jackson Hemopo, Luke Jacobson, Brad Weber, Josh Ioane, Braydon Ennor.

Reece, laumape, jordie, savea at 8, fifita, tuipulotu, the front row, four new caps in the bench.

Very raw, and if Argies up for this coukd be a boilover.

Very impressed with Jacobson, hemopo, Ioane and Ennor so Hansen clearly banking on raw but enthusiastic bench to come on and up the ante.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Jul 19 2019, 13:00

Ah Taylorman, Chicago wasn't an inexperienced side at all. It was a full strength side and bench aside from the injuries to the second rows. Hansen is leaving out 8 players for this test and capping a handful of new guys, big difference. NZ's only new cap in that game was Scott Barrett who came on in the 2nd half for Kaino who got injured.

Yeah Ennor looks good. Interested to see how Cane does as captain.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri Jul 19 2019, 13:36

Yeah kaino at lock was definitely a see how it goes and moala certainly wasnt ever first pick. Plus... Chicago...yeah...nah.
last years win was better, though they really need to win one here to get true parity. AI wins are the easiest way to get them.
Argie could win this by a point or two, or get hammered. The step up from a one club scenario to test rugby is something I think theyre underestimating. Jags are not the pumas, saders arent the ABs and S rugby sure aint test rugby.
I see McCaws backing oz for some reason. Cant see why, the latest selection not inspiring. Interested if Nic Whites journey north has improved his test rugby, or, will he be flat as all returning players are.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Jul 19 2019, 13:48

Romano, Whitelock and Retallick were all missing through injury or family issues. They didn't have anyone else so had to try Kaino at lock. Ireland had a similar number of injuries.

Moala was picked because there was no regular 13 at that point. Jack Goodhue had not broken through yet. Fekitoa had played the rugby championship at 13 prior to that but not since, Moala played at 13 during the subsequent Wales summer tour. The ABs were at a transition phase at 13.

It was definitely a full strength NZ side by any standards in terms of selecting the best players available at least.

Yes I agree though, Ireland need to win in NZ and get to a RWC semi and beyond.

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Post by Taylorman on Fri Jul 19 2019, 17:16

Yep agree there, a good chance for Ireland to push into the ‘historical’ top rung this year by making the final, until now reserved for five teams, winners four. A Japan...neutral....venue, makes it the more interesting, as theres no expectations on the faves to win at home. This weekend will paint a reasonable picture of how the SH sides will look, particularly SA, oz and Argie who look to be playing their best sides. NZ are pacing, moving into the test arena and away from Super rugby slowly.
Im also expecting a backlash from NZ Maori, whos pride will have taken a knock last week, first loss to fiji since the 50’s. We’ll know quite a bit in 48 hours.
Oz look the most interesting, havent seen a weaker side on paper in years.

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Post by Pie on Fri Jul 19 2019, 17:40

Taylorman wrote:Yes I’d expect the Vunipolas and Manu to turn out for England as usual as well, an equally lame point.
Ireland will need to step up their intake of PIs or theyll get left back in the pack as well.

This is a very inexperienced side, something Hansens done over the years, a la Chicago etc to see how players might measure up.

All Blacks team to play Argentina: Ben Smith, Sevu Reece, Anton Lienert-Brown, Ngani Laumape, Jordie Barrett, Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith; Ardie Savea, Sam Cane (c), Vaea Fifita, Patrick Tuipulotu, Brodie Retallick, Angus Ta'avao, Dane Coles, Ofa Tu'ungafasi. Reserves: Liam Coltman, Atu Moli, Nepo Laulala, Jackson Hemopo, Luke Jacobson, Brad Weber, Josh Ioane, Braydon Ennor.

Reece, laumape, jordie, savea at 8, fifita, tuipulotu, the front row, four new caps in the bench.

Very raw, and if Argies up for this coukd be a boilover.

Very impressed with Jacobson, hemopo, Ioane and Ennor so Hansen clearly banking on raw but enthusiastic bench to come on and up the ante.

Absolute BS its an inexperienced side

Oh well when they lose to Argie they'll probably ask to 'share' the result thumbsup

Hopefully by more than 15 so Wales go top of rankings Laugh

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Post by Taylorman on Fri Jul 19 2019, 21:52

Hope is good.
Five new caps is experienced? Gotcha.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Fri Jul 19 2019, 23:34

There is talk that Scott Barrett will join his brother in Auckland in 2020

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Post by ebop on Sat Jul 20 2019, 07:47

Hope Sevu has a great game and makes the most of this opportunity. He has the Midas touch when it comes to making the impossible happen.
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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 19:53

Geez, easy try for Brodie to run in from the wing. Gotta question the Jaguares players fitness in the last twenty. Think they might struggle vs the best of the other four NZ franchises which is really what this match is, plus three new saders players. 20-9 half time.
Argie fitness second half will be very interesting.
Of the ABs, Laumapes hard running nets him a try, cane and savea operating well, Fifita a few good runs, Ben Smith steady as ever at the back and sevu reece tidy so far, stopped one try being scored off the maul.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:03

Fozzies right, a little lacking in organisation, some aimless stuff but Argie not applying a lot of pressure...as Barrett spills a good kick out.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:12

Good kick under penalty advantage sanchez, great take boffelli. Games on again.
Not a fan of jordie. Argie starting to apply pressure now. Big next 10-15 mins coming up. Sanchez misses....

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:21

Jacobson to debut! Jackson Hemopo on as well. Big fan of his carrying this year.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:25

Argie need to make their move now to take this match while ABs pour on the inexperience off the bench. AB newbies need to step up big time.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:32

15 to go, can argie win their first. Best chance for a very long time.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:35

Gosh, very much a B AB side on now. Biiig chance argie. Feel sanchez needs to make the diff.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:50

Now or never argie, time up, lineout on AB goal line, crowd wanting blood!!

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:52

Massive defensive lineout ABs. Tuipulotu said midweek big responsibility being given the defensive lineout duties, exactly what came through there as ABs pushed the Argies back after they won the limeout.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 20:53

Good first up test for both, these jaguares boys need a break!

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 21:16

Hansens right, owens, sam w and read, over 300 tests experience not there today and back next week.

Pumas had basically the same side all year versus an AB side at the whistle with these names having to hold out the Pumas on our line going for their first ever win.

Hemopo, ofa, coltman, weber, ennor, jacobson, moli, reece, tuipulotu...as Hansen said, like winning the lottery to get that experience for so many in such an environment and crowd wanting a win.

Sanchez makes a huge difference and will be one of the players of the world cup. Super talented.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 21:40

Savea man of the match, huge effort. Hansens gotta work this one out as Savea looks better than the 2019 Read, and cant be kept on the bench with that work rate over 80. Hes now our best loosie. Gotta be Read, Cane and Savea, with perhaps Squire when he decides hes ready.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat Jul 20 2019, 22:22

I don’t think he ABs looked like losing, but also came a lot closer than I thought they would to losing

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 23:00

Well they could have last seconds, Argie are well versed in the rolling mauls off the lineout to the line, something they seem to lack as much focus on these days with the move to a wider game. Great to see the newbies repel them so quickly and see it out.

This is about how most here will have seen this going with that many newbies, and the first match of the season, four franchises trying to work together first up, away.

What surprised me most was Argies ability to stay the 80 after such a long season together, explained partially by their eagerness to get a win, and the ABs lack of getting any combinations working, and therefore continuity and momentum going.

Many dropped balls, it became a scrappy stop start match, typical first up AB effort.

Next week the Franks and co’s return so a bit more familiarity will return to the AB game.

The other surprise was how Argie didnt seem to get a lot of advantage ‘because’ they had been together all year, they must know eachother very well. Especially with Sanchez kicking so well, carving yards for territory as well as placing deft positionals, one for the try.

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat Jul 20 2019, 23:19

I thought the ABs would build on their half time score, I was very surprised to see them effectively lose the second half 7-0 to the pumas. Taking into account this isn’t a full AB first xv and there are a few new players.

A similar standard Welsh team beat Argentina more convincingly in the two tests last year.

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Jul 20 2019, 23:32

Yes so was I, as the norm would have been to run away second half. Get the same match with the full side in a month and that would have happened, as thats was usually happens with the normal season, june series, then oz first.

Arg will get much better from this and more time together as Sanchez and the NH guys are incorporated more. Already the jags scrum improved immensely with the tightheads returning.

Matera is pure inspiration in the McCaw mould. Havent seen a better 6 this year.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun Jul 21 2019, 08:17

Argentina wont get a better chance for a win v NZ in a while. Didnt quite get the tactics/mind set right. A bit too conservative, need to show NZ less respect and go attack for the win otherwise they will come up short every time. Matera has been imense this year.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun Jul 21 2019, 08:37

maestegmafia wrote:I don’t think he ABs looked like losing, but also came a lot closer than I thought they would to losing

True but I though they (ABs) would lose this one before the game. Argentina have great players right now, they will probably click at some point.

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Jul 21 2019, 09:07

Collapse2005 wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:I don’t think he ABs looked like losing, but also came a lot closer than I thought they would to losing

True but I though they (ABs) would lose this one before the game. Argentina have great players right now, they will probably click at some point.

Yes they will, someone is going to pay dearly, and soon. Argie are getting great feedback on their rugby from the Crusaders, and now ABs and theyre nearly there. As I think Matera said post match, theyll get better. They sure will. Loved the passion in the crowd just before that last lineout. They were sure going off!

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sun Jul 21 2019, 09:17

Thought SA looked very good albeit its also hard to tell if Australia made them look good. Michael Hooper seems to have inherited some of Cheika's whinginess. The yellow was fully deserved in my view so why whinge to the ref?

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Post by Taylorman on Sun Jul 21 2019, 18:59

Yeah and it cost them too, those sorts of things are knife edge make or breaks fir the Wallabies these days. One thing goes wrong and its everything it seems. But certainly 14 only combined with an already brittle defence and things are going to happen, boks got tries through simple running and passing until the gaps came.

And it was the bok seconds, theyve split the sides to play Oz then NZ next week. They won this match at Wellington last year so ABs will be looking to get the best pack on. Be interesting if Laumape keeps the 12 spot, he ran straight all day and I think we need that vs the Boks.

I think our first side would struggle if the match was in SA, so we have a chance here, the Saders century players need to stand the pack up as their replacements in Argie were poor.

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Post by maestegmafia on Mon Jul 22 2019, 07:40

Taylorman wrote:Yeah and it cost them too, those sorts of things are knife edge make or breaks fir the Wallabies these days. One thing goes wrong and its everything it seems. But certainly 14 only combined with an already brittle defence and things are going to happen, boks got tries through simple running and passing until the gaps came.

And it was the bok seconds, theyve split the sides to play Oz then NZ next week. They won this match at Wellington last year so ABs will be looking to get the best pack on. Be interesting if Laumape keeps the 12 spot, he ran straight all day and I think we need that vs the Boks.

I think our first side would struggle if the match was in SA, so we have a chance here, the Saders century players need to stand the pack up as their replacements in Argie were poor.

I am sure first match rustiness played a big part for all involved really looking forward to the next round

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Post by bsando on Mon Jul 22 2019, 10:23

I was interested to see how the Wallabies would front up in SA and it seems like they're still forcing the game too much and switching off in defence at crucial moments. Haylett Petty despite his score had a poor game. Some poor decision making at times.

There was enough positives in the game to not suggest panic stations just yet but I just feel like every time Aus got the ball you'd be waiting for an error to occur 5th or 6th phase. They lack patience. They don't have to play the game at 100mph every phase of attack.

The centre combo was really good though, I liked that a lot. I don't know if Beale is the answer on a wing or at 15 but I think JOC could be a great addition to the side now. He has been playing in the EP for a few years and could really add an element of calm to the attack that may well increase ball retention.

9.White
10.Foley
11.Hodge
12.Kerevi
13.Kuridrani
14.JOC
15.Beale

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Post by Taylorman on Mon Jul 22 2019, 23:14

Gotta admit you're more optimistic than most. Agree JOC should come in, but thats no assurance he'll improve them, and thats about as good a backline they can have, with perhaps Toomua or CLL as inside back options.

Defensively Beale is poor at FB (and anywhere else) so would be targeted. Theres also no height across the backline so the Folau factor has all but vanished. Tis a tired backline bar White and hopefully JOC.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue Jul 23 2019, 04:33

The Fijian centres for Aus are pretty good actually.

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue Jul 23 2019, 11:01

Taylorman wrote:Gotta admit you're more optimistic than most. Agree JOC should come in, but thats no assurance he'll improve them, and thats about as good a backline they can have, with perhaps Toomua or CLL as inside back options.

Defensively Beale is poor at FB (and anywhere else) so would be targeted. Theres also no height across the backline so the Folau factor has all but vanished. Tis a tired backline bar White and hopefully JOC.

I agree on Beale, sublime in attack but a very poor defender.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jul 23 2019, 11:04

Amazing offload from him. Probably only player with offloads like that.

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Post by maestegmafia on Tue Jul 23 2019, 11:38

Collapse2005 wrote:Amazing offload from him. Probably only player with offloads like that.
one of very few I agree.

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Post by Taylorman on Tue Jul 23 2019, 20:21

Yes oz tried offloading everything, many didn’t come off, one being the disallowed forward pass try and a few drops. Think they’d be better off focussing more on retention and defence. They’re not even scrambling we’ll these days, something they used to do well.

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Post by Taylorman on Thu Aug 08 2019, 04:54

ABs team to start vs the Wallabies looks to be the best side we have with the only experimental part looking to be Savea and Cane on the flanks, and a couple on the bench.

Based on that selection I think they've gone for the doctor and we should be able to know more about where we are at in terms of the world cup.

If we lose in Perth there will be some VERY concerned kiwi's.If we lose at Eden park the one after I think we can say goodbye to 2019.

If the passes stick...watch out Wallabies...

Beauden Barrett, Ben Smith, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Richie Mo’unga, Aaron Smith, Ardie Savea, Sam Cane, Kieran Read (c), Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Joe Moody.

Bench: Codie Taylor, Atu Moli, Angus Ta’avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Matt Todd, TJ Perenara, Ngani Laumape, George Bridge


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Post by maestegmafia on Thu Aug 08 2019, 06:39

That should be a very exciting team to watch

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Post by bluestonevedder on Thu Aug 08 2019, 10:44

Taylorman wrote:ABs team to start vs the Wallabies looks to be the best side we have with the only experimental part looking to be Savea and Cane on the flanks, and a couple on the bench.

Based on that selection I think they've gone for the doctor and we should be able to know more about where we are at in terms of the world cup.

If we lose in Perth there will be some VERY concerned kiwi's.If we lose at Eden park the one after I think we can say goodbye to 2019.

If the passes stick...watch out Wallabies...

Beauden Barrett, Ben Smith, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Richie Mo’unga, Aaron Smith, Ardie Savea, Sam Cane, Kieran Read (c), Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Joe Moody.

Bench: Codie Taylor, Atu Moli, Angus Ta’avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Matt Todd, TJ Perenara, Ngani Laumape, George Bridge


That's a cracking team. Could be some beautiful rugby on display.

Reckon Beauden is best suited to FB Taylor?

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Post by Taylorman on Sat Aug 10 2019, 09:53

bluestonevedder wrote:
Taylorman wrote:ABs team to start vs the Wallabies looks to be the best side we have with the only experimental part looking to be Savea and Cane on the flanks, and a couple on the bench.

Based on that selection I think they've gone for the doctor and we should be able to know more about where we are at in terms of the world cup.

If we lose in Perth there will be some VERY concerned kiwi's.If we lose at Eden park the one after I think we can say goodbye to 2019.

If the passes stick...watch out Wallabies...

Beauden Barrett, Ben Smith, Jack Goodhue, Anton Lienert-Brown, Rieko Ioane, Richie Mo’unga, Aaron Smith, Ardie Savea, Sam Cane, Kieran Read (c), Sam Whitelock, Scott Barrett, Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Joe Moody.

Bench: Codie Taylor, Atu Moli, Angus Ta’avao, Patrick Tuipulotu, Matt Todd, TJ Perenara, Ngani Laumape, George Bridge


That's a cracking team. Could be some beautiful rugby on display.

Reckon Beauden is best suited to FB Taylor?

Yes I think Hansen was heading that way with Damian McKenzie at 10 and mo'unga fills that gap now.

Inside backs and loosies carrying will be key. Barrett will chime in where he can.

Selection based on high mobility. Weather looks good too. Black ferns have just trounced Oz, hopefully for us...our passes stick. That will make all the difference. thumbsup

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Post by carpet baboon on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:28

The Ozzie's are playing some good rugby

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Post by RDW on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:38

Probably a red by the letter of the law but looked on the lower end of the scale to me.

The AB lock crisis deepens!

If there's ever a good time to get a red it's before halftime - means they can regroup off the pitch.


Last edited by RDW on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:40; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:40

I always said NZs poor dicipline would catch up with them.

Got to love the French refs, the only ones with the balls to ref the Kiwis the same as everyone else.


Last edited by Collapse2005 on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:42; edited 1 time in total

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Post by ebop on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:42

Garces strikes again
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Post by Collapse2005 on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:43

ebop wrote:Garces strikes again

Im sure some NZ fans will remain in denial over NZs dicipline issues.

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Post by ebop on Sat Aug 10 2019, 11:45

Probably the softest red card you’ll ever see
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