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Post by McLaren on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

It amazes me that a professional footballer can end up one footed. Just practice with your weak foot every day.

I remember spending a summer playing with only my left foot in the garden. Came back next season two footed.
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Post by McLaren on Tue 09 Jul 2019, 9:48 am

I think super once mentioned that he supported PSG.
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Post by JAS on Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:11 am

McLaren wrote:I think super once mentioned that he supported PSG.

You’re such a wum MAC, Supes is definitely an Arab

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Post by JAS on Tue 09 Jul 2019, 1:42 pm

Wish I had a £ for every comment I’ve seen today along the lines of “I’ve always voted Labour until now but that’s it, never again”
What a load of utter unreconstructed mince!!
Most people saying that have never voted Labour in their Nelly Puff, certainly not in the past 40 years. Of the ones that have, most of them have been saying that since Corbyn became leader. The crazy irony is that those same people are the very ones who get irate when politicians lie through their teeth.

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Post by McLaren on Tue 09 Jul 2019, 2:14 pm

Labours problem is that they have gone down the populist rather than intellectual route. The dumb ass working class voted brexit despite what is good for them, and Labour should have strongly opposed any form of brexit to protect the uneducated class.

Sometimes protecting the proletariat means ignoring what they think they need. Labour needs to attract the university educated voters by offering a modern set of socially liberal policies, this classes voting intentions will in turn protect the unwashed.
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Post by JAS on Tue 09 Jul 2019, 2:33 pm

McLaren wrote:Labours problem is that they have gone down the populist rather than intellectual route.  The dumb ass working class voted brexit despite what is good for them, and Labour should have strongly opposed any form of brexit to protect the uneducated class.

Sometimes protecting the proletariat means ignoring what they think they need. Labour needs to attract the university educated voters by offering a modern set of socially liberal policies, this classes voting intentions will in turn protect the unwashed.

To put it very simply Mac, they need to win more votes than anybody else!!

What they ought not to do is sit on the fence and overanalyse which section of the electorate they should be chasing, and what principles they need to compromise to do so.

Meanwhile over the pond some racist, misogynist lunatic, is lying through his teeth telling people what they want to hear...and it’s working!!!

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Post by kwinigolfer on Tue 09 Jul 2019, 10:56 pm

Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

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Post by pedro on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 12:04 am

McLaren wrote:Labours problem is that they have gone down the populist rather than intellectual route.  The dumb ass working class voted brexit despite what is good for them, and Labour should have strongly opposed any form of brexit to protect the uneducated class.

Sometimes protecting the proletariat means ignoring what they think they need. Labour needs to attract the university educated voters by offering a modern set of socially liberal policies, this classes voting intentions will in turn protect the unwashed.
This means you’ll sacrifice the proletariat to the Tories??

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Post by super_realist on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 7:52 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 7:58 am

beninho wrote:So, realist, I gather you don't really care for football and don't follow a team. Thats fine. I follow a team who have been terrible and not so terrible, I haven't stopped following or supporting them. A lot of fans build an allegiance over time that is more then jusy are they good or are they bad.

Your not a football fan so I dont expect you to understand. But thanks for your moan, it added a lot.

Let's say for example you are a fan of a particular television programme, if over the course of many series your interest starts to wane who cares? It doesn't mean you weren't a "proper fan" in the beginning does it?

Why should I lend timeless and unquestioned allegiance to a team just because it's football? (queue the laughable claims that "you were never a TRUE fan"

It's not about glory hunting, because my old team were terrible anyway, but there's nothing wrong with losing interest in a team, game, sport over time. Most people have better things to do with their lives than to live vicariously through a football club (unless you're a Celtic or Rangers fan). They grow up and realise that it's just a game and doesn't actually matter to anything. They would rather be doing something where they are actually participating rather than simply watching a game of bloody football.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 8:01 am

McLaren wrote:Labours problem is that they have gone down the populist rather than intellectual route.  The dumb ass working class voted brexit despite what is good for them, and Labour should have strongly opposed any form of brexit to protect the uneducated class.

Sometimes protecting the proletariat means ignoring what they think they need. Labour needs to attract the university educated voters by offering a modern set of socially liberal policies, this classes voting intentions will in turn protect the unwashed.

I've never been trusting of polls really, but Corbyn is so bad that they are now the 4th most popular party in the UK if we are to believe them.
Corbyn simply isn't trusted and they aren't even close to even challenging the worst Tory government since the end of WW2.

Instead of Labour worrying about who is leading the Tory party, why don't they boot Corbyn out?

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Post by super_realist on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 8:03 am

JAS wrote:
westisbest wrote:Think he followed Aberdeen from seeing a post a while ago.


Close West, but it was Dundee Utd I believe hence the overflowing anti old firm angst/chip on the shoulder, which to be fair is pretty much the same at Aberdeen and elsewhere.

What I've said about the Old Firm isn't untrue. They are terrible and they are partly to blame for the chronic standard of football in the SPL.

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Post by McLaren on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 9:49 am

pedro wrote:
McLaren wrote:Labours problem is that they have gone down the populist rather than intellectual route.  The dumb ass working class voted brexit despite what is good for them, and Labour should have strongly opposed any form of brexit to protect the uneducated class.

Sometimes protecting the proletariat means ignoring what they think they need. Labour needs to attract the university educated voters by offering a modern set of socially liberal policies, this classes voting intentions will in turn protect the unwashed.
This means you’ll sacrifice the proletariat to the Tories??

Maybe I wasn't clear but my point was meant to be the opposite, that to protect the proletariat Labour needs to appeal to all liberal voters. Losing voters by supporting brexit for example will only harm the dumb ass working class that voted brexit more. The working class support of brexit only exemplies why they need a more knowledgeable group of voters to protect them. Like red necks voting republican in the US.
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Post by McLaren on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 9:50 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
westisbest wrote:Think he followed Aberdeen from seeing a post a while ago.


Close West, but it was Dundee Utd I believe hence the overflowing anti old firm angst/chip on the shoulder, which to be fair is pretty much the same at Aberdeen and elsewhere.

What I've said about the Old Firm isn't untrue. They are terrible and they are partly to blame for the chronic standard of football in the SPL.

So who did you support?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 9:50 am

McLaren wrote:Labours problem is that they have gone down the populist rather than intellectual route.  The dumb ass working class voted brexit despite what is good for them, and Labour should have strongly opposed any form of brexit to protect the uneducated class.

Sometimes protecting the proletariat means ignoring what they think they need. Labour needs to attract the university educated voters by offering a modern set of socially liberal policies, this classes voting intentions will in turn protect the unwashed.
Laugh Amazing...
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Post by JAS on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 11:39 am

super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.


Last edited by JAS on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Typo)

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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 12:04 pm

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.


That's kinda what I had in mind, JAS. Thanks. Hopefully all four clubs will take it seriously and progress at least a few qualie rounds.

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Post by dynamark on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 3:15 pm

Mixing football and politics is confusing me.
I happen to think Corbyns ship has probably sailed after this latest shift of policy.Theres just not enough tree hugging Glastonbury style student supporters to make a difference overall.
Not to say that the tories haven't got problems also but they need to get Brexit done take the brexit party out of the equation and then work towards the next election.
Scottish football not qualified to comment in truth but difficult for the smaller clubs.
Mac seems to think he knows whats good for us(ie.remain).I have said many times I don't need EU to run my life we will be fine and still a European country.

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Post by westisbest on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 3:28 pm

super_realist wrote:
beninho wrote:So, realist, I gather you don't really care for football and don't follow a team. Thats fine. I follow a team who have been terrible and not so terrible, I haven't stopped following or supporting them. A lot of fans build an allegiance over time that is more then jusy are they good or are they bad.

Your not a football fan so I dont expect you to understand. But thanks for your moan, it added a lot.

Let's say for example you are a fan of a particular television programme, if over the course of many series your interest starts to wane who cares? It doesn't mean you weren't a "proper fan" in the beginning does it?

Why should I lend timeless and unquestioned  allegiance to a team just because it's football? (queue the laughable claims that "you were never a TRUE fan"

It's not about glory hunting, because my old team were terrible anyway, but there's nothing wrong with losing interest in a team, game, sport over time. Most people have better things to do with their lives than to live vicariously through a football club (unless you're a Celtic or Rangers fan). They grow up and realise that it's just a game and doesn't actually matter to anything.  They would rather be doing something where they are actually participating rather than simply watching a game of bloody football.

Bit of a difference following a television show and a football team.
Following football you travel round the country and further a field.
Put more time and effort into it.

Also I would say there are more people who follow football than don’t, so wouldn’t say most people have no interest.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 3:33 pm

Got to agree I think the fanaticism football fans display with respect to their chosen team defies logic at the best of times. Part of human nature to form attachments, value loyalty or gravitate towards communities may be to blame but logic is very often lacking.

Similar sort of tribalism to blame for Britain leaving the EU perhaps at least amongst the electorate.

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Post by McLaren on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 3:48 pm

No shock that many of those from the sort of backgrounds where football tribalism is common voted for brexit and the brexit party.
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Post by JAS on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 3:50 pm

dynamark wrote:Mixing football and politics is confusing me.
I happen to think Corbyns ship has probably sailed after this latest shift of policy.Theres just not enough tree hugging Glastonbury style student  supporters to make a difference overall.
Not to say that the tories haven't got problems also but they need to get Brexit done take the brexit party out of the equation and then work towards the next election.
Scottish football not qualified to comment in truth but difficult for the smaller clubs.
Mac seems to think he knows whats good for us(ie.remain).I have said many times I don't need EU to run my life we will be fine and still a European country.

Sadly I think you’re right Dyna re Corbyns ship. I think his position is far too nuanced and thoughtful and trying too hard, admirable but politically naive. Cretins like Trump and soon to be Johnson just bluster their way through appealing in a binary way with complete and utter Love sacks but sufficient thick (Macs influence) people buy it.

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Post by JAS on Wed 10 Jul 2019, 4:38 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.


That's kinda what I had in mind, JAS. Thanks. Hopefully all four clubs will take it seriously and progress at least a few qualie rounds.

Yep just had a bit of time to check and doing a comparison between Scottish clubs European performances (6 years) either side of Rangers demise in 2012 totally backs up my point. 2006 - 2012 CL 3x round of 16 and 4 group stages (yes in 08 Celtic got to last 16, Rangers were in group stages, finished 3rd dropped into uefa and went all way to final). UC/EL harder to quantify as format changed around 2009 but basically 2 group stages, 2x last 16s and a runner up. Whereas, 2012 -2018 whilst Rangers were horsing their way back up past the likes of Cowdenbeath, East Fife, Forfar etc domesticallyScottish European achievements were CL - Round of 16 by Celtic in 2013 and 3 further group stages. In EL all there is to speak about is a group stage in 2016 and a Round of 32 by Celtic in 2017/18 after falling from the CL. Everything else was qualifier embarrassment until last year when both the old firm made the group stages and Celtic got to round of 32.

So all in all, pretty damning proof of the extent to which Scottish football shot itself in the foot in 2012. Not saying summer football won’t help but not having it is NOT the reason the coefficient reached such a low ebb.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 8:09 am

JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.

Wrong, UEFA currently rank the SPL as 20th. (https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2019)
It wasn't just the banana skin in Luxembourg though was it? There was Artmedia Bratislava, Maribor, Malmo and  Legia Warsaw who all inflicted early exits on both Rangers and Celtic. You can go back a little earlier and find some other ones like Basle too. Using Rangers (rightfully) being relegated is just an excuse, the writing was on the wall long before this. The quality of players had been going down for years once TV money started to dry up following the collapse of ON Digital.

You need to face facts. Both Celtic and Rangers are considerably WORSE than 10 years ago, that's not even in dispute, hence the downward spiral. It's a demonstrable fact. There is perhaps 1 or 2 players who MIGHT make it in the Premier League (Tierney for example, maybe Edouard), but even just yesterday, an ex Aberdeen player who is now playing in League 1 said that it was of a comparable standard to the SPL. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a quality league is it?

The SPL and SFA are like the R&A, run by stuffy old farts who will not break with tradition. Scotland will not get any better in the current environment. In my opinion summer football and adopting a more Scandinavian business model would work better. For example Viking Stavanger have a great set up, a fantastic, but moderately sized new stadium (more than sufficient for Scottish clubs), served by a brilliant train and transport system, surrounded and connected to lots of office buildings who make use of the facilities and with lots of nice housing around, built on ground that was doing nothing. A complete regeneration.
Compare that to the grounds of Scottish football, built in the worst parts of each city, poor transport links, no other facilities, ancient, jalopy stadiums for most of the clubs (Hearts, Killie, Celtic and Rangers being the exception) and subject to extremes of weather because they play at the worst times of year.
A massive change from the dumps of Scottish football stadiums. If I was a player of the standard of the SPL, I'd much rather be playing in a stadium like Viking on a late May evening, than freezing my arse off in Hamilton or Inverness on a January Tuesday night. Who wouldn't, not only that but it's better than Scotland in every way imaginable.

By the way, how did the SPL shoot itself in the foot by punishing The Huns? Did you expect them to let them off with cheating? It's probably the most honest and admirable thing they have ever done.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 8:19 am

McLaren wrote:No shock that many of those from the sort of backgrounds where football tribalism is common voted for brexit and the brexit party.

Where on earth have you got that from Mac? I've heard you say some truly stupid things in my life, but that is one of the most stupid things you have ever written.

Much as I dislike football fans, only an idiot would claim that fans who are "tribal" are from the same Brexit voting background.  For example, are the Scottish fans (and their tribalism who generally voted Remain) any different from those fans in England (and who are tribal) who voted to leave?



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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 9:59 am

super_realist wrote:
McLaren wrote:No shock that many of those from the sort of backgrounds where football tribalism is common voted for brexit and the brexit party.

Where on earth have you got that from Mac? I've heard you say some truly stupid things in my life, but that is one of the most stupid things you have ever written.

Much as I dislike football fans, only an idiot would claim that fans who are "tribal" are from the same Brexit voting background.  For example, are the Scottish fans (and their tribalism who generally voted Remain) any different from those fans in England (and who are tribal) who voted to leave?


That's pretty typical though, isn't it? Happy to chuck around the sort of phraseology for Brexiteers and football fans that he wouldn't countenance, with his SJW hat on, being used against his chosen beneficiaries. The level of hypocrisy is astonishing.
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Post by McLaren on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 10:02 am

The emancipation of Football fans and brexiteers, the great civil righthts battle of our generation.

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Post by superflyweight on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 12:18 pm

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.

Wrong, UEFA currently rank the SPL as 20th. (https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2019)
It wasn't just the banana skin in Luxembourg though was it? There was Artmedia Bratislava, Maribor, Malmo and  Legia Warsaw who all inflicted early exits on both Rangers and Celtic. You can go back a little earlier and find some other ones like Basle too. Using Rangers (rightfully) being relegated is just an excuse, the writing was on the wall long before this. The quality of players had been going down for years once TV money started to dry up following the collapse of ON Digital.

You need to face facts. Both Celtic and Rangers are considerably WORSE than 10 years ago, that's not even in dispute, hence the downward spiral. It's a demonstrable fact. There is perhaps 1 or 2 players who MIGHT make it in the Premier League (Tierney for example, maybe Edouard), but even just yesterday, an ex Aberdeen player who is now playing in League 1 said that it was of a comparable standard to the SPL. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a quality league is it?

The SPL and SFA are like the R&A, run by stuffy old farts who will not break with tradition. Scotland will not get any better in the current environment. In my opinion summer football and adopting a more Scandinavian business model would work better. For example Viking Stavanger have a great set up, a fantastic, but moderately sized new stadium (more than sufficient for Scottish clubs), served by a brilliant train and transport system, surrounded and connected to lots of office buildings who make use of the facilities and with lots of nice housing around, built on ground that was doing nothing. A complete regeneration.
Compare that to the grounds of Scottish football, built in the worst parts of each city, poor transport links, no other facilities, ancient, jalopy stadiums for most of the clubs (Hearts, Killie, Celtic and Rangers being the exception) and subject to extremes of weather because they play at the worst times of year.
A massive change from the dumps of Scottish football stadiums. If I was a player of the standard of the SPL, I'd much rather be playing in a stadium like Viking on a late May evening, than freezing my arse off in Hamilton or Inverness on a January Tuesday night. Who wouldn't, not only that but it's better than Scotland in every way imaginable.

By the way, how did the SPL shoot itself in the foot by punishing The Huns? Did you expect them to let them off with cheating? It's probably the most honest and admirable thing they have ever done.

That's nonsense in relation to Celtic.  Mowbray was in charge of Celtic for most of the 2009/2010 season and we were crap.  I'd run through the team but it would make me cry.

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 12:38 pm

superflyweight wrote:
super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.

Wrong, UEFA currently rank the SPL as 20th. (https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2019)
It wasn't just the banana skin in Luxembourg though was it? There was Artmedia Bratislava, Maribor, Malmo and  Legia Warsaw who all inflicted early exits on both Rangers and Celtic. You can go back a little earlier and find some other ones like Basle too. Using Rangers (rightfully) being relegated is just an excuse, the writing was on the wall long before this. The quality of players had been going down for years once TV money started to dry up following the collapse of ON Digital.

You need to face facts. Both Celtic and Rangers are considerably WORSE than 10 years ago, that's not even in dispute, hence the downward spiral. It's a demonstrable fact. There is perhaps 1 or 2 players who MIGHT make it in the Premier League (Tierney for example, maybe Edouard), but even just yesterday, an ex Aberdeen player who is now playing in League 1 said that it was of a comparable standard to the SPL. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a quality league is it?

The SPL and SFA are like the R&A, run by stuffy old farts who will not break with tradition. Scotland will not get any better in the current environment. In my opinion summer football and adopting a more Scandinavian business model would work better. For example Viking Stavanger have a great set up, a fantastic, but moderately sized new stadium (more than sufficient for Scottish clubs), served by a brilliant train and transport system, surrounded and connected to lots of office buildings who make use of the facilities and with lots of nice housing around, built on ground that was doing nothing. A complete regeneration.
Compare that to the grounds of Scottish football, built in the worst parts of each city, poor transport links, no other facilities, ancient, jalopy stadiums for most of the clubs (Hearts, Killie, Celtic and Rangers being the exception) and subject to extremes of weather because they play at the worst times of year.
A massive change from the dumps of Scottish football stadiums. If I was a player of the standard of the SPL, I'd much rather be playing in a stadium like Viking on a late May evening, than freezing my arse off in Hamilton or Inverness on a January Tuesday night. Who wouldn't, not only that but it's better than Scotland in every way imaginable.

By the way, how did the SPL shoot itself in the foot by punishing The Huns? Did you expect them to let them off with cheating? It's probably the most honest and admirable thing they have ever done.

That's nonsense in relation to Celtic.  Mowbray was in charge of Celtic for most of the 2009/2010 season and we were crap.  I'd run through the team but it would make me cry.

A bit like {insert name of Rangers attacker here}

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 12:40 pm

McLaren wrote:The emancipation of Football fans and brexiteers, the great civil righthts battle of our generation.

Hurts when an accusation has some bite, doesn't it? OK
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Post by wiretapper on Thu 11 Jul 2019, 4:07 pm

What a difference Jason Roy makes Very Happy

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Post by super_realist on Fri 12 Jul 2019, 8:03 am

Roller_Coaster wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.

Wrong, UEFA currently rank the SPL as 20th. (https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2019)
It wasn't just the banana skin in Luxembourg though was it? There was Artmedia Bratislava, Maribor, Malmo and  Legia Warsaw who all inflicted early exits on both Rangers and Celtic. You can go back a little earlier and find some other ones like Basle too. Using Rangers (rightfully) being relegated is just an excuse, the writing was on the wall long before this. The quality of players had been going down for years once TV money started to dry up following the collapse of ON Digital.

You need to face facts. Both Celtic and Rangers are considerably WORSE than 10 years ago, that's not even in dispute, hence the downward spiral. It's a demonstrable fact. There is perhaps 1 or 2 players who MIGHT make it in the Premier League (Tierney for example, maybe Edouard), but even just yesterday, an ex Aberdeen player who is now playing in League 1 said that it was of a comparable standard to the SPL. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a quality league is it?

The SPL and SFA are like the R&A, run by stuffy old farts who will not break with tradition. Scotland will not get any better in the current environment. In my opinion summer football and adopting a more Scandinavian business model would work better. For example Viking Stavanger have a great set up, a fantastic, but moderately sized new stadium (more than sufficient for Scottish clubs), served by a brilliant train and transport system, surrounded and connected to lots of office buildings who make use of the facilities and with lots of nice housing around, built on ground that was doing nothing. A complete regeneration.
Compare that to the grounds of Scottish football, built in the worst parts of each city, poor transport links, no other facilities, ancient, jalopy stadiums for most of the clubs (Hearts, Killie, Celtic and Rangers being the exception) and subject to extremes of weather because they play at the worst times of year.
A massive change from the dumps of Scottish football stadiums. If I was a player of the standard of the SPL, I'd much rather be playing in a stadium like Viking on a late May evening, than freezing my arse off in Hamilton or Inverness on a January Tuesday night. Who wouldn't, not only that but it's better than Scotland in every way imaginable.

By the way, how did the SPL shoot itself in the foot by punishing The Huns? Did you expect them to let them off with cheating? It's probably the most honest and admirable thing they have ever done.

That's nonsense in relation to Celtic.  Mowbray was in charge of Celtic for most of the 2009/2010 season and we were crap.  I'd run through the team but it would make me cry.

A bit like {insert name of Rangers attacker here}

Are you joking? Rangers have won something like 2 games out of the last 15 against Celtic. I'm no Celtic fan, but Rangers are diabolical.

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Post by JAS on Fri 12 Jul 2019, 10:15 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:
super_realist wrote:
kwinigolfer wrote:Wins tonight by Rangers & Celtic, Kilmarnock & Aberdeen up next.
I'm sure there's a long way to go yet, several rounds of competition, but how long before Scottish clubs progress stats to impact their "coefficient"?
Their record, Celtic to some extent excluded, is awful - you'd think it was important enough for Scottish football that the SFA (love that . . . . . . ) would incent the clubs in some meaningful way to take success seriously. As it is, participation in qualifying rounds seems not much more than glorified pre-season training.

Can't see them improving coefficient until they actually reach the competition. If you don't do any better than your previous results you aren't going to improve.

Given that there's 4 rounds for Champions League qualification it seems pretty unlikely that any representative from Scotland is going to regularly make the Champions League proper in future, so expect the coefficient to continue to drop.

I can't seeing any team from Scotland making any progress in Europe unless they switch to summer football like Norway and Sweden where they might be mid way through a season when qualification comes around.
Celtic got dumped out by AEK Athens last year, and I can see something similar happening this year. I would imagine that a Scottish team might qualify for the CL 1 out of every 4 attempts from now on.

Aberdeen and Killie will not make the Europa League proper, and The Huns might make it, but again will not progress beyond the group stages.

I think I read somewhere that Scotland were currently rated 17th (up from 19th the year before - all part of a downward spiral - obviously) and that a similar attainment of the group stages by the old firm this season would more than likely raise them into the top 16 which would take them significantly forward in terms of where their teams come in at in the qualifying stages. Anyway, let’s not count chickens, they need to get there first.
Where they were in terms of European coefficient was a direct result of Rangers not being there for 5 seasons. Yes they banana skinned in Luxembourg 2 seasons ago but I’d suspect that this season they’re more likely to repeat last season than the season before. I’d love to see Killie & Aberdeen make the group stages but I just don’t see it. I think Hearts got to the group stages once when Rangers were absent but apart from that, non Old firm Scottish clubs typically Brexit before the end of the summer holidays.

Wrong, UEFA currently rank the SPL as 20th. (https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/country/#/yr/2019)
It wasn't just the banana skin in Luxembourg though was it? There was Artmedia Bratislava, Maribor, Malmo and  Legia Warsaw who all inflicted early exits on both Rangers and Celtic. You can go back a little earlier and find some other ones like Basle too. Using Rangers (rightfully) being relegated is just an excuse, the writing was on the wall long before this. The quality of players had been going down for years once TV money started to dry up following the collapse of ON Digital.

You need to face facts. Both Celtic and Rangers are considerably WORSE than 10 years ago, that's not even in dispute, hence the downward spiral. It's a demonstrable fact. There is perhaps 1 or 2 players who MIGHT make it in the Premier League (Tierney for example, maybe Edouard), but even just yesterday, an ex Aberdeen player who is now playing in League 1 said that it was of a comparable standard to the SPL. Not exactly a ringing endorsement for a quality league is it?

The SPL and SFA are like the R&A, run by stuffy old farts who will not break with tradition. Scotland will not get any better in the current environment. In my opinion summer football and adopting a more Scandinavian business model would work better. For example Viking Stavanger have a great set up, a fantastic, but moderately sized new stadium (more than sufficient for Scottish clubs), served by a brilliant train and transport system, surrounded and connected to lots of office buildings who make use of the facilities and with lots of nice housing around, built on ground that was doing nothing. A complete regeneration.
Compare that to the grounds of Scottish football, built in the worst parts of each city, poor transport links, no other facilities, ancient, jalopy stadiums for most of the clubs (Hearts, Killie, Celtic and Rangers being the exception) and subject to extremes of weather because they play at the worst times of year.
A massive change from the dumps of Scottish football stadiums. If I was a player of the standard of the SPL, I'd much rather be playing in a stadium like Viking on a late May evening, than freezing my arse off in Hamilton or Inverness on a January Tuesday night. Who wouldn't, not only that but it's better than Scotland in every way imaginable.

By the way, how did the SPL shoot itself in the foot by punishing The Huns? Did you expect them to let them off with cheating? It's probably the most honest and admirable thing they have ever done.

Christ Super it really is tedious trying to debate anything with you. I NEVER at any point said Scottish football isn’t worse now than it was 10 years ago. My assertion was that the downward spiral has bottomed out now that Rangers are back in the top flight and back in Europe. The coefficient took a nosedive between 2012 & 2018 because basically instead of 2 teams accumulating coefficient points you had one. The earning of points wasn’t consistent but by and large up to 2012 group stage football for both was the norm, indeed there were several last 16s. Since 2012 up to last year only one team rather than 2 had any group stage football.

The rights and wrongs of Rangers punishment could be debated as infinitum, the mechanism they used (EBTs) was NOT illegal at the time they were using them and indeed a significant number of premiership clubs were also using them, when HMRC the moved the goalposts, Rangers were pretty much targeted as a test case.
Anyway, they were guilty of breaking league rules and the SFA/SPFL showed great commercial nous (not) with the nature of the punishment.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Sat 13 Jul 2019, 8:57 pm

Everyone knows one...Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread - Page 6 Img_2011

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Post by westisbest on Sun 14 Jul 2019, 8:04 pm

Some end to the cricket World Cup final.

Gripping stuff.

Fair play to England

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 8:35 am

even if they needed an Irish captain to get the job done.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 9:18 am

Collapse2005 wrote:even if they needed an Irish captain to get the job done.
picard
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 10:16 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:even if they needed an Irish captain to get the job done.
picard

picard

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 10:38 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:even if they needed an Irish captain to get the job done.
picard

picard
Impressive. Have to think long about that one?

To be clear, your remark about Morgan is churlish and small-minded. He qualifies to play for a team under the rules as they exist. Jealous? Irish? Pro-Brexit? Jog on...
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 10:42 am

Someone has no sense of humor. That one obviously hurt. Maybe because its true?

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Post by wiretapper on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 10:47 am

westisbest wrote:Some end to the cricket World Cup final.

Gripping stuff.

Fair play to England

It was yes.

Although I have heard some calling it the greatest game of cricket ever and I while I don't agree with that it was certainly one of the greatest endings.

I feel for New Zealand though as those four extras Stokes got on the third last ball when the attempted run out hit off his bat was the flukiest of flukes.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 11:13 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Someone has no sense of humor. That one obviously hurt. Maybe because its true?
Nah. I can just spot a troll when I see one. It's "humour", by the way. Have a nice day.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 11:15 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Someone has no sense of humor. That one obviously hurt. Maybe because its true?
Nah. I can just spot a troll when I see one. It's "humour", by the way. Have a nice day.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 11:32 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Someone has no sense of humor. That one obviously hurt. Maybe because its true?
Nah. I can just spot a troll when I see one. It's "humour", by the way. Have a nice day.

Aah Navy he's dangled a leg and you've taken him down in the box! Skewered Laugh  Laugh

That's old school 606  Laugh

Congrats on the WC win all the same  Bubbly

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Post by Davie on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 11:53 am

Surely more relevant than the captain is the match winning batsman and bowler who I believe are originally from New Zealand and Jamaica respectively? ;-)

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Post by Roller_Coaster on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 3:07 pm

Davie wrote:Surely more relevant than the captain is the match winning batsman and bowler who I believe are originally from New Zealand and Jamaica respectively? ;-)

That's like the old gag

Where do the England team stay when they tour South Africa?

Their mum's.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 5:07 pm

Davie wrote:Surely more relevant than the captain is the match winning batsman and bowler who I believe are originally from New Zealand and Jamaica respectively? ;-)
Laugh Ironic that Stokes was born in NZ, don't you think? Some advantages to 'Empire' then...
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Post by dynamark on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 6:26 pm

Alan Lamb ,Tony Grieg,any Yorkshireman,all honorary Englanders.
Funny we do not hold the same feeling for NZ as Aus forget who was on the radio recently but it was after the Nik Kirios business and asked who would you consider to be unsporting/badboy and he replied Macenroe,Nastase,Maradona,any Australian......

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Post by beninho on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 6:36 pm

Morgan started playing cricket for england because Ireland didn't have a test team, or much of a one day team. No issues with him playing.

Stokes came to England aged 12 and learnt the game here, Jason Roy when he was 10. Archer is a bit dodgy as they changed the rules to get him in, but he does hold a British passport. The rest of the team pure english, I think...actually Tom Curran was in his teens. New zealand had 3 non born players in the squad, not heard much on that tbougj.

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Post by westisbest on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 9:08 pm

Read that Morgan had wanted to play cricket for England when he was around 15. Grew up watching them.
He did play for Ireland for a few years before switching to England.

As an Ireland fan, I would have rather he still played for Ireland.

I can’t think of to many sides in international sport over the years and today that don’t have a few players in the squad who are ‘not from the country they represent’.

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Post by Be_the_ball on Mon 15 Jul 2019, 9:34 pm

We have that many English players in our Football team, we can't really begrudge lending England a cricketer Laugh Laugh Laugh

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