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Post by McLaren on Fri 31 May 2019, 2:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Kwini

It amazes me that a professional footballer can end up one footed. Just practice with your weak foot every day.

I remember spending a summer playing with only my left foot in the garden. Came back next season two footed.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 12:24 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

I am not sure you would like the solution to improving the NHS. It consistently comes out as one of the best per $ health systems in world and therefore the best way to improve it is just to increase its funding.
Cost-effective, yes. Outcomes for patients?
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Post by McLaren on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 12:50 pm

Navy

Outcomes per $ spent. Not sure what else cost effective could be.
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Post by JAS on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 1:30 pm

Meanwhile...getting back to basic principles...

“No society can legitimately call itself civilized if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means.” __Anuerin Bevan

That was the start point and if profit making American healthcare providers come in, that fundamental principle will be blown away forever. Too many people seem to have no grasp whatsoever of how transformational the formation of the NHS actually was. To consign it to American profit making concerns will take our civilised society back DECADES!!

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Post by JAS on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 1:36 pm

Brexit will not in itself finish the Tory party, it just looks very likely to to split it into 2 very different halves. Selling the NHS to Americans however would pretty much obliterate one or both of those remaining halves.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 2:34 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

Outcomes per $ spent. Not sure what else cost effective could be.
Outcomes of the NHS for patients can't be measured per $/£ from the patient's perspective.
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Post by wiretapper on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 2:59 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
wiretapper wrote:During the last Labour governments the NHS's satisfaction and approval ratings were the highest they had ever been. Waiting times were dramatically reduced from where they had been in the 90s and survival rates up then Cameron got into power and his and subsequent governments have chipped away at it reducing the quality through chronic under-funding however despite this, it is still a provider of excellent health care and chance of survival for thousands of people.

Under a US style insurance based system we will have a lot more dead folks and a lot more bankrupt folks and many that are both and the thought of that disgusts me.

What the NHS did for my family and me can not be quantified and will fight to preserve it

Remind me how PFI is benefiting us these days?

We don't pay enough for the service(s) we want/expect. Pretty simple really but apparently suggesting direct tax increases is anathema to any party these days. They really are stupid; they can't put a reasoned, budgeted argument to the electorate and defend it. Utterly useless - the lot of them.

Not well and I agree we don't pay enough and the benefits of paying a bit more are never properly explained.

Personally I would gladly pay more tax to ensure a properly funded NHS

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Post by beninho on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 3:31 pm

Being a liberal centre grounder, I am quite taken with Rory Stewart. No chance he wins though.

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Post by McLaren on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 3:59 pm

Navy

Not sure how else to phrase this for you.

For the amount spent per capita on health care the UK (NHS) has one of the highest standards of health outcomes.
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Post by kwinigolfer on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 3:59 pm

Health care in the US is a racket. If one is fortunate enough to have health insurance paid for by an employer, care can be quite good (unless you want an abortion of course).
But inflated costs are passed along the chain, from the provider, through the company that owns the hospital/facility, to the insurance companies who pay up at the click of a mouse - no pushback whatsoever.
And the pharmaceutical companies are even worse than the insurers.

Unfortunately, those who are most deeply affected, i.e. those with minimal insurance, are impacted the worst but are conned (no new taxes) into voting for the politicians who created the system that screws them in the first place.

Don't go there!

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 4:40 pm

McLaren wrote:Navy

Not sure how else to phrase this for you.

For the amount spent per capita on health care the UK (NHS) has one of the highest standards of health outcomes.
I know that, but you need to think. Let's take a cancer patient - they don't give a schidt if the NHS is best value for money; they want a cure/remission and damn the cost. If the % cure/remission rates are better elsewhere, the NHS isn't as 'good' for them here is it? They're viewing things in terms of absolute outcomes; not bang for buck.
I get that money/economics of healthcare is an issue in the wider sense, but what you're pushing is the beancounter side of the story.

Try this:

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/nhs-receives-mixed-scorecard-in-major-analysis-of-international-health-systems
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Post by dynamark on Wed 05 Jun 2019, 9:13 pm

Gawd this is getting a bit complex but Ill try.
We are not going to sell the NHS for a tenner to the US.But the the existing NHS is good when you get in but the time taken to get in is dreadful.Ive just done £600 on consultant and steroid injection due to the pain whilst NHS has taken 10 weeks to even get an appointment with a consultant(which will probably be the gent I saw privately)10 weeks for goodness sakes.Nothing to do with budgets or workload just poor admin and organisation.We already do a lot of trade with US on drugs and equipment plus expertise it just may increase a bit.
The TV are disgraceful in not challenging the rubbish being spouted by all manner of folk.
Channel 4 again tonight trying to talk about brexit and tory leaders when the focus is/should be the D Day vets and history.If I go into a shop to buy some chicken I will look at the label and decide if I want to buy it or not.
Wider point I'm sure there must be a better way of funding healthcare part insurance based.we insure our houses,cars,travel and we used to pay NHI.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 8:04 am

superflyweight wrote:

No fan of Corbyn at all, but I'm assuming he was stating his pride at the cultural aspect rather than the religious aspect.  The fact that London is able to appoint a cultural Muslim as mayor should be something that should be celebrated in the same way that Obama being elected as President was celebrated.  It hints at a tolerant and multi-cultural society.  

Have you ever heard Corbyn say he's proud to have a Jew in any position of power? If anyone lacks tolerance and multiculturism surely it's Corbyn isn't it? The trouble with Corbyn is his complete hypocrisy and lack of consistency. Given the historical significance of the date today, you'd think he would be falling over himself to associate himself with WW2 Commemorations, is he? No he usually avoids anything to do with that sort of thing, but has referred to Hamas and the IRA as his friends. The man is vile.


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Post by super_realist on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 8:13 am

JAS wrote:

Last paragraph....wow...just wow!!! Thanks very much for detailing the effect on the NHS over the past 10 years of Tory austerity cuts, pretty much nailed it, well done. There’s always been fat people, smokers and heavy drinkers btw. Actually the past few years has seen a massive decline in smoking in society although hasn’t yet fed through to a lesser burden on healthcare provision.
Don’t disagree on some sort of sugar/dietary tax but the food industry like the pharmaceutical industry is a powerful lobby, not quite as powerful and effective as the American gun lobby but they do hold influence over government. In my view right wing governments and powerful vested interests are natural bedfellows to the detriment of the masses. Left wing governments traditionally try to fight such vested interests on behalf of the people (Blair’s government sadly just didn’t do what it could have done in that respect)

Why are you speaking like an American teenager or bad sitcom?

Yes, SUCCESSIVE governments have failed the NHS, not just the Tories, but we also have to blame the British public for putting undue strain on the service. Everyone is always so quick to blame whatever government is in charge, but no one ever criticises one of the major reasons that the NHS is crumbling and that is the unnecessary strain put on it by a revolting population in Britain which is strangling it with lifestyle related conditions which are easily preventable.

Yes, there's always been fat people and diabetics, but NOTHING like the level we have now. We are almost at American levels of obesity and it's telling on our diabetes levels and what that is doing to the NHS. Diabetes Type 2 has rocketed (type 1 is constant). It costs the NHS 9 BILLION a year, 14% of the NHS budget. That's disgraceful.

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Post by super_realist on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 8:21 am

McLaren wrote:Super

I am not sure you would like the solution to improving the NHS. It consistently comes out as one of the best per $ health systems in world and therefore the best way to improve it is just to increase its funding.

I don't care about £ per health Mac, I care about getting the best results and actually being treated in a timeous fashion. I care about things like relatives with cancer (yes I have them too Beninho) getting as good a recovery rate as those in France or Norway, however the NHS isn't able to do this because so many of the British public treat the NHS as a way excusing themselves from their own personal responsibility.

I agree you should improve the funding, I've never said you shouldn't improve that, but where do you get it? More tax? I paid around 30k in tax last year. I simply think that people ought not to be referring to it as a "crown jewel" and something that is the "envy of the world" when it isn't. Perhaps we as users of the NHS ought to pay for some of it. For example, how much money does the NHS lose through missed appointments? (£216m in England last year apparently). Shouldn't we be paying for our appointments and then have it refunded if we turn up? It's just an idea, but even if it cost 60 million to administer (and I doubt it would) think of what that could do for treatment of certain conditions to have around £150m every single year? Sadly, people like you want it to be free at the point of delivery at all times. Well, you know what they say, if you keep doing the same things the same way and expect different results you are mad. It needs reform, not just more money.

I wouldn't object to an annual NHS insurance subscription for example, for those who earn over a set amount say 25k (so you'd be exempt). The left always tell us that those who can afford to should contribute more to society, so why not suggest something like this? I never hear politicians say how they want to reform the NHS, they always just say "fund more", they never explain how. If I did the same to my golf game, i.e "fund more" but didn't explain where I would get that from or where I would apply it, I could I hope to improve?


Health systems are rated by how well they treat their patients, recovery rates and how quickly you can be seen. That's it.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 8:50 am

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:

Last paragraph....wow...just wow!!! Thanks very much for detailing the effect on the NHS over the past 10 years of Tory austerity cuts, pretty much nailed it, well done. There’s always been fat people, smokers and heavy drinkers btw. Actually the past few years has seen a massive decline in smoking in society although hasn’t yet fed through to a lesser burden on healthcare provision.
Don’t disagree on some sort of sugar/dietary tax but the food industry like the pharmaceutical industry is a powerful lobby, not quite as powerful and effective as the American gun lobby but they do hold influence over government. In my view right wing governments and powerful vested interests are natural bedfellows to the detriment of the masses. Left wing governments traditionally try to fight such vested interests on behalf of the people (Blair’s government sadly just didn’t do what it could have done in that respect)

Why are you speaking like an American teenager or bad sitcom?

Yes, SUCCESSIVE governments have failed the NHS, not just the Tories, but we also have to blame the British public for putting undue strain on the service. Everyone is always so quick to blame whatever government is in charge, but no one ever criticises one of the major reasons that the NHS is crumbling and that is the unnecessary strain put on it by a revolting population in Britain which is strangling it with lifestyle related conditions which are easily preventable.

Yes, there's always been fat people and diabetics, but NOTHING like the level we have now. We are almost at American levels of obesity and it's telling on our diabetes levels and what that is doing to the NHS. Diabetes Type 2 has rocketed (type 1 is constant). It costs the NHS 9 BILLION a year, 14% of the NHS budget. That's disgraceful.
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.
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Post by JAS on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:07 pm

super_realist wrote:
JAS wrote:

Last paragraph....wow...just wow!!! Thanks very much for detailing the effect on the NHS over the past 10 years of Tory austerity cuts, pretty much nailed it, well done. There’s always been fat people, smokers and heavy drinkers btw. Actually the past few years has seen a massive decline in smoking in society although hasn’t yet fed through to a lesser burden on healthcare provision.
Don’t disagree on some sort of sugar/dietary tax but the food industry like the pharmaceutical industry is a powerful lobby, not quite as powerful and effective as the American gun lobby but they do hold influence over government. In my view right wing governments and powerful vested interests are natural bedfellows to the detriment of the masses. Left wing governments traditionally try to fight such vested interests on behalf of the people (Blair’s government sadly just didn’t do what it could have done in that respect)

Why are you speaking like an American teenager or bad sitcom?

Yes, SUCCESSIVE governments have failed the NHS, not just the Tories, but we also have to blame the British public for putting undue strain on the service. Everyone is always so quick to blame whatever government is in charge, but no one ever criticises one of the major reasons that the NHS is crumbling and that is the unnecessary strain put on it by a revolting population in Britain which is strangling it with lifestyle related conditions which are easily preventable.

Yes, there's always been fat people and diabetics, but NOTHING like the level we have now. We are almost at American levels of obesity and it's telling on our diabetes levels and what that is doing to the NHS. Diabetes Type 2 has rocketed (type 1 is constant). It costs the NHS 9 BILLION a year, 14% of the NHS budget. That's disgraceful.

Hard to disagree that there’s a “sofa” culture that simply sits & eats too much, drinks too much and doesn’t exercise enough (it’s a sweeping generalisation but a not an inaccurate one). The drinking element is “taxed in” to an extent so it does make sense to look at an excess sugar tax too.

What is also a factor but hasn’t yet yet mentioned is drug companies taking the complete and utter piss!! Before anyone calls me naive, yes I know drugs are priced to facilitate future R&D of even better drugs but it’s not just that, NHS procurement managers need to be a bit sharper at price negotiation. Then there’s the murkier side, the drug companies pushing GP’s to prescribe their “wonderful” drugs leading to a massive painkiller addiction epidemic.
From personal experience I’ve had various back/neck issues, it would have been dead easy for me to get sucked into that cycle but no... and I accept I may be in a minority here but I’d rather seek out an osteopath or Chiro to sort the root cause rather than take painkillers ad-infinitum to mask the pain. Can't see why that shouldn’t be more the norm than opioid pushing.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:37 pm

Yuuuge problem with opioids here, JAS, some elements of Big Pharma finally being roped into their day in court. Lazy/greedy doctors often just as guilty.
But the pricing of drugs which is passed through by doctors incented to prescribe them unnecessarily is a problem also, especially as the insurance companies seldom push back.

If we (UK) focussed on prevention (agree that targetted consumer taxation is a big part of that) instead of treatment/recovery, we'd all be a lot better off and able to fund the sort of NHS we could be proud of.

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Post by McLaren on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 3:55 pm

Jas

Chiropractors are peddlers of pseudoscience. Using no more science than a palm reader.
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Post by JAS on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 4:17 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

Chiropractors are peddlers of pseudoscience. Using no more science than a palm reader.

Mac, an out of position vertebrae compressing a nerve root causing spasm is real pain and extremely debilitating, subtle manipulation to help the spine back to its default position thus relieving the nerve compression and subsequent spasm is also real relief, nothing pseudo about it. Personally I tend to use a reliable Osteopath when I need to as they have a better overall appreciation (in my view and personal experience) but I have used Chiro’s in the past (their default treatment does tend to be one or several HVTs whereas the Osteo can sometimes deliver the result by gently relaxing the surrounding muscle tissue. Either way the result is the ending of spasm and pain and a return to the normal range of movement.

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Post by JAS on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 4:37 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Yuuuge problem with opioids here, JAS, some elements of Big Pharma finally being roped into their day in court. Lazy/greedy doctors often just as guilty.
But the pricing of drugs which is passed through by doctors incented to prescribe them unnecessarily is a problem also, especially as the insurance companies seldom push back.

If we (UK) focussed on prevention (agree that targetted consumer taxation is a big part of that) instead of treatment/recovery, we'd all be a lot better off and able to fund the sort of NHS we could be proud of.

Indeed Kwini and it’s a big concern that if our NHS is dragged kicking and screaming toward a more American model then the winners will be big Pharma and most certainly not the NHS or its patients.

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Post by dynamark on Thu 06 Jun 2019, 6:03 pm

Absolutely agree with the pay for GP appointment idea .Insurance we pay (NI used to be NHI).
Personal responsibility for health is a big issue -get sick and you get free treatment -and also the benefits culture which essentially means little incentive to get back on the bike.
Maybe an opt out from NI if you take out private insurance ? I'm pretty sure Id have been a lot better off over a lifetime because I have looked after myself for the mostpart.
Problem is that these types of measure are very politically unpopular in a time when the parties are pretty even.Big majority and you can be a bit more adventurous.

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Post by super_realist on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 8:00 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.

It is that easy. People always say they don't have time to cook properly, or take time for exercise, yet how much time do they spend online or in front of the tv or even in bed, especially at the weekend, how many journeys do they take when they could walk or cycle, how often do they take a lift when they could take the stairs, why not get off the bus/tube/train a stop or two early? How much alcohol do they drink when they could just have water, how much junk food do they eat when they could have a piece of fruit? I don't care who you are, everyone has a spare hour in the day, whether that be 30 mins at lunch for a walk, or 30 mins in the evening or whatever. I do not accept the absurd claim that "people don't have time" which fat people often use as an excuse. They seem to find the time to feed their fat faces though. It is THEIR fauly they are fat, no one elses.

We all deserve a blow out now and again, but people use bad food/drink as a lifestyle.

Everyone knows what is good and bad for them, and everyone in the UK has access to a mirror. You can tell easily if you are putting on weight. It's fine if you don't care about your weight, and it's true that a lot of people don't, but why should the NHS bear the burden of it?


Be honest, it's not the availability of cheap, energy dense food that makes people fat it's gluttony, laziness and lack of self respect. All that food is available to people who aren't fat. All that food is available I countries that don't have the problem we have here.

PS, told you all that John Stones wasn't that good.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 8:45 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.

It is that easy. People always say they don't have time to cook properly, or take time for exercise, yet how much time do they spend online or in front of the tv or even in bed, especially at the weekend, how many journeys do they take when they could walk or cycle, how often do they take a lift when they could take the stairs, why not get off the bus/tube/train a stop or two early? How much alcohol do they drink when they could just have water, how much junk food do they eat when they could have a piece of fruit? I don't care who you are, everyone has a spare hour in the day, whether that be 30 mins at lunch for a walk, or 30 mins in the evening or whatever. I do not accept the absurd claim that "people don't have time" which fat people often use as an excuse. They seem to find the time to feed their fat faces though. It is THEIR fauly they are fat, no one elses.

We all deserve a blow out now and again, but people use bad food/drink as a lifestyle.

Everyone knows what is good and bad for them, and everyone in the UK has access to a mirror. You can tell easily if you are putting on weight. It's fine if you don't care about your weight, and it's true that a lot of people don't, but why should the NHS bear the burden of it?


Be honest, it's not the availability of cheap, energy dense food that makes people fat it's gluttony, laziness and lack of self respect. All that food is available to people who aren't fat. All that food is available I countries that don't have the problem we have here.

PS, told you all that John Stones wasn't that good.
You didn't read what I posted did you? Must be nice in your black and white World. Bit like Mac. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother at all.
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Post by McLaren on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 11:41 am

Navy wrote:Must be nice in your black and white World.

Hold Navy, supers world is strictly white.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 12:27 pm

McLaren wrote:
Navy wrote:Must be nice in your black and white World.

Hold Navy, supers world is strictly white.
Unfounded accusations again Mac? Tut tut.
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Post by Davie on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 12:50 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:You didn't read what I posted did you? Must be nice in your black and white World. Bit like Mac. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother at all.

You of all people should know that arguing with Super is like herding cats and he just trots out the same old doggerel year after year. I don't know why you bother either

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Post by super_realist on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 5:39 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.

It is that easy. People always say they don't have time to cook properly, or take time for exercise, yet how much time do they spend online or in front of the tv or even in bed, especially at the weekend, how many journeys do they take when they could walk or cycle, how often do they take a lift when they could take the stairs, why not get off the bus/tube/train a stop or two early? How much alcohol do they drink when they could just have water, how much junk food do they eat when they could have a piece of fruit? I don't care who you are, everyone has a spare hour in the day, whether that be 30 mins at lunch for a walk, or 30 mins in the evening or whatever. I do not accept the absurd claim that "people don't have time" which fat people often use as an excuse. They seem to find the time to feed their fat faces though. It is THEIR fauly they are fat, no one elses.

We all deserve a blow out now and again, but people use bad food/drink as a lifestyle.

Everyone knows what is good and bad for them, and everyone in the UK has access to a mirror. You can tell easily if you are putting on weight. It's fine if you don't care about your weight, and it's true that a lot of people don't, but why should the NHS bear the burden of it?


Be honest, it's not the availability of cheap, energy dense food that makes people fat it's gluttony, laziness and lack of self respect. All that food is available to people who aren't fat. All that food is available I countries that don't have the problem we have here.

PS, told you all that John Stones wasn't that good.
You didn't read what I posted did you? Must be nice in your black and white World. Bit like Mac. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother at all.

I did, you tried to blame or excuse people's fatness on evolution and a dearth of food, sorry, that's like blaming one person for being hirsute as it relates to evolution. You claimed it wasn't that easy to not be fat. I explained precisely how it is.

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Post by dynamark on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 6:21 pm

Stones is and always has been very dodgy.Surprised to hear Southgate making the excuses 'that is how I ask them to play' It was a poor performance with too much cautious play again but in their defence not much of a competition.

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Post by beninho on Fri 07 Jun 2019, 8:20 pm

Fuk off stones is dodgy. I would question knowledge of modern football if anyone thinks playing from the back and taking risks is poor football. Stones made a mistake, he is still the best centre back available.

And good to see realist attention seeking with his downright weird world views, from his make believe castle.

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Post by dynamark on Sat 08 Jun 2019, 8:50 am

Ben not like you. Ive seen him mess up several times with wrong choices,
Unless I'm mistaken we lost 3-1 and gave away 2 goals at the back.There are times to play and times to defend and that's where the decisions were wrong .Maybe Southgate is asking them to do it but the individual experienced player still has to make his decisions.Im not sure Pep even thinks Stones is a first choice player for his club like a few other England picks sadly.
I thought we were pretty poor overall very slow build up play cautious not injecting pace at the right time but hopefully it was an 'on the beach' situation

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 08 Jun 2019, 12:34 pm

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.

It is that easy. People always say they don't have time to cook properly, or take time for exercise, yet how much time do they spend online or in front of the tv or even in bed, especially at the weekend, how many journeys do they take when they could walk or cycle, how often do they take a lift when they could take the stairs, why not get off the bus/tube/train a stop or two early? How much alcohol do they drink when they could just have water, how much junk food do they eat when they could have a piece of fruit? I don't care who you are, everyone has a spare hour in the day, whether that be 30 mins at lunch for a walk, or 30 mins in the evening or whatever. I do not accept the absurd claim that "people don't have time" which fat people often use as an excuse. They seem to find the time to feed their fat faces though. It is THEIR fauly they are fat, no one elses.

We all deserve a blow out now and again, but people use bad food/drink as a lifestyle.

Everyone knows what is good and bad for them, and everyone in the UK has access to a mirror. You can tell easily if you are putting on weight. It's fine if you don't care about your weight, and it's true that a lot of people don't, but why should the NHS bear the burden of it?


Be honest, it's not the availability of cheap, energy dense food that makes people fat it's gluttony, laziness and lack of self respect. All that food is available to people who aren't fat. All that food is available I countries that don't have the problem we have here.

PS, told you all that John Stones wasn't that good.
You didn't read what I posted did you? Must be nice in your black and white World. Bit like Mac. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother at all.

I did, you tried to blame or excuse people's fatness on evolution and a dearth of food, sorry, that's like blaming one person for being hirsute as it relates to evolution. You claimed it wasn't that easy to not be fat. I explained precisely how it is.
No. You explained your view, which is blinkered, black and white, and overly simplistic. My apologies; you know nothing about evolution, biology or physiology so I shouldn't expect you to take that info on board.

In its simplest form, you're correct; it's down to the individual. Like Mac, however, you don't appear to get nuance, or let any contrary information impinge upon your pre-formed ideas.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 08 Jun 2019, 12:35 pm

beninho wrote:Fuk off stones is dodgy. I would question knowledge of modern football if anyone thinks playing from the back and taking risks is poor football. Stones made a mistake, he is still the best centre back  available.

And good to see realist attention seeking with his downright weird world views, from his make believe castle.
Stones looks decent in the outstanding team of the EPL. The odd mistake is OK; he does it far too often.
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Post by beninho on Sat 08 Jun 2019, 5:46 pm

Will we get the same outrage over cocaine gove compared to mojito abbott. Personally I don't really care, but some were really riled about abbott.

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Post by kwinigolfer on Sun 09 Jun 2019, 12:03 am

Shocking to see Justin Edinburgh dead at 49. Some wonderful tributes.

I wonder what the v2606 top ten list of 50+ people that we'd rather see dead instead would look like?
Dick Cheney would head my list, but it's very competitive.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 7:33 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.

It is that easy. People always say they don't have time to cook properly, or take time for exercise, yet how much time do they spend online or in front of the tv or even in bed, especially at the weekend, how many journeys do they take when they could walk or cycle, how often do they take a lift when they could take the stairs, why not get off the bus/tube/train a stop or two early? How much alcohol do they drink when they could just have water, how much junk food do they eat when they could have a piece of fruit? I don't care who you are, everyone has a spare hour in the day, whether that be 30 mins at lunch for a walk, or 30 mins in the evening or whatever. I do not accept the absurd claim that "people don't have time" which fat people often use as an excuse. They seem to find the time to feed their fat faces though. It is THEIR fauly they are fat, no one elses.

We all deserve a blow out now and again, but people use bad food/drink as a lifestyle.

Everyone knows what is good and bad for them, and everyone in the UK has access to a mirror. You can tell easily if you are putting on weight. It's fine if you don't care about your weight, and it's true that a lot of people don't, but why should the NHS bear the burden of it?


Be honest, it's not the availability of cheap, energy dense food that makes people fat it's gluttony, laziness and lack of self respect. All that food is available to people who aren't fat. All that food is available I countries that don't have the problem we have here.

PS, told you all that John Stones wasn't that good.
You didn't read what I posted did you? Must be nice in your black and white World. Bit like Mac. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother at all.

I did, you tried to blame or excuse people's fatness on evolution and a dearth of food, sorry, that's like blaming one person for being hirsute as it relates to evolution. You claimed it wasn't that easy to not be fat. I explained precisely how it is.
No. You explained your view, which is blinkered, black and white, and overly simplistic. My apologies; you know nothing about evolution, biology or physiology so I shouldn't expect you to take that info on board.

In its simplest form, you're correct; it's down to the individual. Like Mac, however, you don't appear to get nuance, or let any contrary information impinge upon your pre-formed ideas.

30-40 years ago, we didn't have anything like the sort of problems with obesity that we have now. To blame it on evolution or physiology is actually laughable.
Finland used to be the fat man of Europe, it changed it's attitude and education and now the UK is the Shane Lowry of Europe.

It's very simple, if you take in more calories than you expend, you put on weight. That's undeniable. If you're so lazy or stupid that you can't see it happening and you end up obese, that's not down to evolution or physiology. It's down to eating too much. If you want to go into issues of "poverty" as a reason for cheap, high calorie uptake then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that peoples fatness is down largely to their own indiscipline and bad choices.

The % of people who put on weight through hormonal issues or thyroid issues is a drop in the ocean compared to the people who are simply happy to be fat, or too lazy to do anything about it. I'm not sure how you can argue with that.

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Post by super_realist on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 7:35 am

kwinigolfer wrote:Shocking to see Justin Edinburgh dead at 49. Some wonderful tributes.

I wonder what the v2606 top ten list of 50+ people that we'd rather see dead instead would look like?
Dick Cheney would head my list, but it's very competitive.

John McDonnel, Jeremey Corbyn, Dianne Abbot, Lorraine Kelly, Heston Blumenthal, The Pope, Nicola Sturgeon...……...the list could go on.

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Post by beninho on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 7:59 am

Tax cuts for the wealthy, abortion to 12 weeks, no deal brexit, anti feminism, anti teaching same sex relationship, hypocritical cocaine user.

This bunch of people standing for next pm are horrendous, apart from Rory. Its pretty scary.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 9:14 am

super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.

It is that easy. People always say they don't have time to cook properly, or take time for exercise, yet how much time do they spend online or in front of the tv or even in bed, especially at the weekend, how many journeys do they take when they could walk or cycle, how often do they take a lift when they could take the stairs, why not get off the bus/tube/train a stop or two early? How much alcohol do they drink when they could just have water, how much junk food do they eat when they could have a piece of fruit? I don't care who you are, everyone has a spare hour in the day, whether that be 30 mins at lunch for a walk, or 30 mins in the evening or whatever. I do not accept the absurd claim that "people don't have time" which fat people often use as an excuse. They seem to find the time to feed their fat faces though. It is THEIR fauly they are fat, no one elses.

We all deserve a blow out now and again, but people use bad food/drink as a lifestyle.

Everyone knows what is good and bad for them, and everyone in the UK has access to a mirror. You can tell easily if you are putting on weight. It's fine if you don't care about your weight, and it's true that a lot of people don't, but why should the NHS bear the burden of it?


Be honest, it's not the availability of cheap, energy dense food that makes people fat it's gluttony, laziness and lack of self respect. All that food is available to people who aren't fat. All that food is available I countries that don't have the problem we have here.

PS, told you all that John Stones wasn't that good.
You didn't read what I posted did you? Must be nice in your black and white World. Bit like Mac. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother at all.

I did, you tried to blame or excuse people's fatness on evolution and a dearth of food, sorry, that's like blaming one person for being hirsute as it relates to evolution. You claimed it wasn't that easy to not be fat. I explained precisely how it is.
No. You explained your view, which is blinkered, black and white, and overly simplistic. My apologies; you know nothing about evolution, biology or physiology so I shouldn't expect you to take that info on board.

In its simplest form, you're correct; it's down to the individual. Like Mac, however, you don't appear to get nuance, or let any contrary information impinge upon your pre-formed ideas.

30-40 years ago, we didn't have anything like the sort of problems with obesity that we have now. To blame it on evolution or physiology is actually laughable.
Finland used to be the fat man of Europe, it changed it's attitude and education and now the UK is the Shane Lowry of Europe.

It's very simple, if you take in more calories than you expend, you put on weight. That's undeniable. If you're so lazy or stupid that you can't see it happening and you end up obese, that's not down to evolution or physiology. It's down to eating too much. If you want to go into issues of "poverty" as a reason for cheap, high calorie uptake then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that peoples fatness is down largely to their own indiscipline and bad choices.

The % of people who put on weight through hormonal issues or thyroid issues is a drop in the ocean compared to the people who are simply happy to be fat, or too lazy to do anything about it. I'm not sure how you can argue with that.
You miss out vital info yet again. 30-40 years ago, we didn't have McDonalds, pizza etc all over the place and the % of household income that's needed to eat very well anywhere near as low as it is now.

What part of the facts about evolution and the lack of a satiety hormone in our physiology passed you by? Or is that an inconvenient issue for your position?

I'm not talking about thyroid or hormonal issues, as you put it; missed the point again. I'm talking about the absolute fact that we're made to eat and there's not a lot biologically that's stopping us.

You're absolutely correct re. calories in vs. calories out. My issue with your position is the absurd black/white nature of it, the fact that you want to ignore biology and, perhaps most obviously, the fact that we have an obesity epidemic. Do you think, given society's (see your own comments) views on it that these people want to be obese? The evidence that it's not easy with masses of cheap, energy dense, food around (and cheap booze) is staring you in the face, but you fail to see it.

Let's leave it there. I don't think I've ever seen any evidence of you changing a position, no matter what anyone else says.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 9:20 am

beninho wrote:Tax cuts for the wealthy, abortion to 12 weeks, no deal brexit, anti feminism, anti teaching same sex relationship, hypocritical cocaine user.

This bunch of people standing for next pm are horrendous, apart from Rory. Its pretty scary.
This is the opium imbibing 'Rory' I assume? Personally, I get Gove's position to some extent. If it was years ago (I'm assuming he hasn't snorted anything for years), when he was a young journalist in London, I'd be surprised if he hadn't. As to hypocrisy (about which you're correct), given cocaine traces are found everywhere - toilets, banknotes, groundwater etc - I don't think a lot of the populace have a lot to crow about. I wonder whom Baroness Warsi is backing? If it's not Gove, her comments are biased and she should STFU.

Rather Gove than Johnson.
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Post by McLaren on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 10:03 am

Navy

You are trying to engage someone who appears to have skipped even high school science in a debate about human physiology, it's not worth it.





On the Tory leadership, I know little about Rory Stewart, can someone set out what his polices are. I of course heard he is against no deal brexit.
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Post by wiretapper on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 10:52 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

You are trying to engage someone who appears to have skipped even high school science in a debate about human physiology, it's not worth it.





On the Tory leadership, I know little about Rory Stewart, can someone set out what his polices are. I of course heard he is against no deal brexit.

He is against a no-deal Brexit which is a saving garce however he has the voting record of a Tory cabinet minister so not really that much different from the rest.

To be honest I couldn't care less who wins it, they're all Tories


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Post by JAS on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 1:02 pm

beninho wrote:Tax cuts for the wealthy, abortion to 12 weeks, no deal brexit, anti feminism, anti teaching same sex relationship, hypocritical cocaine user.

This bunch of people standing for next pm are horrendous, apart from Rory. Its pretty scary.

Aye but it’ll all be ok because whatever hypocrite they choose, they’ll gleefully tell us that it will stop the horribly nasty Corbyn getting into power.

Just to caricature the double standards

“I made a mistake taking a class a drug 20 years ago and should be forgiven now, it was so long ago” Michael Gove
“Jeremy Corbyn spoke with the IRA 30 years ago, he is dangerous” Michael Gove

So...Class A drug taking with all its implications, fine forgive and forget
Trying to hold dialog in a search for peace - traitorous act never to be forgiven.

Odd set of values and priorities but that is the modern day Conservative party.

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Post by beninho on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 1:03 pm

Rory Stuart is a full on tory, eton, army, boy. But the only one who seems to speak a bit of sense, and is looking at the centre rather then the extreme right. I don't want Raab, bojo, mcvey, javid, at all. I would say hunt and Gove are just above that shower.

And Goves, coke use, I dontr give a sht, just the rank hypocrisy when tarring other drug users.

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Post by JAS on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 1:28 pm

beninho wrote:Rory Stuart is a full on tory, eton, army, boy. But the only one who seems to speak a bit of sense, and is looking at the centre rather then the extreme right.  I don't want Raab, bojo, mcvey, javid, at all. I would say hunt and Gove are just above that shower.

And Goves, coke use, I dontr give a sht, just the rank hypocrisy when tarring other drug users.

Trying to look at it objectively (like a cow looking at a range of abattoir tools) Stewart probably is the most plausible. Much more of a thinker, maybe he’s not but that’s how he comes across rather than the rest of the pack of hypocritical Corbyn bashers.

Obviously at this stage they’re making their pitch to MPs, then it will be Tory rank and file members then at some stage down the line it will be the rest of us. Appealing to those three very different very divided constituencies will be like playing Twister on broken glass

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Post by dynamark on Mon 10 Jun 2019, 8:29 pm

Remember this is a campaign for tory members votes nothing to do with reality.
On Kwinis death list( slightly controversial) I would go with Alistair Campbell closely followed by Vanessa Felz .No offence though.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 9:11 am

dynamark wrote:Remember this is a campaign for tory members votes nothing to do with reality.
On Kwinis death list( slightly controversial) I would go with Alistair Campbell closely followed by Vanessa Felz .No offence though.
Campbell? Yeah, could go for that. Nasty, little schidt. Hope he sees David Kelly in his dreams every night. Can add Bliar to that too.
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Post by beninho on Tue 11 Jun 2019, 7:01 pm

Still like Rory Stewart. He is basically arguing for the job next time after some bufoon has fritzed it up. He will win centre ground voters, and thats not good for labour.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 12 Jun 2019, 8:05 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
super_realist wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Just for the record and re. fatties. We evolved in an environment where there was a dearth of food and to stuff ourselves when it was available because it often wasn't. There is no real satiety hormone to tell our physiology to stop making us eat. Yes, many people can use willpower/whatever to lose weight successfully, but it's not as easy as you make out. Cheap, energy-dense food makes it very difficult for many people.

It is that easy. People always say they don't have time to cook properly, or take time for exercise, yet how much time do they spend online or in front of the tv or even in bed, especially at the weekend, how many journeys do they take when they could walk or cycle, how often do they take a lift when they could take the stairs, why not get off the bus/tube/train a stop or two early? How much alcohol do they drink when they could just have water, how much junk food do they eat when they could have a piece of fruit? I don't care who you are, everyone has a spare hour in the day, whether that be 30 mins at lunch for a walk, or 30 mins in the evening or whatever. I do not accept the absurd claim that "people don't have time" which fat people often use as an excuse. They seem to find the time to feed their fat faces though. It is THEIR fauly they are fat, no one elses.

We all deserve a blow out now and again, but people use bad food/drink as a lifestyle.

Everyone knows what is good and bad for them, and everyone in the UK has access to a mirror. You can tell easily if you are putting on weight. It's fine if you don't care about your weight, and it's true that a lot of people don't, but why should the NHS bear the burden of it?


Be honest, it's not the availability of cheap, energy dense food that makes people fat it's gluttony, laziness and lack of self respect. All that food is available to people who aren't fat. All that food is available I countries that don't have the problem we have here.

PS, told you all that John Stones wasn't that good.
You didn't read what I posted did you? Must be nice in your black and white World. Bit like Mac. Sometimes, I wonder why we bother at all.

I did, you tried to blame or excuse people's fatness on evolution and a dearth of food, sorry, that's like blaming one person for being hirsute as it relates to evolution. You claimed it wasn't that easy to not be fat. I explained precisely how it is.
No. You explained your view, which is blinkered, black and white, and overly simplistic. My apologies; you know nothing about evolution, biology or physiology so I shouldn't expect you to take that info on board.

In its simplest form, you're correct; it's down to the individual. Like Mac, however, you don't appear to get nuance, or let any contrary information impinge upon your pre-formed ideas.

30-40 years ago, we didn't have anything like the sort of problems with obesity that we have now. To blame it on evolution or physiology is actually laughable.
Finland used to be the fat man of Europe, it changed it's attitude and education and now the UK is the Shane Lowry of Europe.

It's very simple, if you take in more calories than you expend, you put on weight. That's undeniable. If you're so lazy or stupid that you can't see it happening and you end up obese, that's not down to evolution or physiology. It's down to eating too much. If you want to go into issues of "poverty" as a reason for cheap, high calorie uptake then fine, but it doesn't change the fact that peoples fatness is down largely to their own indiscipline and bad choices.

The % of people who put on weight through hormonal issues or thyroid issues is a drop in the ocean compared to the people who are simply happy to be fat, or too lazy to do anything about it. I'm not sure how you can argue with that.
You miss out vital info yet again. 30-40 years ago, we didn't have McDonalds, pizza etc all over the place and the % of household income that's needed to eat very well anywhere near as low as it is now.

What part of the facts about evolution and the lack of a satiety hormone in our physiology passed you by? Or is that an inconvenient issue for your position?

I'm not talking about thyroid or hormonal issues, as you put it; missed the point again. I'm talking about the absolute fact that we're made to eat and there's not a lot biologically that's stopping us.

You're absolutely correct re. calories in vs. calories out. My issue with your position is the absurd black/white nature of it, the fact that you want to ignore biology and, perhaps most obviously, the fact that we have an obesity epidemic. Do you think, given society's (see your own comments) views on it that these people want to be obese? The evidence that it's not easy with masses of cheap, energy dense, food around (and cheap booze) is staring you in the face, but you fail to see it.

Let's leave it there. I don't think I've ever seen any evidence of you changing a position, no matter what anyone else says.

If we didn't have McDonalds, Pizza Hut etc then we can stop talking about evolution as a cause for fatness then can't we. By the way, they also now have McDonalds etc in places where they don't have an obesity problem. I was in Norway 2 weeks ago, 3-4 such places in a pretty small town, but unlike the UK, people actually get outside and do exercise. So they show that having a profusion of fast food outlets doesn't make it hard to not be obese.

I'm presuming that I (and Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark) etc lack the same "hormone" (if it's even a hormone) that tells me I'm full. Yet I'm not obese, nor do I have the inclination to eat everything I see as if we'd just come out of rationing.


We evolved to be hunter/gatherers too, but I don't stalk a deer on my way home from work. Stop trying to make excuses for people's grotesque weight. There are dozens of countries around the world with the same access to bad food as we have but who don't share the same obesity problems.

Are you really suggesting that the UK wants to be obese? Ha ha ha. People are simply too lazy to do anything about it. Granted, I think a lot of people don't give a toss, but I seriously haven't seen any suggestion or evidence that most people like being fat.

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Post by super_realist on Wed 12 Jun 2019, 8:07 am

McLaren wrote:Navy

You are trying to engage someone who appears to have skipped even high school science in a debate about human physiology, it's not worth it.





On the Tory leadership, I know little about Rory Stewart, can someone set out what his polices are. I of course heard he is against no deal brexit.

Mac, why do you insist on these absurd Americanisms?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 12 Jun 2019, 9:15 am

super_realist wrote:If we didn't have McDonalds, Pizza Hut etc then we can stop talking about evolution as a cause for fatness then can't we1. By the way, they also now have McDonalds etc in places where they don't have an obesity problem. I was in Norway 2 weeks ago, 3-4 such places in a pretty small town, but unlike the UK, people actually get outside and do exercise. So they show that having a profusion of fast food outlets doesn't make it hard to not be obese.

I'm presuming that I (and Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Denmark) etc lack the same "hormone" (if it's even a hormone) that tells me I'm full. Yet I'm not obese, nor do I have the inclination to eat everything I see as if we'd just come out of rationing.2

We evolved to be hunter/gatherers too, but I don't stalk a deer on my way home from work. Stop trying to make excuses for people's grotesque weight. There are dozens of countries around the world with the same access to bad food as we have but who don't share the same obesity problems.

Are you really suggesting that the UK wants to be obese?3 Ha ha ha. People are simply too lazy to do anything about it. Granted, I think a lot of people don't give a toss, but I seriously haven't seen any suggestion or evidence that most people like being fat.
1Laugh Hear that? That's the sound of the point you've missed whistling over your head, yet again.
2You do know something about populations don't you and the fact that not everyone is the same? You have heard of, say, NICE where medicine is concerned, haven't you?
3picard Did you read what I wrote? Or is it as I suspect, that you have pre-formed opinions and either ignore that which doesn't fit them, or are simply selectively blind to them? I said that there's no way people want to be obese, especially when they're the targets of the sorts of comment you routinely make.

You have your views, and the rest of us have other views. As I said, let's leave it and move on...
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