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Post by the-goon on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:20 am

There will always be good reason to discuss the influence and the effects of corporate money input sport.

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Post by Kingshu on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:27 am

https://www.the42.ie/diageo-paddy-jackson-london-irish-4675771-Jun2019/

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:29 am

the-goon wrote:Sponsors kicking off about Paddy Jackson, a man we know didn't r*** anyone.
It seems that redemption isn't possible to the progressive, corporate feminists. It begs the question, why bother apologise at all?

How do we know that?

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Post by marty2086 on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:38 am

Kingshu wrote:https://www.the42.ie/diageo-paddy-jackson-london-irish-4675771-Jun2019/


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Post by The Great Aukster on Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:51 pm

Kingshu, thanks for Arthur's day. The hypocrisy of Diageo isn't surprising. When you're literally selling poison, hiding it in a moral wrapper is a logical step.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:58 am

I would have much more time for the people pursuing Paddy Jackson if they didn't also seem to be the same people who think Julian Assange is some sort of hero.
Paddy Jackson = #Ibelieveher
Julian Assange = She's lying on behalf of the US state who want Sweden to extradite him.
Solidarity sisters !

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:26 am

SecretFly wrote:I can see both sides of the debate (Gooseberry's and yours lost)

I think the truth now though is that London Irish is by now just a trademark name that may of may not be vaguely used as a marketing tool to appeal to Irish exiles/Natives with Irish connections fans or might be just more realistically an historic name that's been held onto for simple historic, traditional, nostalgic reasons.  After all, how many Native Americans have played for the Redskins?  Cool

It's an English club and yep, it should seek to mostly serve English interests when it comes to selecting players and potentially taking those players to the levels that might see them play International for their country.


It was a bit of a throwaway comment tbf SF. 
But the reality is that LIrish and the rest no longer really exist either for the members and their local community (Reading??!!) or for the interests of a national representative XV. They are commercial clubs trying to win games and stay financially stable. the best way to do that for many clubs is to employ a lot on non-EQ players and journeymen with little danger of being called up for national sides. 

It is also no guarantee of success though. Irish looked to have built a strong squad last time they came up with a plethora of mid level international signings bolstering the core that had been retained from the 2015 season. It didnt work at all and they got horribly relegated again.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:29 am

marty2086 wrote:
the-goon wrote:Sponsors kicking off about Paddy Jackson, a man we know didn't r*** anyone.
It seems that redemption isn't possible to the progressive, corporate feminists. It begs the question, why bother apologise at all?

How do we know that?

Beacuse hes a white middle aged man like us, and literally no middle aged white man would ever assault a woman right guys?

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:45 am

Irish Londoner wrote:I would have much more time for the people pursuing Paddy Jackson if they didn't also seem to be the same people who think Julian Assange is some sort of hero.
Paddy Jackson = #Ibelieveher
Julian Assange = She's lying on behalf of the US state who want Sweden to extradite him.
Solidarity sisters !

Really? First I heard of it

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:46 am

Gooseberry wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
the-goon wrote:Sponsors kicking off about Paddy Jackson, a man we know didn't r*** anyone.
It seems that redemption isn't possible to the progressive, corporate feminists. It begs the question, why bother apologise at all?

How do we know that?

Beacuse hes a white middle aged man like us, and literally no middle aged white man would ever assault a woman right guys?

Middle aged being over 50 Erm

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:48 am

Very few would and chances are if you are found not guilty of it in court the odds of you doing so decrease even further. Its a case of Diageo looking for free attention as usual. Pretty cynical to prey on an innocent person like that.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:51 am

I think the goon was saying Jackson was legally cleared of the crime of r***.  That means in legal terms that he is what he was before the accusations were made- innocent.  Innocent until proven guilty is how we do it in the west.... mostly.

Don't like the man's chosen lifestyle and that opinion I held well before the accusations appeared about that night - but he was found not guilty of a crime by his peers in a legal setting.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:55 am

How laughable in this crazy censorship age that the word for the crime is banned on social media sites.

God forbid some poor person, man or woman, tries to cry out for help on social media. "The word you choose to cry out is banned. Please choose another".

Mad world.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:03 am

SecretFly wrote:I think the goon was saying Jackson was legally cleared of the crime of r***.  That means in legal terms that he is what he was before the accusations were made- innocent.  Innocent until proven guilty is how we do it in the west.... mostly.

Don't like the man's chosen lifestyle and that opinion I held well before the accusations appeared about that night - but he was found not guilty of a crime by his peers in a legal setting.

100%.

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:04 am

SecretFly wrote:I think the goon was saying Jackson was legally cleared of the crime of r***.  That means in legal terms that he is what he was before the accusations were made- innocent.  Innocent until proven guilty is how we do it in the west.... mostly.

Don't like the man's chosen lifestyle and that opinion I held well before the accusations appeared about that night - but he was found not guilty of a crime by his peers in a legal setting.

Except that under legal terms it's not guilty and nothing else, what others infer from that is their choice

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:13 am

marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I think the goon was saying Jackson was legally cleared of the crime of r***.  That means in legal terms that he is what he was before the accusations were made- innocent.  Innocent until proven guilty is how we do it in the west.... mostly.

Don't like the man's chosen lifestyle and that opinion I held well before the accusations appeared about that night - but he was found not guilty of a crime by his peers in a legal setting.

Except that under legal terms it's not guilty and nothing else, what others infer from that is their choice

Huh?

If by that you mean you're entitled to your opinion that he isn't innocent then yes, I'd defend your right to hold whatever opinion you want - that word again, Censorship. Hate it.

But that was not the point of my post.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:18 am

It goes round and back through the arguments about Folau. It's no longer about the law but about how the behaviour affects reputation. Irish have so weighed it and think it's worth a sponsor thinks it isnt. May eventually affect Irish s decision as well.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:21 am

Just whilst I'm at it.... the Assange allusion.

I think logic allows for normal well rounded people feeling/thinking/believing/having a hunch that one man accused of a specific crime is innocent whilst believing another man accused of the same brand of crime guilty.

I don't think we have to assume all accused men are guilty just because we publically stated an earlier belief that one distinct accused man was guilty.  Circumstances, info and instincts inform opinion.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:23 am

Does no one else find it a little cynical that Diageo have waited until now, a month or so after Jackson signed his contract with LI to raise their concerns?

To me it seems like cast iron case of Diageo attempting to garner as much free attention for themselves through as much virtue signalling as possible. If they had any class they would remain silent on the issue.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:24 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It goes round and back through the arguments about Folau. It's no longer about the law but about how the behaviour affects reputation. Irish have so weighed it and think it's worth a sponsor thinks it isnt. May eventually affect Irish s decision as well.

Behaviour? The only thing he was found guilty of was using choice and perhaps offensive language in a private message. If that's the bar we are now setting half the population should be out of a job.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:24 am

Fully agree SF. Assange is quite clearly guilty of being a xchgrew ergfdbg ghing cdswekjfg.

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Post by Rinsure on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:25 am

So I think Deageo are the second sponsor to review their position / pull out regarding Jackson's signing. I read that Cash Convertors have also pulled sponsorship.

I'm not sure what value that has to the club, but if it proves to be the start of a chain reaction, then it could prove a problem for Irish.

He's an objectionable person, but he was found innocent. There were similar issues about that footballer who served his sentence, and was re-signed (Karl something, Sheff Utd?? Might be mis-remembering). Rightly or wrongly, there is nothing to stop him playing for whomever he likes.


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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:26 am

LondonTiger wrote:Fully agree SF. Assange is quite clearly guilty of being a xchgrew ergfdbg ghing cdswekjfg.

The new libel filter comes into play Very Happy

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:31 am

Rinsure wrote:So I think Deageo are the second sponsor to review their position / pull out regarding Jackson's signing. I read that Cash Convertors have also pulled sponsorship.

I'm not sure what value that has to the club, but if it proves to be the start of a chain reaction, then it could prove a problem for Irish.

He's an objectionable person, but he was found innocent. There were similar issues about that footballer who served his sentence, and was re-signed (Karl something, Sheff Utd?? Might be mis-remembering). Rightly or wrongly, there is nothing to stop him playing for whomever he likes.

Ched Evans? If so that was a fairly different case altogether.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:32 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It goes round and back through the arguments about Folau. It's no longer about the law but about how the behaviour affects reputation. Irish have so weighed it and think it's worth a sponsor thinks it isnt. May eventually affect Irish s decision as well.

Correct. Behaviour does affect reputation - probably more than law, more than criminal convictions. But I'd guess Diageo is more concerned with profit sensitive public opinion than Jackson's behaviour. I'm pretty certain he and his pals aren't the only players who indulge in the hedonistic lifestyle young men with money in their pockets can afford. Jackson's main problem is that it was publicised.




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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:36 am

Pound to a penny a large percentage of top rugby players and footballers have had threesomes. I know a few who definitely have. Is it really that "objectionable" anyway? Is that what people are so offended about?


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Post by Rinsure on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:39 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Rinsure wrote:So I think Deageo are the second sponsor to review their position / pull out regarding Jackson's signing. I read that Cash Convertors have also pulled sponsorship.

I'm not sure what value that has to the club, but if it proves to be the start of a chain reaction, then it could prove a problem for Irish.

He's an objectionable person, but he was found innocent. There were similar issues about that footballer who served his sentence, and was re-signed (Karl something, Sheff Utd?? Might be mis-remembering). Rightly or wrongly, there is nothing to stop him playing for whomever he likes.

Ched Evans? If so that was a fairly different case altogether.

Yeah, that was the guy, and you're right - having just wikipedia'd it.

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:43 am

SecretFly wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I think the goon was saying Jackson was legally cleared of the crime of r***.  That means in legal terms that he is what he was before the accusations were made- innocent.  Innocent until proven guilty is how we do it in the west.... mostly.

Don't like the man's chosen lifestyle and that opinion I held well before the accusations appeared about that night - but he was found not guilty of a crime by his peers in a legal setting.

Except that under legal terms it's not guilty and nothing else, what others infer from that is their choice

Huh?

If by that you mean you're entitled to your opinion that he isn't innocent then yes, I'd defend your right to hold whatever opinion you want - that word again, Censorship.  Hate it.

But that was not the point of my post.  

Your point was he is legally innocent, that's wrong as the law doesn't have such a mechanism under law, outside of Scotland, though individual judges can make such declarations when offering judgement

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:47 am

Your point Marty seems to be he is guilty which is even harder to justify.

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Post by marty2086 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:53 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Your point Marty seems to be he is guilty which is even harder to justify.

That's only my point if you struggle with reading

My point is that claiming he is innocent based on the verdict is wrong, the only people who know that were present in that room all we know is that he was found not guilty.


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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:54 am

marty2086 wrote:

Your point was he is legally innocent, that's wrong as the law doesn't have such a mechanism under law, outside of Scotland, though individual judges can make such declarations when offering judgement

Was he innocent until proven guilty?  Or was a degree of guilt applied to him (legally) simply on the accusation being made?  Was he innocent (legally speaking) pre-trial?  

Because I'd suggest people being free (backed by vague legalise) to "infer... their choice" on innocence or guilt post-trial, I'd say that's a pretty shoddy legal system.  

Is Jackson guilty of r-a-p-e, as determined by the court?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:01 am

marty2086 wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Your point Marty seems to be he is guilty which is even harder to justify.

That's only my point if you struggle with reading

My point is that claiming he is innocent based on the verdict is wrong, the only people who know that were present in that room all we know is that he was found not guilty.


Im reading between the lines. What do you believe? Innocent or guilty?

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Post by yappysnap on Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:13 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It goes round and back through the arguments about Folau. It's no longer about the law but about how the behaviour affects reputation. Irish have so weighed it and think it's worth a sponsor thinks it isnt. May eventually affect Irish s decision as well.

Behaviour? The only thing he was found guilty of was using choice and perhaps offensive language in a private message. If that's the bar we are now setting half the population should be out of a job.

I dont know. Guilty or not, the way he views and treats women seems to go against the values of a family club and perhaps the sponsors dont like that.

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Post by Pete330v2 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:20 am

yappysnap wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It goes round and back through the arguments about Folau. It's no longer about the law but about how the behaviour affects reputation. Irish have so weighed it and think it's worth a sponsor thinks it isnt. May eventually affect Irish s decision as well.

Behaviour? The only thing he was found guilty of was using choice and perhaps offensive language in a private message. If that's the bar we are now setting half the population should be out of a job.

I dont know. Guilty or not, the way he views and treats women seems to go against the values of a family club and perhaps the sponsors dont like that.

How do you know how he views and treats women?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:32 am

Exactly, he made a derogatory comment in a private WhatsApp group. Its not a crime more so than the folly of youth.

I find it extraordinary that some people think that a dumb comment in a private group should completely determine someone's life, their attitude towards women and right to hold employment. Life simply isn't that black and white.

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Post by Gooseberry on Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:41 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Exactly, he made a derogatory comment in a private WhatsApp group. Its not a crime more so than the folly of youth.

I find it extraordinary that some people think that a dumb comment in a private group should completely determine someone's life, their attitude towards women and right to hold employment. Life simply isn't that black and white.


Dont worry we wont report your views on the England back row to your employer not matter how stupid they are

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:03 am

yappysnap wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It goes round and back through the arguments about Folau. It's no longer about the law but about how the behaviour affects reputation. Irish have so weighed it and think it's worth a sponsor thinks it isnt. May eventually affect Irish s decision as well.

Behaviour? The only thing he was found guilty of was using choice and perhaps offensive language in a private message. If that's the bar we are now setting half the population should be out of a job.

I dont know. Guilty or not, the way he views and treats women seems to go against the values of a family club and perhaps the sponsors dont like that.

I'm playing devil's advocate here to a great extent, particularly as it relates to legal determinations and then any subsequent displays of potential discrimination after such a determination.

So I'll repeat, the way he allegedly views and treats women seems to go against the values of a family club (don't doubt it and rightly so) but it only 'seems' because his lifestyle/attitudes to women went public when he was accused of a serious crime.  
He was cleared - Not Guilty - of that serious crime yet the record of his alleged attitude to women remains in the minds of those that observed the case and evidence presented.  

Who are we to know how other players in the same club or any other club act in their private intimate lives, either in their attitude to women or in actions with women?  We can't know and maybe most of would not want to know.  
So the only reason Diageo and perhaps LI itself have a particular interest in Jackson's attitude to women is when his private thoughts and actions were made public because of a serious accusation made against him.  He was found not guilty in a court of law.

So is Diageo itself guilty of discrimination against a player when most people could bet that more players than he has such a lifestyle and more than he projects a mysoginistic attitude to women in the shadows of their own private circles?  Has Jackson been forced to carry the 'Represents' flag?  Is he simply a Symbol?

Are all players tweets, instagram, Facebook histories combed over with fine teeth to expose all players Diageo might have an issue with?  It would be an invasion of privacy for a sponsor to command such access or indulge in such investigations - yes?  Jackson's private life was exposed by an accusation - an accusation that didn't hold up in court.  To isolate him now suggests that Diageo think or assert that Jackson, his actions and his attitude, are unique.  But I doubt that they are.  They were made public, not by him but as a result of the accusation.  Not Guilty.

There are players that I like and players that I don't like - instinct.  It happens.  We're human.  And Jackson and his pals are not guiltless in their own fall from grace in the eyes of a large section of the public.  They know that they too have made judgements about other people based on what they know about them or how they feel about them.  It might not be fair but if you live the lifestyle and/or type the words, you either pick up extra fans/buddies/groupies or you pick up people who lose faith in you, dislike you, think you an asswhole.  That's the deal we all know about in this life - or should.  Jackson will have to live with the repercussions of the episode.  No court can command people to change their opinion of him.

So I suppose the real question is 'What is fair and unfair?'  How should I know?  I'm just human.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:14 am

I think we need to know Billy Vunipolas view on Jackson before we judge.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:16 am

It could be noted that in cricket there is a similar scenario where evidence came to light in a r@pe trial of similar unsavoury WhatsApp messages between the defendant (found guilty at second trial), a witness (a consensual sexual partner of the victim) and a 3rd player who was not present.

With cricket being lower profile (or perhaps much lower incomes there has not been huge public fuss, but it should be noted that the two innocent (of any crime) players have been palced on a selection black list and cannot be selected for any England teams.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:17 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think we need to know Billy Vunipolas view on Jackson before we judge.

Close. We need to know Diageo's view on Vunipola before we judge....

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:24 am

Presumabling to keep his trap shut.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:38 am

Gooseberry wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Exactly, he made a derogatory comment in a private WhatsApp group. Its not a crime more so than the folly of youth.

I find it extraordinary that some people think that a dumb comment in a private group should completely determine someone's life, their attitude towards women and right to hold employment. Life simply isn't that black and white.


Dont worry we wont report your views on the England back row to your employer not matter how stupid they are

You got me there. What are my views on the England back row?

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:50 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Exactly, he made a derogatory comment in a private WhatsApp group. Its not a crime more so than the folly of youth.

I find it extraordinary that some people think that a dumb comment in a private group should completely determine someone's life, their attitude towards women and right to hold employment. Life simply isn't that black and white.


Dont worry we wont report your views on the England back row to your employer not matter how stupid they are

You got me there. What are my views on the England back row?
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Run

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Post by clivemcl on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:50 am

What a world we live in. A nurse get's named in relation to baby deaths. No charge brought yet, just the public knowledge that she was on duty for most of them. Again, no charges brought and no evidence.

Rightly so, social media is up in arms at the media for naming her with no charges or any evidence and ruining her life.

Paddy Jackson actually goes to court where it is found there is no evidence suggesting his guilt. He is said to be NOT GUILTY, and yet the world seemingly want his life to be destroyed regardless.

Sad state of affairs. The vast majority of society flip flop on their morals about a hundred times every day. Hypocrisy has never been so rife.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:51 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Exactly, he made a derogatory comment in a private WhatsApp group. Its not a crime more so than the folly of youth.

I find it extraordinary that some people think that a dumb comment in a private group should completely determine someone's life, their attitude towards women and right to hold employment. Life simply isn't that black and white.


Dont worry we wont report your views on the England back row to your employer not matter how stupid they are

You got me there. What are my views on the England back row?
warning warning warning

We have agreed not to discuss those views.


Run

Ok but for the avoidance of any doubt I'm a fan.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:53 am

clivemcl wrote:What a world we live in. A nurse get's named in relation to baby deaths. No charge brought yet, just the public knowledge that she was on duty for most of them. Again, no charges brought and no evidence.

Rightly so, social media is up in arms at the media for naming her with no charges or any evidence and ruining her life.

Paddy Jackson actually goes to court where it is found there is no evidence suggesting his guilt. He is said to be NOT GUILTY, and yet the world seemingly want his life to be destroyed regardless.

Sad state of affairs. The vast majority of society flip flop on their morals about a hundred times every day. Hypocrisy has never been so rife.

I agree, some people instinctively want their fix of victimhood and Jackson perfectly fits the mould of boogie man for them.

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Post by clivemcl on Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:54 am

For those non ulster fans referencing the Whatsapp chat. Worth noting that Craig Gilroy said probably the worst of the Ulster players in that whatsapp but somehow escaped the media wrath and well... as we all know.... as long as there's no social media stink, the supposed moral and ethical stance of the clubs and sponsors apparently goes out the window. It's all business and money.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:01 am

Life just ain't fair.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:02 am

clivemcl wrote:For those non ulster fans referencing the Whatsapp chat. Worth noting that Craig Gilroy said probably the worst of the Ulster players in that whatsapp but somehow escaped the media wrath and well... as we all know.... as long as there's no social media stink, the supposed moral and ethical stance of the clubs and sponsors apparently goes out the window. It's all business and money.

Exactly.

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Post by Heaf on Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:48 am

Rinsure wrote:So I think Deageo are the second sponsor to review their position / pull out regarding Jackson's signing. I read that Cash Convertors have also pulled sponsorship.

I'm not sure what value that has to the club, but if it proves to be the start of a chain reaction, then it could prove a problem for Irish.

He's an objectionable person, but he was found innocent. There were similar issues about that footballer who served his sentence, and was re-signed (Karl something, Sheff Utd?? Might be mis-remembering). Rightly or wrongly, there is nothing to stop him playing for whomever he likes.

Apparently Cash Converters and LI ended the arrangement BEFORE any signings were announced, so they look like they are making a cynical attempt to 'cash-in' on the story - bit like their business model really, taking advantage of others' misfortune ...

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