More young Welsh talent poached by rich English clubs

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:09 am

How long can we sustain this ? Not only are we losing established players to clubs from other leagues, but now we seem to be losing a lot of our youngsters as well. Wales props Sam Wainwright and Rhys Carre have been poached by Saracens, and now Christ Tshiunza is off to Exeter.

A question I would like to ask is, are the regions doing enough to keep these players in Wales ?

Another question I would like to ask is, how are these young players being tempted away from Wales ? Are the English clubs offering more money ?

This is after Glanmor Griffiths waded into the WRU and the regions demanding what is happening to the £32 million that is being spent by the WRU on the four pro sides in Wales whilst the rest of the 320 clubs had £9.1 million to share between them.

Are the regions to be blamed for the drain of young Welsh talent from their academies ? Do the WRU need to do more to fight off the vultures the Gallagher Premiership ?

I find the fact that players at the age of 18 to 21 are choosing to jump ship at such a young age quite alarming, no doubt some of our more vocal Dragons fans on here will come and put me right Rolling Eyes

But the fact that we are losing these players should start alarm bell ringing. The Welsh regions cannot compete as it is, for various reasons, and losing promising young talent will not help.

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:44 am

Dowlais wrote:How long can we sustain this ? Not only are we losing established players to clubs from other leagues, but now we seem to be losing a lot of our youngsters as well. Wales props Sam Wainwright and Rhys Carre have been poached by Saracens, and now Christ Tshiunza is off to Exeter.  

A question I would like to ask is, are the regions doing enough to keep these players in Wales ?

Another question I would like to ask is, how are these young players being tempted away from Wales ? Are the English clubs offering more money ?

I guessed this was coming. As a bit of balance, why not praise teams for bringing in Welsh qualified players. Dragons have brought in one from England. I don't know about the other two, but Rhys Carre has said it was due to the uncertainty of Project Reset, didn't he? So then you can't really blame Cardiff for not being able to re-sign him when they don't know what they're working with. Are they Wales props though, or Welsh qualified?

Dowlais wrote:This is after Glanmor Griffiths waded into the WRU and the regions demanding what is happening to the £32 million that is being spent by the WRU on the four pro sides in Wales whilst the rest of the 320 clubs had £9.1 million to share between them.

Isn't that the same Glanmor Griffiths who turned down an Anglo Welsh league and partly responsible for setting up the bigger repayments for the stadium instead of funding Welsh rugby? Hardly an opinion worth paying attention to, unless you have a certain agenda.

Dowlais wrote:Are the regions to be blamed for the drain of young Welsh talent from their academies ? Do the WRU need to do more to fight off the vultures the Gallagher Premiership ?

I find the fact that players at the age of 18 to 21 are choosing to jump ship at such a young age quite alarming, no doubt some of our more vocal Dragons fans on here will come and put me right Rolling Eyes  

But the fact that we are losing these players should start alarm bell ringing. The Welsh regions cannot compete as it is, for various reasons, and losing promising young talent will not help.

Seeing as there's such a drain, what is the percentage of young players leaving Wales in comparison to players staying? For example, a team like Dragons play more than their fair share of academy players. Seems a bit of an unnecessary word to use otherwise, much like using poached in your headline. If you want to use poached, then you've answered your own questions, as the pro teams can't retain players because they have been poached.

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Post by Stone Motif on Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:19 am

Brought back another Welsh Exile in McCarthy from Munster too. Not sure about Cosgrove's ancestry.

O's brought back that no 8.

Any others? Scarlet just made some signings.

The basis of this rant appears to be how come the regions can't sign every single WQ player in the world when their union won't let them give out contracts and there are other clubs out there with much more money.
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Post by formerly known as Sam on Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:50 am

Don't forget Reffell and Costelow have already settled in the Tigers academy having opted to leave Wales based academies early.

The uncertainty over the future and small number of elite teams maybe a factor. If you're a flyhalf or a backrow positions where Wales generally churn out good numbers is it worth staying in Wales where the uncertain future means the regions and the underfunded clubs won't be investing heavily you may be ditched if the academy coach prefers somebody instead of you. Leave to a prem academy team and there's the academy league to play in and most prem teams are happy to keep around 45 academy team players on the books as they don't count towards the salary cap unless they make a certain number of appearances in the first team.

The props leaving can't be a big surprise, Sarries have brought through a number of front row players and will no doubt dual register the players with a championship club (normally Bedford) whilst there's also the A league, a lot of game time at a club reknown for its culture off the field. Similar with the lad heading to Exeter so many taken from the academy and the lower league and developed into internationals (including Francis).

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Post by Stone Motif on Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:11 am

One for a more sensible thread perhaps but who have the Dragons got now who are non-WQ in the squad? The only one with a prayer of first team action is Nansen now Kirchner has apparently been let go. Who else? How Taylor and Tiaan Loots might be WQ by parentage or resi I can't recall, Botica would be surely, but again the latter two are yet more failures to take a good semi pro rugby player and make a full pro out of them, nowhere near first team material.
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Post by RiscaGame on Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:46 am

The pro teams get bashed a lot on here for not competing in Europe, yet articles like this appear, criticising them for letting unproven players go. Are they meant to compete, or just provide an outlet for young and unproven Welsh talent?

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:51 am

Let’s take our high quality national rugby paper today. I’ve seen them tweet about an article with Sam Lewis, asking how he was allowed to leave Welsh rugby. Yet it didn’t mention within it, that he reneged on a deal to go to Dragons. Funny that. It also didn’t talk about the depth at 7 that was around at that time (which has only got better too). How strange.

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Post by RiscaGame on Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:06 am

One more thing Dowlais. I can only assume you’ve read Woolford’s article about losing players today, in your favourite outlet? That must be the only reason why you brought up those specific three names. I’ve just found out about the article by googling Tshiunza. So what do you say about this?

Simon Thomas wrote:Teenage second row Christ Tshiunza was offered the biggest academy contract in Cardiff Blues' history

What more can they do?

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:26 pm

So what are you saying then Risca ?

The regions and the WRU are doing all they can, and they just cannot match what the English clubs are offering ? I can buy that.

Would we now be accusing the Gallagher Prem clubs of poaching ? Again this is something I would say is happening, wouldn't you agree ?

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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:51 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47900332


So according to Mulvihill Cardiff offered Carre double the salary offered by Sarries. Carre seems to have moved because he believes he would develop better at Saracens (plus his statement about insecurity posted above).

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Post by profitius on Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47900332


So according to Mulvihill Cardiff offered Carre double the salary offered by Sarries. Carre seems to have moved because he believes he would develop better at Saracens (plus his statement about insecurity posted above).

Half the salary is the official version anyway...
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Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:04 pm

Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:11 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.

That's probably not only a Blues or even Welsh thing, try going to county selection in certain English counties with kids who've not been to private school, or who come from non-rugby or non-wealthy family backgrounds.

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:22 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.

That's probably not only a Blues or even Welsh thing, try going to county selection in certain English counties with kids who've not been to private school, or who come from non-rugby or non-wealthy family backgrounds.

Yes I get that LI. I really do, but when he was spotted/recommended for the Blues academy it was not for his front row playing abilities, in fact, he never entertained playing front row when he was 16. He only played that position, when the Blues academy asked him to.

He was getting rave reviews at the both clubs he came through for playing on both flanks, 6 & 7. That is how he got into the Blues academy in the first place, he was even excelling at his position in the academy, but then, a certain family member of another kid in the academy, who is a bit of a Cardiff RFC darling, had his kid playing at flanker, and they tried the experiment with my nephew.

He is 18 now, and his club are happy to keep him, in his preferred position, the coaches at his club are livid with how he has been treated, but their hands are tied, never mind, at least he is enjoying playing for his club, which might I add, at the age of 18 have put him into the 1st team, and this is not a lower league club either.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:24 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.

That's probably not only a Blues or even Welsh thing, try going to county selection in certain English counties with kids who've not been to private school, or who come from non-rugby or non-wealthy family backgrounds.

Yes I get that LI. I really do, but when he was spotted/recommended for the Blues academy it was not for his front row playing abilities, in fact, he never entertained playing front row when he was 16. He only played that position, when the Blues academy asked him to.

He was getting rave reviews at the both clubs he came through for playing on both flanks, 6 & 7. That is how he got into the Blues academy in the first place, he was even excelling at his position in the academy, but then, a certain family member of another kid in the academy, who is a bit of a Cardiff RFC darling, had his kid playing at flanker, and they tried the experiment with my nephew.

He is 18 now, and his club are happy to keep him, in his preferred position, the coaches at his club are livid with how he has been treated, but their hands are tied, never mind, at least he is enjoying playing for his club, which might I add, at the age of 18 have put him into the 1st team, and this is not a lower league club either.

Glad that he's not been lost to the sport. Maybe the club could arrange a "friendly" with the Cardiff academy? :-)

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Post by bluestonevedder on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:36 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.

That's probably not only a Blues or even Welsh thing, try going to county selection in certain English counties with kids who've not been to private school, or who come from non-rugby or non-wealthy family backgrounds.

Yes I get that LI. I really do, but when he was spotted/recommended for the Blues academy it was not for his front row playing abilities, in fact, he never entertained playing front row when he was 16. He only played that position, when the Blues academy asked him to.

He was getting rave reviews at the both clubs he came through for playing on both flanks, 6 & 7. That is how he got into the Blues academy in the first place, he was even excelling at his position in the academy, but then, a certain family member of another kid in the academy, who is a bit of a Cardiff RFC darling, had his kid playing at flanker, and they tried the experiment with my nephew.

He is 18 now, and his club are happy to keep him, in his preferred position, the coaches at his club are livid with how he has been treated, but their hands are tied, never mind, at least he is enjoying playing for his club, which might I add, at the age of 18 have put him into the 1st team, and this is not a lower league club either.

That's a really discouraging account of the academy LD. But i'm glad he's back enjoying his rugby again. Any chance he'll be picked up by another pro-club soon?

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Post by LordDowlais on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:42 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:That's a really discouraging account of the academy LD. But i'm glad he's back enjoying his rugby again. Any chance he'll be picked up by another pro-club soon?

That's his ambition, but I reckon he will be one of the really good Welsh Prem players now, he will stick to where he is comfortable, but he is still young, and as he matures, and if he keeps growing, he is already six foot odd at 18, then he might get picked up.

Sadly, the pro game in Wales do not really give chances to players from the semi pro game, even the decent young ones.

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Post by bluestonevedder on Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:48 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:That's a really discouraging account of the academy LD. But i'm glad he's back enjoying his rugby again. Any chance he'll be picked up by another pro-club soon?

That's his ambition, but I reckon he will be one of the really good Welsh Prem players now, he will stick to where he is comfortable, but he is still young, and as he matures, and if he keeps growing, he is already six foot odd at 18, then he might get picked up.

Sadly, the pro game in Wales do not really give chances to players from the semi pro game, even the decent young ones.

Fingers crossed for him. I used to really enjoying watching the Welsh Prem. It's a high standard and there's a few gems on display there week in week out if the pro clubs ever decided to properly tap into it.

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Post by Irish Londoner on Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:56 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:That's a really discouraging account of the academy LD. But i'm glad he's back enjoying his rugby again. Any chance he'll be picked up by another pro-club soon?

That's his ambition, but I reckon he will be one of the really good Welsh Prem players now, he will stick to where he is comfortable, but he is still young, and as he matures, and if he keeps growing, he is already six foot odd at 18, then he might get picked up.

Sadly, the pro game in Wales do not really give chances to players from the semi pro game, even the decent young ones.

If he's 18 is he going to university, quite a few places would be interested in someone with a bit of talent and potential on the field, maybe a Championship club and studying at the Uni? By the time he ends his degree he could be English qualified ? :-) the icons aren't working so runs away anyway.........................

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:19 pm

As long as the players still want to play a internationally for Wales then I’m not overly worried.

In the 60s and 70s a large number of welsh players played in England because their work had taken them to other areas of the Uk. They still turned out for Wales.

Success of the welsh international team is imperative to keeping good players wanting to represent our nation.


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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:43 am

I don’t think we’re short of props at the moment but in a year or 2 we’ll definitely need to add depth there. If these guys get given a shot then I think they should kick on pretty quickly being as it’s Saracens. So this I’m not so concerned about. If the regions had money they should invest in more NWQ players but good ones, that would add short-term depth whilst the academy guys begin a slow transition to pro rugby - every time we rush them they just become injury prone.

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Post by Stone Motif on Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:45 am

LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.
Or, alternatively, he's not very good...
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Post by Stone Motif on Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:47 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Irish Londoner wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.

That's probably not only a Blues or even Welsh thing, try going to county selection in certain English counties with kids who've not been to private school, or who come from non-rugby or non-wealthy family backgrounds.

Yes I get that LI. I really do, but when he was spotted/recommended for the Blues academy it was not for his front row playing abilities, in fact, he never entertained playing front row when he was 16. He only played that position, when the Blues academy asked him to.

He was getting rave reviews at the both clubs he came through for playing on both flanks, 6 & 7. That is how he got into the Blues academy in the first place, he was even excelling at his position in the academy, but then, a certain family member of another kid in the academy, who is a bit of a Cardiff RFC darling, had his kid playing at flanker, and they tried the experiment with my nephew.

He is 18 now, and his club are happy to keep him, in his preferred position, the coaches at his club are livid with how he has been treated, but their hands are tied, never mind, at least he is enjoying playing for his club, which might I add, at the age of 18 have put him into the 1st team, and this is not a lower league club either.

That's a really discouraging account of the academy LD. But i'm glad he's back enjoying his rugby again. Any chance he'll be picked up by another pro-club soon?

Jesus chruat
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Post by Stone Motif on Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:52 am

LordDowlais wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:That's a really discouraging account of the academy LD. But i'm glad he's back enjoying his rugby again. Any chance he'll be picked up by another pro-club soon?

That's his ambition, but I reckon he will be one of the really good Welsh Prem players now, he will stick to where he is comfortable, but he is still young, and as he matures, and if he keeps growing, he is already six foot odd at 18, then he might get picked up.

Sadly, the pro game in Wales do not really give chances to players from the semi pro game, even the decent young ones.
The reality is the regions give plenty of chances by those who are ery good semi pro rugby players but they get found out the minute they need to display an even basic level of athleticism
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Post by Stone Motif on Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:55 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:That's a really discouraging account of the academy LD. But i'm glad he's back enjoying his rugby again. Any chance he'll be picked up by another pro-club soon?

That's his ambition, but I reckon he will be one of the really good Welsh Prem players now, he will stick to where he is comfortable, but he is still young, and as he matures, and if he keeps growing, he is already six foot odd at 18, then he might get picked up.

Sadly, the pro game in Wales do not really give chances to players from the semi pro game, even the decent young ones.

Fingers crossed for him. I used to really enjoying watching the Welsh Prem. It's a high standard and there's a few gems on display there week in week out if the pro clubs ever decided to properly tap into it.

It's so7t standard. Anyone with pro standard ability has come through and is tied into the academy system.
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Post by RiscaGame on Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:13 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.
Or, alternatively, he's not very good...

You never know mind. It depends what club he’s playing for now, which if Dowlais cares to mention, you could maybe criticise. If it’s prem, then you could make a case that he could maybe make the grade. Anything less, then I would assume a tidy player in the lower leagues like that, would be snapped up by a prem team first.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:56 pm

Stoner, comments like that when you don’t even know his nephew. As for the lad Dowlais I would advise him to study hard and go to university where the rugby is of a high standard. Ex-academy boys always get put into the first team and from there he could get noticed.


Last edited by maestegmafia on Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:06 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : No need to insult people MM)

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Post by Stone Motif on Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:34 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Also, might I add, I know what goes on in the Blues academy, my nephew was in there, until his parents pulled him out because of the way they treat these youngsters, it's all about if your face fits these days.

If you have an Influential parent, who's either been in the game, or puts money into the game, then you will be fine, otherwise they will mess you about, put your kids into positions where they are not comfortable, my nephew is over 6ft and is built like a Greek god, he has played in the back row for years at his club and school, but somebody else wanted his position, so they tried turning my nephew into a tight head.

He gave it a go, but when himself and his parents were trying to tell the coaches that he was not comfortable, they were told take it or leave it, so they left it.

He is now back at his club, and enjoying his rugby again.
Or, alternatively, he's not very good...

You never know mind. It depends what club he’s playing for now, which if Dowlais cares to mention, you could maybe criticise. If it’s prem, then you could make a case that he could maybe make the grade. Anything less, then I would assume a tidy player in the lower leagues like that, would be snapped up by a prem team first.
I don't know, you're right. Phil outed him as being in the Blues academy I believe, when Dowlais
said he wasn't.   I do know it's a tough game to play even as an amateur - and an even tougher game to make a living at as a pro. I also know it takes more than being 'built like a Greek god' or you could walk any roider into pro rugby and watch them fly. Some just don't make the grade, as we Dragons fans know better than most.
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Post by mikey_dragon on Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:18 am

Also on the subject of Christ T, as good as Exeter are Cardiff have an excellent record for bringing through talent from their academy. Christ is England and France qualified, so I believe he is going where the money is and will continue to do so. If he’s good then our only chance might be to offer him international rugby before anyone else, plus Tomas Francis having a word.

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Post by quinsforever on Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:10 am

I can see its annoying when young welsh talent moves to play for english clubs. However that's a quality problem to have. I am assuming they would still prefer to play for Wales? if so, you may be losing juniors from your academies, but someone else is training them in their academies, and they will still be eligible to play for Wales.

seems like a win-win as long as the youngsters are committed to Wales in the adult setup if and when they get the opportunity

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Post by LordDowlais on Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:46 am

quinsforever wrote:seems like a win-win as long as the youngsters are committed to Wales in the adult setup if and when they get the opportunity

That's the risk though, we all know how much pressure the English clubs are put under for producing EQ players, and these young kids come under that banner until they are capped, whose to say that these younger players are not also put under pressure to change their allegiance so that the clubs do not get as much agro ?

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Post by mikey_dragon on Wed Jul 03, 2019 2:39 pm

A fair few players in England and Wales are qualified for both so it can be a risk. The Exiles program is very good for Wales, helps us pick up these guys early and that way they know they are in with a shot of pro rugby here.

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Post by Welshmushroom on Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:19 pm

You cant really read to much into this. A lot of these lads are at an age where the decisions are also based around university spaces.

English sides put together very good packages to those youngsters so they don't end up in debt while taking on further education.

In most cases if they actually realize their potential they end up back in Wales.

For me the wider issue here is about restricting the imports allowed to the regions because that does restrict welsh players getting opportunities to develop. How on earth the Scarlets can sign so many is beyond me (currently I am counting 9) although I appreciate a couple of those may qualify on residency soon. Personally I would like to see us adopt a rule no more than 2 in their rosters with maybe 1 project player. That would leave each region having at least 35 welsh qualified players on their rosters. In the long term that would change their current mentality on planning squads for the short term and take a better longer term development pathway out of necessity.

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:17 am

I'm fed up with seeing talented English youngsters run into the ground at academy level and discarded by these systems only to see them replaced them with cheap/foreign alternatives.

So much talent is being wasted and whats worse is that some end up hating the sport.
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Post by maestegmafia on Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:27 am

TightHEAD wrote:I'm fed up with seeing talented English youngsters run into the ground at academy level and discarded by these systems only to see them replaced them with cheap/foreign alternatives.

So much talent is being wasted and whats worse is that some end up hating the sport.

Who specifically are you thinking of as worn out youngsters and cheap imports?

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:19 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I'm fed up with seeing talented English youngsters run into the ground at academy level and discarded by these systems only to see them replaced them with cheap/foreign alternatives.

So much talent is being wasted and whats worse is that some end up hating the sport.

Who specifically are you thinking of as worn out youngsters and cheap imports?

Why are you only questioning my post again?

seems odd, on another crusade?
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:41 pm

TightHEAD wrote:I'm fed up with seeing talented English youngsters run into the ground at academy level and discarded by these systems only to see them replaced them with cheap/foreign alternatives.

So much talent is being wasted and whats worse is that some end up hating the sport.

I think we can all name a plethora of "cheap" journeymen signed by our clubs. Some not so cheap too.

However I am fascinated by your comment about talented youngsters being run into the ground. I would argue that if anything the situation is the opposite and they are very well looked after but many just are not good enough. After all the numbers that enter academies are much higher than we need to replenish the first team squad.

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:I'm fed up with seeing talented English youngsters run into the ground at academy level and discarded by these systems only to see them replaced them with cheap/foreign alternatives.

So much talent is being wasted and whats worse is that some end up hating the sport.

I think we can all name a plethora of "cheap" journeymen signed by our clubs. Some not so cheap too.

However I am fascinated by your comment about talented youngsters being run into the ground. I would argue that if anything the situation is the opposite and they are very well looked after but many just are not good enough. After all the numbers that enter academies are much higher than we need to replenish the first team squad.

I agree

The development of young talent is generally superb these days in all countries. Hence wondering what TH was referring to???

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:45 pm

Closing ranks!

I can assure you they are not very well looked after. Many suffer in silence.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:02 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Closing ranks!

I can assure you they are not very well looked after. Many suffer in silence.

I would love to see any evidence of that. Can you provide any names of people who were burnt out by the academy system? Or will you pull a Donald Trump and ignore the questions and attack the inquisitor?

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:45 pm

Data protection, also it wouldn't be fair on the individuals involved, this is a rather common thing. The biggest crime is that young players end up quitting rugby because of burn out and dashed dreams due to imports.
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Post by LondonTiger on Fri Jul 05, 2019 10:36 pm

TightHEAD wrote:Data protection, also it wouldn't be fair on the individuals involved, this is a rather common thing. The biggest crime is that young players end up quitting rugby because of burn out and dashed dreams due to imports.

So common that I cannot think of a single young player lost to the game due to burn out at academy age or just after. Most academy players will never get senior contracts. Heck many of them do not even get senior academy contracts. This is because at each stage of development (moving from U18s to senior academy, U20s to development, development to senior) players will be cut.

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Post by maestegmafia on Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:21 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:Data protection, also it wouldn't be fair on the individuals involved, this is a rather common thing. The biggest crime is that young players end up quitting rugby because of burn out and dashed dreams due to imports.

So common that I cannot think of a single young player lost to the game due to burn out at academy age or just after. Most academy players will never get senior contracts. Heck many of them do not even get senior academy contracts. This is because at each stage of development (moving from U18s to senior academy, U20s to development, development to senior) players will be cut.

If these players, (whoever they are?) leave the game, Who are the cheap/foreign alternatives that are replacing them? Just looked around a few teams websites and with academy players 99% of them are English. There are a few welsh and Scots players in there..

Who are you referring to?

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Post by TightHEAD on Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:29 pm

There are many layers to our game, I never understand the obsession with only the top layer!

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Post by maestegmafia on Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:23 am

TightHEAD wrote:There are many layers to our game, I never understand the obsession with only the top layer!


Oh I see..!

With the thread being about generally the top tier I think we all assumed that’s what you were referring to.

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Post by LondonTiger on Sat Jul 06, 2019 9:24 am

TightHEAD wrote:There are many layers to our game, I never understand the obsession with only the top layer!


Only the top layer, ie that covered by the Professional Game Board, in England has academies though.

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Post by TightHEAD on Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:17 pm

When youngsters are discarded by academies many are lost to the game and grassroots rugby loses out.
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Post by Brendan on Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:26 am

TightHEAD wrote:When youngsters are discarded by academies many are lost to the game and grassroots rugby loses out.

Simillar thing happens in soccer in Ireland.  People go over to England and don't make it and come home never to play again.  Part is they feel the league of Ireland is below them (or they are worried they aren't good enough).  Having dreamt of being a star they don't see to point of doing it for fun

I would be fairly sure that people who almost make professional struggle to be semi-pro or lower.  Because of how focused they have been growing up, many don't enjoy the game so can't motivate themselves for balancing life and sport

Having been one of the best in their teenagers years in most of the matches they played, it must be hard to go back to the lower leagues to be like everyone else

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Post by profitius on Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:11 am

Everyone is poaching. Wales, Scotland and Ireland poach talent from England.
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Post by Irish Londoner on Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:21 pm

Brendan wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:When youngsters are discarded by academies many are lost to the game and grassroots rugby loses out.

Simillar thing happens in soccer in Ireland.  People go over to England and don't make it and come home never to play again.  Part is they feel the league of Ireland is below them (or they are worried they aren't good enough).  Having dreamt of being a star they don't see to point of doing it for fun

I would be fairly sure that people who almost make professional struggle to be semi-pro or lower.  Because of how focused they have been growing up, many don't enjoy the game so can't motivate themselves for balancing life and sport

Having been one of the best in their teenagers years in most of the matches they played, it must be hard to go back to the lower leagues to be like everyone else

I think that happens everywhere, when I lived in north London, a lot of the boys at my son's school were in the academies of Spurs and Arsenal and the turnover was huge, they'd take in boys as early as 8 or 9 and keep them until they were not "good enough". They'd then be let go and effectively dumped back in the school system and of course the status drop from "Tom's in the Spurs academy (and going to PE classes in their club kit) to being "Tom can you play for the school on Saturday" meant a lot of them dropped out.

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