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Post by carpet baboon on Fri 12 Jul 2019, 12:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Bit early i know.
Will update squads etc once they are announced.
And add the fixtures when I get a spare 10 mins.

Will Addison has been called up to the training squad


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Post by rodders on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 9:08 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
rodders wrote:
ebop wrote:Making a semi is a low bar

Never mind a semi I'd be happy if we won half the warm ups.

Id say we will lose them both in Wales and England but I wouldnt be too concerned if we did.

I have to say England look incredibly powerful, but Wales did a good number on them at the weekend, albeit with a bit of hometown refereeing.

I can see us getting it tough at Twickenham but I think we need to win that final home game against Wales and push them in Cardiff. We have Scotland first up so don't have time to ease ourselves into the competition.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 9:20 am

Yes England do look ridiculously powerful with quite a lot of depth. They are the sort of side that will hammer teams then go off the boil and lose unexpectedly.

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Post by rodders on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 10:10 am

On the plus side Scotland were dreadful against France... I do think we need to ramp things up a bit against England though.

They are going to be very physical and we can't afford to ship a hiding to them.

It's very simple how they play but so effective, they have massive carriers that suck in defenders then incredible pace out wide.

They couldn't adapt to Wales linespeed and kicking game though so it will be interesting to see our tactics.


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Post by SecretFly on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 10:11 am

I don't know if England and Wales talked before their two games but I do know Gatland suggested he's had words with Ireland about what both sides want.  So, to an extent, a conspired set of games as warm-ups seems to be a possibility for the Welsh/Irish encounters anyway.  Yet I also seem to recall that Gatland felt stung the last time he tried to pre-plan friendly game 'type' with Joe before a WC.  Didn't he once suggest that Joe kinda didn't honour the 'agreements' when it came to the actual games?
So Joe.... be careful.  Gats has a long memory.

However, who knows how to read these games if pre-chats happen?  I mean if you had such pre-game chats before 6N or WC, you'd be shouting potential Fix!  You'd certainly be saying any such communications about 'type' of game or 'players involved' was downright wrong considering people bet on these games....I assume as much for the 'friendlies' as the full competition games?

Anyway, I think any bluffing on form or holding off on full intensity has been well and truly exhausted by this Irish side.  They've had their 'tools down' period and it has lasted now since the start of the 6N, and includes their most recent attempt against Italy.  The cranking up (if it's in them) really has to begin in earnest now.  

I don't care how the others play it (Scotland, Wales, England).  Joe Schmidt has to allow these players to assume and build the rhythm and style they would hope to be using in the play off stages of a WC.  Witless, low-dynamic, bang,  bang, banging in the middle of the field won't do it.  They have to expose, practice and play any A game they potentially have in waiting.  It won't be sharp enough when needed if it's not honed through the friendlies. 
I repeat this in the build up to every WC, and Ireland keeps underperforming at these WCs...... chin  Groundhog Day.

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Post by LondonTiger on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 10:12 am

rodders wrote:On the plus side Scotland were dreadful against France... I do think we need to ramp things up a bit against England though.

They are going to be very physical and we can't afford to ship a hiding to them.

It's very simple how they play but so effective, they have massive carriers that suck in defenders then incredible pace out wide.

They couldn't adapt to Wales linespeed and kicking game though so it will be interesting to see our tactics.



We will probably have a less powerful pack against you but a quicker back row and better backs.

I just hope no-one from either side gets an injury that rules them out of the tournament.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 10:39 am

rodders wrote:On the plus side Scotland were dreadful against France... I do think we need to ramp things up a bit against England though.

They are going to be very physical and we can't afford to ship a hiding to them.

It's very simple how they play but so effective, they have massive carriers that suck in defenders then incredible pace out wide.

They couldn't adapt to Wales linespeed and kicking game though so it will be interesting to see our tactics.



Wales do an interesting thing to combat Billy V to stop him getting lots of yards. They let the first guy tackle him and just at the point of contact when Billy V has knocked the tackler back the second Welsh guy has timed his run to perfection and smashes Billy V just at the point in which his momentum has stalled for a second.

If we can find a way to slow down Billy V and avoid elbows itoje's elbows we have a chance.


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Post by rodders on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 10:52 am

Good observation, Billy V is such a big player for England and Sarries - they are like different teams when he isn't there.

England have a lot of big carriers though so putting too much attention on one player is risky.

They got a good turnover on Billy too, AWJ I think it was came in from behind to hold him up.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Mon 19 Aug 2019, 3:49 pm

Yeah for sure there are other players that we need to keep an eye on but I winder has Ireland won v England when Billy V has started? Not often I would say.

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Post by mikey_dragon on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 1:45 am

I hope there hasn’t been another ‘arrangement’. Last time we did that Joe didn’t really pick a 2nd team. Wales back then were garbage when making wholesale changes, which is less so the case now. Having said that we still need to give a few guys game time. I would personally select the following guys to come into the recent starting XV if they’re all available: Samson Lee, Rob Evans, Elliott Dee, Cory Hill, Aaron Shingler, Justin Tipuric, Tomos Williams, Jarrod Evans, Owen Watkin, Owen Lane. On the bench some new guys as well as some of the big guns: Rhys Carre, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Gareth Davies, Dan Biggar. Rest AWJ and maybe select Tipuric as captain.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:17 am

Yes, do rest AWJ. It's time for Wales .... and the rest of us.... to find out just how central a cog AWJ is. Better now than in the middle of a World Cup.

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Post by LondonTiger on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:31 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah for sure there are other players that we need to keep an eye on but I winder has Ireland won v England when Billy V has started? Not often I would say.

Billy has 5 starts against Ireland winning 3 and losing in 2015 and 2017 6Ns. One win as a replacement in the 2015 WC warm-up gives Billy a 67% win ratio over Ireland.

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Post by SecretFly on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:47 am

So there is stone cold proof that Billy should have been locked up for being Religious..... at least until the WC was over......

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 1:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Yeah for sure there are other players that we need to keep an eye on but I winder has Ireland won v England when Billy V has started? Not often I would say.

Billy has 5 starts against Ireland winning 3 and losing in 2015 and 2017 6Ns. One win as a replacement in the 2015 WC warm-up gives Billy a 67% win ratio over Ireland.

Thanks for that, not quite as good as I thought.

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Post by rodders on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 1:50 pm

SecretFly wrote:Yes, do rest AWJ.  It's time for Wales .... and the rest of us.... to find out just how central a cog AWJ is.  Better now than in the middle of a World Cup.

He's in incredible form, seems to be getting better with age. I'd like to see our locks tested against him to be honest.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 2:12 pm

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Yes, do rest AWJ.  It's time for Wales .... and the rest of us.... to find out just how central a cog AWJ is.  Better now than in the middle of a World Cup.

He's in incredible form, seems to be getting better with age. I'd like to see our locks tested against him to be honest.

Yeah me too. His maul defending is much better than the Irish locks'. Likewise England's work at maul defending. I think this is an area we can improve a lot.

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Post by carpet baboon on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 4:16 pm

Backline for Saturday (my guess having seen a couple of pics on the of internet from today's training)

Murray
Bryne
Stockdale
Aki
Ringtones
???? Probably earls
Addison

Forwards

8 big lads

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 4:36 pm

Would be happy with that.

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Post by Pie on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 5:02 pm

I think Ireland may get hammered in these warm ups.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 5:06 pm

They might but I really wouldnt be that bothered if they were...
...as long as they have a good RWC. Warm up games are really just warm up games. Fairly meaningless.

What is your score prediction for Saturday?

There hasnt been a draw since 1968, I see one coming.

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Post by Pie on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 5:07 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:They might but I really wouldnt be that bothered if they were...
...as long as they have a good RWC. Warm up games are really just warm up games. Fairly meaningless.

What is your score prediction for Saturday?

can I wait until I see Irish side....

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 5:29 pm

of course

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 5:44 pm

Fingers crossed Manu doesnt retire any of pur best players this time

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 8:23 pm

carpet baboon wrote:Backline for Saturday (my guess having seen a couple of pics on the of internet from today's training)

Murray
Bryne
Stockdale
Aki
Ringtones
???? Probably earls
Addison

Forwards

8 big lads

Carty will start at 10

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Post by Cyril on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:56 pm

Guns, it was just an unlucky twist that injured Wallace in Tuilagi’s challenge. You make it sound like a cheap shot. It was just a good, hard tackle.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 9:57 pm

Oh look heres Cyril again

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Post by Cyril on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 10:29 pm

Great reply, Guns Wink

I agree that we don’t want any players injured before the RWC, but let’s cut out the snide comments, eh?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 10:30 pm

Dont make promises you dont plan on keeping Cyril.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 10:34 pm

Whats your prediction for Saturday Cyril?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 10:52 pm

Oh, he's off again.

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Post by Cyril on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:04 pm

Prediction?

I’d expect England to beat Ireland at HQ.

Depends on the sides chosen, but I think they will both go pretty strong. England by 10-15.

You?

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Post by Collapse2005 on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:06 pm

first draw in over 50 years

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Post by Cyril on Tue 20 Aug 2019, 11:37 pm

I’d put money on that then. Can’t see it myself.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 8:15 am

Collapse2005 wrote:Fingers crossed Manu doesnt retire any of pur best players this time

(Poster comment from me) - really hope you are not trying to imply any intent or illegality from Manu. To me that comment as stark as you have written it does suggest you believe Manu deliberately injured Wallace.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 8:56 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Fingers crossed Manu doesnt retire any of pur best players this time

(Poster comment from me) - really hope you are not trying to imply any intent or illegality from Manu. To me that comment as stark as you have written it does suggest you believe Manu deliberately injured Wallace.

Ask yourself, is there anything factually incorrect about what I said?

If the answer is no then surely any implications you choose to draw from it are your own.

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Post by eirebilly on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:00 am

Manu's hit on Wallace was fine, it was just an unfortunate bit of timing that Davie had his leg planted at the time of impact from Manu. Nothing untoward or illegal for me, a simple rugby incident.
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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:06 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:Fingers crossed Manu doesnt retire any of pur best players this time

(Poster comment from me) - really hope you are not trying to imply any intent or illegality from Manu. To me that comment as stark as you have written it does suggest you believe Manu deliberately injured Wallace.

Ask yourself, is there anything factually incorrect about what I said?

If the answer is no then surely any implications you choose to draw from it are your own.

As you have refused to answer any direct questions on this, past and present, I disagree that any implication is mine alone. That you choose to namecheck Manu rather than issue a generic "hope no-one is injured" suggests you believe he will be out to get someone. You could come and and say that is not what you mean, or you could choose to continue with obfuscation.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:08 am

I actually haven't been asked my opinion on the tackle LT and haven't given one either. It is factually correct that as a result of a tackle on David Wallace by Manu Tuilagi he had to retire. I hope that doesn't happen again, seems reasonable to me.


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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:09 am

eirebilly wrote:Manu's hit on Wallace was fine, it was just an unfortunate bit of timing that Davie had his leg planted at the time of impact from Manu. Nothing untoward or illegal for me, a simple rugby incident.

Manu was fired up, being desperate to make an impression. Thus it was a massive hit. It was unfortunate and being a warmup perhaps Wallace was not anticipating such a big hit. I have just read so many posts over the years that use this incident as a stick to beat Manu with, and indeed there was an online campaign to get him banned,  that I admit I do get defensive.

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:10 am

Collapse2005 wrote:I actually haven't been asked my opinion on the tackle LT and haven't given one either.
 Pretty sure I questioned you in the past, maybe it was someone else.

Direct question then - do you believe there was anything wrong with that tackle? Wink

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:17 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Collapse2005 wrote:I actually haven't been asked my opinion on the tackle LT and haven't given one either.
 Pretty sure I questioned you in the past, maybe it was someone else.

Direct question then - do you believe there was anything wrong with that tackle? Wink

No not really, I did at the time of watching the match in real time because it looked like it was a clumsy tackle, a bit high and a bit unnecessary in a warm up game. I think Tuilagi was annoyed because Wallace had just run through him for a lot of yards a few phases earlier and seemed a bit unnecessary especially as Wallace was off balance and heading for touch, a fairly straight forward tackle would have resulted in an England lineout. Stuart Barnes called it revenge in his commentary which added to the drama.

The main point I was making was that I don't want any one to get unnecessarily injured. For me these games have only one purpose to be match fit for the RWC.

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Post by rodders on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:46 am

Surely they need to be played in a competitive spirit for them to be fit for purpose. I recall Manu's challenge and don't have any issue with it.

In my opinion the reason these matches present such injury risk is the players are not at peak fitness, they are still in heavy training when they take the field, unlike during the regular season.

With that in mind I expect Ireland to struggle a bit given they are coming off a week warm weather training.

It looks like England are a week ahead or 2 of them preparation wise and we are focusing on the Wales games.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:47 am

What's your prediction for the match Rodders and LT?

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Post by rodders on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:53 am

I predict an England win, probably by 1-2 scores.

For us I'm hoping our set piece goes well, we show a bit of physicality and we can put a few tries on the board.

We can't afford to go into the 2 wales games off a hiding.
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Post by BamBam on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:56 am

I've always felt that warm up games are risky just because there is the chance that one player in a challenge is not going at 100% because he wants to preserve himself for the tournament, while the other is going all out because he wants to prove himself and get selected

Its the player who is going at half speed who is going to come off worse, but its very difficult to say that the other player is wrong for trying to impress

I didn't remember the Manu/Wallace challenge, but as it was before 2011 then that very much fits the mould of one youngster trying to impress vs an old hand who doesn't need to

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Post by LondonTiger on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 9:59 am

I cannot predict these kind of games with any hope of accuracy. Before our first warm up game, when I looked at the lineups I expected Wales to give us an absolute shellacking. We are likely to make significant changes this week so on paper the side will be stronger, but most of them will not have started a match in 4-5 months so will be rusty.

I hope we are able to get the set piece right, sort the issues at the breakdown which went well first game out, but struggled  last time and show a little more of our attacking potential. That is more important than the result - though sort it out and the result should look after itself.

Finally, as I am saying on all these threads, I do not want any injuries to either sides. I want the medics to ere on the side of caution so if in doubt take the player out.

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 10:00 am

rodders wrote:I predict an England win, probably by 1-2 scores.

For us I'm hoping our set piece goes well, we show a bit of physicality and we can put a few tries on the board.

We can't afford to go into the 2 wales games off a hiding.

I dont think a hiding would do us much harm.

My wish list is

For Murrays withered arm to have healed
Carty to start and have a stormer
No injures
Good all round performance

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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 10:08 am

LondonTiger wrote:I cannot predict these kind of games with any hope of accuracy. Before our first warm up game, when I looked at the lineups I expected Wales to give us an absolute shellacking. We are likely to make significant changes this week so on paper the side will be stronger, but most of them will not have started a match in 4-5 months so will be rusty.

I hope we are able to get the set piece right, sort the issues at the breakdown which went well first game out, but struggled  last time and show a little more of our attacking potential. That is more important than the result - though sort it out and the result should look after itself.

Finally, as I am saying on all these threads, I do not want any injuries to either sides. I want the medics to ere on the side of caution so if in doubt take the player out.

I agree with you its almost pointless betting on a result for these games as there is very little at stake, anything could happen. I therefore am going for a draw.

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Post by rodders on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 10:18 am

Collapse2005 wrote:
rodders wrote:I predict an England win, probably by 1-2 scores.

For us I'm hoping our set piece goes well, we show a bit of physicality and we can put a few tries on the board.

We can't afford to go into the 2 wales games off a hiding.

I dont think a hiding would do us much harm.

My wish list is

For Murrays withered arm to have healed
Carty to start and have a stormer
No injures
Good all round performance

Any update on Carbury? Given Cooney's been chopped Carty needs to show he can nail his place kicks.

Aki needs a big game, I don't think it is a given the 3 centres will go and Farrell has put a real marker down against Italy.

I'm hoping Stockdale has a big game, there were just signs towards the end of last season that he was lacking a bit of confidence. I wouldn't mind seeing him at 15 as well as the options behind Kearney aren't great.
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Post by Collapse2005 on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 10:27 am

No its a race against time for Carbery.

Darcy wasn't very impressed with Carbery last weekend

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-glass-quarter-full-or-three-quarters-empty-either-way-i-m-worried-1.3992288

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Post by rodders on Wed 21 Aug 2019, 11:13 am

Collapse2005 wrote:No its a race against time for Carbery.

Darcy wasn't very impressed with Carbery last weekend

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-glass-quarter-full-or-three-quarters-empty-either-way-i-m-worried-1.3992288

Interesting article. I agree with a lot of it but not on Carbury. I think the cross fields kicks are clearly tactic we are trying and for the most part worked well.

I do agree we need to find some more dynamism in our ball carrying and creativity in the outside backs, whether Ringrose alone is the solution I'm not convinced.

I think we need Henshaw to step up and if he can't then Farrell needs to come in at 12.

If Stockdale can't bring his A game as well we are in trouble because the rest of the back 3 don't really pose a lot of strike threat.
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