England vs Ireland, one off Test - thread

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:02 pm

England have announced their squad for the one off test match against Ireland, it is as follows

Joe Root
James Anderson
Moeen Ali
Jonny Bairstow
Stuart Broad
Rory Burns
Sam Curran
Joe Denly
Lewis Gregory
Jack Leach
Jason Roy
Olly Stone
Chris Woakes

Lewis Gregory, Jason Roy & Olly Stone could make debuts.

James Anderson included & Jack Leach returns.

Buttler and Stokes are rested.

Wood & Archer not considered because of injury. Wood out for 4 to 6 weeks.
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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:07 pm

Olly - thanks for the thread and squad details.

No Sibley then. Suggests a top 3 of Burns, Roy and Denly is on the cards at this stage for the first Ashes Test.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:13 pm

Looks a bit bowler heavy and a batsmen short, presumably;

Burns
Roy
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Broad
Anderson

Gregory and Stone both missing out?

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Post by James100 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:15 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Looks a bit bowler heavy and a batsmen short, presumably;

Burns
Roy
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Broad
Anderson

Gregory and Stone both missing out?

My thought too looking at the squad.

Weird to pick so many bowlers instead of having a look at Sibley/Northeast/both

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:25 pm

Interesting that both Moeen and Leach have been named. Small chance they will play both for this game? The lack of Stokes 9 and a replacement bat for Buttler) means Moeen at 6 or higher, so it may be they'll want him to work on his batting confidence here (which is pretty worrying given how awful hes been). Its maybe the most telling aspect of this squad that theyve picked lots of fringe seamers but chosen to leave the batting short. 
Seems they still dont see Tom Curran as a test bowler and Stone is 3rd choice quick. Hes only played 2 first team games since returning from injury, so its quite a lot of faith being placed in him for a possible test debut. 
The top 3, well those choice have been discussed at length. Roy is no surprise. Denly they have chosen to go with consistency in the team, he does need a score though. Im disappointed but not overly surprised to see Sibley left out. 
Root and Bairstow not rested presumably to give the side some kind of credibility as an England Test XI and to limit Irelands chance of ambushing them. 

Something like: 
Burns
Roy
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Curran
Broad
Anderson
Leach

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:29 pm

James100 wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:Looks a bit bowler heavy and a batsmen short, presumably;

Burns
Roy
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Broad
Anderson

Gregory and Stone both missing out?

My thought too looking at the squad.

Weird to pick so many bowlers instead of having a look at Sibley/Northeast/both


This is the short version of my very long post  Whistle

Yes, even more so given that they have Stokes, Archer and Wood sitting out and are unlikely to play 2 spinners against Aus. No reserve batsman, 4 reserve bowlers. Fair enough.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 2:44 pm

I'd have thought they'd play Gregory/Stone instead of Leach personally...something more like;

Burns
Denly
Roy
Root
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Curran
Gregory/Stone
Broad
Anderson

With Wood/Archer not being fit, and clearly major doubts, it makes sense they want to have a look at another few seamers imo.
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Post by robbo277 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:05 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:Looks a bit bowler heavy and a batsmen short, presumably;

Burns
Roy
Denly
Root
Bairstow
Ali
Woakes
Curran
Leach
Broad
Anderson

Gregory and Stone both missing out?

This is what I think, although possibly with Woakes and maybe even Curran batting above Moeen?

It does look short a batsman. Buttler and Stokes will probably return for one of the spinners and one of the seamers, so a lot of competition in that team.

I guess they've settled on their top 3 and aren't changing their minds, so they don't want to put too much pressure on the bats chosen, and also leave Sibley et al to focus on weight of runs for their counties. With the bowlers, some of it might be cover for Anderson and potentially Woakes getting a rest, but they normally pick an extra seam bowler in the 12/13. I don't know if they might be swayed on the pitch or just want someone to bowl in the nets.

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Post by Jetty on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:06 pm

How I see it
1 Burns
2 Roy
3 Denly
4 Joe Root
5 Bairstow
6 Ali
7 Woakes
8 Curran
9 Gregory
10 Broad
11 Anderson

Stone the reserve seamer and Leach if they need 2 spinners.

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Post by Soul Requiem on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:10 pm

The squad only really makes sense if Moeen is used as a batsmen so wouldn't be surprised to see him at 5 with Leach given the primary spinner role, can't see Woakes and/or Curran batting above him otherwise it really is a batsmen short.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:21 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I'd have thought they'd play Gregory/Stone instead of Leach personally...something more like;

Burns
Denly
Roy
Root
Bairstow
Moeen
Woakes
Curran
Gregory/Stone
Broad
Anderson

With Wood/Archer not being fit, and clearly major doubts, it makes sense they want to have a look at another few seamers imo.

Its possible but why bother putting Leach in the squad at all?  5 seamers just means you dont really get a look at any of them. 
Gregory and Stone are pretty much 0% chance for the first ashes test even if Archer and Wood both arent fit (Stokes will be, they need 3 others from the senior 4) 

I understand not picking Sibley for this but what about a mid order bat? Again highly unlikely to play test unless theres an injury but they've basically said noone is breaking into that side except as a cold debutant or being James Vince. It just sits odd with me to spend the time with so many bowlers when we already have more than enough with recent test experience and ignore the batsmen.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:27 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:The squad only really makes sense if Moeen is used as a batsmen so wouldn't be surprised to see him at 5 with Leach given the primary spinner role, can't see Woakes and/or Curran batting above him otherwise it really is a batsmen short.


I agree. Its possible that Moeen is being asked to concentrate on getting his batting right and just to be used as an occasional bowler for this game. When it comes to the Ashes theres 3 possibilities; to stay with Moeen up the order and play Leach, to drop Moeen and play Leach, or to drop Moeen back to 9 and not pick Leach. Pitches could determine which of those options they want to use, but the first requires him to have his batting confidence back. 

Its possible of course that they will play 5 seamers and one of Moeen or Leach here, if they do that it signals that they didnt ever intend to pick either Moeen or Leach for the first Ashes test, so what was the point in bringing them along?

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 4:04 pm

I presume they were gonna name a certain amount of players and can use this time to keep promising ones in and around the squad, whilst looking at them in training and maybe in the game?

If they feel, quite rightly with the fitness issues, they need to look at more seamers, as well as probably thinking they might need a Mo alternative, the squad makes sense

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 4:07 pm

Don't know about Stone or Gregory, but could either bat at 8 in a test?

Broad, Leach, Anderson is a pretty weak 9, 10, 11 and so if you had Woakes and Curran at 6 and 7 and that fifth seamer in at 8, we just feel very light on batting.

We need Moeen in there somewhere, even if it is just at 8 with Woakes, Curran and Moeen playing. 3 x 7 = 6 + 7 + 8 so as long as one of them gets into a partnership with a top order batsman and then shepherds the tail you can add enough late order runs.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 4:10 pm

Gregory could certainly bat 8 in tests imo, 100% at 9 - in fact he'd be quite a handy guy to backup a Woakes, and is rather destructive once in with the bat. Stone less so, more of a Leach type bat
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Post by guildfordbat on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 4:14 pm

robbo277 wrote:Don't know about Stone or Gregory, but could either bat at 8 in a test?

Broad, Leach, Anderson is a pretty weak 9, 10, 11 and so if you had Woakes and Curran at 6 and 7 and that fifth seamer in at 8, we just feel very light on batting.

We need Moeen in there somewhere, even if it is just at 8 with Woakes, Curran and Moeen playing. 3 x 7 = 6 + 7 + 8 so as long as one of them gets into a partnership with a top order batsman and then shepherds the tail you can add enough late order runs.

Hi Robbo - Gregory could bat at 8 and would definitelly be a good number 9. Although he's a bowling all-rounder these days, he was probably more a batting one when playing for and leading the England under 19s almost a decade ago. He has a Championship century and a fifty to his name this season, averaging a shade above 30.

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Post by msp83 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 4:46 pm

I see England is trying out a few new players. Checked out Gregory's stats, can't see a special player there, seems average with ball and handy with bat on the basis of stats and he seems to be around for some time... The cricinfo report on the squad mentions he has had a solid county season this time round, what do you thing has opened for him an opportunity with the test squad.
Jason Roy is set to make his test debut is of course the big news from the announcement. Hope they give him a really long rope even if he doesn't succeed right away. He's not likely to play test cricket in the Alastair Cook mold. With his style of play, thre could be a few early dismissals. But that is not uncharted Terrain for England by any means. But when he comes off, he could win you test matches, and win them quickly. If he's able to average close to 40 eventually, England would have a serious advantage up top.
Wasn't Anderson under some injury cloud? He may have recovered, but why risk him when the Ashes are just round the corner? His body has been throwing in a few objections in recent times, so perhaps they could have rested him...
Would it be a 2 spinner track or Leach is in there covering?

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Post by msp83 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 4:47 pm

And guys, what is the news on Haseeb Hameed? Is he on the way back? If not, that would be a real loss for the game, he looked a seriously good talent... And could be the long term fix at number 3 if Roy clicks at the top.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 4:59 pm

He had a century at the end of last season and one at the start of this which got us excited but sadly has slumped since.
Its unlikely he will be back in the frame for tests anytime soon.

Next two in line are Sibley and Crawley who are both playing Aus A in the lions.

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 5:01 pm

As for the rest msp stop being lazy and read the posts above...its covered there Wink

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 5:35 pm

Hameed is averaging 28 in division 2 of the county game. Better than last year...but I think his county career is hanging by a thread, let alone his england one! Doesn’t even open for Lancs now...
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Post by JDizzle on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 6:21 pm

The Telegraph reporting that both Wood and Archer are nursing side strains. Wood is likely to be out until at least T4, and Archer will miss at least T1 vs Australia. Shame.

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Post by KP_fan on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 6:26 pm

Playing Ireland in seaming conditions before a big series in Eng is a good preparation....that visitiing sides should do.
Gives a full test to iRE & gives more serious practice to visiting sides then playing a county second XI on a flattish pitch
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Post by VTR on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:13 pm

I'm starting a conspiracy theory that Morgan captained Stokes, Buttler, Archer and Wood into the ground in order to benefit his home country in the one-off Test

Joking aside, I just can't get excited about this fixture after the last few weeks. There are fringe picks in there as you used to get a lot vs Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. I can dig out some horrific names, but will just leave it at Chris Schofield

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:41 pm

Yeah, a friend is trying to convince me to go, but I am not sure I feel the drive to.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:43 pm

JDizzle wrote:The Telegraph reporting that both Wood and Archer are nursing side strains. Wood is likely to be out until at least T4, and Archer will miss at least T1 vs Australia. Shame.

It's officially the #summerofWoakes

#ariseSirChris
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:44 pm

I would like to be proven wrong, but this Irish test team is likely the weakest test outfit that England have played since the miserable Bangladesh side of 2005 that toured for a couple of thrashings (perfect preparation that was for McGrath/Warne/Ponting/Gilchrist!).

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Post by VTR on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:49 pm

Well, either them or the 2010/11 Aussies Wink

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Post by Gooseberry on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 8:06 pm

JDizzle wrote:The Telegraph reporting that both Wood and Archer are nursing side strains. Wood is likely to be out until at least T4, and Archer will miss at least T1 vs Australia. Shame.

Still means England have one more first team seamer than they need, without the additional two being tried it here. Or Tom Curran. Or any Overtons.
The loss of Archer and Wood for T1 will only really be a thing if theres not much help off the pitch and raw pace becomes a premium.


As for this test, yeah Ireland are pretty awful. Their non county players does play more first class cricket now they have a sort of proper league, but it doesn't seem the newer generation are as strong as the one that produced the likes of err Joyce, Boyd Rankin and Morgan Whistle Also the internationals have been mucking about in a T20 tri series which isnt ideal prep for a test.
Feels a bit like they missed the boat on getting test status. The Aussies will get their edge honed much more sharply both in quality and intensity playing their second XI.

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Post by robbo277 on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 8:49 pm

Thanks for the info from all those above about Gregory. I'll look out for his batting if he makes the team as well then. I still think he'll miss out, maybe he's a bit of cover if we decide we want to rest Woakes? Even without Wood and Archer's injuries, you'd expect Woakes to start the premier test series at Edgbaston, and they might want to get him through a few net sessions then assess.

I have tickets to the Friday (Day 3) at Lords to see the Ireland game. I went into the ballot for this and the Ashes test and (unsurprisingly) only got this. I've been to Lords once before when England got beaten by Australia by about 300 runs, so not an altogether happy experience. Would be good to see Roy get a bat to see how he goes and Anderson picking up some wickets, if I could pick my ideal day. Bit upset Stokes and Buttler won't be playing, but can't have it all I guess.

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Post by king_carlos on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 12:34 am

BBC Article wrote:England squad for Ireland Test: Joe Root (c), Moeen Ali, James Anderson, Jonny Bairstow (wk), Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Sam Curran, Joe Denly, Lewis Gregory, Jack Leach, Jason Roy, Olly Stone, Chris Woakes.

England squad for pre-Ashes camp: Joe Root (c), Moeen Ali, Jimmy Anderson, Jonny Bairstow (wk), Stuart Broad, Rory Burns, Jos Buttler (wk), Sam Curran, Joe Denly, Lewis Gregory, Jack Leach, Jason Roy, Ben Stokes, Olly Stone, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood.

I'm glad to see all of the players in the squad for the Ireland test named in the pre-Ashes camp.

1.Burns
2.Roy
3.Denly
4.Root (c)
5.Bairstow (wk)
6.Moeen
7.Woakes

That seems pretty set in stone given the 12-man squad selected. The other 4 are harder to call depending on Anderson's fitness and whether Leach is selected as a second spinner.

8.Curran
9.Gregory
10.Broad
11.Leach

I'd probably plump with that if Jimmy isn't 100% fit.

I still think Roy would be a better option at 3 than opening. The messy batting line-ups for England likely to continue though. Bairstow back in the top 5 but with the gloves. Moeen batting top 6 despite averaging barely 30 in tests.

I'm a fan of Denly, especially how he has reinvented his game in the latter stages of his career. His solid technique against he swinging ball makes him a better option in tests than many others tried and discarded. I have to say that having Roy opening then keeping Denly at 3 feels like Denly is just there as a firewall to protect Root in case the openers fall early.

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Post by alfie on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 3:54 am

Guess they want to have a few fringe players either in or with the team so a squad of 13. Batting looks a bit thin...I'd suggest Moeen might be tried at five rather than move the keeper up again ?
They surely don't need five seamers. So I think a couple of them to miss out...if they are all fit Anderson Broad Woakes and Curran play- and still room for Leach.

If Roy is to have any hope of succeeding at the top of the order against Australia he will have to slaughter Ireland's attack , you'd imagine. I still think he is a "hopeful" punt ' based on ODI form and desperation. If they are going to do it though this seems a good time as he should be full of confidence. What do they do if he fails here , I wonder ? Denly and Burns seem to be inked in around him and Jennings is back in the "asian matches only" folder...

All in all I am reasonably happy with this squad.

One question : if Wood is out for six weeks why is he named in the "Pre-Ashes Camp " ? Not going to be running laps etc , is he...

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 7:20 am

Curran batted out the draw with an unbeaten 50. Over 100 runs with the bat in the game in addition to one magic spell with the ball.
I guess hes the spare batsman.

Theres and Ed Smith interview where hes pretty much saying that he wanted to bring Roy into the test side pretty much since he got the selectors job. It was possibly only minor injuries last summer that stopped it happening for the India tests.
Apparently the discussion with Root after that was that a perfect scenario would be post world cup Roy full of confidence transitioning over, rather than trying to slot him in during the winter. Funny how things pan out, but it does feel like the right time now. Doing it before the WC could have been counter productive on both formats, as well as increasing his workload and fatigue. Now theres an extended period without ODIs to allow him to focus solely on adapting to red ball cricket. Hes also at peak form and confidence.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 8:04 am

Roy does have a bit of the "KP 2005" about him...excellent ODI player coming in after a summer of excellent ODI cricket in which he's smashed the Aussies and is full of swagger and confidence...if he can do half as well as KP did in 05 then we're in for a fun time!
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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 8:17 am

KP only averaged 43 in that series, so if Roy does half as well ...he will still be one of the best openers we have had in years.

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Post by VTR on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 8:30 am

If Roy manages to edge a couple of boundaries then get out, that would be a vast improvement on Keaton Jennings :O

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Post by guildfordbat on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 8:34 am

alfie wrote:Guess they want to have a few fringe players either in or with the team so a squad of 13.  Batting looks a bit thin...I'd suggest Moeen might be tried at five rather than move the keeper up again ?
They surely don't need five seamers.  So I think a couple of them to miss out...if they are all fit Anderson Broad Woakes and Curran play- and still room for Leach.

If Roy is to have any hope of succeeding at the top of the order against Australia he will have to slaughter Ireland's attack , you'd imagine.  I still think he is a "hopeful" punt ' based on ODI form and desperation.  If they are going to do it though this seems a good time as he should be full of confidence. What do they do if he fails here , I wonder ?  Denly and Burns seem to be inked in around him and Jennings is back in the "asian matches only" folder...

All in all I am reasonably happy with this squad.

One question :  if Wood is out for six weeks why is he named in the "Pre-Ashes Camp "  ? Not going to be running laps etc , is he...

Hi Alfie - I don't actually think the same about Roy as you there. Roy's style and approach is that he always can get out early and probably more so than other contenders. That could happen against a medium pacer like Murtagh or, if chosen to open the bowling (I wouldn't rule it out), a spinner such as Dockrell or Adair McBrine. If I wanted to pick someone most likely to bat all day against Ireland's bowlers, I would probably opt for Sibley. However, the one with the greater chance of taking on and rapidly profitting (which seems an important element for the selectors) against Test bowlers - whether Ireland's dibbly dobblers and slow men or the far greater quality of Australia with the pace, cunning and guile supplied by Starc, Cummins and Lyon - is Roy. How many opportunities he will need to come off and how many he will be given remains to be seen. However, I would now expect him to start the Ashes series regardless of whether he flops against Ireland.


I was also puzzled by Wood's inclusion in the ''Pre-Ashes Camp''. I can only guess that he is available to attend and that a lot of it is to do with tactical chat and team bonding.


Last edited by guildfordbat on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Got mixed up between paceman Adairand slowie McBrine)

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Post by msp83 on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 2:36 pm

If they pick a player like Roy, they should give him a real proper go. Unless he has an absolute horrer run, he should get the entire summer. If he's doing just about average, give him a winter tour too and then judge. Have a feeling he can crack test cricket with reasonable success if properly managed.

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Post by Gooseberry on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 4:15 pm

I think that's a given MSP. Theres only 5 tests in the summer and everyone tries as an opener has been given at least two series.
Roy is a favourite of the selectors rather than someone picked through a lack of other options, they wont bin him quickly.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 1:21 am

Roy does have a respectable first class record. How he goes against a moving ball will be a interesting to see though.

I expect the early points of his innings to swing from 'edge of the seat' to 'watching from behind the sofa'. The two shots I envisage most there are his IVA Richards impression clip through midwicket from off stump and his off drives on the up. Both are things of beauty when they come off but early doors against Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood and Pattinson there could be some horrible looking play and misses.

My head say he's another very talented lower middle order player shoehorned into a top order position. My heart says he will score some Sehwag on the subcontinent style centuries.

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Post by king_carlos on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 1:22 am

Gooseberry wrote:I think that's a given MSP. Theres only 5 tests in the summer and everyone tries as an opener has been given at least two series.
Roy is a favourite of the selectors rather than someone picked through a lack of other options, they wont bin him quickly.
6 tests total, Goose. Your point still stands though and I expect Roy to be given the summer at the very least. If he really struggles against the new ball I could see him moving to 3 and an opener being brought in before they binned Roy.

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Post by KP_fan on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 8:03 am

It's a 4 day game Shocked
Is it an official test or just a First Class game.
And if half a day is lost to rain......draw becomes a possibility
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 9:01 am

KP_fan wrote:It's a 4 day game Shocked
Is it an official test or just a First Class game.
And if half a day is lost to rain......draw becomes a possibility

Yes, it is still a Test Match, the first four day test match since South Africa played Zimbabwe in 2017.

Should only need three days to decide this one and the weather looks fine overall.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 9:14 am

WTF? That might explain why they only picked bowlers. What a joke.

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Post by KP_fan on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 9:26 am

Duty281 wrote:
KP_fan wrote:It's a 4 day game Shocked
Is it an official test or just a First Class game.
And if half a day is lost to rain......draw becomes a possibility

Yes, it is still a Test Match, the first four day test match since South Africa played Zimbabwe in 2017.

Should only need three days to decide this one and the weather looks fine overall.

as I saw, first day morning half is rain.
But I agree if the make a seaming pitch...the game should be done in 3 days
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Post by robbo277 on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 4:09 pm

Weather looks good from what I've seen - up to 33 degrees on Day 1. Bit of cloud and chances of rain afterwards, but looks like a decent forecast.

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Post by msp83 on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 7:56 pm

They should stop this nonsense of 4 day tests. Didn't like when South Africa tried against Zimbabwe. Don't like it here.
Zimbabwe or Ireland at this stage, may not be lasting 5 days in many test matches. But that is not the point. They need to be given proper opportunities. These sides are not likely to get too many test matches in any case, so whatever they get, should at least be a 5 day game.

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Post by msp83 on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 7:57 pm

The BCCI, which otherwise should have been at the forefront of such bullying nonsense, gave Afghanistan a proper 5 day game! Another matter they got done in 2 days!

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Post by VTR on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 9:28 pm

This is not an easy sell to the public though, so your 5th day would be loss making, if it happened at all. But even the possibility of it would require some planning and costs. I know the ECB are hardly poor, but they will still assess the financial case for each match. It might suck a bit, but I suspect Ireland were offered this or nothing.

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Post by Gooseberry on Fri 19 Jul 2019, 9:58 pm

Maybe they should have reserve day, or just decide it on a super over if its drawn at the end of Day 4

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